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Empoleon (Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Zystral, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    Empoleon

    Hi C&C. This passed QC here but was left to ruin for about 5 months. Finally, after deciding that it wasn't going to happen, it was put up for reassignment and I decided to write it so that it'd be done ASAP. I have posted this straight to Copyediting because I am changing nothing about the approved sets.

    Status:
    Awaiting GP Checks
    • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •​

    [Overview]

    <p>From the outset, Empoleon doesn't look particularly overwhelming&mdash;its movepool isn't overflowing in terms of offense, and it doesn't have any stats that bring it to the front of the crowd. However, what it does have is a unique typing that grants it an immunity and 11 resistances to some of the most common attacking types, such as Ice, Dragon, Ghost, Rock, Water, and Dark. In contrast, Empoleon only has weaknesses to Ground, Fighting, and Electric. Its high Special Defense also lends it to the job of a defensive Pokemon, but it can be capable of much more. Wielding both Agility and an already high Special Attack stat, Empoleon is an extremely deadly late-game sweeper with just enough coverage to destroy entire teams. While Empoleon may not be used very much since it requires a well-built team, this does not detract from the fact that it can be very effective if played correctly.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPetaya
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Surf
    move 4: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
    item: Petaya Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Empoleon's signature set aims to sweep the opponent late-game with a strategy very rarely deemed effective in high level play: Substitute, Agility, and a pinch Berry. With 240 Spe EVs and an Agility, Empoleon reaches 432 Speed, outspeeding +1 Jolly Gyarados and Dragonite, Choice Scarf Togekiss, +2 Adamant Metagross, and Choice Scarf Heatran. Empoleon can also OHKO Heatran and 2HKO Metagross with Surf, while being able to OHKO Dragonite and 2HKO Togekiss, provided Stealth Rock is in play. The premise of the set is simple; late-game, switch Empoleon in on any one of its many resistances, or after a revenge kill, and use Agility as your opponent switches out to a check. After an Agility, the only Pokemon that can outspeed Empoleon are those with Choice Scarf. Because of this, Empoleon can confidently use Substitute against most Pokemon to not only block incoming status, but also get it into range for Petaya Berry to activate.</p>

    <p>Surf is Empoleon's primary STAB attack, as with a Petaya Berry boost, Hydro Pump's extra power is not necessary. Ice Beam is the prime choice for providing good coverage, most notably against Shaymin, Dragonite, Celebi, and Zapdos. Grass Knot can be used over Ice Beam for taking down Swampert and Suicune, although this allows Dragonite and many Pokemon to check and stop Empoleon.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs and nature focus on maximizing Empoleon's attacking power, while 12 EVs are placed in HP so that it only takes three Substitutes for Petaya Berry to activate at 25% health. 240 Speed EVs are all that's needed, as more outspeeds nothing notable. The last 4 EVs, while functionally negligible, provide the best boost when placed into Empoleon's Defense.</p>

    <p>Since Empoleon can only have one of Ice Beam or Grass Knot, it is necessary to support Empoleon with Pokemon that cover whatever checks it. When running Grass Knot on Empoleon, Choice Scarf Jirachi is a good teammate because it can deal with Grass- and Dragon-types with Ice Punch, though it may not be enough against bulky Shaymin and Celebi. Tyranitar packs a much bigger punch with Crunch, Stone Edge, and Fire Punch, but be wary of Grass- and Ground-type attacks when using it. Blissey is the biggest problem for this set, as it takes little damage even from a boosted Empoleon's attacks. In order to remove Blissey, using a powerful physical attacker, such as Lucario or Breloom, is recommended. Both Lucario and Breloom have access to Swords Dance to boost their Attack to sky-high levels; individually, Lucario has Close Combat and ExtremeSpeed to vanquish the foe, while Breloom resists two of Empoleon's weaknesses and has Spore to put an opponent to sleep. Toxic Spikes deserves a special mention here for being able to weaken and defeat both Blissey and Suicune as Empoleon is repeatedly using Substitute. Many a game has been won by Empoleon setting up on a poisoned and weakened Blissey.</p>

