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Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Halcyon., Apr 21, 2013.

  1. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,538
    EMPIRE
    StarringBreloomandLucario


    [Youtube]3bwqDiP8BpA[/Youtube]


    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    You see those two Pokémon right there? Lucario and Breloom would never be called obscure Pokémon, but they would definitely be considered two of the top offensive threats in the metagame. The purpose of this team was to focus on making it so that these two Pokémon wreck shop as easily as possible.​

    Teambuilding Process​

    Show Hide

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The team began with these two. They're two of my favorite Pokémon in OU, and I wanted to see if I could create a team that uses both of them well. I know they have some similar counters, though, and knew that it would take good teambuilding to do so.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]

    I added Scizor as a way to deal with things like Celebi and Lati@s, which I knew would cause these two quite a bit of trouble. U-turn would also allow me to switch them in more easily, since neither Lucario nor Breloom has stellar defenses. This, of course, made me quite weak to things like Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Landorus-T. Naturally, a powerful special attacker was in order.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Keldeo provided a strong and reliable way to deal with powerful physical walls like the ones mentioned above. Keldeo also gave me another check to some of the faster threats like Terrakion, Salamence, Volcarona, etc., and appreciated the lack of Celebi that Scizor was ensuring. But things like Skarmory and Dragon types were starting to become issues. So I needed a strong Fire type that can deal with Skarmory...wonder who that could be...

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Heatran seemed to fit the team perfectly. He could set up Stealth Rocks, dealt with Skarmory quite well, and with Air Balloon, became a great check to Dragon types like Salamence, Dragonite, and Salamence with Hidden Power Ice. Heatran was also another good check to Celebi lacking Earth Power, which could have been a problem, otherwise. I also noticed a pretty big Fire weakness, which Heatran sort of alleviated. Finally, I needed something that could take on Landorus, Thundurus-T, and Breloom without being trapped by Tyranitar.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Celebi and Heatran make a great pair, and Celebi with Baton Pass makes an even better partner with Lucario! Celebi also had the ability to paralyze threats on the opponents team that could give me trouble, like Latios and other fast Psychic types. Most importantly, though Celebi gave me a way to deal with Landorus, which otherwise was a huge problem for the team.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Scizor wasn't really helping me as much as I would have liked. It was two slow, and may Celebi/Lati@s run HP Fire to prevent being trapped by him anyway. So I decided that ScarfRachi might make a good replacement for him. It gave me a way to deal with the fast Psychics that give me trouble (like Alakazam).

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Scarf Jirachi has never really worked for me, and this time was no different. I found myself needing a way to deal with Terrakion, as all it would take is one mis-predicted switch of Celebi into an X-Scizor, and everything on my team could be at least 2HKO'd by Scarf Close Combat. Also, though it is embarrassing to admit, Infernape was actually giving my team quite a bit of trouble ._.

    So Landorus-T was my replacement for Jirachi. Landorus-T also had a strong U-turn, but also had Intimidate to deal with things like Terrakion. I started out with a bulky defensive set (with Knock Off, which I highly suggest everyone try, cause it's awesome), but after a while those dumb Psychic types kept getting me again, so I switched it to a Scarf set for that fast U-Turn. Landorus-T became my go-to lead, too.




    The Team
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    An In Depth Look

    NOTE: Orange=Testing Red=Definite change


    [​IMG]

    Breloom @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Seed
    - Focus Punch
    - Spore

    This set is just dumb. It really is absurd how well it works, because, on paper, it wouldn't seem like it would. The idea is that you enter after something has died or on a predicted switch while Celebi BP's (typically from Tyranitar). Then you Spore while the opponent switches into whatever their sleep fodder is. After that, they'll probably switch into something that will counter Breloom. This is typically Latias or Latios. What the opponent probably isn't expecting is the 150 base power STAB Focus Punch waited for them outside that Poké Ball. In case you were wondering, here are some calcs for Breloom's Focus Punch:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 191-225 (63.24 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 211-248 (69.86 - 82.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 182-215 (56.34 - 66.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 211-248 (63.74 - 74.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    All of these are effective OHKO's after Stealth Rock, Focus Punch, and Mach Punch.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 175-207 (49.29 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 200-238 (59.88 - 71.25%) -- guaranteed

