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Empoleon (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by ParaChomp, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    [​IMG]Empoleon
    credit to SsAaVv for the previous analysis

    [Overview]


    <p>Another generation has arrived, and for some returning Pokemon
    , it has been amazing. Then, there are those who cannot keep up with the new threats that have shown up. Empoleon is of the latter because, aside from a few minor additions to its movepool, nothing much has changed for it. It also has to contend with the many new Ground- and Fighting-types that dominate the standard metagame. Nonetheless, Empoleon still possesses well-distributed stats and many resistances that can be critical on a competitive team that is built to support it.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Roar / Yawn
    move 3: Stealth Rock / Protect
    move 4: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
    nature: Calm
    ability: Torrent
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    <p>With base 84 HP and 101 Special Defense, Empoleon is good at taking hits on the special side. Leftovers is a given for any defensive set
    , and is Empoleon's only way to heal outside of Rest and Wish support. Scald is a great new STAB move for Empoleon that has a 30% chance of burn, which usually proves quite helpful against those targeting its weaker Defense stat. Empoleon also has 2 ways to force switches, through Roar or Yawn (Roar generally being the better option due to Sleep Clause). The choice between Grass Knot and Ice Beam is always a tough one, so you might want to adapt your team with the choice in mind as depending on what you choose, Empoleon will not be dealing much damage to either Grass- or Water-types.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    <p>The EV spread allows Empoleon to take special attacks extremely well
    , including Latios' infamous Draco Meteor. A Modest Choice Specs Latios' Draco Meteor will only take away around 39.5% to 46.8% of Empoleon's health. However, an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD can be used to balance out Empoleon's defenses, but this is generally not advised, as Empoleon's defenses are not high enough for it to be an effective mixed wall unlike other Pokemon such as Ferrothorn. If you are running another Pokemon that carries Stealth Rock, then Protect can replace it on the moveset. Protect is good for stalling and causing passive damage / healing, but do note that it can be used against you as a free turn can allow your opponent to switch or set up on you. With no source of recovery outside Leftovers, Empoleon greatly appreciates Wish support from Pokemon such as Blissey or Jirachi. Electric-types and special walls are the bane of Empoleon's existence, so it is suggested to run Empoleon on a sandstorm team as Excadrill can easily remove most of its counters.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Grass Knot
    nature: Modest
    ability: Torrent
    item: Life Orb / Air Balloon
    evs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    <p>Empoleon is a unique special sweeper having base 84 / 88 / 101 defensive stats to back up its base 111 Special Attack. As a sweeper, maximum Special Attack through a Modest nature and 252 Special Attack EVs is an obvious choice. Hydro Pump is preferred for the extra power, but it is perfectly fine to use Surf if accuracy bugs you. Grass Knot hits Water-types
    , and Ice Beam hits Grass-types. Life Orb boosts the power of Empoleon's attacks significantly, but the Air Balloon grants it an immunity to Ground-type moves, a good choice considering the continued popularity of Earthquake.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    <p>Unfortunately, the Petaya Berry is currently unreleased, but a set with it and Substitute would be superior if it was available. 240 Speed EVs
    allow Empoleon to reach a blistering 432 Speed after an Agility, helping it to outrun most common threats. The 16 EVs in HP give it an odd amount of HP for residual damage. This set fits well on both rain and sandstorm teams. Gliscor is a good teammate, as it easily sponges Mach Punch and can attack with a STAB Acrobatics. Blissey, Chansey, and the odd Snorlax are also troublesome for this set, so bringing your own Fighting-types to kill or set up on the fat blobs is probably a good idea. Against rain teams, Ludicolo's typing and abilities also help out against common Water-type counters.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire
    nature: Modest
    ability: Torrent
    item: Choice Specs
    evs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
    ivs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]