    <p>Empoleon is susceptible to Mach Punch from Breloom and Infernape, especially if the user comes in before Empoleon starts using Substitute. Besides this, even though Empoleon is immune to sandstorm and Toxic Spikes, it must be mindful of any other residual damage, such as Spikes, Leech Seed, and hail. Additionally, while using Substitute to gain the Petaya Berry boost, Empoleon can be phazed with Roar or Whirlwind. As all of these factors will plague Empoleon's ability to sweep, it is best to eliminate these users as soon as possible to ensure a clean late-game sweep.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Grass Knot
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set forgoes the use of Substitute and Petaya Berry to use three attacks, giving it more rounded coverage against a variety of threats. Despite that Life Orb gives less of a boost when compared to Petaya Berry, this set successfully makes use of its ability to set up multiple times during a match. The moveset is fairly self-explanatory; Agility allows Empoleon to boost its Speed to such a degree that it can sweep with its three coverage moves: Surf, Ice Beam, and Grass Knot. Hydro Pump is an option over Surf since the power helps KO Pokemon that Surf would otherwise be unable to, such as Tyranitar.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>252 Special Attack EVs and a Modest nature provide Empoleon with maximum power, and 240 EVs are placed in Speed to outspeed as much as is necessary. The rest of the EVs are spread to optimize Empoleon's defenses as much as is possible with only 16 EVs available. Life Orb is chosen as the item on this set for its immediate boost and because Empoleon isn't using Substitute to activate a pinch Berry.</p>

    <p>This Empoleon will require much more dedicated team support, since it not only lacks Substitute to protect itself from oncoming onslaught, but requires more entry hazard support to score some necessary KOs. Skarmory can provide Spikes support whiling taking on Empoleon's Ground-type weakness. For Stealth Rock support, Hippowdon is more than up for the task due to its mammoth physical bulk and ability to summon a sandstorm, which increases the amount of residual damage done upon the foe. Toxic Spikes from the likes of Roserade and Tentacruel are also very useful for wearing down a majority of Empoleon's checks and counters, such as Blissey, Suicune, Vaporeon, and Celebi. On top of this, this Empoleon is more likely to be sweeping mid-game as opposed to late-game, so punching holes in the opponent's team can also clear way for other sweepers. For example, if Empoleon can take down Gyarados or Bronzong, Swords Dance Gliscor can sweep more easily.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Lead
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Aqua Jet
    move 4: Grass Knot / Ice Beam
    item: Focus Sash / Chople Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Empoleon's typing and respectable movepool allow it to be a great lead. With access to Stealth Rock and a priority move to top it off, it can deal with many common leads effectively. Faster, frail leads can be taken out by a combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet, whereas slower leads can have Stealth Rock set up on them before being taken out. Hydro Pump is used in order to deal as much damage as possible to the likes of Hippowdon and Metagross, whereas Surf can be used for more reliability, as it will still deal with Infernape and Tyranitar. Grass Knot takes care of Swampert and other Water-types that switch in to wall Empoleon. Ice Beam can be used instead of Grass Knot to take down Dragonite and Gliscor, although the latter can still be worn down with Hydro Pump.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The Speed EVs given outpace minimum Speed Skarmory and Metagross, although some Metagross are known to invest a little more to overcome this, so you can do the same. Maximum Special Attack lets Empoleon do as much damage as possible, while the remaining EVs are placed into HP. Focus Sash is the item of choice, since Empoleon has weaknesses to common Fighting- and Ground-type moves and Focus Sash allows Empoleon to do its job. However, since some Pokemon are inclined to carry Fake Out&mdash;most notably Infernape and Hariyama&mdash;a Chople Berry can be used to soften the blow from their next strike, since Focus Sash then becomes unusable. Alternatively, for opposing Pokemon that do not KO, such as Heatran and Metagross, Shuca Berry can be used to weaken the damage from their attacks.</p>

    <p>Depending on the item, Empoleon faces several unfavorable match-ups, like those against Machamp, Roserade, and Infernape. Machamp is able to smack Empoleon hard with DynamicPunch, which inflicts confusion even if Empoleon packs Chople Berry to survive the attack. Roserade can put Empoleon to sleep and then either slam it hard with Leaf Storm or set up Toxic Spikes. Infernape's combination of Fake Out and Close Combat will nearly always KO Empoleon, though this can be mitigated with Chople Berry. Dragonite is a solid partner as it resists the STAB attacks of these unfavorable match-ups and can use Draco Meteor to deal serious damage to them. Dragonite must still beware of Machamp's ability to confuse and access to Ice Punch, however. Tentacruel is another option to consider since it resists Fighting and Fire, has great special bulk to take on Roserade's Leaf Storm, and can Rapid Spin away entry hazards and absorb Toxic Spikes.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Grass Knot
    move 3: Hidden Power Electric / Stealth Rock
    move 4: Roar / Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a superb defensive typing, decent support movepool, and solid defensive stats, Empoleon can do a fine job at supporting its team. Empoleon may lack the bulk of Suicune and Swampert, but its typing allows it to resist some of the most common attacking types and gives it ample opportunities to switch in and KO the opponent or force it out. Surf is a great move to have, and pretty much mandatory on Empoleon. Since Empoleon is no longer sweeping, bulky Water-types like Swampert are going to be more of a threat due to their ability to outstall Empoleon, Roar it away, and otherwise set up. As such, Grass Knot is a must-have for this set. Hidden Power Electric is recommended on the third slot to deal with Water-types such as Gyarados, which takes less damage from Grass Knot. Empoleon can make use of either Roar or Stealth Rock to support its team outside of checking common threats. Roar gives Empoleon a tool to phaze setup sweepers while scouting the opponent's team. Stealth Rock is a great alternative over Hidden Power Electric to weaken the opponent's team gradually; it also combines well with Roar to rack up even more damage over time. Lastly, Ice Beam is usable over Roar to strike troublesome Dragon- and Grass-types such as Dragonite and Shaymin.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs and nature allow for maximum protection from special attacks. All of Empoleon's potential bulk is better off on the special side, since most physical attacks take the form of Ground- and Fighting-type moves, which will maim Empoleon even with defensive investment. Despite this, 68 Def EVs can be taken from Special Defense and placed in Defense in order to survive most Dragonites' Superpower and Offensive Gyarados's Earthquake.</p>

