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Endgame - A Stable Offence RMT

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by sora13, Mar 27, 2010.

  1. sora13

    sora13

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    521
    Endgame : A Stable Offence RMT

    Introduction


    This team started out with a goal: to use unexpected sets, and by this, I do not mean sets like CB Shuckle, but stuff that doesn’t come first to your mind when you see a place. I deemed that they had to be viable. This condition, for me, could mean two things:
    a) have unexpected sets on expected pokemon but ones that still worked well even after the surprise is gone
    b) have unexpected pokemon that worked well.
    In addition, I wanted to use three certain pokemon that fit these conditions that seemed to do really well. When I have previously used them, they seemed to do well on their own, but couldn’t reach their full potential due to being stuck on a bad team. They were not the greatest in terms of synergy by themselves, but hey, you’ve got the rest of the team to look at and fix up synergy problems. And these three pokemon were: Lead Togekiss, Specially Bulky SD Scizor, and SDInfernape (anyone who knows me shoud’ve been expecting this poke!).

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    After I had used Togekiss in the lead position for a while in another one of my mediocre teams, I knew I needed a Rock and Electric resist to switch in with Togekiss. Ground resists/ is immune to both of those types, and I knew that if I was going to have a bulky Ground, I wanted Stealth Rock on it since I didn’t have anyone else with it at the moment. So Flygon and Hippowdon were instantly out, Flygon because of his frailty, and Hippowdon because he was expected. Then I thought about putting Donphan in, and it seemed to click. He would give me Rapid Spin too! After a while, though, I found I didn’t need the Rapid Spin support, and he was too vulnerable to Bulky Waters in general. I was looking into another Ground resist and almost switched out another very good member for a Ground resist, and I almost did, until I discovered a beast of a poke: Torterra. He had all the resistances I wanted, checked what I wanted, set up SR, had Wood Hammer for those damn waters, wasn’t expected. After a bit of testing, he earned his place on this team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    After looking over what I currently had in this team, I noticed a huge Rotom and Heatran weakness, and I needed something to absorb those WoWs and Overheats and Scizor and Torterra. And what better pokemon than Heatran to absorb Fire attacks? The only thing right now left was to get a set. I instantly took off Choice Scarf, or even Shuca Berry due to their run of the mill status. I first tried Choice Specs. It had solid power, but I found the Choice Specs too limiting, and I decided I needed another Heatran set, as Heatran itself wasn’t the problem, as it provided the fantastic resists I wanted, but the Choice Specs was the main problem. However, one thing I liked about Choice Specs was the power and ability to weaken Bulky Waters for Infernape and Scizor, so I decided I wanted one with these traits. I remembered some top battlers recommending Taunt LO Heatran in other RMTs and I noticed it did both of what I wanted. After testing, I kept him.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The team seemed pretty complete as of right now, and I wanted to throw in another electric resist especially since I know throwing in one resist on a team that’s weak to electric is never gonna hold up, true for all teams. Besides, stuff like Jolteon and Zapdos would have no trouble at all with Torterra, with Hp Ice and Heat Wave, respectively. Obviously Blissey was gonna slow the team down way too much, unlike Torterra who provided free switches to my other pokes. I figured I wanted some more special bulk. I decided to look in the OU combo thread, where I came across an interesting combo: Scizor + Latias. Latias gave me an Electric resist, and gave me special bulk. She also gave an Infernape counter, who I used to be extremely weak to. I tried the LO Draco Bomber set for some time, but while it worked fine, I relied on her too much for a lot of threats, and needed to make her more tankish. However, I didn’t want an “immobile” wall, one that let other pokes set-up. Thus, I decided to try a defensive CM set that had speed but was defensive enough for my liking. It worked well, and it stuck giving us the final lineup:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Overall strategy: I’ll keep this simple, but essentially overwhelm the walls that wall my sweepers, Scizor and Infernape, by using chiefly Togekiss (flinch hax J) and Heatran to weaken the opposition’s walls, then have a field day with the opponent. Infernape and Scizor also tend to break down for each other. I like to call this team Stable Offence.

    A Marriland Team Builder Chart for your viewing pleasure.
    [​IMG]

    Now, onto the actual members! Keep in mind that edits are in red!

