Empoleon [QC 0/3]

[horyzhnz]

First proper post to Smogon; feedback is greatly appreciated.

King of the penguins!

Overview
########
Unique Water/Steel typing grants it TEN resistances and one immunity
Great 84/88/101 defenses allow it to function as a special wall
Can switch rather easily due to Toxic Spikes immunity and a resistance to SR
Base 111 Special Attack lets it hit hard while still walling
Common weaknesses to Fighting, Ground and Electric attacks
Relatively slow base 60 Speed
Nerf to Steel means it won't be taking Dark/Ghost attacks as well
No means of reliable recovery
Lack of special boosting moves and a lackluster special movepool


Specially Defensive
########
name: Special Wall
move 1: Scald
move 2: Stealth Rock
move 3: Defog
move 4: Roar / Toxic / Ice Beam
ability: Torrent
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Calm

Moves
========
Scald's chance to cripple physical attackers is invaluable, and when it comes off a base 111 SAtk it is going to hurt
Stealth Rock is an amazing entry hazard, and Empoleon is one of the only bulky Water types with access to it
Roar prevents Empoleon from being setup fodder
Toxic can be used to cripple special attackers and opposing walls, but keep in mind that it may conflict with Scald's burn chance
Ice Beam provides extra coverage against Grass and Dragon types
Empoleon's access to Defog allows it to clear entry hazards then set up its own
Alternatively Protect allows Empoleon to scout moves and stall for burn/poison damage as well as Leftovers recovery

Set Details
========
HP EVs ensure Empoleon takes minimal damage from SR/Leech Seed while the SpD EVs boost its already great special bulk
A Calm nature is used to capitalize on Empoleon's special bulk
Leftovers provides much needed passive healing

Usage Tips
========
Can be used as a mid-game hazard setter thanks to its numerous resistances
Empoleon's niche in OU comes from being a bulky Defog user who resists SR
If your team already has a SR setter Toxic is the best alternative
Roar is on the last slot to phaze Manaphy, one of the most important threats that Empoleon walls, and is also very useful against CM Clefable and CroCune

Team Options
========
Wish support is highly beneficial, and physically defensive Clefable or Sylveon have great synergy with Empoleon
Gliscor and Landorus-T make great teammates and pivots, resisting all of Empoleon's weaknesses whilst Empoleon resists all of theirs
Speedy Ghost-types can be used to spinblock and lessen the need to bring Empoleon in to Defog and reset hazards; Gengar, Trevenant and Gourgeist have great synergy with Empoleon

Other Options
########
Icy Wind can be used to slow down a predicted switch
Yawn can pseudo-phase and give Empoleon a free turn to set up
Knock Off cripples mons that rely on items for damage output/recovery
A SubPetaya set can be used as a late game sweeper, although it is heavily outclassed
Empoleon's access to Defiant and it's decent physical movepool can be used to some extent but it is overshadowed by Gyarados as a physical Water type, and Bisharp as a Defiant sweeper

Checks & Counters
########
Vaporeon and specially defensive Jellicents wall Empoleon entirely, absorbing its STABS and taking a pittance from it's other coverage moves
Any Electric/Fighting type that can take a Scald/doesn't mind burn can easily shut down Empoleon with its STABs
Guts users; notably AV Conkeldurr who OHKOs with Drain Punch after a burn/toxic
Ferrothorn is another great counter; even physically defensive variants can take Ice Beams and hit back with Power Whip and Leech Seed
Rotom-W can whittle its health down with WoW and Volt Switch into a counter while taking barely any damage

 

[thatgirl]

Personally, I think Defog should get a mention alongside Roar / Toxic. At the very least, it should get a mention in OO.

 

[Jukain]

defog should be mandatory on sdef

and the offensive set sucks without a petaya berry available just remove it.

 

[Swamp Link]

I wanted to do this one, but I was away for 4 days, ah well.
Petaya Berry's available (at least according to Bulbapedia, and the ladder let me use it)
But these sets are pretty ew.
The only offensive set should be SubPetaya. Agility/Substitute/Surf/Ice Beam @ Petaya Berry. It doesn't suck completely, but in this metagame it should probably be second set.
The Specially Defensive set should be first because that's its main niche. You can't really copy the set from last generation because its role is completely different. I think something like this:
Defog
Scald
Roar / Stealth Rock
Ice Beam / Knock Off
Do that first, then we can talk about other stuff.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

There's some new berry mutation mechanic that lets you get berries like Petaya and Salac, so it's available. But yeah, I agree that the SubPetaya set should be second, if not moved to Other Options. I'm just going to echo Swamp Link here on the set:

name: SubPetaya
move 1: Agility
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam
ability: Torrent
item: Petaya Berry
evs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
nature: Modest

The Spe EVs allow Empoleon to outspeed Adamant Scarf Kyurem-B and every thing slower after an Agility boost, and I honestly don't see much of a reason to run more. Meanwhile, those 12 HP EVs bring Empoleon's HP stat to 312 (which is divisible by 4), allowing Empoleon to Sub down to Petaya range with 3 Substitutes from full health. There might be other possibilities for coverage moves, but this looks like the best setup from what I can tell.