    <p>Since this Empoleon aims to support rather than sweep, having Pokemon that take advantage of weakened special attackers such as Starmie and Togekiss is beneficial. Setup attackers like Metagross and Infernape can be effective, since they will no longer have a Pokemon that can resist their STAB attacks. Alternatively, a Dragon-type such as Dragonite or Flygon is useful to have around since it can do some damage to Suicune or Swampert early on and enable Empoleon to deal with it later.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Sleep Talk / Hidden Power Electric
    nature: Modest
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Empoleon can choose to bypass the turns of setup and start hitting hard right away with Choice Specs equipped. Its high Special Attack in tandem with Choice Specs means that it will be doing huge damage to a majority of your opponent's team. However, due to Choice Specs's side effect, Empoleon will be switching a lot, and while it resists Stealth Rock, it will still be taking damage from Spikes as it switches in. Considering Empoleon isn't a lightning bruiser, it will be taking a hit before it attacks more often than not as well. Fortunately, Empoleon's natural bulk allows it to take these hits and return fire for a KO more often than not.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is the primary option to dish out as much pain as possible on the opponent. Surf is a fine alternative for reliability, though Hydro Pump's power truly is impressive. Ice Beam covers Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Hydro Pump and Surf. Grass Knot destroys Water-types that resist the rest of the set. The most notable niche this set boasts is Sleep Talk. Because of Empoleon's great resistances and decent bulk, it can work as an effective sleep absorber for the team. Sleep Talk allows it to attack while not being locked into one single attacking move. This is also reflected in the EV spread&mdash;that much HP investment means that Empoleon will stay alive for quite some time against neutral attacks. Hidden Power Electric is an alternative over Sleep Talk for the OHKO on Gyarados and 2HKO on Vaporeon with Stealth Rock damage, but achieves little on the set besides that.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Despite the defensive investment, Empoleon appreciates Wish support a lot. Since this set uses Choice Specs, Blissey and Snorlax will be switching in easily. Jirachi can provide Wish support and take out Blissey with continuous Iron Heads, but shares a Ground-type weakness with Empoleon. Jolteon heals itself when switching into Empoleon's Electric-type weakness, although it is also stopped by Blissey and is annoyingly weak to Ground-type attacks as well. For a more reliable way of eliminating Blissey and Snorlax, Tyranitar can be considered to either smack them with Superpower or hit them on their switch out with Pursuit.</p>

    <p>Paralysis support is very handy for this set, since it can allow Empoleon to stay at high health and not take hits from opposing Pokemon. Despite the maximum HP investment, Empoleon's Defense is still sub-par, so having Pokemon such as Celebi and Rotom-A will be extremely helpful when a Ground- or Fighting-type is out on your opponents side. Celebi and Rotom-A can also spread around Thunder Wave to make up for Empoleon's low Speed.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Empoleon needs little in the way of team support due to its resistances and natural defenses. However, if playing an offensive set, especially with Agility, having Spikes and Stealth Rock down can be crucial ensure Empoleon's sweep. Dugtrio can trap and KO Blissey with its STAB Earthquake, and is also immune to Electric-type moves which are one of Empoleon's weaknesses. Powerful Fighting-type Pokemon such as Machamp and Infernape can both deal with Blissey and generally weaken the opponent's team to pave the way for Empoleon's sweep. Toxic Spikes support is immensely valuable on any set of Empoleon's without Grass Knot, mostly for dealing with Suicune, but also for screwing up Blissey and Vaporeon. Good options for Toxic Spikes support are Roserade and Tentacruel, though Forretress isn't a terrible choice either. Paralysis support can also be helpful for sets lacking Agility since Empoleon isn't very fast.</p>

