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DPP OU Enclose, Murciélago! [Ranked #1]

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by reyscarface, Jul 29, 2010.

  1. reyscarface

    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusdefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Dec 9, 2008
    There are two types of fights. As we put our lives in battle, we must be able to distinguish between the two.
    The fight to protect life, and the fight to protect pride.

    - Jushiro Ukitake, Captain of the 13th Division.

    Enclose, Murciélago!



    Man has it been a while since I posted a team here, if I recall correctly the last one was Heavenly Star, a bulky offense team based on synergy to work. You may know me as a reckless offense player, but lately i’ve been into some other stuff (dont wrong think this please). Basically, one day, when Latias was still around, a thought came to me after being slumping in Standard OU for a while. What if I change my style for a bit? Seemed kind of hard to completely change how you play from one day to the other, but I was willing to take this shot. This team, which may be my most succesful OU team, is based on the principle of layers and defense, call it “semistall” if you want (although I know some people rage at that term). Anyways, im basically retiring this, but feel free to shoot suggestions, as im sure theres some stuff that can be changed.

    This team peaked #1 on the OU ladder, breaking 1710 CRE (and still rising!), with a mean rating of 1890+ and a Deviation of less than 50 on the account “Espada Ulquiorra”, it also went undefeated R1 in the World Cup of Pokemon. As of today it has lost very very few matches, making it the most solid and consistent team ive used.

    ~Shikai~(Team Building Process)

    The team you are about to see indepth is actually a revamp of an older team, which was made in the Latias era. This is how it all started. Way before in time, during the Manaphy & Latias Suspect Test, I built a team which had the same and opposite (ironic hunh) purposes. Same because they both ended abusing layers, opposite because back then it was a team completely composed by choice users and a layer setter, but it had something singular, it didnt have a single scarf, it was all bands and specs, making it completely deadly when played right (it peaked #1 too! /brag). Thanks to the knowlegde I got from this team, I decided to use the same lead, and one of still by today is one of my favorites, Forretress.


    After picking the main support team player, it was time to make a core. This was possibly the hardest part to do, considering the immense amount of options there were. I decided to base this on resistances mainly, since I did not have any experience with defensive teams! When you see Forretress the obvious thing you must cover are Fire attacks and strong special attacks, and Forry gives you back a Dragon resistance, which was extremely important, therefore my choice was quite easy compared to the others, Latias had to enter the fray.


    After having these 2 pokemons, I decided to leave the typings away for a moment and get something fundamental, a spin blocker. Main choices were Dusknoir, Spiritomb, Gengar and the obvious Rotom-A. Dusknoir and Spiritomb are way too unusable to be viable in this metagame, and while Gengar really enjoyed those layers to cause damage, it was too frail to fit with the theme of the team, therefore I decided to be completely unique unlike other stall players who use the same stuff over and over again and picked Rotom-A!


    I think blue did wonders with the colors of the team so I picked the Water version of Rotom (nah not really youll check out why later). After having my Spin Blocker, it was time to go back on resistances, therefore I had to check what was up. As of then, the only typings that looked like they could give trouble were Ghost and Dark. Dark seemed to make little sense considering the stuff that carries them are Pursuiters, which would hurt my mons either way no matter if I had resistances, so I decided to concentrate on Ghost. It seemed I had a massive weakness to opposing Latias, and after a bit of research I decided to put quite the rare pokemon on the team, considering it brought a Ghost immunity and also could beat a Latias 1 on 1, even Specs variants, Togekiss!


    After adding Togekiss to the team, another weakness appeared fastly, Ice. This didnt seem that worrying considering most Ice attacks are special and unSTABed and my mons weak to them had huge bulk, but I did not want to take risks. I also lacked something I think that is a rule to have on a team, a bulky water. It looked like Gyarados could be an asshole to the team getting in on Forry, and the same applied for Kingdra and Tyranitar. I decided to go for a pokemon to stop the first 2 and take care of the last in case of a huge emergency. Also another Infernape check worked wonders, Vaporeon entered the fray!


    To finish, I decided not to use a Scarfed Rotom, considering Vaporeon and Latias could take care of most Gyarados, and the team itself looked comfortable vs threats that Rotom covers with a Scarf. Therefore, what this team lacked was a revenge killer. Tyranitar seemed like a big problem at the moment, and I could not add a Flygon considering it not only gave me another Ice weakness, but also a horrible Dragon weakness with only 1 resistance. A rock resistance was needed, as was a dragon one, therefore I decided to use the most annoying mon to face, Jirachi!


    And thats it, thats how I finished my team. It seemed to be perfect, as nothing really troubled me. But as the time passed, Togekiss just wasnt holding her weight on the team. It did give me an amazing support with Heal Bell and was a good Latias / Mixmence check, but I needed something more. Not mentioning that Togekiss needing Thunder Wave to “sweep” and Vaporeon having Toxic didnt help her case. Instead, I decided to go ahead and think of a replacement, and all of a sudden it came, a Heatran. But not a common one, a Rest Talk Heatran. Able to take on status for the team and be a huge annoyance to stall teams, it seemed to fit perfectly!


    This was the team I used during the Latias metagame, and my favorite one as well, it had its problems but it was really easy to play with, earning me a OU win in SPL on the first week (lol this team went 1-0 in SPL so you could say it was unbeaten too :o). Sadly, Latias was removed by HATERS, making this team completely unusable. There was a huge time where I dedicated my time to offensive teams, although they seemed to not work well. I like to call it as if “I was on a slump” to make myself feel better and not like a loser, but yeah, you be the judge. After I got traded in SPL by HATERS, I thought it would be cool to let those HATERS know that I still had my touch, so I decided to revamp this team for the Mence/no Mence metagame, and so it began. Obviously Latias had to go, therefore I decided to start from there. Without Latias I lost an absurd amount of resistances, a Dragon mon, and a counter to also a lot of Pocket Monsters. As of then, Vaporeon and Heatran had Toxic, and Latias as Roar was not needed due to Latias covering both CM Jirachi and Suicune. This had to be changed, and the only Dragon pokemon that fit this theme was, at least in my mind, a Scarfed Flygon.


    After adding a Scarf Flygon to the team, having a Scarf on Jirachi was completely redundant, considering I already had a revenge killer. Now, it was time to get a replacement for Jirachi, one that could support the team with resistances and mainly syngery. I was really stuck at this moment, but I spoke to panamaxis about the idea of revamping the old team (he already knew it, as spoke to him about it back then in SPL), and he thought the idea of keeping Jirachi with a different set was good. He recommended me a set and thats how the team ended.
    During the Salamence metagame this team was very solid, but Salamence was a huge bitch since I had to try to guess if it was DD Mence or Mixmence, since Mixmence was handled by Heatran, and DD mence by Vaporeon to an extent. This completely changed when Mence got banned by some more HATERS, making the team solid to a whole new level and hardly weak to anything.

    Without more to add, here is the team, Enclose, Murciélago!

    (Because everything is better with Double Rainbow)


    8th Division - In charge of military support.

