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Encouraging Continual Work

Discussion in 'Moderator Discussion' started by Articuno64, Oct 14, 2007.

  1. Articuno64

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    We've been discussing in #insidescoop the matter of motivation. People contribute to the site in some way, they get their badge(s), and they lose motivation to contribute further. This isn't a problem with everyone, but it's definitely a concern.

    This thread is for suggestions about how to improve the situation. Below is the #insidescoop log:

    <chaos> perhaps we need a method for recognizing degrees of contribution?
    <Misty> maybe
    <chaos> i mean, if someone contributes at one point
    <chaos> it might be cool if they retain that status
    <chaos> since they did in fact contribute
    <Articuno64> the credits page
    <chaos> but someone who is more active should get a bit more
    <chaos> there is that, yes
    <Misty> yeah the credits page would be a good place to recognize contributors, while a badge would also recognize currency
    <Articuno64> the credits page can immortalize contributions, but not necessarily give IS access
    <Articuno64> and scms access
    <Articuno64> if someone is long removed from their contribution days
    <chaos> ok
    <chaos> but if we do that
    <Articuno64> we need to be open with people about whether they are going to continue contributing
    <chaos> is there a necessity for the multitude of badges we have now?
    <Articuno64> before just taking them away
    <Articuno64> i don't know
    <Aeolus> I think the badges have been one of the most successful motivation tools you've implemented chaos
    <chaos> im just going to wait for jumps topic and program now
    <Aeolus> people will do insane amounts of work for a tiny icon
    <chaos> and then i guess we can settle this
    <Misty> well I only recommend removing them from people who aren't around anymore
    <Misty> like Pidgeot500 and zfs and KKM
    <Aeolus> KKM has a badge?
    <Misty> yes
    <Misty> he has contributor
    <Aeolus> oh
    <chaos> he wrote some doubles stuff
    <Aeolus> well, you can leave the badge
    <Aeolus> but revoke access
    <Aeolus> just change their usergroup back to registered user
    <Misty> that doesn't really "matter" because these people don't use the access anyway lol
    <Misty> it's not like Pidgeot500 "cares" if his access is revoked
    <Aeolus> no, but he cares equally about the presence of the icon
    <Aeolus> and it isn't like people even see that he has it
    <Misty> lol
    <Aeolus> he doesn't post
    <Aeolus> and he isn't listed in forum leaders
    <Misty> yeah ultimately it's an "it doesn't matter" since we changed the forum leaders i guess
    <Misty> oh well
    <Aeolus> I'm just playing devil's advocate
    <Aeolus> lol
    <Aeolus> but really, we have to determine our goal before we make changes
    <Aeolus> is it to keep access in the hands of those who use it?
    <Aeolus> or go only decorate those who currently contribute?
    <Aeolus> or both, it can be both
    <Articuno64> i think part of the issue is that people stop contributing once they've gotten their status
    <Articuno64> i could be wrong though, maybe people just lose interest
    <Misty> http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29788 btw can we move the tier list to the SCMS
    <Articuno64> you can only do this for so long
    <Misty> so we can desticky this thread
    <chaos> yes misty
    <Aeolus> well, it is my experience that most people will stop working when their is no longer a carrot dangling in front of them
    <chaos> yes
    <chaos> i agree
    <Aeolus> the other option is to make the stick bigger
    <chaos> but by that reasoning
    <chaos> there is no need for multiple badges
    <Aeolus> I disagree
    <Aeolus> each badge is a new carrot
    <Aeolus> it sounds silly
    <Misty> i agree
    <Aeolus> but people LOVE the icons
    <Aeolus> even though the incremental benefits are ZERO
    <Misty> it really isn't silly, people like to be recognized
    <chaos> which is why maybe continued work should add up the icons instead of having a special meaning for each
    <Articuno64> i kinda love my tournament director badge even though i haven't run the smogon tour since the original preseason
    <chaos> i think everyone agrees that badges should stay
    <chaos> i know i do
    <chaos> just a different way of thinking about them
    <Articuno64> hmm
    <Aeolus> I like the differentiation of meaning though
    <chaos> then how do we make the stick bigger
    <Aeolus> it not only is it recognition, it is descriptive