    <p>Defensively, Wish support is paramount, since Empoleon does not have its own method of recovery outside of Rest. While defensive Empoleon invest in HP and aims for greater longevity, it will find itself unable to deal with hard-hitting opponents such as Infernape, Metagross, and Gyarados. Empoleon can still be an effective sponge for specially-based attacks, though, so having a teammate that can sweep more easily with Starmie and Suicune weakened or removed is a good plan. Metagross shares its Ground-type weakness with Empoleon, but appreciates having Suicune taken out. Gliscor is also an option, since it cannot deal with bulky Water-types, so Empoleon can clear a sweep for it easily. Gliscor can also help Empoleon out by laying down Stealth Rock or Taunting defensive Pokemon so that Empoleon has an easier time taking them down.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>Empoleon has a good movepool for what it needs, but lacks many notable other options. With access to Swords Dance to boost its mediocre Attack and a usable physical movepool consisting of Earthquake, Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Drill Peck, Return, and Avalanche, Empoleon can become a neat physical sweeper, but it lacks power and Speed to sweep properly. Yawn can be used to phaze, but Roar is better and Empoleon often can't risk guessing if the opponent will stay in to attack or switch out to dodge the sleep. Flash Cannon is available for a secondary STAB move, though it offers redundant coverage with Empoleon's main moves and is easily resisted. Lastly, Knock Off is usable on defensive sets to remove items, but is essentially useless once the job is done.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Blissey is the best counter to Empoleon for hopefully obvious reasons and cripple it with Thunder Wave or wear it down with Seismic Toss. Empoleon relies on Agility to outspeed and damage the opponent before it can hit back, so faster Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Flygon or Choice Scarf Starmie can get in and do serious damage. As long as they switch in on a revenge kill and Empoleon hasn't used Agility and lacks a Substitute, Jolteon, Rotom-A, and Magnezone can destroy Empoleon with their STAB Electric-type attacks; in addition, Magnezone has Magnet Pull to prevent Empoleon from escaping. Empoleon variants without Ice Beam lose to Dragonite, Shaymin, or Celebi while those without Grass Knot will fall flat against Suicune and Vaporeon.</p>
  2. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    the Sets look fine to me but i would slash- if not put as the main option, Hydro Pump along with Surf on Agility + Three attacks. The increase in damage output is quite noticable just like it is with similar attackers such as LO Starmie. The could be said about Sub Petaya but definitely slash, it needs reliability so surf should be the main option.
  3. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Done. If you have any other comments, feel free to lay them on the table. This went through QC already, but it was mostly arguing over the way SubPetaya works, so I'll take any other thoughts into consideration.
  4. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Looks good.
  5. whistle

    whistle
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  6. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Good post, whistle; I've implemented the fixes that it detailed. Not sure why it was ignored before.
  7. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    I'd probably prefer Ice Beam to be the primary option on sub petaya. IB let's you beat celebi, dragonite and shaymin while doing better against Zapdos. Petaya boosted surf does a TON to starmie, after a little residual damage it's probably OHKOed. IIRC, vaporeon beats you even with Grass Knot so GK is significantly helpful vs Suicune, Swampert (mainly because of the roar potential before you get to petaya range) and slightly more BP vs gyarados. I dunno, Ice Beam seems better to me, but if others disagree I'll be happy to reconsider.

    Also consider this:
    Utility (or some other name, i dunno?)
    Empoleon (M) @ Shuca Berry
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP/152 Def/16 Spd/88 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Roar
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    ---
    Credit to BK for this. I forget exactly what the EVs do but it shouldn't be too hard to find out if needed (I have a feeling they were specialised for mixmence though). I (and others) used this back in the mixmence days and it was really good. It works very well as a 1-time counter/check to many of the most threatening sweepers in the metagame (gyarados, mixed and DD dnites (unless dragonite has SP > EQ, which it probably will), kingdra, suicune are probably the main ones). Also works for cocky flygon's thinking they'll finish you with Earthquake so you can essentially always stay in on Flygon as long as you're above 40ish
  8. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I agree. When the set was previously agreed upon, it was during the Salamence period. Salamence could be KOed by Surf, but Dragonite cannot, and the removal of Mence has brought about a surge in the rise of Grass-types, such as Celebi and Shaymin. Also, you are not guaranteed to beat Suicune even with Grass Knot.