EDIT: Forgot to change the item to Petaya Berry after I copy/pasted from the OP. Not that it really matters, since this set would probably be better off as an Other Options mention anyway.

 

[Magnemite]

I really don't see any reason to run an offensive set over something like Manaphy, which is faster, much more powerful, and doesn't need like 50 turns of setup with sub and Agility just to work. Empoleon is iffy enough in OU as it is, even with its niche as a Water-type defogger, so I don't really think any set without Defog should be included outside of OO.

 

[Fuzznip]

Definitely agree with Magnemite. Empoleon's only niche in OU is the fact that it can set up Stealth Rock and Defog in the same set. I can't see why someone would use it as an Agility sweeper. I mean, I suppose it's usable to an extent, but why wouldn't you just use another Water-type or just another late-game cleaner in general that's perfectly viable in OU?

 

[Martin]

There's some new berry mutation mechanic that lets you get berries like Petaya and Salac, so it's available. But yeah, I agree that the SubPetaya set should be second, if not moved to Other Options. I'm just going to echo Swamp Link here on the set:

name: SubPetaya
move 1: Agility
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Ice Beam
ability: Torrent
item: Life Orb
evs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
nature: Modest

The Spe EVs allow Empoleon to outspeed Adamant Scarf Kyurem-B and every thing slower after an Agility boost, and I honestly don't see much of a reason to run more. Meanwhile, those 12 HP EVs bring Empoleon's HP stat to 312 (which is divisible by 4), allowing Empoleon to Sub down to Petaya range with 3 Substitutes from full health. There might be other possibilities for coverage moves, but this looks like the best setup from what I can tell.

It might help if the SubPetaya set actually had a petaya berry in the item slot. Just saying...

 

[CyclicCompound]

SubPetaya Empoleon, in my opinion, is NOT outclassed by Manaphy as a sweeper. Actually, they're kind of hard to compare in that they need different types of support—Manaphy generally needs faster Pokemon to be taken out of the picture, whereas Empoleon has no problem handling faster Pokemon but needs bulky water resists to be out of the way.

First of all, when it comes to its Water-type STAB (which Empoleon will be using most of the time), +1 Empoleon actually outdamages +3 Manaphy if Manaphy isn't holding a Life Orb (currently Leftovers is the main slash).

+1 252+ SpA Torrent Empoleon Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 166-196 (25.8 - 30.5%)
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 156-184 (24.2 - 28.6%)

Also, keep in mind that Agility makes Empoleon MUCH, much faster than Manaphy could hope to be. Outrunning Scarf KyuB and everything slower is pretty damn fast, if you ask me.

Empoleon's two weak points are bulky Water-type resists that don't mind a +1 Ice Beam, and users of strong priority moves that can take off that last 25% of Empoleon's health (note that Mega Pinsir CANNOT actually achieve this). On the other hand, Manaphy's weak point is basically anything that outspeeds it, as it's relatively easy to wear down. Overall, they need different types of support, and I think it's foolish to think one can generally use Empoleon in place of Manaphy or Manaphy in place of Empoleon.

In conclusion, I think SubPetaya deserves its own set. It's a strong attacker who can function as a great and fairly reliable late-game sweeper should its few checks or counters be removed, which they usually will be late-game.

 

[Ash Borer]

personally I think sub petaya is garbage because by necessity it is incredibly vulnerable to priority. Also it had no way of touching rotom which is kinda bad. As for viable sets fully specially defensve with protect / toxic / scald / defog or sr is all I'd touch. Toxic + scald lets it actually damage things, and protect + lefties is your only shot at survivability. Protect of course goes wonderfully with toxic or burns! the last slot provide the most prevalent and useful utilities in the meta, and is a choice to make for what the player needs. emp has no room for both. As far what it can do, its pretty solid at fighting specially offensive dragons, water types, specially offensive flying types, and it can usually work off resistances to find chances to defog.