    Forretress @ Leftovers ♦♦♦Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef
    Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Payback

    Forretress may be my favorite lead on OU, and for a good damn reason, it can set up against a vast amount of other leads, come in later because of its massive resistances, and also provide spin support and a counter to stuff like no HP Fire Gengar.
    In early game I really play cautiously with Forry, since layers are the main thing of this team, losing the set upper would be a huge hit to how it works. Mid game, I play it to the opposite, mostly recklessly without switching too much and just caring of getting either those layers missing or removing my opponent’s. Finally, on the late game I just use it as sacking fodder, since getting swept late game is more factible than either early or mid game, and Forry proves to be quite the set up fodder for offensive teams sometimes.
    The EVs are from the Latias metagame, where Forries were supposed to run Special Defense in order to take on Specs Draco Meteors. Although both Latias and Mence are gone, I decided to keep this spread because youd be surprised how amazing it is to set up on defensive and Shadow Ball locked Rotom, most Vaporeons, Suicunes, Jirachis, Celebis, Shaymins, and the likes. The moveset talks by itself, using double layer there to hurt switch ins as most as possible, with Rapid Spin support, and Payback to hit ghosts. I have thought of using Gyro Ball in order to not only still hurt Gengar badly (in fact it hurts it more than Payback), but also hitting stuff like Flygon harder, yet Payback still appears as the most important option because of 1 thing, Rotom. I forgot something, Forry is usually the mon that goes to sleep against Brelooms (god I hate them) because it cant hurt them much and I consider this to be part of his job.

    Heres what I do against the top 15 leads, easy/manageable ones are in Green (like Ulquiorra’s Cero fuck yeah!) and problematic ones will be in Red (like Shinji’s Cero fuck yeah!).
    Lead Matchup (open)

    • [​IMG] - Azelf: Azelf is one of the leads I hate with a passion, because they can carry such an immense amount of sets that I always have to switch out no matter what. The good thing is I have Heatran, who 2HKOs Azelf with Lava Plume and can get a boost from Flamethrower, but still, being winning 6-5 is completely neutered by the fact I dont have layers and my opponent has SR.

    • [​IMG] - Aerodactyl: Easy stuff, I always go for SR up, since my opponent could not Taunt me due to the risk of Gyro Ball. If it Taunts me I just play around Rapid Spinning his SR until the Taunt wears off, then Flygon goes in and forces it to switch out due to the threat of Stone Edge or Vaporeon gets in and lets Aero get rocks at the cost of its life. Its almost the same as Azelf, but Aero cant hurt me like Azelf does, who Explodes on Heatran for a lot of damage.

    • [​IMG] - Swampert: Probably the best matchup, free layers++ and free Rapid Spin too!

    • [​IMG] - Machamp: Man is this thing a bitch. I have only a 25% chance to get SR + Spikes, and I do not like those odds, so I bring in my Rotom on the Dynamicpunch, go to Jirachi on the Payback and then flinch it, although these fuckers look like they never flinch.

    • [​IMG] - Metagross: Almost as good as Swampert except it can Explode for an amazing (lol) amount of 70% or so, free layers and spin as well.

    • [​IMG] - Jirachi: Jirachi is a bitch most definitely as a flincher, but Forry can take flinches. Usually these things are Trick Scarfers, so Flygon turn 1 to take the Trick and then U-Turn to an appropiate counter to whatever they bring, which is usually set up fodder for Forry, like Swampert.

    • [​IMG] - Infernape: Better face Ape as a lead rather than a sweeper, but the danger is still there with the Fire move, so Vaporeon goes in, takes whatever, and then beats it with Wish + Protect + Surf. Id call it problematic because it gets SR and I dont, but it doesnt do much besides that.

    • [​IMG] - Ninjask: Haha Ninjask. Get up SR on their sub, switch to Vaporeon on their Swords Dance, and Roar on their switch in.

    • [​IMG] - Roserade: HP Fire ones can hurt Forry, so I go to Heatran to take the Sleep, then I Sleep Talk to scare them a bit. It will get Toxic Spikes up and I wont, but since only Vappy minds them, its not such a problem.

    • [​IMG] - Hippowdon: Did you read Swampert? Well this hits a bit harder but free layers++ as well.

    • [​IMG] - Tyranitar: This guys can be a trouble if it has Flamethrower or Fire Blast. If its the usual Chesto Tyranitar that Philip popularized then I get at least 2 free layers, but I do not like those risks so I go to Vaporeon. A tricky one indeed.:

    • [​IMG] - Heatran: Well it OHKOs Forry, so im forced to bring in Vaporeon who handles it pretty well, they usually switch out, so my strategy is using wish on their switchin, and then bringing in Forry to get layers on. Life Orb leads are a complete pest since they 2HKO Vaporeon.

    • [​IMG] - Smeargle: Go to Heatran on the Spore, bring in Forry, free layers++ while spinning his.

    • [​IMG] - Uxie: I havent seen Trick Scarf Uxie in a good while, therefore I just start getting layers up and spin his rocks if I can. If it Tricks me I go to Flygon and U-Turn back to Forry or just instantly to Heatran, although sometimes when im feeling ballsy and not afraid of TWave I go to Jirachi and get a free sub.

    • [​IMG] - Starmie: Quite possibly the worst lead to face. I Payback it to get some damage, followed by going to Vaporeon and hope it doesnt use Tbolt, and then go to Flygon on the Tbolt to then U-Turn and finish it. It manages to show half my team in a few turns, requires risky switches and also leaves Forry weakened without layers, so its very problematic. Still, killing it early so I dont have to show Rotom early to block spin is great I must say.

    Forretress is named after the 6th Espada Grimmjow because, in the anime/manga, Grimmjow is insanely perseverant and wont give up before he gets what he wants, which was beating Ichigo, but for the purposes of this team, Forretress wont give up trying to get layers!

    9th Division - In charge of the Defense of Soul Society.

    Heatran @ Leftovers ♣♣♣ Shinji Hirako
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP/128 Spd/132 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Lava Plume
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Roar

    Look, whenever you ask me what is my favorite Heatran set or what is the best Heatran set in my opinion, you will know the answer, that one above is THE Heatran set. How it is so uncommon is beyond me, but man this thing is one of those pokemons you would call “anti metagame”. Steel typing is amazing, but couple it with fire and you got a big Celebi, Shaymin, Scizor, Zapdos, Rotom, Blissey, and more, counter. This guy used to have Toxic back in the day because things like Vaporeon, Suicune, Flygon, Gyarados, and Swampert loved to switch in, but with the removal of Latias, I decided to change it with Roar, which makes this Heatran my main defense against things like Calm Mind Jirachi (one of the things Latias covered) and also an amazing shuffler. Things usually go like this, I bring in Heatran on whatever, they switch expecting a fire move, and they just get roared eating layer damage and staying on a tough position too, which makes a lot of mindgames begin, and of those mindgames none are risky for me.
    The EV spread with Calm nature gives me enough bulk to the extent of not being 2HKOd by things like a Suicune Surf, which is really appreciated if Vaporeon goes down. Also it isnt 3HKOd by Rotom and Zapdos Thunderbolt, so you can imagine how much bulk this friend has. The speed is enough to beat 0 Speed Suicune, most Taunt Skarmories, Roar Gyarados,Modest Empoleon and Magnezone with max speed and Adamant Tyranitar. The moveset is also self explanatory. Picked Lava Plume over Flamethrower because a 50%~ chance of burning after 2 moves is awesome, plus now I can abuse the burn since I lack Toxic. It also helps as a pseudo counter to Gyarados, Tyranitar, and Kingdra who switch in thinking they are completely safe. Roar I already explained, phazing and Layer purposes, and Sleep Talk makes this thing durable enough to last a whole game even if it appears on the first 3 turns.
    Togekiss used to have this spot in order to beat Mixmence, Latias and be the status helper, but SpDef Tran took those way better, added key resistances, played much more easily and also became the status absorber.