    <p>Despite having Agility to hit opponents fast
    , Empoleon might just not be able to finish them off, making a Choice Specs set favorable. The EV spread allows Empoleon to take more hits and hit harder. What makes it better are Empoleon's resistance to Stealth Rock and immunity to Toxic Spikes, allowing it to switch in and switch out without much worry. Nonetheless, 248 HP EVs give it an odd number of HP for reduced passive damage against the likes of Spikes and hail. As for attacks, it is similar to the Agility set. Again, Hydro Pump is preferred for more power, but Surf can be used if accuracy bugs you. Grass Knot takes care of Water-types, and Ice Beam takes care of Grass-types, both of which resist Empoleon's Water-type STAB. Hidden Power Fire gives Empoleon a way to deal with the ever so common Ferrothorn. In order to get the highest stats possible and Hidden Power Fire with 70 Base Power, the following IVs are used.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]


    <p>Choice Specs Empoleon is not a bad choice on rain teams
    , considering the power of its boosted Water-type attacks in rain. With rain teams in mind, Politoed an obvious team option. Do not look at Politoed as a burden to Empoleon's Hidden Power Fire, as it still deals more damage to Ferrothorn than Surf in the rain. Conkeldurr's Mach Punch also ruins Empoleon's fun, so Gliscor is a good option once more. Electivire is also a handy teammate, as it can take Electric-type attacks to boost its Speed and then finish the job. Conkeldurr is a notable potential teammate for its ability to defeat common special walls such as Chansey and Blissey.</p>

    [Other Options]


    <p>A set with Swords Dance is possible
    with access to Earthquake, Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Drill Peck, Return, Avalanche, and other viable options, but Empoleon's Attack stat is rather lacking. Flash Cannon might be an appealing STAB move, but it does not help against Empoleon's counters. Scald can be used on offensive sets, but the lack of power really diminishes its value. On the Choice set, Sleep Talk could potentially find some use against sleep-inducing enemies, but is generally inferior in usefulness to a coverage move. Rest can heal Empoleon instantly, but even with Sleep Talk, Empoleon's low Speed, common weaknesses, and relatively low offensive power (without EV investment) make it an unappealing choice for a RestTalk user. Knock Off can be used to rid foes of their items. Hidden Power Electric can be used to hit light Water-types harder. Signal Beam is an okay special attack, but does little for Empoleon's type coverage.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]


    <p>As for counters, special walls such as Blissey and Chansey are obvious. The Agility set has trouble with enemies that outspeed it at +2, as well as Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave users. Conkeldurr and Mienshao (with a Choice Scarf) are good choices
    , as they strike at Empoleon's weaker Defense, have great Attack, powerful super effective STAB moves, and either priority or greater Speed. Magnezone has Magnet Pull, allowing it to trap Empoleon, though it must be wary of Empoleon's boosted STAB Water-type attacks. Ferrothorn is an excellent counter, as it easily shrugs off all of Empoleon's main moves including Ice Beam, but it has to be careful about Hidden Power Fire. Suicune and Vaporeon resist Water- and Ice-type moves, while Vaporeon's low weight also allows it to easily absorb Grass Knot.</p>

    [Dream World]


    <p>Empoleon's Dream World ability has been released. Defiant raises Attack by
    two stages when any stat is lowered. A Swords Dance set can be used, with Defiant netting a +1 Attack from Intimidate users. Unfortunately, Empoleon has a lot of problems with Defiant. Its 86 base Attack leaves much to be desired, making any purely physical Empoleon set something of a gimmick. Furthermore, the most common Intimidate users, Salamence and Gyarados, resist Aqua Jet (not that opponents will opt to switch Intimidate users into a Defiant user). It is best to stick with Torrent.</p>
  2. madgenius2013

    madgenius2013

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    Empoleon doesn't have a poor attack, it is just not as great as its special attack. In fact, Swords Dance sets are meant to cause switches. This means that if predicted correctly, Empoleon's attack can be skyrocketed. In other words, it's worth rewording what is said under the Defiant set. Also, Torrent is perfectly viable with SD as well, so it is best to call that set "Swords Dance" or "Physical Attacker".
  3. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    Why use Torrent when you have Defiant? Then comes the fact that with Swords Dance, they know your ability but I'll keep it.
  4. AlphaSpade

    AlphaSpade

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    Scald is really pointless on the offensive sets, since the point is kinda to nail everything as hard as possible. The burn is not worth the extra damage.