    <Aeolus> well, you make the stick bigger by requiring continued work... failure to do so = loss of badge and access
    <Misty> http://www.smogon.com:81/dp/articles/tiers
    <chaos> i suggested before, in response to something peterko brought up about his work, that perhaps a number should be associated with each badge
    <chaos> but it was shot down quickly
    <Articuno64> yeah i was just thinking about how to represent that
    <Articuno64> a different color or something
    <Aeolus> well, it has to be a graphical representation
    <Aeolus> that is the motivator
    <Aeolus> i think that is why I might have detracted
    <Articuno64> well the number can have graphical representation
    <Aeolus> you get into the area of clutter then
    <chaos> i was just thinking you hover over the badge
    <chaos> and it shows how many of that type of badge they got
    <chaos> or i dont know
    <chaos> but that might not be a motivator
    <Aeolus> I dont think it is
    <Aeolus> the other option is that we could create a new level of access
    <Aeolus> an inside scoop ++
    <Aeolus> I dont know how much I like that
    <Articuno64> i think we'd be diluting our threads though
    <Aeolus> but it is another carrot
    <Misty> that wouldn't really make much sense lol
    <chaos> i dont like it
    <Aeolus> I'm just trying to think of other motivators
    <Articuno64> it helps us to have more people able to respond to our threads
    <Articuno64> yeah
    <Aeolus> people respond negatively to a "bigger stick"
    <Aeolus> that might get us where we want to be... but it won't build any loyalty with our badge holders
    <chaos> i want it to be easy to get a badge so people will want to help out
    <chaos> i just dont want that to be the end of it
    <Aeolus> one way for it to be easier for someone to get a badge is to allow them to submit themselves for recognition
    <chaos> i think, partly, that will be solved by C&C reform
    <chaos> btw, the time is now
    <chaos> do you think you can make that happen Aeolus?
    <Aeolus> I'll have to work with Obi and Mekkah because they run it
    <chaos> ok
    <Aeolus> but we'll make it happen
    <chaos> well lets just outline real quickly whats to be done
    <chaos> so you can save this log
    <Aeolus> I have our earlier PM's but we can go over it again
    <chaos> ok
    <chaos> well, lets just discuss it now
    <chaos> i propose that people are free to post topics about changes for the site. in these topics, we discuss the problem, someone presents a solution, someone with SCMS access makes the edit
    <chaos> for instance, if i thought exeggutor was awkwardly worded
    <chaos> id post a topic saying "Exeggutor rewording", and provide my rewording
    <chaos> people would discuss and peer edit the changes
    <chaos> and someone would post it on the SCMS
    <chaos> we could, via these topics, count peoples contributions
    <chaos> agree/disagree/comments?
    <Aeolus> agree
    <Articuno64> i like
    <chaos> ok
    <Articuno64> how does this differ from how C&C currently works?
    <Aeolus> we could even have me/mekkah/obi and whoever else formally keep track of the stuff in that forum
    <chaos> arti, there used to be megathreads for each type of problem
    <Aeolus> so people cas see that we are actually taking notice
    <chaos> people would post them
    <chaos> it was hard to discuss changes
    <chaos> or peer edit
    <chaos> and i think thats counter productive
    <Aeolus> keeping track?
    <Articuno64> makes sense
    <Articuno64> no he was talking to me
    <Aeolus> ok
    <Aeolus> what do you think about keeping track of it chaos
    <Aeolus> I think that adds a "carrot"
    <Aeolus> and by keeping track, I mean publicly
    <chaos> it's a means to providing carrots, but i think keeping track publically is the same as the credits list
    <Articuno64> or alternatively, make temporarily sticky topics somewhere each time somebody is given a badge, and then give some links or explanations of what that person did to deserve it
    <chaos> unless the credits is for huge contributions only
    <Articuno64> and people can congratulate them
    <Articuno64> etc
    <Aeolus> well, I dont think someone is going to make the credits for finding a typo in the blastoise other options section
    <chaos> that doesnt solve the "once you get a badge its overwith" problem
    <chaos> arti
    <Articuno64> right
    <chaos> ok
    <chaos> lets not digress
    <Aeolus> that goes back to a graphical representation on their profiles and posts
    <Aeolus> but yes, C&C
    <Aeolus> I'll send a PM to Obi and Mekkah now