    Some Calcs:

    Dem Calcs (open)
    0 SpAtk Vaporeon Surf vs Heatran - (43.64% - 51.43%)
    0 SpAtk Suicune Surf vs Heatran - (36.36% - 43.64%)
    +2 0 SpAtk Suicune Surf vs Heatran - (73.25% - 86.23%)
    +6 0 SpAtk Jirachi Thunderbolt vs Heatran - (52.99% - 62.34%)
    +6 +252 SpAtk Jirachi Thunderbolt vs Heatran - (73.51% - 86.49%)
    +252 Attack Gyarados Waterfall vs Heatran - (69.09% - 81.56%)
    0 SpAtk Zapdos Thunderbolt vs Heatran - (24.16% - 28.83%)
    252 SpAtk Rotom-A Thunderbolt vs Heatran - (26.49% - 31.17

    So yeah kiss his ass right now.

    Heatran was named after Shinji, the coolest character of Bleach, because Heatran is an all around pimp Pokemon as is the Fire type, besides, Shinji’s Cero is red so lets call it Flamethrower! Oh and his Hollow Mask also looks like Heatran’s face... somewhat.

    2nd Division - Special Operations division, in charge of the murder and punishment of rule breakers.

    Flygon @ Choice Scarf ♠♠♠ Byakuya Kuchiki
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earthquake
    - U-turn
    - Outrage

    When making this team I definitely needed a Scarfed Revenge Killer, as do most teams. You may think this Flygon is just a Revenger, but in reality, I like to call it the team’s sweeper. Youd be very fucking surprised at how this Flygon literally sweeps late game. Mence and Latias going out hurt this team in the sense it made Infernape & Breloom more common, which are troublesome mons, but they also did a blessing for the team, their removal caused a drastic change in how teams are built. Its going to be weird you see a time with more than 2 steels, and commonly one of those is a Lead. From my experience using this team, Steels come out very very early on the game, trying to stop Rotom or Jirachi, maybe sometimes Forretress in the case of Magnezone. The deal with this is that if I have Layers up, which is almost always, the only thing I have to do is play with 5 mons all the game tanking hits, and bringing Flygon sometimes to U-Turn out inflicting more Layers damage. By the end, Flygon shall easily sweep with Outrage because his counters are damaged/dead, and this strategy has won me a lot of games that looked lost. You could say Flygon is the player of the team that loves Layers the most. Also Earthquake is amazing with no Latias / Mence, since I can actually spam it a bit without the fear of DD Mence setting up on my face or CM Latias doing the same! Fire Blast is for Skarmory and Forry mainly, Skarm is 2HKOd after SR which helps a lot in key situations, and Forry is OHKOd which is amazing when you pull it off. U-Turn is an obvious move. I have considered Thunderpunch or Stone Edge on Flygon, but hitting Skarm badly is helpful in many scenarios that I just cannot pass that. Flygon is my main answer to eveything with “Dragon Dance” in its name, as well as things like Infernape which need to be EQd to kill them, Agility Metagross and Empoleon, and is a valuable team player due to its ability to get in on stuff like Earth Power from Shaymin and Celebi. All around, its usually the man who cleans the opponent’s team.

    Flygon is named after Captain Byakuya because both are well known for being speed freaks. Flygon with a Scarf is one of the fastest mons in the metagame, while Byakuya is possibly the fastest Captain in Soul Society. Also Byakuya is awesome.

    5th Division - Specialized in Kidoh (Magic spells based on Spiritual Energy)

    Rotom-w @ Choice Specs ••• Ulquiorra Schiffer
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Trick
    - Hydro Pump

    I bet when you read the Team Building Process of this team, when I mentioned Rotom, you were all “blech that damp Rest Talk Rotom again... so unoriginal...”. Well let me tell you something, this set is the best Rotom set ive ever used in my POKECAREER. Again, remember when I mentioned a team of choice in the Manaphy metagame? Thats where Rotom comes from. I needed a spin blocker, and Gengar was too damn weak, so using Rotom seemed cool. Then I decided to slap specs just because I felt like it, and man, this thing is a beast with layers. Not only it stops spin like a pro (and does it even better due to Wish support from Vap), but it hits like a god damn truck. Hydro Pump OHKOs Heatran, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, and all the bunch, and it also OHKOs standard Scarf Tyranitar with Spikes and SR up, yeah, its that strong. Thunderbolt doesnt get behind, it 2HKOs even the bulkiest Jirachi, Scarf Tyranitar, every Forretress and Heatran (up to 75% damage offensive ones), it does around 80% to standard Band Scizor, and it even 2HKOs Scarf Rotoms! Oh but the best part isnt all that, but Thunderbolt has an inmense chance of OHKOing a Lucario after Stealth Rock, so this thing also acts as a Lucario counter, it also 2HKOs a Suicune that has +1, in case Vaporeon fails somehow. Also everything with similar bulk to Lucario or less will be OHKOd by Thunderbolt even if its Neutral. Shadow Ball is used for things like Shaymin, as even Max HP Shaymin is 2HKOd after Stealth Rock; Celebi is a OHKO, it OHKOs even the bulkiest Rotom, hits grounds when I dont feel like risking Hydro Pump, and the likes. Trick is for Blissey and Snorlax, although I barely use it, between Roars from Heatran on Blissey/Lax and layer damage, Rotom can usually KO them when they try to get in on them. Trick also works as an “oh shit” button in case a last mon set upper tries to beat me.
    Although I already said Flygon acts as a cleaner, this thing is huge part of Flygon working. Due to being able to hurt everything that switches in, Flygon will have a much easier time. Also if Flygon is the cleaner, this thing is the Sweeper really, since its the mon that takes advantage of Layers the most.
    Also since im a big bitch if this set suddenly gets any rise of use its because of me ok!?!?!?! Nah, im just kidding.

    Rotom is named Ulquiorra because not only both are fucking strong and hard to take down, but they both throw black energy balls or something and... who gives a shit they are just amazing.

    4th Division - In charge of healing and recovering.

    Vaporeon @ Leftovers ▲▲▲ Toshiro Histugaya
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 180 HP/252 Def/36 Spd/40 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Surf
    - Roar

    Aaahh good ol’ reliable Vappy. Actually not so old, the first time ever I used a Vaporeon on a team was on the Latias version of this one, so im kind of a newb with it! Vaporeon was picked as the team’s bulky water for a good amount of reasons, first, it has recovery, something that was a must. Second, it can pass around the Wishes healing the team. Third, it has a phazing move. Fourth, Vaporeon is cute. When I first made the team Vaporeon, like Heatran, had Toxic, not Roar. With the byebye of Latias, I was left without a Suicune counter, specially Rest ones, therefore I had to remove Toxic and add Roar, and I do not regret it, this thing spreads passive damage around like noone!
    Vaporeon is my main counter to other Waters, being able to tank Suicune, Swampert, other Vaporeons, and even Gyarados. Its also a reliable check to Kingdra, specially if I havent showed Roar, since the sub just to take a lot of damage. Also, even though its not really a counter, Vaporeon really helps me against something that would otherwise fuck me over badly, Life Orb Gengar. Those Gengars can prove annoying if they have both Focus Blast and HP Fire, but Vaporeon is only 3HKOd by Shadow Ball, making it a reliable switch. Same applies for Heatrans, since they can really hurt everything in my team, except mighty Vaporeon, who comes in and threatens to KO with Surf, just to phaze them away and spread passive damage. All in all, Vaporeon is an awesome mon in this team.

    Vaporeon and Hitsugaya have so much in common, they are both cute and little, yet very damn strong and intelligent. Also, Vaporeon can shoot ice, and Hitsugaya’s element is Ice... so.... yeah! AND THEY BOTH HAVE SPIKY HAIR!

    11th Division - Hand to Hand combat.