    While you can't OHKO these counters, you put a serious dent in them, and almost always force them to waste a turn recovering, which allows me to get a free switch into Landorus-T or Heatran/Keldeo, respectfully. Also, SDef Skarmory has about a 30% chance to be OHKO'd by Focus Punch after Rocks. That calc is my favorite :3

    [​IMG]

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Bullet Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance

    Lucario is the second half of my dynamic duo, and is an absolute monster. There are some who believe that Lucario isn't a powerful sweeper, and to those people, I would say "watch this battle and be amazed. The combination of Celebi luring in Tyranitar and Swords Dance Lucario is a scary one. Lucario is one of the best late-game sweepers out there. With Landorus-T taking care of Terrakion, and Keldeo taking on Landorus-T and Gliscor, Lucario can afford to run Crunch to help deal with my Jellicent issues. The other two moves are pretty standard on Lucario. Close Combat is an absurdly powerful STAB attack, where as +2 priority is something every sweeper wishes they had. Extremespeed allows me to bypass certain threats like Breloom at +2. Lucario also has no real trouble setting up to +2 either, setting up in the face of Choice-locked Terrakion and Tyranitar and proceeding to sweep. If I'm sweeping with anyone on this team, you better bet it's going to be Lucario.

    [​IMG]

    Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 92 Spe / 180 HP / 244 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge
    - [COLOR="Dark Orange"]Knock Off[/COLOR]

    Bulky Landorus-T is just what this team needs. It has great defensive synergy with Heatran and Celebi, giving my frail sweepers the defensive backbone they need. Landorus-T also provides the ability to wall any Terrakion set thanks to it's fantastic typing and even better ability. Being able to provide momentum with U-turn is nothing to scoff at either, since my team needs as much momentum as it can get with the frailty of Breloom and Lucario. Usually I use Landorus-T to play around some of the powerful threats that might otherwise be a problem for my team, such as Terrakion, Lucario, Breloom, Gyarados, and Alakazam. All in all, Landorus-T is one of the most important members of the team, and the bulky set definitely provides necessary defensive presence. Thanks for the suggestion guys! I'm trying out Knock Off as an optio over SR since Heatran usually sets them up more easily, and no one expects Knock Off on the switch. Knocking Off Leftovers, Choice Items, Toxic Orbs, Life Orbs, and the like is incredibly helpful to the rest of the team, which appreciates not having opponents wit boosted moves or increased survivability.

    [​IMG]

    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Secret Sword
    - Icy Wind
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    Keldeo is, in my opinion, the best Scarfer in the OU tier. With STAB Hydro Pump and Secret Sword he can wreak havoc, especially on offensively inclined teams lacking a Scarf base 110. Keldeo deals with many of the defensive threats that my team struggles with, like Gliscor and Landorus-T, and also provides a nice check to Volcarona if it sets up before Rocks are up, since Heatran can only do so much. Being one of the fastest Pokémon in the tier, Keldeo also has the ability to act as a pretty great revenge killer. Keldeo’s set is always troublesome, though. Sometimes I feel like a Specs set would work well here too, but then I would have problems with things like Giga Drain Volcarona, Choice Scarf/DD Salamence, and Scarf Jirachi. Other than that, the specific moves I chose are also semi-problematic. The Great Mighty Doom suggested I use Hidden Power Electric and icy wind over Surf and Hidden Power Ice to better check Gyarados and Jellicent, which are huge pains to my team once Breloom has been taken out of the picture. But with Keldeo's new set, these two aren't nearly as frightening.

    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock

    Heatran is an extremely important member of my team. The ability to absorb Fire type attacks aimed at Celebi, Lucario, and Breloom is invaluable, and with a Flash Fire boost, even things like Rotom-W will think twice about switching in. His Fire STAB is extremely useful, and he acts as my counter to Sun teams. Air Balloon is the item of choice, since it gives me an early game counter to things like Garchomp. I chose a Timid nature to outspeed other Heatran (which I hate speed-tying) as well as things like Adamant Dragonite, though I could be persuaded to switch it to a Modest nature. I added Toxic to the set in the last slot since now Landorus-T sets up Rocks, which gives me freedom to beat Jellicent more easily since it can't stay in very long once it's been poisoned. This also means things like Politoed, Vaporeon and Rotom-W will think twice before switching into Heatran.
    [​IMG]

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 20 Spd / 232 SDef / 4 Def
    Calm Nature
    - Psychic
    - Baton Pass
    - Nasty Plot
    - Recover​