    Also, maybe mention Balloon on the SD set to revenge the fuck out of Landlos and Excadrill?
  5. HART4FLOON

    HART4FLOON

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    sd is terrible: its piss-weak even at +6, which you're never gonna get to anyway
  6. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    Base 86 Attack is better than Altaria's Base 70, and I don't see Altaria only running support and cleric sets! Empoleon has a few options when using Swords Dance, too, including the coveted Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Earthquake, Shadow Claw, Rock Slide and Drill Peck. Not too many moves, but enough to get good coverage. The only problem is having your stats lowered on the switch (enemies aren't usually thick enough to use, say, Screech on Empoleon if they know about Defiant). Brick Break and Return are fairly meh options, though. Also, Yawn should be slashed on the first three sets as an option, because it can be an effective-pseudo phazer, and especially after Agility, it is able to hit before it is KOed. Also IMO put Earthquake into the last set, at least as a slash over Brick Break, because it is generally a more useful and stronger move. Shadow Claw is useful for hitting Levitating Ghosts harder than with Aqua Jet, but the main abuser, Gengar, is pretty frail, so it might not be necessary either. If only Physical Empoleon could kill Skarmory...not like it's doing much back.
  7. MackTheKnife

    MackTheKnife

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    If your still writing this, you have to put "Quality Control Empoleon (Placeholder)"
  8. am zane ok.

    am zane ok.

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    Most of the main Intimidate users can still take down Empoleon. And the ones that can't have no business switching in on Empoleon anyways.

    Hitmontop with an Impish Nature and EVs in Defense and HP with Leftovers can do from 74.19% to 87.9% with a Close Combat to Empoleon (and it also outspeeds, which is rather unimportant when Empoleon's got Aqua Jet). This defensive Hitmontop only receives 43.42% to 51.32% from a +3 Aqua Jet, anyways, making it usually lost cause. Hitmontop also tends not to run Intimidate, and chooses Mach Punch and Technician with maximum attack, meaning it outspeeds Empoleon with Mach Punch and OHKOs.

    Offensive Gyarados can do from 90.86% to 106.45% with Earthquake, and is resistant to Aqua Jet. Life Orb damage makes that a KO.

    Salamence does 87.63% to 103.23% with Earthquake. Again, damage Life Orb means a KO on Empoleon (usually), and Salamence is also resistant to Aqua Jet.

    Arcanine, Krookodile, and Staraptor... That's funny.

    Actually, I just checked, and Staraptor can survive a +3 Adamant Aqua Jet, and KO with Close Combat after Life Orb damage from the Aqua Jet (but Staraptor will faint if Stealth Rock is on the field).

    Didn't calculate for the former two because I have a history paper to write, and you'd have to be dumb to switch them in. 0:

    In conclusion, Defiant is primarily useless against Intimidate users, and is very unreliable against common stat-reducing attacks.

    Actually, potentially stat reducing attacks like Crunch, Psychic, and Shadow Ball are not likely to be used on Empoleon anyways, and their effects are not frequent enough to rely on switching in (as Empoleon has only okay defensive stats and Life Orb damage to worry about, and the fact that all of the above attacks are almost always used along with a super effective Fighting-type move).

    In my opinion, stick with Torrent. It's still rather unimpressive, but at least it can boost your STAB priority in a pinch.