    Jirachi @ Leftovers ▼▼▼ Ichigo Kurosaki
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 44 HP/212 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Fire Punch
    - Toxic
    - Substitute

    Last but not least, the annoyer of the team and also an all around great pokemon. Jirachi used to be a Scarfer, but with the addition of Flygon to the team his revenge killing services were no longer required. Still, Jirachi adds yet another dragon resistance to the team, and is one of my main answers for full stall, since everything that enjoys Iron Head completely hates Toxic, and vice versa. The last spot was the hardest one for me to pick, since I needed a pokemon that could not only take hits, but also support the team against stall and be an “oh shit” pokemon in case I needed to take down something like a Breloom. When picking this spot I was completely blocked, therefore I asked for help to user panamaxis, whom I greatly thank for helping me create this set, since without him I doubt id have gotten to this. Jirachi is a double bleessing as well, sometimes it will sweep a whole team on its own by using Layers + Toxic + Iron head, eliminating steels with Fire Punch, and sometimes it wont do anything other than Toxicing a Swampert or Iron Heading something to kill it, but his pros outstand his cons. The way Jirachi played is quite easy, you just switch-in, hopefully when theres no Layers on my side, and on something that dies to Iron Head or Fire Punch. When you kill it, the first thing that will come to the opponent’s mind is “Scarf Jirachi” going to something like Swampert to get SR or a set up pokemon like Lucario. Thats when the surprise factor shines, hitting the switch in with something they will hate. Oh and Jirachi is also my main thing to defeat Machamp, since I only need 1 Iron Head flinch in order to put it into Thunderbolt KO range from Rotom. Btw you can call me crazy for using 3 Steels, but seriously guys, even though Mence and Latias left, theres a lot of stuff that spam Outrage, so you gotta be careful or you will be swept by last pokemon Outrage Flygon or something! The 44 HP supposedly help it survive a Max Attack Breloom Focus Punch after SR and Spikes, and also helps with overall bulk I guess. This thing also plays at everytime of the match, except very early (unless im facing a lead Machamp or trying to get a free sub on Dual Screen Azelf lead), as it excels in playing Late Game to bluff the Scarf or mid game to spread the Poison Status.

    Jirachi and Ichigo dont have a lot in common on looks, but id put it this way, Jirachi and Ichigo are both top tier fighters, but both of them are not the best, simple as that. When they are about to get beaten up, they both do some kind of cheating to win, for Jirachi this would be those flinches, and Ichigo’s Second Phase Hollowfication vs Ulquiorra was pure BS HAX (although it looked amazing). Also Jirachi is cute and Ichigo is hot, I mean look at him, hes just 15 and he is ripped as fuck.


    Togekiss @ Leftovers ♥♥♥ Orihime Inoue
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP/40 Def/20 Spd/96 SAtk/100 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Air Slash
    - Roost
    - Heal Bell
    - Thunder Wave

    Togekiss was picked because it was quite the awesome special tank. Since back then I had a Toxic user, I could easily decide what mons I wanted Toxiced and what mons I wanted Togekiss to Paralize. Togekiss made awesome support too, Heal Bell was a great move to have. The cons, however, were big. Only 1 attack and not a strong one to be realistic made its offense mediocre at best, and Normal/Flying is also a piss poor Defensive Typing. Heatran seemed to take Status much better and then shrug it off with Rest, and the bulk of Heatran, while taking into account resistances, made it so much better. I dont really remember what the EV spread is supposed to do, I think it was enough SpDef and HP to take 2 Specs Latias Draco Meteors at 100% with no SR on the field or something, and the rest in Special Attack.

    Togekiss and Orihime are like the same thing, both are happy most of the time, both represent love, and both try to evade evil and/or beat it, so yeah its a pretty perfect couple in my opinion.

    Latias @ Leftovers §§§ Rukia Kuchiki
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/80 Def/176 Spd
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Roar
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover

    This thing was incredible back then. Capable of beating every single Calm Minder while setting up on them, spreading passive damage, and to top it off, possibly the best Latias set to scout for counters, considering you just come in on something that cant hurt you at all and then just mindlessly click Roar, making Tyranitar/Scizor take Layer damage and putting your opponent at a horrible position again. The moves are pretty obvious, this Latias only needs Dragon Pulse as at +6, which was achieved often, the resistances dont matter. This thing also acted as a stall breaker of sorts, since only Taunt Skarmory and Blissey could stand at it, and both were easily Roared out. Although I lost an excellent pokemon when she was banned, Jirachi does the Stallbreaking job a bit better.

    Latias and Rukia have so much in common, both are extremely cute, but put your guard down and youre fucked, as both are very damn powerful. Also Rukia has a “brother” in the name of Byakuya, as Latias does with Latios.


    Well thats the team, feel free to rate it, take it, tweek it or whatever, and thanks for reading!

    Them Credits (open)
    * My cheerleaders/teammates (tito, Rewer, hanke, legendary_07, Mizuno, scimjara, ENZ0, and Jun.)!: Thanks for all the support you gave me guys, I probably wouldnt have gotten that far without you, thanks for all the testing and recommendations.

    * panamaxis: wouldnt have gotten this far without the Jirachi set we made together, very much appreciated man.

    * #secretchannelgoeshere - Bloo, Tab, and the rest of the crew: Thanks a lot guys for your support, DOUBLE RAINBOW forever.

    * husk: told me to change heatran and forry spreads, thanks man!

  2. reyscarface

    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusdefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Dec 9, 2008
    ~How to beat other Zanpakutos~ (Threat List)

    Green: Easy to beat and usually not a problem if played correctly.
    Purple: Annoying but can be beaten easy.
    Red: Oshi. Annoying to the max, beaten but something can go down on the process.

    ~Offensive Threats~

    [​IMG] Aerodactyl :

    • Leads: Already explained in the Forretress section.

    • Life Orb: Most of them cant touch Flygon at all, so Flygon is my first switchin if I see an Aerodactyl that isnt a lead, Vaporeon can beat it with Surf, Rotom survives a Stone Edge and OHKOs with Thunderbolt.
    [​IMG] Alakazam :

    • Lead: I usually just Stealth Rock and switch out to Flygon/Jirachi on the Encore, really easy to beat and set up on.
    • Sweeper: Flygon outspeeds and OHKOs, Jirachi can take a Focus Blast and so does Vaporeon. Forry beats HP Fire less ones due to Payback OHKO.
    [​IMG] Azelf :

    • Leads: Already explained it on Forry section. Troublesome.
    • LO Sweeper:Flygon outspeeds, Heatran completely owns it.
    [​IMG] Breloom :

    • Scarfed Lead: Easiest Breloom to handle, I usually just let Forretress take the sleep and work from there.