    I may not have built the team around her, but Celebi is definitely up there for MVP of my team. Specially Defensive Celebi is one of the best Pokémon in the game right now. It is a solid answer to Landorus, Thundurus-T, and Breloom, which are all extremely potent offensive threats. The only thing Celebi has to worry about is the rare U-turn from Landorus or Thundurus-T, but if they have that, then Keldeo can revenge kill both with Surf, so it isn’t a huge problem. The main selling point of this set is Baton Pass. It allows me to escape from Tyranitar trying to get the Pursuit Trap on me, only to have me get to +3 with Lucario after Justified and Swords Dance boosts. When that happens, gg. I switched Perish Song for Nasty Plot and it's been working like a charm. Passing +2 to Scarf Keldeo or Heatran is laughably good. Once things like Jellicent have been eliminated, Keldeo sweeps. Celebi herself has actually swept once or twice with just Psychic.



    Conclusion

    I’ve had pretty good success with the team, as a whole. I peaked at around ~1920 on an alt I made, but, as with all teams, I feel like it may have gotten stale or the metagame has shifted slightly because it hasn’t been working as well as it has been in the past. At the very least, I got to show off Focus Punch Breloom and Bullet Punch Lucario, so I guess it was worth it. Thanks for reading and for your help!

    Threat list (open)

    Red=Serious threat
    Orange=Medium threat
    Green=Minor threat
    Jellicent- If Breloom is taken out, then nothing I have can 2HKO it. This thing is the only reason I kind of want to use HP Ghost/Electric on Keldeo. If it's paired with Ferrothorn (which it almost always is) then even Breloom has a hard time dealing with it unless I predict perfectly. No idea of how to go about fixing this problem. Possibly Giga Drain on Celebi?
    Sash Alakazam- This thing can kill any of my Pokémon if it has its Sash intact. The only way I can deal with it is to U-turn it with Landorus and then kill it with any of Breloom, Lucario, or Keldeo. Scary thing to face, and I hate having to play around it.
    Starmie (Scarf especially)- Though Scarf Starmie is rare, I have run into a few, and it can KO everything I have on my team. Usually I just try to U-turn from Landorus into Keldeo to KO.
    Banded Terrakion- It has the ability to 2HKO everything on my team if I predict incorrectly. Landorus-T is my only savior against this thing, but since I don’t have a bulky set, it can’t switch in too many times. Breloom/Lucario are nice checks, but that’s all they really are.
    Calm Mind Latias- This thing cannot be stopped. I have nothing on my team that can even come close to being able to KO it once it starts setting up. Could really use help with this one.
    Volcarona- Not too much of a problem, but if Keldeo is dead, then I have to hope that I can live with Landorus-T and KO with Earthquake. If it gets to +2, it's pretty much gg.
    Lucario- If it sets up and Landorus-T/Celebi are dead/weakened, then I’m in trouble because I’ll have to rely on a speed tie with Lucario to win. Not fun, but it’s manageable.
    Gengar- Not a huge threat, since few people suspect BP from Lucario and try to set up on it instead. not to mention Celebi can OHKO it while Shadow Ball can’t, but celebi has to be at full health.
    Infernape- Unfortunately, this thing actually can be really scary for my team if Landorus-T is weakened. The mixed set with HP Ice is even worse. Usually I can play around it until Mach Punch/Extremespeed can KO, but it can be a problem.
    DD Gyarados- a very potent threat for my team. I don’t have much to deal with it at all except for switching in between Landorus-T and Celebi hoping I can predict right. Sub sets are serious problems for the team too, since Intimidate doesn’t work on him.​


    Importable (open)
    Breloom @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Seed
    - Focus Punch
    - Spore

    Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Keldeo @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Secret Sword
    - Icy Wind
    - Hidden Power [Bug]

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Bullet Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 232 SDef / 20 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Psychic
    - Baton Pass
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover

    Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock


    Also, last minute s/o to False Sense, who helped me out with this team when I first came up with the original frame. Thanks bud :)
  2. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    992
    Hey Halcyon of Light, nice team.