    I also question the choice of item on the lead set. Having used the set with a Chople berry, I do not remember being OHKOed once the whole time I used it. Very few leads are capable of OHKOing Empoleon without Fighting-type moves, though Metagross/CB Azelf are able to OHKO with Explosion, and Mamoswine beats you anyway. The threat of a sash may have contributed to this, but I think Chople berry should probably be the main option over Sash. This lets you beat Fake Out Infernape, and lets you set up SR against Machamp without being left totally helpless.
  9. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Pana, your set seems like a different take on the defensive set that's already listed in the OP. I'll look into those EVs and what they achieve and then discuss them in the AC of that set as an alternate spread.

    Also, I agree with Ice Beam as the primary slash over Grass Knot for SubPetaya. If 3 QC members post here that they approve of the change, I will make it in the OP before writing it up. (Pana already counts as 1)
  10. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    Go for Ice Beam as the main option, Rising_Dusk.
  11. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Celebi and Zapdos are not really that much of an issue (Surf is very close to a 2HKO if I recall correctly and "all empoleon teams should have Tyranitar"), but with Shaymin and Dragonite around it's probably better to use Ice Beam, yeah. It's a shame because it's a lot easier to support a GK Empoleon but then Shaymin and Dragonite had to fuck that all up.

    Sorry again that I didn't get the write up done, but I'm glad it's in more capable hands now.
  12. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Okay, well, with all of the support I have moved Ice Beam to the primary slash for the SubPetaya set. If there are any further comments, they should be made soon because I'll be starting to write this up within the next couple days.
  13. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    If anybody has any comments to make about what I've written, feel free. It is more or less done, but I feel that it's a bit shallow. Ready for GP checks, in any instance.
  14. LizardMan

    LizardMan A mo so true.
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    In the overview, you made a typo. Empoleon doesn't resist fire.

    Another typo is the fact that you said Sub Petaya Empoleon hits 532 speed, while it really hits 432.
  15. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    these issues have been fixed
  16. Echo.

    Echo.

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    Let me just say that this is nicely written. I do, however, have a few corrections/suggestions.

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    [Overview]

    <p>From the outset, Empoleon doesn't look particularly overwhelming - its movepool isn't overflowing in terms of offense, and it doesn't have any stats that bring it to the front of the crowd. However, what it does have is a unique typing granting it 11 resistances and an one immunity to some of the most common attacking types: of Ice, Dragon, Ghost, Rock, Water and Dark. Its high Special Defense also lends it to the job of a defensive Pokemon, but it can be capable of more. Wielding both Agility and an already high Special Attack, Empoleon is an extremely deadly sweeper in the late-game, with just enough coverage to destroy entire teams. It isn't used very much since Empoleon is one of those Pokemon that are is covered naturally when a team is built well, but this does not detract from the fact that it can be effective if played correctly.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPetaya
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Surf
    move 4: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
    nature: Modest
    item: Petaya Berry
    evs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With 240 Spe EVs and an Agility, Empoleon reaches 432 Speed. This outspeeds +1 Jolly Gyarados and Dragonite, Choice Scarf Togekiss, Adamant +2 Metagross, and positive Choice Scarf Heatran. Empoleon can also OHKO Heatran and 2HKO Metagross with Surf, while being able to OHKO Dragonite and 2HKO Togekiss, provided Stealth Rock is in play. The premise of the set is simple; late-game, you can switch Empoleon in on any of its many resistances, or after a revenge-kill, and use Agility as your opponent switches out to their his check. After an Agility, the only things outspeeding Empoleon are Choice Scarfed Starmie, Gengar, and Azelf. Because of this, you can confidently use Substitute to not only whittle down their an opposing Pokemon's PP, but also get Empoleon into range for Petaya Berry to activate. Once the boost is obtained, Empoleon can begin sweeping.</p>

    <p>The EVs maximise maximize Empoleon's attack power, while 12 HP EVs are given so that it only takes 3 Substitutes to let Petaya Berry activate at 25%, as opposed to needing 4 Substitutes and having the berry activate at 1%. 240 EVs are all that's needed, since the last 4 will make no difference, but and are better off being placed into Defense. Surf is the mandatory STAB attack, and due to the Petaya Berry boost, Hydro Pump's subpar accuracy is not needed.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Ice Beam is the prime choice for hitting Shaymin, Dragonite, Celebi, and Zapdos, as well as providing generally good coverage. Grass Knot can be used for taking down Swampert and Suicune, although it's noteworthy that Swampert can Roar you and Suicune can just set up Calm Minds while you are Substituting (however it cannot touch you back unless it carries Hidden Power Electric). Blissey is the biggest problem for this set, being able to take little damage, even from a boosted Surf, while it can hit back with either a status move or just whittle down Empoleon's HP using Seismic Toss.</p>