    • SubPunch Lead: For some reason these started getting popular, and everytime I faced one I was in trouble. Let Forretress take sleep since I cant risk Heatran in on a Focus Punch, then go to Rotom on the Focus Punch, Shadow Ball to break sub, and they dont suspect Specs, so Shadow Ball OHKOs even 100% Breloom. Other times, Jirachi survives the Focus Punch and scares it away.
    • Substitute: Same as lead, except I let Heatran take the sleep, not Forretress. Troublesome as well.
    [​IMG] Dragonite :

    • Dragon Dance: Oh god annoying as hell, good thing they have Outrage. I usually sacrifice Forry and go to Flygon to revenge.
    • Heal Bell + Dragon Dance: This one is easier, since they dont use Earthquake. Heatran Roars, Flygon revenges, Vaporeon Roars and if needed Rotom tricks. 1 Free layer for Forry as well.
    • Leads: Easy, Vaporeon on Fire Blast, Wish on Draco Meteor, Protect, Wish, Protect......
    • Choice Band: Less annoying than all out DD, since Flygon can revenge easier, Rotom also can come in on ES or EQ, and Jirachi hurts Dragon Locked ones badly.
    [​IMG] Dugtrio :

    • Choice: Man, if this comes in on Heatran it can be annoying since it gets a free kill on it, same applies for Jirachi, but its set up fodder for Forry.
    [​IMG] Electivire :

    • Sweeper: Kumar628 recommended me to use Rotom so Mixvire doesnt sweep me. My team is now not Mixvire weak.
    [​IMG] Empoleon :

    • Lead: Use SR on it, go to Vaporeon, Wish, Go to Forry on Grass Knot, get Spikes, go to Vap...
    • SubPetaya: Flygon outspeeds +2 ones, and besides, Vaporeon is like the best counter to it!
    • Tank: lol
    [​IMG] Flygon :

    • Choice: Outrage, Stone Edge, Thunderpunch and EQ (EQ from Scarfed ones, Band hurts) are free set up fodder for Forry, while Vaporeon walls Scarfed ones to death. Rotom and Flygon evade EQ, Heatran and Jirachi own Outrage.
    [​IMG] Gengar :

    • Sub Split: Vaporeon is never 2HKOd by anything Gengar throws at it except Thunderbolt, which is never used on Sub Gar. Pain Split is annoying though. If it has Focus Blast, Forry can fuck it over with Payback, and if it has HP Fire, Heatran is perfect counter.
    • Life Orb: Now these ones are annoying, since they can OHKO Heatran, Forry (if HP Fire), and Rotom. Vaporeon isnt 2HKOd, and Jirachi can take a hit if needed, Flygon revenge kills. Annoying though.
    [​IMG] Gyarados :

    • LO Dragon Dance: Vaporeon Roars it, Flygon revenges it, Forry can take hits if needed.
    • Taunt Dragon Dance: This thing is annoying, if it taunts Vaporeon then ill have to bring in Flygon instantly and spam Outrage, which is something I do not enjoy. Rotom can survive a +1 Waterfall though.
    • RestTalker: Yo my name is Forry and I set up on your bitchass.
    [​IMG] Heatran :

    • Choice Scarf: Vaporeon is as good as it gets for a Counter.
    • Choice Specs: Vaporeon on everything except HP Grass, and if it HP Grasses then its free set up for Forry.
    • Life Orb: Vaporeon can beat it one on one, Flygon can kill it if needed, Rotom 2HKOs with Tbolt and OHKOs with Hydro Pump.
    • Torment: Vaporeon.
    [​IMG] Heracross :

    • Choice: Forretress can set up on 3/4 moves, and all of my mons can resist a respective attack. Heatran on Megahorn, Rotom on CC, etc.
    [​IMG] Infernape :

    • Mixape: Vaporeon, but its very annoying. Flygon can revenge.
    • Choiced: Banded ones are easy to play around although they hit hard, Scarf ones are tricky but Vaporeon owns them.
    • Lead: Read Forretress.
    • Nasty Plot/Swords Dance: THE problem. This thing can get in on Forretress, set up one of those moves, and it means it WILL kill a Pokemon. These Infernape are the reason I play so cautiously with Flygon, so I can take a +2 Vacuum Wave/Mach Punch, if Flygon is under 50%, the Infernape is at +2 and it has Priority, its over. Thankfully, this has only costed me 1 game, as I manage to play Flygon carefully until I know the opponent's team.
    [​IMG] Jirachi :

    • Scarf: Forry takes everything except Fire Punch and sets up on it, Heatran is the perfect Counter.
    • Body Slam: Heatran is the perfect Counter.
    • Calm Mind: Heatran is the perfect Counter.
    [​IMG] Jolteon :

    • Choice Specs: Flygon on Thunderbolt, Rotom if needed as well. Forry sets up on Shadow Ball / Hidden Power, and Heatran isnt 2HKOd.
    • Life Orb: Flygon and Heatran.
    [​IMG] Kingdra :

    • Lum/Chesto Dragon Dance: Vaporeon comes in, Wishes as they Sub or Outrage, and I work from there. If it subbed I roar, if it Outraged I protect, and if it DDd I roar. Chesto ones are whores if its last mon and it gets a flinch on Jirachi.
    • Rain Dance: Vaporeon isnt 2HKOd by Meteor, so its almost a perfect counter.
    [​IMG] Lucario :

    • Swords Dance: Rotom comes in on SD / CC and OHKOs with Thunderbolt. Flygon isnt OHKOd by +2 Extremespeed iirc, Jirachi Fire Punches it.
    • Agility: Vaporeon can beat it with Wish + Protect + Surf when it gets enough def drops. Jirachi isnt OHKOd by CC.
    [​IMG] Machamp:

    • Sub + 3 attacks: If it gets a sub, something is going down unless Vaporeon manages to Roar it away after the first DynamicPunch, or Jirachi passes confusion to flinch it twice. Unlikely though, its pretty damn bad.
    • Lead: Read Forretress, god damn annoying because of Confusion.
    [​IMG] Magnezone :

    • Choice Scarf: It will trap Forretress, but thats pretty much everything it will do in the whole game. Also Forry isnt 2HKOd by a Thunderbolt so I get some layers.
    • Substitute: Heatran. If it Charge Beams I roar, if it Thunderbolts I Rest and Sleep Talk. Flygon and Rotom work too.
    [​IMG] Mamoswine :

    • Lead: Free Spikes gallore, Rotom OHKOs, Jirachi OHKOs, Vaporeon OHKOs.
    • LO Sweeper: Vaporeon isnt 2HKOd, Jirachi still OHKOs, Rotom also OHKOs, etc.
    [​IMG] Metagross :

    • Lead: Free Spikes gallore. Rotom walls it and can KO it after some layer switchins.
    • Tank: Rotom, Forry free layers, Flygon, Vaporeon...

    • AgiliGross: Flygon will outspeed Adamant ones, Vaporeon can easily stall even Thunderpunch versions. I can get 2 layers with Forry as well, or hit with Payback to weaken it. Rotom walls and OHKOs as well.
    [​IMG] Porygon-Z :

    • Choiced / Generic Sweeper: Heatran is as good as it gets for a counter.
    [​IMG] Rhyperior :

    • Sub: Forry some layers, Vaporeon can Roar it as it SDs, Flygon EQs, Rotom can OHKO and 2HKO depending on move.
    • Trick Room: Vaporeon.
    [​IMG] Scizor :

    • Choice Band: Forry gets layers, Rotom OHKOs after 2 SRs or SR + Spikes, Vaporeon walls it, Jirachi OHKOs, Flygon can OHKO, Heatran OHKOs. Walled by all my team lol.
    • Swords Dance: Jirachi OHKOs, if its slow Heatran wins, Rotom can take a +2 BP if needed.
    [​IMG] Starmie :

    • Defensive: I remember losing to Jun because he used a Leftovers Rapid Spin, Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, Recover Starmie, which caused some deep shit, but it was also because he ahd stuff on his team to help it. Alone it cant hurt much, but with proper support it can be annoying. It also needs that exact set or it doesnt do crap.
    • Life Orb: Oh god annoying. Usually it goes like this: It takes layer damage going to lets say 75%. I bring in Rotom on a Hydro Pump / Rapid Spin / Thunderbolt. If it Hydro Pumps, I let Rotom die, go to Flygon, and U-Turn to kill, effectively blocking spin. If I dont need layers Vaporeon can outstall it.
    [​IMG] Togekiss :