 

[indian]

mention that it is one of the only two pokemon who learn defog and resist stealth rocks. also defog is mandatory on the defensive sets.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Yeah, SR+Defog while resisting SR itself is Empoleon's big niche, so not listing Defog at all on the SpD set is almost criminal! Scald/Defog/SR/Roar is the most useful set in my experience, but Ice Beam and possibly Toxic should be slashed with Roar. I don't feel that Knock Off deserves a slash because there are plenty of better users, it seems like OO material.

 

[alexwolf]

This should be the only set for Empoleon:

Specially Defensive
########
name: Specially Defensive
move 1: Scald
move 2: Defog
move 3: Stealth Rock / Toxic
move 4: Roar / Toxic
ability: Torrent
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
nature: Calm

Defog is a must, as if you already have a way to deal with hazards you probably shouldn't be using Empoleon. SR is the best move on the third slot, and Empoleon actually scares or beats most Defog and Rapid Spin users, so it's very effective. However, if your team already has a SR setter, Toxic is the best alternative. Roar goes first on the last slot to phaze Manaphy, one of the most important threats that Empoleon walls, and is also very useful against CM Clefable and CroCune, while Toxic is still a great option that pairs well with Scald.

Wish support is highly beneficial obviously, and physically defensive Clefable or Sylveon have great synergy with Empoleon.

 

[horyzhnz]

Edited.
SubPetaya has been moved to OO as well as Knock Off. Not sure how I missed Empoleon's access to Defog either.
Should be QC ready.

 

[Jukain]

make the set defog | sr | scald | roar / toxic / ice beam. protect goes in 'moves'. defog + sr is part of empoleon's niche and mandatory, no question. scald is mandatory as the stab. roar / toxic / ice beam because each move has some usefulness and should be slashed on the set for the reasons you mention.

 

[horyzhnz]

Set changed. Anything else I should add/mention?

 

[indian]

just nitpicks: defog should be the third move

Stealth Rock is an amazing entry hazard, and Empoleon is the only bulky Water type with access to it

swampert can use stealth rocks.

 

[horyzhnz]

just nitpicks: defog should be the third move. swampert can use stealth rocks.

Changed.

 

[PurpleCordial]

Special Defence should be listed as SpD not SpDf

 

[Magnemite]

Empoleon is the only bulky Water type with access to it (Stealth Rock) that also resists it

Swampert also resists Stealth Rock... I would change it to "Empoleon is one of the only bulky Water-types with access to it" for accuracy and clarity's sake.

 

[Explorer]

defog should be mandatory on sdef

and the offensive set sucks without a petaya berry available just remove it.

What about the SubSalac set with Swords Dance, Substitute, Waterfall, and Earthquake. This could go in other options because it's not as outclassed--most Water-types are special attackers.

 

[Alphanex20]

I just wanted to say a few things that I am surprised no one has mentioned.

1. 12 Speed EVs could be considered in some way as they let empoleon outspeed uninvested TTar (and potential either kill it if it is low enough or scald burn it)
2. Flash Cannon deserves a mention at least in OO as SDef Empoleon can be a good way to remove bulky fairies (like Togekiss, Support Clefable, and Sylveon) and it can catch Kyurem-B on the switch in (who already hates the rocks Empoleon can set up).

 

[horyzhnz]

Swampert also resists Stealth Rock... I would change it to "Empoleon is one of the only bulky Water-types with access to it" for accuracy and clarity's sake.

Changed.

What about the SubSalac set with Swords Dance, Substitute, Waterfall, and Earthquake. This could go in other options because it's not as outclassed--most Water-types are special attackers.

Not too sure about that. Gyarados seems like a much better physical Water type in most situations. Gyarados is just as bulky, faster, has more attack and it also resists the Ground and Fighting attacks that Empoleon falls easily to. In addition, its physical movepool is better, it has an immediate offensive presence, and it doesn't need to rely on getting to low HP to begin sweeping.

 

[KnockYourselfOut - Kyo]

I think the only reason why Physical Empoleon is brought up because it's Hidden Ability is Defiant, but even then, Bisharp serves a better purpose with access to stronger priority, a higher attacking stat (Empoleon has 86 base Physical Attack, while Bisharp has 125 base Physical Attack) and just a overall better movepool. (The best Physical attacks Empoelon has access to are Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Earthquake, AvalLOLche, Brick Break Karate Chop action, Drill Peck through the Heavens, falling rocks, Steel-ish Wings and Claws of Shadow.)
I'd say add that to OO if anything, while mentioning how it's not very viable, because of Gyarados and Bisharp.

 

[horyzhnz]

I'd say add that to OO if anything, while mentioning how it's not very viable, because of Gyarados and Bisharp.

Took a little break, now added the physical Empoleon to OO.