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Voting Endeavor / Helping Hand

Discussion in 'Policy Center' started by Its_A_Random, Mar 15, 2013.

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  1. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    Please do not post here unless you are a Council Member or Deck Knight. Anyone else who posts here WILL be infracted. Thank you.

    Endeavor / Helping Hand

    Okay, so there has been many a demand to do something about these moves, & there is demand to put these to a vote on IRC & in feedback, so...

    Endeavour & Helping Hand are two strange, but potentially overpowered moves when combined with themselves. The former, when combined with itself, is often being seen as a lynch-pin for an instant one for one, that is, a quick, easy KO, which takes little set-up to facilitate, especially given the Base Energy Cost of said move (16+(Gap÷1.75^2)+((Gap-(Gap÷1.75))÷1.75^2)), where Gap is the initial HP Gap before the combo) is often far cheaper compared to the final energy cost (The HP Gap could be 180 & you could still afford the BEC if you have 100 Energy). The latter has a somewhat similar issue—albeit not as overpowered—with being able to Mega Helping Hand some powerful move with an initial BAP of 29 or less (BEC=12+(2B÷2)+(4B÷2), where B is the initial BAP), & potentially create a one for one as well.

    Here are the two moves as they stand:
    [BOX]Endeavor: The Pokemon recalls the hardships of the match and tries its hardest to pound that experience into its opponent. Will not work if the user has more health than its target. Endeavor can only be used once if Endure was used that round.

    Attack Power: Fixed Damage = (Target HP - User HP) / 1.75 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 + (Calculated Damage / 1.75) | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Force[/BOX]
    [BOX]Helping Hand: The Pokemon releases a bolt of blue energy, doubling the Base Attack Power of another ally’s move in the same action. The doubling occurs before the 75% Base Attack Power reduction on a spread attack. The minimum increase in Base Attack Power that can be offered by this move is six (6).

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 + (Adjusted BAP of Ally's Move / 2) | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 5 | CT: Passive[/BOX]
    It was quickly suggested that the Combo Type of both moves should be changed to None in order to get rid of combos involving them entirely, which got a bit of support:
    [BOX]Endeavor: The Pokemon recalls the hardships of the match and tries its hardest to pound that experience into its opponent. Will not work if the user has more health than its target. Endeavor can only be used once if Endure was used that round.

    Attack Power: Fixed Damage = (Target HP - User HP) / 1.75 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 + (Calculated Damage / 1.75) | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Force[/BOX]
    [BOX]Helping Hand: The Pokemon releases a bolt of blue energy, doubling the Base Attack Power of another ally’s move in the same action. The doubling occurs before the 75% Base Attack Power reduction on a spread attack. The minimum increase in Base Attack Power that can be offered by this move is six (6).

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 + (Adjusted BAP of Ally's Move / 2) | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 5 | CT: None[/BOX]
    But some users complained that this way of fixing either move was too extreme. As a result, a less extreme method—Putting a must have enough energy clause to both moves—was suggested, & also gained support:
    [BOX]Endeavor: The Pokemon recalls the hardships of the match and tries its hardest to pound that experience into its opponent. Will not work if the user has more health than its target. Endeavor can only be used once if Endure was used that round. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack.

    Attack Power: Fixed Damage = (Target HP - User HP) / 1.75 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 + (Calculated Damage / 1.75) | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Force[/BOX]
    [BOX]Helping Hand: The Pokemon releases a bolt of blue energy, doubling the Base Attack Power of another ally’s move in the same action. The doubling occurs before the 75% Base Attack Power reduction on a spread attack. The minimum increase in Base Attack Power that can be offered by this move is six (6). The user of Helping Hand must have enough energy to use the attack or it will fail.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 + (Adjusted BAP of Ally's Move / 2) | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 5 | CT: Passive[/BOX]
    Of course, this has the downside of affecting the moves themselves, but it also puts a soft cap on both moves for combining, cutting the usefulness of the combos dramatically, & like the CT None proposal, removing the whole BEC can of worms that has caused many disputes of late.

    Council Members will vote on two things, one vote for Endeavour, & the other vote on Helping Hand. Both votes will be conducted IRV-Style, which means that you must list all three options for both voting slates. Your voting slate is as follows:
    [BOX]What should we do with Endeavor?
    Do not change Endeavor
    Change Endeavor's CT to None
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor

    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Do not change Helping Hand
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand[/BOX]
    For both, nothing changes if Option 1 is chosen. If Option 2 is chosen, that move has its CT changes to None. If Option 3 is chosen, then that move has a "Must Have Enough Energy" clause added to it.

    First to four votes for either is a majority, but otherwise, I guess we need to vote on these things.
  2. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    What should we do with Endeavor?
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor
    Change Endeavor's CT to None
    Do not change Endeavor

    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand
    Do not change Helping Hand
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None

    Odds are that I am probably going to be shot by other council members for doing this, but w/e. On topic, & well, a nerf is probably better than going to extremes, imo, but it depends on what everyone else has to say...
  3. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    What should we do with Endeavor?
    Do not change Endeavor
    Change Endeavor's CT to None
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor


    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Do not change Helping Hand
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand
  4. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    What should we do with Endeavor?
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor
    Change Endeavor's CT to None
    Do not change Endeavor


    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None
    Do not change Helping Hand
  5. Elevator Music

    Elevator Music
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    What should we do with Endeavor?
    Change Endeavor's CT to None
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor
    Do not change Endeavor


    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand
    Do not change Helping Hand
  6. Objection

    Objection

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    What should we do with Endeavor?
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor
    Change Endeavor's CT to None
    Do not change Endeavor


    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None
    Do not change Helping Hand


    I don't know about Helping Hand, but iirc a "must have enough energy" clause for Endeavor means that the most damage you could actually do with an Endeavor combo is 30-something, which is sensible enough (for a combo of all things) that I don't feel we need to jump to CT: None for it.
  7. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
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    What should we do with Endeavor?
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor
    Do not change Endeavor

    Change Endeavor's CT to None

    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Do not change Helping Hand
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None
  8. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    What should we do with Endeavor?
    Change Endeavor's CT to None
    Do not change Endeavor
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor

    What should we do with Helping Hand?
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None
    Do not change Helping Hand
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand
  9. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    Voting concludes.

    Endeavour, voting round 1:
    Do not change Endeavor - 1 Vote
    Change Endeavor's CT to None - 2 Votes
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor - 4 Votes

    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Endeavor wins by majority.

    Helping Hand, Voting Round 1:
    Do not change Helping Hand - 2 Votes
    Change Helping Hand's CT to None - 2 Votes
    Adopt a "Must Have Enough Energy" Clause for Helping Hand - 3 Votes

    Unable to remove one minority option, viewing both potential options...

    In both scenarios, "Must have enough EN" wins the vote 4-3. Will be implemented assuming no objections?
  10. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    I object. Taking into account Arrow's impossibility theorem and considering the consequences of Condorcet's paradox...

    ...

    ... it's fine. Go ahead and implement'em.
  11. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random Solves issues recursively
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    Implemented both, well not me, but yeah. It is official.
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