    • ParaFlinch: Jirachi subs on it and sub isnt broken by Aura Sphere. Heatran owns it. So does Specs Rotom.
    • Nasty Plot: Rotom comes in and OHKOs, Heatran can Roar it on the NP, Jirachi can Toxic it and start to Iron Head Flinch. Flygon revenge if needed.
    [​IMG] Tyranitar :

    • Choice Band: Jirachi and Flygon can take a Stone Edge and threaten to OHKO, while Heatran and Forry beat Crunch, etc.
    • Choice Scarf: It may be able to revenge Rotom, but it will be 2HKOd after SR, so its a 50/50 chance. Flygon and Jirachi become more reliable, as do Heatran and Vaporeon.
    • Dragon Dance: If it gets 1 im in trouble, but Vaporeon can Roar it to take layer damage. If it gets 2, something IS going to die, but Flygon can still revenge. If it gets 3 though and doesnt miss Stone Edge on Vaporeon, its gg. Usually it cant get so much, though. Annoying if you dont handle it correctly.
    • TyraniBoah: Vaporeon owns it, Jirachi owns it, Flygon owns it.
    [​IMG] Weavile :

    • Sweeper: It can revenge Rotom with Pursuit, same applies for Flygon and Ice Shard, but Jirachi and Vaporeon beat it, plus Forry can set up on SD less ones.
    [​IMG] Yanmega :

    • Sweeper: Heatran, Jirachi, Rotom.
    ~Defensive Threats~

    [​IMG] Blissey:

    • Wall: If it doesnt run Flamethrower Forretress will set up on it and restore health with Wish later. Rotom can trick it, Rachi is made to own this thing, and Heatran can outstall every variant.
    [​IMG] Bronzong :

    • Wall: Forry free layers, Rotom 2HKOs and isnt hurt by anything, Heatran owns EQ less ones and same for Jirachi.
    [​IMG] Celebi :

    • Wall: If it has HP Fire Forry cant set up but its buttfucked by Heatran. Flygon U-Turn hurts, and after some layers Rotom can OHKO.
    • Life Orb Tinkerbell: Earth Power less is beaten by Heatran, Flygon can nearly OHKO with U-Turn now, Rotom OHKOs for sure.
    [​IMG] Cresselia :

    • Wall: Forry sets up on it all day long, Jirachi wins with Substitute + Toxic, Rotom 2HKOs and can Trick, and is outstalled badly by Heatran.
    [​IMG] Donphan :

    • Wall: Forry gets layers freely, and I switch in Rotom on a predicted Spin to OHKO Donphan. It is also OHKOd by Vaporeon.
    [​IMG] Forretress :

    • Standard: Rotom can OHKO it after SR + Spikes, effectively removing any Spin chance. Flygon OHKOs with Fire Blast, Heatran OHKOs, Jirachi 2HKOs. Only thing that is annoying is spin.
    [​IMG] Gliscor:

    • Stall-breaker: Forry wont set up on it sadly, but Rotom can OHKO, Vaporeon can OHKO after SR, Jirachi can toxic it. Its annoying to deal with if well played, though.
    • Baton Pass: If it gets something up on Forry, I go to Vaporeon, Surf it on his stat move, and Roar it as it brings something in, effectively stopping the pass.
    [​IMG] Hippowdon :

    • Wall: Free layers for Forry, Vaporeon 2HKOs, Jirachi can Toxic it, Rotom OHKOs and can Trick it.
    [​IMG] Skarmory :

    • Standard: Without Taunt I get easy layers and spin his, if it taunts I usually just stay spinning for a while and then go to Rotom to threaten with an OHKO. Flygon can 2HKO with Fire Blast after SR. Heatran threatens it badly.
    [​IMG] Snorlax :

    • Curse: Trick from Rotom can obliterate it, Flygon can hurt it with strong physical moves, EQ less Snorlax gets Roared, and most of the time they are Toxiced + Iron Headed to death. I can set up Layers on it as well.
    [​IMG] Suicune:

    • CroCune: Vaporeon owns it, Rotom can 2HKO it even at +2 or Trick it. If needed Heatran will Roar a +1 one. Flygon can do some damage and Jirachi will Toxic + Iron Head it.
    • LO/Leftovers CM: Vaporeon is great at Roaring it, Flygon will 2HKO these with SR + Spikes with EQ, Rotom can OHKO them.
    [​IMG] Swampert :

    • Standard: Forry sets up, Rotom 2HKOs or Trick, Vaporeon owns it, Jirachi can Toxic. Even with no grass moves its easy to handle.
    • CursePert: Heh CursePert, Vaporeon Roars it, monoattacking ones are rocked even harder. Rotom can Trick.
    [​IMG] Tentacruel :

    • Wall: Rotom 1/2HKOs and blocks spin. Flygon OHKOs.
    [​IMG] Vaporeon :

    • Wall: Forry can get some layers, then I go to Vaporeon and Wish, followed by going to either Forry or Rachi. Rachi will Toxic it, Rotom will OHKO it.
    [​IMG] Zapdos:

    • Generic Wall: Heatran owns this very badly, and Jirachi can Toxic it. Rotom can Trick as well.
    • SubToxic: Heatran beats it, and Jirachi can Toxic it. It is quite annoying if played well though.
    • Life Orb: Annoying as well, Heatran wont be 2HKOd and Flygon can switch in with ease, but its kinda hard to beat. Rotom can also hurt it badly with Tbolt.
    Aki Kino likes this.
  3. KidX


    Feb 22, 2010
    Love the bleach them rey!

    Anyways, Since you seem to have a Nape/Machamp weakness, I would suggest LO Azelf somewhere, but I have no idea where :S. Anyways LO Azlef is uncommon so people don't prepare for an azelf sweep, Zelf outspeeds Nape and OKHO's with psychic, same thing with Champ.

    Oh and why is Forry grimjow? O_O

    Good Luck!
  4. Squirrel.


    Jan 16, 2010
    Well amazing team obviously and glad to see what gave you so much success, I don't see really anything to criticize its incredibly soild. But Offensive shaymin seems to give you alot of problems it can easyily come in on vaporean and Seed flare weather or not it gets the sp def drop EP is going to OHKO heatran after the little damage seed flare did and also If you bring in rachi and he EPs you could be in a lot of trouble. Maybe you could fix this buy changing jirachis jolly nature to a clam nature that might allow you to take some more hits from it, but even then you still could relay on flinching it to death by using jollt risky but ehh not to much to rate here amazing team nice job on your ladder success!
  5. tab

    tab ʕ•͡ᴥ•ʔ
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 4, 2008
    posting as an excuse to double rainbow

    Only real suggestion I have is that you might wanna try out Sub/Split/Tbolt/Shadow Ball Rotom @ Leftoves instead of Specs at some point - I've been using one on a really similar team for a while and it's an absolute beast with Spikes/SR support. And now, what you've been waiting for...

  6. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

    Oct 10, 2008
    awesome presentation and nice team. what are the 56 defense evs doing for forret specifically? i think just going for max/max is generally the better idea.

    (also the squads + random character don't make sense either but w/e -,-)
  7. kokoloko

    kokoloko what matters is our plan!
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Aug 21, 2009
    I see you decided to post it anyway, The RMT looks very nicely laid out. Couple of questions / nitpicks: Flygon desn't really need Jolly, the only reason I see for running Jolly is to tie with ScarfRachi and other Flygon, both of whom are handled very well by the rest of your team. Also, Why Forretress over Skarmory? Skarm might not get Rapid Spin but he gets Roost and Taunt. On the subject of leads, I see that you switch Heatran in on Smeargle's Spore, well I've noticed most Smeargle leads are TrickScarfers now so you might wanna be more careful since a Scarfed RT Tran is kind of useless. Finally, consider changing Vaporeon's spread to 252 HP / 220 Def / 24 SpD / 12 Spe Bold. It still outspeeds the standard BC Scizor and gets the best overall bulk from both sides of the spectrum.