    <p>Empoleon is considerably susceptible to any super effective priority, namely Mach Punch from Breloon or Infernape, especially if they come in before you start using Substitute. However, Empoleon is immune to Sandstorm and Toxic Spikes, although but must still beware of any other residual damage, such as Spikes, Leech Seed, Stealth Rock or Hail (although Empoleon resists the latter two). As well as this Additionally, while using Substitute to gain the Petaya boost, Empoleon can be phazed with Roar or Whirlwind, so it is a better idea to leave Empoleon until late-game or ensure their the opponent's phazer is down.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Agility + 3 Attacks
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Grass Knot
    nature: Modest
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 240 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is an alternative to the above, and it has its advantages and disadvantages. It foregoes forgoes the use of Substitute and Petaya Berry to be able to use 3 attacks, giving it more rounded coverage against different threats, and while it replaces the Petaya Berry with a Life Orb, the damage output is still lower. As well as this Additionally, it is more vulnerable to attacks, since it no longer has the protective buffer of a Substitute. In fact, being open to attacks, combined with the added recoil of Life Orb, will reduce Empoleon's longevity. As well as this, Empoleon is open to Thunder Wave since it's not longer behind a Substitute, although after an Agility it should be attacking as much as possible anyway, so hopefully the opponent can be KOed before they he can retaliate.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This Empoleon will require much more dedicated team support, since it not only lacks Substitute to protect it from oncoming onslaught, but requires more entry hazard support to score the KOs, since doesn't have as much power as the SubPetaya set. Spikes support are is almost necessary, as are is Stealth Rock. Sandstorm can also be helpful, provided the opponent isn't immune to it or has a Rock-type. This time, Hydro Pump is an option, since the power is necessary to take down other threats. On top of this, this Empoleon is more likely to be sweeping mid-game as opposed to late-game, so punching holes in the opponent's team can also clear way for other sweepers. The EVs are the same, since the Speed maintains a healthy number before and after Agility, while again, Special Attack is maximized and the rest is put into bulk.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Lead
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Aqua Jet
    move 4: Grass Knot / Ice Beam
    nature: Modest
    item: Focus Sash / Chople Berry
    evs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Empoleon's typing also allows it to be a great lead. With access to Stealth Rock and a priority move to top it off, it can deal with many common leads. Faster, frail leads can be taken out by a combination of Hydro Pump + Aqua Jet, where as slower leads can have Stealth Rock set up on them before being taken out. Hydro Pump is used in order to deal as much damage as possible to the likes of Hippowdon and Metagross, whereas Surf can be used for more reliabiliy reliability, as it will still deal with Infernape and Tyranitar. Grass Knot deals with Swampert and any other Water-type. Ice Beam can be used instead of Grass Knot to take down Dragonite or Gliscor, although the latter can be worn down with Hydro Pump.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs given outpace minimum Speed Skarmory and Metagross, although some Metagross are known to invest a little more to overcome this, so you can do the same. Maximum Special Attack lets Empoleon do as much damage as possible, while the remaining EVs are placed into HP. Focus Sash is the item of choice, since Empoleon's common weaknesses to Fighting and Ground are common attacking types, so a Focus Sash is needed in order for Empoleon to have a chance of striking back. However, since some Pokemon are inclined to carry Fake Out (such as Infernape), a Chope Berry can be used to soften the blow from their next strike, since Focus Sash then becomes unusable. Alternatively, for opposing Pokemon who do not KO, such as Heatran and Metagross, Shuca Berry can be used to soften the damage from their attacks.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Grass Knot
    move 3: Hidden Power Electric / Stealth Rock
    move 4: Roar / Ice Beam
    nature: Calm
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Empoleon's stats lend it to a more defensive role, backed up by its great typing; while it's defensive movepool isn't the best, it can still support the team. Grass Knot is now a higher priority attack more highly recommended., Since Empoleon is no longer sweeping, bulky Water-types like Swampert are going to be more of a threat, due to their ability to outstall Empoleon, Roar it away, and set up their own team support. The use of Roar and Stealth Rock allow Empoleon to also aid the team. Empoleon may lack the bulk of Suicune and Swampert, but its typing allows it to resist some of the most common attacking types, such as Fire, Ice, and Dragon, meaning it has ample opportunities to switch-in and KO the opponent, if not force it out completely. However, some offensive Pokemon do run mixed sets, and Empoleon will have problems with even un-STABed Earthquakes, so be careful about what it is switched into.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs and nature allow for maximum protection from special attacks. All of Empoleon's potential bulk is better off here, since most physical attacks take the form of Ground- and Fighting-type moves, which hit Empoleon for super effective damage, anyway. Roar is the primary option for phazing out threats that have either set up, or for temporarily removing something that troubles your team;. Ice Beam can be used for taking out Dragonite and Flygon, although both of them are known to carry physical attacks, so be wary. Stealth Rock can replace Hidden Power Electric, but the ability to take out special attackers such as Togekiss, opposing Empoleon, and Starmie may benefit teams more, considering Stealth Rock users are in high abundance.</p>