    First of all, as you mentioned in your threat list, DD Gyarados is a rather large threat to your team. The sub variants are able to set up a DD in front of pretty much the entirety of your team and then proceed to pull off a sweep if they play well. To help mitigate the problem I highly suggest running Hidden Power [Electric] over Hidden Power [Ice] on Keldeo. This would also help with Jellicent. In reality, you have 2 priority users, 2 steel types, and a Pokemon with Intimidate which also outspeeds +1 Dragonite. Overall, you seem to have Dragons covered without Hidden Power [Ice]. If you feel you've made yourself too vulnerable to dragons by making this change then try Icy Wind over Surf (or Hydro Pump if you feel the accuracy is just too important) on Keldeo to palliate the problem.

    Again, as you pointed out in your threat list, Calm Mind Latias is another large problem for your team. Lucario is an alright answer to it if it lacks Hidden Power [Fire], you can SD, tank a Dragon Pulse, Extremespeed, then U-Turn with Landorus for the kill. This obviously isn't a very solid solution, especially considering it relies on a Life Orb wielding to sweeper to be healthy and for Latias to not have Hidden Power [Fire]. A better solution would be to maybe replace one of Heatran's moves for Roar. However, I think the best solution would probably be to run Perish Song over Thunder Wave on Celebi. Of course, Perish Song paired Baton Pass isn't the best combination, you could run U-Turn over Perish song, but that does leave you susceptible to Pursuit trappers. Keeping Baton Pass should be fine, just remember to almost always hard switch rather than Baton Pass when Perish Song is in effect (there are actually a few situations in which intentionally killing one of your mons by Baton Passing Perish Song is a strategically optimum play, but that's incredibly rare).

    I'm just going to note a few possible changes you could make to help with certain threats:
    • You could replace your offensive Heatran with a Specially Defensive set, this would help with most specially orientated threats, especially CM Latias
    • The help with taking special hits and the extra solution to CM Latias Specially Defensive Heatran provides would allow you to replace your current Celebi with Kidogo / ginganinja's NP BP Celebi set
    • You could replace your Choice Scarf Landorus-T with a Landorus to help with the likes of Volcarona, or with a more bulky set to help a lot with Dragons and offensive threats in general
    • Bulky Landorus would provide you with Stealth Rock, therefore you could replace Stealth Rock on Heatran
    • You could also replace Life Orb with Fighting Gem on Breloom, this would further its wall breaking capabilities, turn some of those almost OHKOs into OHKOs and lets Breloom stay around for longer due to lack of recoil damage
    Finally, I just have a few aesthetic changes in mind; I highly suggest replacing the yellow used in your threat list with green, bright yellow is hard to read and it hurts my eyes, this would also create a traffic light colour scheme which looks pretty cool, lol. Maybe also remove the lines in between the Breloom damage calcs, it just takes up less space, and maybe centre the Teambuilding Process HIDE tag.

    Anyway, I hope this this rate helped and good luck with the team :)
  3. D i a b l o

    D i a b l o Guest

    Hi dude,

    Great team you have; but i suggest some advice for you!
    First of all, i feel a big hatred with Heatran on weatherless 'cause if you find a RainTeam, you play with 5 vs 6 pokémons (and the rain are widely used) so I propose you a change aka ScarfTyranitar over Heatran; with it you can solve the problem of some Pokémon that give you problems and the sunny don't create more problems, anyway.

    Now, with this change, you can try BulkySetter Landorus-T over ScarfSet, it still hase a good sinergy with Celebi but now it has a great bulkyness!
    Now I agree with a change proposed by The Great Mighty Doom aka replace Life Orb with Fight Gem on Breloom but I think that U-Turn on Celebi sucks because Tyranitar can trap easy it.

    tl;dr
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
    Jolly Nature - Intimidate
    252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spd
    Earthquake - U-Turn - Hidden Power [Ice] - Stealth Rock
    With this EVs you exceed Tentacruel, RotomW and Breloom.
    Hidden Power Ice>Stone Edge to beat Lando-T opponent or Garchomp and obviously Dragonite, Salamence etc.

    [​IMG] --->[​IMG]

    Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
    Jolly Nature - Sand Stream
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Crunch - Pursuit - Stone Edge - Superpower/Ice Beam

    [​IMG]
    Fight Gem over Life Orb


    Hope I helped you; good look for the team, dude!
  4. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    764
    Hello, nice team. As you mentioned in your threatlist, Jellicent seems to be a problem, since it walls the majority of your team once Breloom is taken out, and since Breloom is frail and constantly takes Life Orb damage and Sand damage if your opponent is running a Sand team and with no Rapid Spin user it will come in most of the time on hazards and take some damage. Anyways, an effective way to deal with Jellicent would be to use Crunch over Bullet Punch on Lucario. Bullet Punch is mainly used to beat Terrakion, but you have Landorus-T to handle it, so you can afford to have Crunch instead of Bullet Punch for Lucario. The loss of Bullet Punch would mean you're a bit weaker to Terrakion, so I'd go with a more bulky Landorus-T, change it to an Offensive Pivot set, as seen below.