    Congrats on reaching #1 on the leaderboard, btw. Also, Shinji is my favorite character too, he is too funny. lol

    EDIT: Where in the world did you find those Bleach sprites? They're pretty awesome.
  8. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

    Oct 10, 2008
    eh jolly is for outspeeding stuff like agili gross, empoleon and certain dd'ers like 242 gyara and ttar
  9. tobi10


    Jul 11, 2009
    Hell yeah I got a mention!1! Let me say that this is an excellent team and has an excellent presentation, also good luck on peaking 1st and going 3-0 R1!

    My only real suggestion for your team is to use Stone Edge on Flygon, so you can check DD Dragonite and Gyarados without locking yourself into Outrage, Taunt Gyarados can be troublesome lategame because he can take an Outrage after SR.
    Edit** Forretress with Explosion can OHKO Machamp and Infernape if you predict SD or NP or if you can get through confusion :o

    Good job and good luck!
  10. GB_Packers_Ftw


    Jun 16, 2007
    Having used both this exact fortress, and SR spike taunt roost skarmory, Fortress has been consistantely the ebtter choice. With out an attacking move, Skamory is destroyed by SR taunts. where as foretress can Rapid spin it right back, and plus break their sash., and ill also take bug steel over steel flying any day

    the only thing that i've always done on my lead forrey is run shed shell. Its just nice. and i hate effing magnezones. You can get flygon in basicly free and get some good momentum going early this way instead of 1 layer of..EH..as opposed to that ugly 6-5 start.
  11. Alan


    Jan 14, 2010
    I don't have anything to say really. Great team and congrats on the success it got. inb4ladderwhores. etc. You could try RestTalk Cune > Vappy since its a little bulkier but then you lose Wish support to its a toss up.

    also, this post is a great excuse for a


    also as I promised in irc: Rey, Stark Mountain is not a good place to ask for porn.
  12. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Jan 2, 2010
    Very nice team! I'm glad someone is giving Rest + Sleep Talk Heatran the respect it deserves. You may want to place a bit more speed on it to abuse "speed shuffle". I personally run 160 Speed EVs on Heatran to outspeed Max Speed Adamant SD Scizor, but it's all up to you.

    That EV spread on Vaporeon is a bit strange, though -- It doesn't even yield a leftovers number. You may want to try out the spread that jc104 recently mentioned:

    252 HP/220 Def/24 SpD/12 Spe

    You can take hits from Infernape very well, and still survive 2 LO HP Grass attacks from Heatran a good percentage of the time. 252 HP EVs also has the bonus of taking a bit less from Seismic Toss.

    Also, you may want to consider placing Adamant on Flygon as the difference in power is noticeable. You can revenge +1 Dragonite anyway.

    That Jirachi set is very interesting! Bulky waters that love to switch in hate toxic, and it complements your spikes very well. One of the best gimmicks I've seen in a while!

    LO Starmie with Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, Rapid Spin and Recover is EXTREMELY annoying to this team, and it can destroy this team piece by piece if Rotom dies to Hydro Pump. It's not stupid enough to sacrifice itself to U-Turn, so that strategy is a bit faulty. I would suggest placing a RestTalk DD Kingdra over Jirachi to check Starmie, but then you lose your Jolly Lucario counter...sigh.

    Just remember that there are very few Pokemon that can outright check Starmie, so you may just have to predict around it.

    Good luck!
  13. WhiteQueen

    is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL Championwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournament

    Aug 6, 2009
    This is an awesome team, and I <3 the Bleach theme. I had a similar team before with that same Heatran (different EVs), so I know all too well how beastly it is. That thing switches in on Zapdos, Rotom-A, Jirachi, etc for free and just Roar shits away to rack up entry damages.

    Anyways, I've been using lead Forretress too for awhile now and I know very well how troublesome going against leads like Azelf and Machamp can be. So in end, after being fed up with those damn pokemon, I settled on this Forrestress set to ensure it's capable of setting up at least SR on any leads:

    FORRETRESS (Forretress) (F) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SDef
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Explosion

    Focus Sash on a Forrestress seems like an odd idea, but it works in ensuring that SR gets up. And against stuff like Metagross and Swampert, it can easily get up Spikes as well. Once those entries are up, Forrestress is nothing more than mere death fodder, hence Explosion instead of Payback.

    That's pretty much all I can really advice. This team is very solid as is.
  14. Doctor Who?

    Doctor Who?

    May 19, 2010
    Kudos for the Restalk Heatran, such a great set, I absolutely love using it! Also SpecsRotom, another great set.I've used Forretress before and I really don't like it for some reason. I mean I would just rather go for Skarm if I wasn't trying to get TSpikes up, because he has recovery, also the lack of Rapid Spin can somewhat be made up for with Taunt, since you have the same effect against the bulkier leads, Metagross/Swampert/Hippow. Or you could just go for Brave Bird and not be Taunt weak, since you have no sr weaknesses.Also, I noticed that you can have some problems against Infernape, and if you wish you could use an alternate spread of 252HP 252DEF 4SPD/S.ATK/S.DEF, which ensures you aren't 2hkoed by a Close Combat. But with Flygon you won't have too many worries since you can just revenge it. It's up to you really.
  15. Boondocker


    Nov 6, 2009
    This is a pretty good team, although i noticed sd ape and gengar can hurt you pretty badly. Ever concider a chople berry on heatran to take away a poke they can come in on? And maybe run earth power over roar? Its just a suggestion i know how much you love your roar heatran. Also i dont see how that jirachi breaks stall at all. Most stall teams have a rest talk rotom/gyrados, both of witch that set fails to do jack against except force them to rest. If its a gyrados you're not just getting walled you're going to be getting shuffled around for free :/. Not good my friend. So i suggest a mix nite over him with extreme speed over roost to help you revenge starmie and infernape if something should happen to flygon. Dragonite shouldnt die too fast since you have both spin and wish support.
  16. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan smogon :^(
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 19, 2008
    nice team rey. :)

    i'm just wondering if flygon really needs jolly. if you change to adamant, you still beat jolly +1 gyarados and dragonite, as well as all +2 empoleon and the standard +2 metagross. the only thing you lose to are other jolly scarf flygons and jirachis, but who cares; you practically have five jirachi counters anyway.

    i rated your thread four stars. if you change flygon to adamant i'll give you five! ^_^

  17. reyscarface

    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusdefeated the Smogon Frontier

    Dec 9, 2008


    Well basically id like to have a psychic mon somewhere to KO them, sadly LO Azelf cant fit on this kind of team due to the defensive nature of it, but thanks for the suggestion anyways.

    Also im not really sure why I made forry grimmjow but I can tell you those 6 up there are my fav bleach characters and i had to fit them somehow!

    first of all thanks for the compliments!

    Shaymin can be troublesome if it has Earth Power, Seed Flare, HP Fire and Synthesis, but usually it goes like this, it takes layer damage, while taking around 15% from Vaps surf. I go to heatran on the seed flare, and then go to Flygon on the Earth Power / switch, using U-Turn to go back to Heatran, effectively beating Shaymins. The idea of using a more bulky Shaymin has been since I made this team, the deal is since I use Jirachi for stall breaking im not sure how much another defensive mon would help me, although a defensive Jirachi set with Wish + Calm Mind and Psychic can work quite well, as it helps with Machamp. Thanks for the suggestion, ill be sure to test it later.


    but DOUBLE RAINBOW forever.

    thanks for the compliments!