    <chaos> well im not done with suggestions
    <Aeolus> oh, proceed :)
    <chaos> we need more literature on what to do. the style guide needs to be more prominent, and it needs to be up2date if its not atm (i dont know, it might be a bit rusty atm)
    <Aeolus> I cleaned it up
    <chaos> ok
    <chaos> well it needs to be a more prominent link then
    <chaos> we need several sticky megathreads as well for minor details
    <chaos> like "the typo edit thread"
    <chaos> etc
    <chaos> ok
    <chaos> perhaps one more thing about how to make edits and what exactly were looking for
    <chaos> like for instance, i gathered this information from ck (i used him as a guinea pig for some stuff)
    <chaos> he was afraid to edit things structurally and at first only corrected typos and minor grammatical mistakes
    * Vincent (Vineon@modemcable042.122-82-70.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #insidescoop
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    <chaos> i want to encourage people to rewrite sections if necessary
    <chaos> there is no stipulation that what is there currently is perm
    <chaos> ok
    <chaos> questions, comments about what i just said?
    <Aeolus> sounds good to me
    <chaos> we can go in detail about all of this stuff later
    <Articuno64> yeah there's definitely a lot of work to be done on literature
    <Aeolus> perhaps we'll write that stuff up
    <Articuno64> i mean steelicks was afraid to add himself to the credits until i told him exactly how to do it
    <Aeolus> you can review it to see if it is what you want
    <chaos> and there is absolutely no reason to be afraid
    <Aeolus> and then we can go back and edit
    <chaos> there is no way for you to fuck stuff up
    <chaos> if you dont have a site staff badge
    <chaos> ok
    <Articuno64> i think that needs to be stressed
    <Articuno64> probably in bold wherever it is lol
    <chaos> i will in the SCMS guide for sure
    <chaos> probably it needs to be done in C&C as well
    <Aeolus> even if you do have a site staff badge, we can reverse stuff, yes?
    <chaos> right
    <Aeolus> so still now way to fuck it up
    <Aeolus> *no
    <chaos> people just need to be more proactive and more bold
    <chaos> nobody is going to yell at you for messing up
    <chaos> i created these tools to ease everyones minds
    <chaos> i want people to use them
    <Aeolus> unless dumb misty creates steelicks looze sections!!
    <chaos> well if youre an admin you can definitely fuck stuff up
    <Misty> lol
    <chaos> ok
    <chaos> next order of business
    <chaos> how do we determine badging from their threads?
    <chaos> is this subjective or objective?
    <Articuno64> it has to be subjective unfortunately
    <Articuno64> but we can try to make some guidelines
    <chaos> do we give typo warriors credit for their stuff
    <Aeolus> yes, but it can be incrementally subjective
    <chaos> or is it a thankless job
    <Aeolus> we could do something like a points system
    <Aeolus> "5 points for a typo fix"
    <Aeolus> and then the points accumulate for a badge
    <Aeolus> and then if we end up adding levels of badges
    <Aeolus> the points could continue to build
    <Aeolus> I dunno how much I like it
    <Articuno64> i'm not sure about that either
    <chaos> its an idea at least.
    <Aeolus> I think it could apply to other badges as well
    <Aeolus> tournament hosts, etc.
    <Aeolus> "host a successful tournament" get 20 points
    * RoyWilliams (~Roy@c-76-30-134-49.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit
    <Aeolus> 100 points for the badge
    <Aeolus> then there could be a depreciation of points
    <Aeolus> again, I'm just brainstorming
    <chaos> i dont overwhelmingly enjoy any idea given so far about this
    <chaos> :(
    <Aeolus> I dont either to be honest
    <Aeolus> but we need a finer way of recognizing people
    <Articuno64> i think we've been pretty good about manual selection of contributors, but it's hard to judge how many we've missed
    <chaos> yes we do
    <chaos> well, im willing to bet some people have made their own sites because they are unable to feel apart of this community
    <Aeolus> the badge threshhold is too high and subjective right now
    <chaos> and if they are worthy enough, why shouldnt we take them in?
    <Articuno64> aeolus' idea about submitting yourself for recognition is interesting
    <chaos> i think its unnecessary though since we can keep track of people via SCMS edits and C&C posts
    <Aeolus> though I dont want people to be able to submit themselves for a badge
  2. Articuno64