    Landorus-T (open)

    [​IMG]
    Landorus-T (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn

    Choice Scarf on Landorus-T wasn't necessary since you already have a reliable Scarf revenge-killer with Keldeo, and Scarf Landorus-T can give set-up opportunities if it's locked in the wrong move, for example, it's locked on Earthquake and then Landorus can use Rock Polish and if Celebi is weakened enough it's gg. Landorus-T becomes your offensive pivot and it can set-up Stealth Rock reliably thanks to Intimidate forcing switches. Now that Landorus-T has Stealth Rock it frees up a spot for a move for Heatran, so I'd replace Heatran's Stealth Rock by Toxic, so you can poison a Jellicent that is thinking your Heatran has the standard Offensive set, and while thinking it's safe to stay in against Heatran you can Toxic it, and once Jellicent is poisoned it's much easier to deal with it.
  5. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,538
    Thanks for the rates everyone! I really appreciate the input.

    @The Great Mighty Doom
    Yeah I agree, I think that Hidden Power Electric and Icy Wind are just going to have to be what I use. Honestly, I can't go without a way to check +1 Dragons, but Gyarados and Jellicent are just too threatening to the team, so I'll test that set and see how it goes. I still won't have much that will like switching into Gyarados's Bounce, but I can play around it. I would prefer to run Perish Song on Celebi than Roar on Heatran, since, if Latias is the only Pokémon left on the opponent's team, I'll still be able to beat it with Perish Song (Roar would be useless in this situation). Fight Gem Breloom is always an option, I'll test that out too! Also, I changed the formatting like you said. Thanks for the great advice :)

    @Dead Whiz I'm not sure I like the idea of switching Heatran for Tyranitar. They perform different roles entirely, since Heatran is my main answer to things like Ferrothorn and Dragon types (Landorus-T can only take so many unresisted hits...), but I'll try switching Landorus-T so a bulky set since so many people have been suggesting it. I feel like that might leave me vulnerable to things like Alakazam and Starmie though, but it's certainly worth a test! Thanks for your help!

    @Sayonara Thanks for the rate! Yeah, while playing yesterday I got my butt handed to me by a Ferrocent core that was predicting me left and right, and all I could think was "damn I wish I had Crunch on Lucario," so I'll definitely give that a shot! Also, as I said before, I'll test out bulky Landorus-T since so many people are suggesting it again. Toxic on Heatran is an interesting option, so I'll try that out too. Thanks for the rate!
  6. Conduit

    Conduit

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    44
    I'm surprised this hasn't received many rates - I assume because it's already a really solid Hyper Offensive team!
    I only have a few suggestions!

    1) I would personally make Heatran with a Shed Shell so as not to be trapped by Dugtrio which Sun poses a huge threat to your team. Surprisingly enough, other than Dugtrio, Sun team have almost no other check to it.

    2) As with all offensive team, I always suggest one Landorus spread only because of its effectiveness. In all my testing this has been the definitive spread for myself. I hope it works for you!
    236 HP / 180 Def / 92 Spd

    While retaining its prime function as a bulky lead - this also gives it the speed to outrun Adamant Dragonite, Adamant Toxicroak, Jolly Breloom, Defensive Rotoms, Celebi, etc. It's very effective in also taking out opposing Landorus-T as well!

    Great team and best of luck, Luvdisked :3
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,538
    Hey thanks for the rate! I hadn't even considered Shed Shell on Heatran, but that is a great idea because I hate having to play around Dugtrio on sun teams. Definitely gonna try that. As for the EV spread, I certainly like the idea of being able to outspeed all those things, so I'll try that too. Thanks, this rate was really helpful, and I appreciate your kind words and luvdisc!
  8. The Pwner

    The Pwner

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Very nice team, but like any team, it has its flaws.