    I changed the forry spread to something husk recommended but thanks for the suggestion and the reply to another post above.


    Thanks for compliments and YEAH SHINJI IS AWESOME! Took me like 1 hour to find those amazing sprites on an obscure site but ill be sure to PM you the link.

    As for Jolly/Adamant on Flygon, I dont care about the extra power, but the speed ties have proven crucial in some games, therefore id rather have Jolly.

    Forry vs Skarm is interesting, but yeah the main reason I use Forry is because of the great Rapid Spin which I just cant give away. Also if I use Skarm it would have to be Taunt, Whirlwind, SR, Roost, making me miss spikes, something I do not like.

    The spread on Vaporeon seems nice, but I really enjoy having more speed than 12 to beat stuff that aim to beat Scizor, and as for the spread its the standard in the analysis i think, but thanks anyways.

    And yeah there are some Trick Scarf Smeargles out there but even if they Trick me id rather have Heatran tricked than Forry!

    Thanks for your comments.

    luv ya legend.

    id use Explosion on forry but I really like Payback for hurting Gengars, who otherwise would be insanely annoying.

    Stone Edge on Flygon is cool, ill check it out, although i like hitting Skarm with Fire Blast.

    Thanks for the compliments!

    I already changed the Heatran spread to something more effective, but thanks for recommending it.

    I already mentioned above why I use this Vaporeon spread.

    As for Adamant Flygon, read above as well.

    about jirachi thanks! its a very funky set to use.

    LO Starmie isnt really that bad, since it takes Layer damage, LO damage and will also eat a U-Turn to the face, easily eliminating it. You say they usually wont stay in on Flygon and its true, but then their switchin takes layer damage, a uturn and will be on a bad matchup, same for starmie, it takes layer damage upon switching in, making it way easier for me!

    thanks for your comments though.
    Thanks for the compliments a lot :)

    Im reluctant to change Forry mainly because I enjoy hitting Gengar and getting layers, also if I were to change the item it would be to shed shell because magnezone is a jerk, but not to sash.

    thanks for your input!

    Thanks for you comment! As I said above, I really like Rapid Spin, and if I used Skarm id miss on spikes, which im not up for.
    thanks for the compliment, as for SD Ape and Gengar, yeah theyare mayor bitches, Gengar is manageable though, and SD Ape needs Flygon very weakened in order to sweep, which doesnt happen often. Using chople on a defensive heatran is very redundant as Leftovers are huge, so i cant do that change, but thanks for the input anyways.

    As for Jirachi not breaking stall, yep, stall uses Rotom with Rest, but thats the fun part, you get a Sub up, wait until they wake up, Toxic it, use Fire Punch a bit making them think they are safe for a Rest at like 40%~, but then they get flinched twice and bam, Rotom is down. Gyarados works the exact same way, except it has intimidate and can Roar.

    Dragonite can be fun to use, and actually id like testing it, so ill play with it.

    Thanks for the suggestions.

    Thanks for the compliment!

    As for Flygon Jolly/Adamant, i have already spoke on IRC about it with you, but yeah, im not changing it, I feel the speed is too important =/

    thanks for posting anyways! oh and DOUBLE RAINBOW 4ever

    Thanks everyone for commenting and star-ing the thread, much appreciated.
  18. ToF

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 13 Champion

    Sep 30, 2007
    Excellent team rey.

    The only change I recommend is defensive CM Wish Jirachi over your current one. Not only do you maintain an almost 100% way of defeating stall, but you also gain another Wish user which would make your team even more annoying to play and beat. Psychic would remedy the Machamp situation as well, and also Breloom to an extent. The SD Infernape weakness will forever be unsolved however because of how slow your team is and how vulnerable it is to priority, so again like you said make sure you play Flygon extremely carefully or else you'll definitely be swept by like Lucario + Infernape teams.

    Other than that, this is an excellent post-Latias and Salamence team. Congrats on the success.
  19. sundy


    May 27, 2010
    Faced this team on Pokemon Online. Whoever was using it rage-quit after he lost Rotom to Breloom lol. This team also has a little bit of trouble with Pokemon that use Taunt (namely lead GLiscor) becasue it shuffles your team around and keeps you from getting entry hazards up.
  20. husk

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Jan 9, 2005
  21. Doctor Who?

    Doctor Who?

    May 19, 2010
    @ Husk: I think Lava Plume is absolutely necessary for Restalk tran. You're not running any S.ATK evs so I don't think you are really doing that much to common switch ins with Flamethrower anyway. I think it really pays off to run Lava Plume when you burn any incoming Gyara, ttar ad mence (when I used this set last, mence was still in the game), and also a burned vappy isn't walling anything for long. So basically Lava Plume (when it does burn, screws over, like, ALL, of Heatran's common switches.
  22. husk

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Jan 9, 2005
    Some (very specific) situations in recent memory that I have encountered where I really enjoy min spatk flamethrower over min spatk lava plume are: flamethrower ohkos standard skarmory, flamethrower always breaks zapdos's subs, flamethrower 2hkos rotom (lava plume can with max damage twice) , and specifically for this team since heatran is a good response to gengar (none of the other pokemon are really valid here...well maybe forry) you can get the ko 10% earlier with ft which is (1 lorbed attack faster) usually priceless considering how badly gengar rapes this team.

    But overall the reason I would suggest the change from lp to ft is that I have never thought that "I really wish I could burn <pokemon> on the switch" where as there are certain situations where heatran has barely grabbed KOs.

    But you could put it down to personal preference. I will admit that burning Tyranitar would be priceless for this team.
  23. animenagai

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Nov 19, 2007
    I like husk's changes but I'm kinda confused as to the vappy change. Is there no better set that gives you more EV's through extra points? Modest and no spatk ev's?
  24. Electro Gypsy

    Electro Gypsy

    May 11, 2010
    Very nice team. There's a reason its #1. However I see an issue with Superachi early game. After it being featured on the SmogCast I can see it rising in usage. Superachi has a very high chance to OHKO the most specially defensive Heatran with HP Ground after a single Calm Mind with Stealth Rock damage. I don't know if there's any one thing I could recommend to combat this threat, as your team is so well thought out I'd probably wind up damaging your core more with my recommendation. Flygon revenging it is easy enough, however Superachi is never OHKOed by Flygon's Jolly Earthquake with only Stealth Rock damage. I believe its something like 75% to 90%. However with spikes so prevelant on this team, I don't think it will pull that off as easily.

    I think i've played this team, and it was the last time I'll ever look down on a Forretress lead.
  25. Rewer

    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 15, 2009
    Yo rey!

    Yeah good team like said before, id just see troubles from DD Taunt Gyarados since Vaporeon cant handle it and Rotom is not taking a waterfall with easy so being with full health is a must to take him down. Now that Jirachi is indeed a bitch but a Sub CM Jirachi like husk said would help alot more abusing spikes and sr and sweeping on late game (also helps with Gengar, Machamp, and Breloom like you listed on the threat list)
    OR Hp Eletric > Roar on Vappy.

    Id also change Vaporeon nature to Modest and put 68 EVs on Speed, to get a jump on Skarmory and 3hko special defense variations and 2hko physical defensive variations and also outspeed Metagross. Also with 188 EVs on HP you have a leftovers number and still got alot of bulk.

    Anyway good team and gj on the 3-0 and on the 1720 CRE ^^

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