    Articuno64 1 to 63 were taken
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    If I remember correctly, further discussion yesterday decided that continued work would result in sup/superscripts being appended onto badges, so you'd have like [contributor badge]^3, etc.

    Any further thoughts on this issue, or is it closed?
  3. chaos

    chaos
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    I think it's closed. There is one issue we haven't resolved though: how do we decide what existing users start at?
  4. Aeolus

    Aeolus Bag
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    Ok so I just did a little messing around with what it might look like:

    Here are superscripts. Obviously the font could me made fancier and the color changed.

    [​IMG]


    Here is a way it could be represented graphically, thereby making the carrot more appetizing. The obvious downside is clutter, lack of symmetry, and an obvious bound to the amount of stars (or whatever icon) someone could accumulate.

    [​IMG]
  5. chaos

    chaos
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    The superscripts will look good when they are actually superscripts (and not simply above the badge) and have the proper font and stuff. Can we move on to how we decide how existing users get assigned levels?
  6. Misty

    Misty oh
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    Aeolus's picture begs the question, are we really going to apply this system to every badge? I'd say only Contributor, Researcher, Artist, and maybe Team Rater could use this treatment.
  7. Misty

    Misty oh
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    Okay, so...

    Op badge - L1 AOp, L2 SOp

    Competitor badge - L1 Mod, L2 Admin

    Site Staff - No ranking

    Tournament Director - [15:36:37] <+Mekkah> tournament director can be done by how many tournaments you've sueccesfully [sic] hosted or something

    Artist - Rankup per picture contributed to the site (which will probably result in AB having a ridiculous rank, but oh well)

    Tutor - Rankup per person tutored, given quality assessment from the tutee

    Team Rater - Anything will be highly subjective, tbqh; I guess you could keep a general assessment of team rating activity and then rank up every so often as long as that activity stays consistent (and helpful). I dunno though.

    Researcher - Like Team Rater, probably very subjective, especially at this point when the majority of the current generation research has concluded ;[ I think the best thing to do is to appoint a sort of "committee" to keep an eye on the research thread and then place rankups every so often.

    Programmer - I don't think this is properly rankable, programming is a difficult job to quantify.

    Ladybug - I'd say unrankable.

    Contributor - The hard part. I'd say...

    Rankup at 5 analyses written
    Rankup at 20 analyses written
    Rankup at 50 analyses written
    Rankup at 100 analyses written
    (we'd probably need a fifth gen with phuquoph or i still here to pass 100 but I guess we could have stuff like 200)
    Rankup for each good article, perhaps a second rankup if the article is of exceptional quality (breeding guide) if approved by an admin

    Dunno if we really want to do a bunch of rankups for edits... apparently Arti seems to think that we are in a position to keep an eye on this, so I guess I'd say something like, rankup per 20 "quality" edits or something ?_?
  8. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    I think that when the rank is getting hard to measure (Team Rater, Researcher) you should either ditch the idea there or make it really simple such as dividing by "regular contribution" and "has contributed before/contributes occasionally". To be honest I am even less for this than at first but it seems to be decided already.

    I wonder if this will be sueccesfull...
  9. Aeolus

    Aeolus Bag
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    I'm okay with Op and Competitor auth remaining how they are. The idea here is to encourage further work and those badges aren't about work... they are just status markers.

    It is the other badges that represent incremental contributions that have be considered and I like Misty's suggestions.

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