    REPLACE CELEBI WITH ROTOM WASH
    Rotom Wash seriously is one of the needs this team needs. A scarfed specially defensive set with trick/wow/volt switch/hydro pump would be able to destroy +1 gyarados and other stuf. It also helps your team by giving it momentum between lando t and rotom w. Lastly, it can check most of the threats to your team and can screw their plans with trick/wow/volt switch.

    MEW OVER LUCARIO
    Now I know what your thinking: why would I put mew over my only sweeper? The answer is that mew can pull of the sweeping job much easier than lucario did with a set of sd/reflect type/drain punch/sucker punch and EV's of 252 atk 252 spe jolly nature. This set can rip apart unprepared teams. Say you lead off with mew and your opponent leads off with cb tyranitar. As he try's to nail you with a pursuit, you can set up the reflect type, sd up and sweep his team with drain punch and sucker punch.

    JOLTEON OVER KELDEO
    3 reasons:
    1-higher speed and base power
    2-provides more momentum with volt switch
    3-checks almost all of your threats. Jellicent? Use thunder bolt. Terrakion? Volt switch to lando. Starmie? Out speed and hurt it with thunderbolt/volt switch. This applies to most of your threats, and really would provide a offensive backbone for your team.

    Sets:

    Rotom-W
    Timid
    Choice scarf
    252 hp 228 SpD rest in speed
    trick/volt switch/will o wisp/hydro pump

    Mew
    Jolly
    Leftovers
    252 atk 252 spe 4 hp
    reflect type/swords dance/drain punch/sucker punch

    Jolteon
    Modest
    252 spa 252 spe 4 hp
    thunderbolt/volt switch/shadow ball/hidden power ice

    Hope you like these changes!
    Note: this review was done on an iPad, so please excuse some of my mistakes.
  9. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    Hey halcyon, very cool team. Your team just screams sand team to me, and I think adding a tyranitar's pursuit trapping abilities to your team would incredibly benefit your sweepers. Tyranitar works perfecty with this team removing some big threats like the lati twins (biggest threat to your team), jellicent, starmie and more. Heatran is pretty replacable imo so, Choice band tar would be my reccomendation, gliscor and opposing landorus-t also seem like they could be a pain in the butt for you so you can try aqua-tail over superpower as your team already wrecks steels pretty handily, you could also opt for hp-ice on lando-t but that would make you more gyra weak so I wouldn't strongly reccommend it. This allows you to also use bullet punch on lucario which is the best 4th move on lucario in this metagame. I would also consider changing your current celebi set to the newest "fad" of nasty-pass celebi. As much as I hate to suggest such a overused set as of late, I think perish song is pretty replacable and nastypass really turns keldeo into a unstoppable monster. Now that you have tyranitar you can go with a more defensive spread if you like, helping with threats like lucario, terrakion etc. A bit lazy right now so I'll finish this with a full rate later.
  10. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,538
    I really appreciate the rate and the luvdisc, so thank you for that!

    However, I'm not sure I agree with your rate. I have thought about adding a Rotom-W before when using the team on the ladder since it would definitely help with Gyarados and create a nice FWG core on my team, but if I were to replace anything, it would be Landorus-T over Celebi, since Celebi is my main counter for Landorus, Thundurus-T, and Breloom. Rotom-W can lose to all three if those and they are much more common than Sub DD Gyarados. As for your Mew suggestion, it seems interesting, but I'm not sure if it really replaces Lucario well. Lucario is more of a late-game sweeper with a great ability to pick off weakened foes due to +2 priority of Extremespeed. Not that Mew isn't a good Pokemon, but it seems pretty outclassed in this role, especially since it has to rely on Sucker Punch as a priority move, which is unreliable and unSTABed unless I do Reflect Type a Tyranitar, which won't happen all the time. Jolteon, despite being a personal favorite of mine, doesn't really seem to make sense as a replacement for Keldeo. Jolteon has great speed, it's true, but it acts more as a revenge killer on rain teams than on weatherless teams. Not only that, but your suggested set has a Modest nature, which means he'll be outsped by Starmie, Alakazam, Weavile, and most importantly, Dugtrio, which can trap and KO non-Timid Jolteon. Replacing Keldeo with Jolteon also leaves me incredibly vulnerable to Scarf Salamence, Scarf Terrakion, and +1 Volcarona, which can set up on Jolteon.
    Thanks for the suggestions though! I really do appreciate the time an effort.
  11. Conduit