    <p>Since this Empoleon looks to support more than to sweep, having Pokemon that enjoy the removal of strong special attackers such as Starmie and Togekiss will allow you to take advantage of the holes in your opponent's team. Set-up attackers like Metagross or Infernape can be effective, since they will no longer have a Pokemon that can resist their STAB attacks and threaten a KO in return. Alternatively, a Dragonite or Flygon of your own can be beneficial since they can attack early on and do some damage to the Suicune or Swampert they will lure in, which Empoleon can deal with before the Dragon-type cleans up the team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Sleep Talk / Hidden Power Electric
    nature: Modest
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Empoleon can choose to bypass the turns of set-up and start hitting hard straight away thanks to Choice Specs. It's high Special Attack means that it will be doing noticeable damage to a lot of your opponent's teams. However, due to Choice Specs' side-effect, Empoleon will be switching a lot, and while it resists Stealth Rock, it will still be taking damage as it switches in, as well as also taking Spikes damage. Considering Empoleon isn't a lightning bruiser, it will be taking a hit before it attacks, more often than not. However, its reasonable bulk means that it can survive an attack and strike back at the opponent.</p>

    <p>The most notable thing about the set is Sleep Talk. Because of Empoleon's great resistances and decent bulk, it can work as an effective Sleep absorber for the team. Sleep Talk allows it to still attack while not being locked into one single attacking move. This is also reflected in the EV spread - little Speed is actually invested, while as much HP as possible means Empoleon can stay alive as long as possible.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Despite the defensive investment, Empoleon doesn't actually carry Rest or any form of healing, so Wish support would be greatly appreciated. As well as this, Since this set uses Choice Specs often, Blissey and Snorlax will be switching in easily, especially if Empoleon is using an attacking move instead of Sleep Talk. Jirachi can provide Wish support and take out Blissey with continuous Iron Heads, but shares a Ground-type weakness. Jolteon heals itself when switching into Empoleon's Electric-type weakness, although it is also stopped by Blissey. However, it can use Charge Beam and Baton Pass to power up Empoleon even more. In fact, +1 Hydro Pump has a small chance to 2HKO Blissey with Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>Hydro Pump is preferred for its power, although Surf can also be used for its accuracy. Sleep Talk can also be replaced for Hidden Power Electric to combat the likes of Suicune and Vaporeon if Sleep doesn't concern you. Paralysis support is also handy for this set, since it can allow Empoleon to stay at high health and not take hits from opposing Pokemon. Despite the maximum HP investment, Empoleon's Defense is still subpar, so having something such as Celebi or Rotom-A will be extremely helpful when something with a Ground- or Fighting-type move comes into play.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Empoleon needs little in the way of team options due to its resistances and natural defenses. However, if playing an offensive set, especially the Agility + 3 Attacks, having Spikes and Stealth Rock down can be cruicial crucial to help Empoleon score OHKOs or 2HKOs on the opponent. Entry Hazards are also important for the other offensive sets, but less so due to their higher power thanks to Petaya Berry/Choice Specs. However, any offensive set will be stopped cold by Blissey or any specially defensive wall. Dugtrio can trap and KO Blissey with its STAB Earthquake, as well as being and is also immune to Electric-type moves, which are one of Empoleon's weaknesses. Infernape can play the role of a mixed wallbreaker, using special attacks to lure Blissey in before hitting it with Close Combat. Empoleon also resists the Water-, Psychic-, and Flying-type moves that Infernape is weak to, despite sharing a Ground-weakness. Paralysis support can also be helpful for sets lacking Agility, since Empoleon isn't very fast, and if there is no investment in HP or Special Defense, Empoleon may be wounded fatally before it can attack.</p>

    <p>Defensively, Wish support is paramount, since Empoleon does not have its own method of recovery outside of Rest. While defensive Empoleon invests in HP and has more longevity, it will find itself unable to deal with hard-hitters, especially those such as Infernape, Metagross, or Gyarados, since it will still take hefty damage, if not get OHKOed, from these attackers, yet it has lost the ability to strike back offensively. However, Empoleon can still be an effective sponge for specially-based attacks, so having a teammate that can sweep easily with a lack of Pokemon such as Starmie or Suicune will be beneficial. Metagross shares its Ground-type weakness with Empoleon, but appreciates having Suicune taken out. Gliscor is also an option, since it cannot deal with Bulky Water-types, so Empoleon can clear a sweep for it easily. Gliscor can also help Empoleon out by laying down Stealth Rock or Taunting defensive Pokemon so that Empoleon has an easier time taking them down.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>Empoleon has access to Swords Dance to boost its mediocre attack, but its movepool lacks power and coverage to score any notable damage. Offensively, Empoleon's other options pale in comparison to the listed Surf, Hydro Pump, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power Electric. Earthquake, Aqua Jet, Waterfall, and Drill Peck can be used for Swords Dance, but as said, Swords Dance is poor. Defensively, Yawn, Roar, and Stealth Rock are Empoleon's only options for support. Yawn can be used, but often when it comes to Empoleon, it is better to remove the threat offensively rather than forcing it out.</p>