    And don't judge me if my calculations or logic is incorrect! I'm tired and running off of coffee. ):

    -Zane

    Edit: Oh, and you have your EVs in Special Attack on the Swords Dance set. Fix it to Attack. And also, "Lead" sets are not really acceptable, anymore. "Stealth Rock" would be okay, but there are still better users of it. And Hidden Power Fire should be an option on Choice Specs for Ferrothorn.
  9. TEA_DEMON

    TEA_DEMON

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    scald has no place on any of the offensive sets.
  10. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    There is already an Empoleon analysis here.
    Did you ask the original author wether or not you could take it over?
    And if so, you should probably copy his thread and work on from it because it has already recieved two QC stamps.
  11. HART4FLOON

    HART4FLOON

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    if you do end up taking over the analysis, it seems like the qc team rejected everything except for a specially defensive set so you should probably remove everything else
  12. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Empoleon was in the list of available takeovers, so ParaChomp has rights.
  13. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Oh, ok, I didn't know. By the way, can you link me to the list? I might take something over :p
  14. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    The previous thread owner was SsAaVv - in response to my mass PM asking whether thread OPs wished to keep their analyses, he replied with the following:

    So Parachomp can continue with this.
  15. GtM

    GtM

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    The Specially Defensive Set and the Shuffling Tank set are extremely similar and can just be condensed into one, imo.

    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1:
    Scald
    move 2:
    Roar
    move 3: Stealth Rock / Knock Off

    move 4: Ice Beam / Grass Knot

    nature:
    Calm
    item:
    Leftovers
    evs:
    252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

    Hidden Power Electric should be Other Options at best since it's only really useful against Gyarados. I wouldn't mention it, personally.
  16. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    Thanks for the input. Now I have less work to do.
  17. madgenius2013

    madgenius2013

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    Yes, you are right. Defiant is a lot better than Torrent, but I'm not sure if it has been released quite yet. Does anyone know if it has?
  18. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    I do have the analysis. No offence or anything but I want to hear it from them to make sure but thank you for mentioning it. I do agree that these sets aren't as viable in generation 5 but I just want to hear it from the officials to make sure.

    Okay, this is done, I'll write it up later. Ready for QC checks!
  19. am zane ok.

    am zane ok.

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    What? I thought that after my elaboration, it would be a little more clear how unreliable Defiant really is. I thought it made it quite defined that Intimidate users are either 100% capable of switching into Empoleon, regardless of Defiant, or idiotic for switching in due to their poor typing against a Water-type (Arcanine, Krookodile, etc). Unless, of course, I'm forgetting something, because this is all a theory backed by damage calculations.

    And make sure you state which ability you are using on each set, ParaChomp. (Torrent for all, in this case, since physical Empoleon is just not happening this generation...)

    -Zane
  20. madgenius2013

    madgenius2013

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    Well, then there's Gyarados, but thanks to Earthquake, Emopleon wouldn't be staying out for too long then. Torrent DOES seem to be more efficient at making Empoleon usable.
  21. am zane ok.

    am zane ok.

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    It's not as if Empoleon has the physical movepool to really handle it. Rock Slide (which is more or less unlikely to be used, anyways) off of a non-STAB, poor, +1 attack stat, if Empoleon predicts correctly and doesn't waste its turn Swords Dancing. SCARY!

    Too bad Defiant wasn't given to a Pokémon that could really handle any of the Intimidate users... I mean, they're not going to be stopped anytime soon by... Er... Empoleon, Bisharp, or Farfetch'd...

    Maybe Farfetch'd.

    -Zane
  22. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    Did so. Still waiting.
  23. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize And Blue Badge Set :)
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    I would slash Hydro Pump over Surf on the Agility set because Hydro Pump does more damage over time factoring in the 80 Accuracy and Empoleon needs to OHKO anything he can.
  24. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Talked with QCers about Empoleon, came to the following conclusions:

    1: Set Order. Defensive > Agility > Specs. We're still a little questionable on whether or not Specs even works, but it looks "okay"

    2: Petaya Berry is currently unreleased, so remove it from the Agility set. Agility should look like this:

    [SET]
    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Grass Knot
    nature: Modest
    ability: Torrent
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

    Don't mention Scald in AC either. Might be a good idea to explicitly state that Petaya is unreleased and thus illegal.

    3: Protect instead of Knock Off on the Specially Defensive set. Knock Off can go in AC, but Protect is extremely useful for a number of reasons, same as how it's useful for Swampert in Generation 4.
  25. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    Okay, changed it up to your specifications.

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