    Conduit

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    44
    Halcyon - I've been doing some testing with your team and it functions well however in order to deal with Alakazam and Gengar better I've been trying a SDEF Rachi over Lucario which has been doing well passing Wish to your teammates who absolutely enjoy the longevity and backbone. Also it is great with checking Dragons as they can pose a threat despite two Steel types. Anyway, I've been trying this set but Ill post a second one as this is a hyper offensive team :). *Note: If I were you I'd be hesitant to remove a team mate that I built a team around so I'm sorry if this change isn't something you like ;<*

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 SDef / 42 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Wish
    - U-turn
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head

    Or a more offensive spread ~

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 136 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Wish
    - Substitute
    - Body Slam
    - Iron Head

    (I guess a CM set could work).

    Hope this helps :)
  12. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,538
    @Conduit No, I'm totally down to change anything! If you said it works, I'll totally give it a test. Thanks Conduit!

    @Gengarsnemisis Well, I was opposed to trying out Tyranitar over Heatran, but since two people have now suggested that to me, I suppose it's worth a shot! Banded Tyranitar with Aqua Tail does sound intriguing. I also plan on trying out the Nasty Plot set. How could I not? Having +2 Scarf Keldeo is the stuff of dreams. Thanks for the rate!
  13. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,843
    Hey Halcyon, you got a pretty solid team and the other raters did a good job so far on the team. But I do have a few suggestions.

    For Landorus-T, 196 is the ideal HP number to hit for maximum leftovers recovery. Any more and its an inefficient number for recovering hp or minimizing SR damage. You should put the remaining EVS into attack.

    Additionally, I understand that fighting gem allows you to get a really powerful hit off on Brelooms switchins with focus punch, but i believe life orb is the superior option. Focus Punch + Mach Punch is the ideal way you take out stuff like the Latis, weakened Celebis, and skarm (without rocks). With Fighting gem you don't take any recoil from life orb but you essentially have no item after the first focus punch. Life Orb adds consistent strength to breloom. With Life Orb and Stealth Rock, breloom has a chance to 2hko specially defensive xatu, gliscor, and defensive tentacruel with bullet seed + mach punch. While the focus / mach punch combo wouldn't be able to do that.

    Lastly I would suggest giving Celebi a few more speed EVS (at least 36 EVS) to outspeed the Tentacruels and Gliscors that like to hover around there. And you also are guaranteed to outspeed Jolly Tar which will be able to Crunch or Pursuit you before you get an opportunity to Baton Pass. Although it's a rare set, you only have to sacrifice a few SpD EVs to ensure it's never a threat to your Celebi.

    Good luck!
  14. Mosquiton

    Mosquiton Tette

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2010
    Messages:
    137
    Ehi Dude, very nice team here!

    The first thing i notice in your team is the presence of two grass which isnt really needed but without the presence of the weather setter the various sun and rain teams you encounter can give you some problems, so i want to suggest you to try ScarfTyranitar instead of Breloom, in this way you will be able to ko various Gengar that can create problems for your team, also with tyranitar can kill various check of keldeo for example Lati@s but especially Celebi because everyone is using it with Batonpass so you can hit it first with crunch. I think tyranitar is a good implement here because in this way your heatran wont sucks against rain teams and your keldeo wont be useless againt sun. Also having Crunch on Tyranitar can free a slot on lucario which can be filled with bullet punch, so you hit Terrakion, gengar and scarf tyranitar. As a last thing I want to suggest a mini-strategy within the team. Personally I find it is not a wise choice to use PerishSong + BatonPass on Celebi, because perish song will be passed if you used baton pass, letting the other pokemon die, forcing you to another switch giving free turns to the opponent, so i came up with the idea of putting NastyPlot > PSong, in this way you will pass the boost to Heatran or ScarfKeldeo in a hurry to close the game. Talking abput Heatran i want advise you to enter FlameCharge > Toxic, so after receiving the boost from Celebi can also increase the speed, thanks to this Heatran can give an easy 6-0 to the varioous sun teams, but to do this you will need to give air baloon to Heatran to facilitate revenue after Celebi's pass. Also we all know how beastly can be keldeo at +2 once their check has been removed. GL

    Sets:
    Show Hide

    >Tyranitar over Loom
    >BulletPunch over Crunch @Lucario
    >NastyPlot over PerishSong @Celebi
    >FlameCharge over Toxic @Heatran

    Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Crunch
    - Stone Edge
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower

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