    <p>Empoleon's EV spreads are quite solid. The only leeway that can be given is that the HP EVs can be changed if your IV is not 31 for some reason or other. So long as the number is divisible by 4, any necessary EVs can be pulled from SpA. Usually, 240 Speed is all that's needed after an Agility, and if Empoleon isn't running Agility, then little speed is needed, since the only notable things that are slower than Empoleon are Machamp and Hippowdon, both of whom cannot outspeed Empoleon without concentrated investment. Empoleon's Special Defense is better than its physical Defense, but investing in HP is the most effective since its HP is naturally lower than its Special Defense. However, more EVs can be taken out of HP and SpA if you wish for Empoleon to survive certain attacks, such as Choice Specs Kingdra's Draco Meteor.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Blissey is a natural counter to Empoleon due to its high Special Defense. Empoleon can only Roar it away, and Blissey can paralyse paralyze it or use Seismic Toss to wear it down. Kingdra takes little damage from any move Empoleon can throw at it, but it can't do much back except for Hidden Power Electric. Empoleon relies on Agility to outspeed and damage the opponent before it can hit back, but anything with a strong and relatively fast Earthquake, such as Gyarados, Flygon, or Tyranitar, can KO Empoleon easily. Jolteon, Rotom-A and Magnezone will destroy Empoleon with their STAB Electric-type attacks, especially as Magnezone has Magnet Pull to prevent Empoleon from escaping.</p>
  17. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    While I disagree with one or two of your checks in the first set or so, they did at least point out a few problems which I have fixed in my own way.
    Most of your other changes have been taken into account.
    Thanks!
  18. Komodo

    Komodo I have a custom title?
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Messages:
    4,013
    This is for Gen 4, DPPt and HGSS
  19. Berserker Lord

    Berserker Lord unreliable analysis writer.

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
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    1,215
    Silly PK Gaming, this is the 4th Gen. Nattorei doesn't exist there.
  20. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    Jesus I can't believe I made that mistake 0_0.

    Sorry Zystral!!!
  21. Echo.

    Echo.

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    213
    Hi.

    I suppose this was one of our points of disagreement in my previous post, but I really think you should change the following sentence:

    "late-game, you can switch Empoleon in on any of its many resistances, or after a revenge-kill, and use Agility as your opponent switches out to their check."

    I originally suggested that you should exchange the word "their" with "his," but I suppose you didn't agree. I'm going to go ahead and suggest it again, as using "their" in that context is grammatically incorrect. Because the subject you are referring to is singular, "your opponent," you cannot use "their," as it is plural. You must use "his," as we are speaking of only one opponent, or change the last bit to "your opponents switch out to their checks," completing the pluralized phrase.

    tl;dr: I think you should make that change and I'm worrying about little issues :)
  22. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    The reason I avoided this was due to "his". Call me politically over-correct, but I personally dislike gender-specific terms, even when pokemon can only be one gender.

    I'll change it to "as your opponent switches out to a check.".
  23. Echo.

    Echo.

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
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    The gender itself is immaterial, I was just aiming to fix the grammatical error.

    That works. Using "his/her" is also fine. Thanks (:
  24. Komodo

    Komodo I have a custom title?
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Messages:
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    Show Hide


    Red is remove
    Blue is change

    Mostly Poke-grammar mistakes and a typo or two.
  25. Frieddimsum

    Frieddimsum

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2010
    Messages:
    133
    Hi guys,
    Regarding the subPetaya set, wouldn't it be a better option for empoleon to carry Brine instead of surf?
    Brine is a move with 10pp, 100% accuracy and 65base power. However when empoleons damage falls below 50%, the base power doubles to 130 Base Power. Thats a significant increase over surf.
    I believe this fits in with the subPetaya set seeing as you aim to substitute to obtain a torrent boost and activate your petaya berry. Agility fixes speed problems and you sweep. The SubPetaya tactic places you in low health so using brine to take advantage of that is pretty good.
    130 special STAB coming of a petaya boosted Empoleon is something to fear.
    If you think this may be viable tell me and ill try come up with some numbers. Sorry if this doesnt belong here

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