    Team

    [​IMG]

    Togekiss @ Lum Berry
    Modest
    160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Sp. Atk
    -Thunder Wave
    -Air Slash
    -Fire Blast
    -Roost

    Well, this clearly isn’t your run of the mill suicide lead, isn’t it? The best way to start a game with flich hax :P. But all kidding aside, I am convinced that this is the best lead in the game currently. Never have I seen something that beats so many leads, gets the ball rolling so effectively and so fast, and survives so long even when in the lead position. In my mind, this only primarily fails to beat Gliscor (Air Slash does 40%), Dragonite(they still get air slashed) , Aerodactyl (damn Taunt), Tyranitar (switch to Torterra) and Trick Scarfers. That’s IT. ALL variants of Metagross leads, with or without occa, are easily 2HKOed by Fire Blast, and Togekiss is faster than standard versions. With the defensive EVs, Meteor Mash will never 2HKO without a attack raise. If they SR, all the better for me. With almost every other lead, I paralyze and proceed to kill with Air Slash flinch hax. Another point I need to reinforce about Togekiss is that it simply does not die. With Roost, I am able to recover from most attacks as well as get rid of my weaknesses, which is the main reason Togekiss survives so long. It can even paraflinch Rotom effectively due to Roost’s effect of negating T-Bolt’s effectiveness! Walls are almost helpess against this guy. Air Slash is decently powerful to take care of most nonresist pokes in around 2-5 hits. Thunder Wave is standard on most Togekiss for a reason, and I have tried Body Slam before, but it was too unreliable for my liking. Fire Blast is really nice for Togekiss, as it 2KOes most Jirachi, Bronzongs, Metagrosses and OHKOes Foretress, Skarmory, and Scizor. Roost is the obligatory recovery move for Togekiss. Lum Berry is really nice, as a lot of people rely on paralyzing Togekiss to stop it, but Lum Berry throws a wrench in there. It also allows it to beat Roserade and Smeargle.

    Some Damage Calcs to demonstrate it’s survivablity:

    Defensive Rotom Thunderbolt: 53.6% - 63.8%

    Lead Aerodactyl Rock Slide: 49.6% - 58.7%

    Lead Metagross Meteor Mash: 42.7% - 50.4%

    Lead Metagross Bullet Punch: 17.1% - 20.5%

    Togekiss’s Fire Blast against said Metagross(without Occa): 72.5% - 85.7%

    New MixMence Draco Meteor: 66.1% - 78.1%

    New MixMence Outrage: 51.6% - 61%

    Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch: 37.9% - 44.7%

    LO Starmie Hydro Pump: 53.8% - 63.5%

    LO Starmie Ice Beam/ Thunderbolt: 57% - 67.2%

    [​IMG]

    Torterra @ Yache Berry
    Impish
    252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def /
    -Wood Hammer
    -Earthquake
    -Stealth Rock
    -Roar

    When the Stone Edges and T-bolts really start flying, this is usually what I bring in. He is an all purpose check for a lot of pokes, my main QuakeEdge resist, he sets up SR for me very reliably, he is my phazer, my main status absorber, and mostly just pure utility. That isn’t saying that he doesn’t hit hard! Wood Hammer on average does around 45% to most Rotom-A’s, which is a lot considering it’s a defensive pokemon who’s attacking! This means he isn’t set up on as easily that’s a very good thing for this team to have. However, he still is quite a good defensive pokemon, as he has eaten a +2 CC from Lucario at full health and lived! Earthquake is very standard, and it shouldn’t be a surprise for this type of team. It deals with the inevitable Infernape and Heatran switch-ins. Stealth Rock is gonna be necessary on this offensive team so that’s set. I used to have Stone Edge in Roar’s spot, but the main problem is that it doesn’t do enough damage to Gyarados and Salamence(damn Intimidate! L) to warrant the slot. So now, when they try to set-up on me, they get Roared out. This also helps from set-up sweepers dominating Torterra. I generally use Torterra as sacrificial bait after he has set-up SR, as that is the single most important thing he can do(set up SR). I encourage all of you guys to use Torterra as I certainly do not regret it.

    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Life Orb
    Timid
    4 HP / 252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spd
    -Fire Blast
    -Earth Power
    -HP Grass
    -Substitute

    Amazing. Just god damn amazing. Man, what a beast. Never have I seen something with so much immediate power. Many people doubt Heatran’s sweeping power. But the truth of fact is, bar Blissey, Snorlax and resists, Heatran 2KOes every single pokemon in the OU tier, which is certainly of Uber proportions, its STAB Fire Blast is certainly a danger to most. It’s my initial source of wall breaking power, most times, coming into those Will-o-Wisps/Overheats from Rotom that it was meant to absorb. I used this poke to cover up the Fire weaknesses of Torterra and Scizor, and the Flash Fire boost does wonders to this poke, allowing it to 2KO Blissey with SR up. That’s right, Blissey. Many Tyranitar are a problem for Heatran, but certainly not this one, as it 2KOes 252 HP with Earth Power, as long as SR is up, which it usually is. He softens up the mold of the team for Scizor and Infernape to clean up, which he does an excellent job at. Put Substitute over Taunt cause Taunt didn't really help against stall but Sub just owns offensive teams more than Taunt does.

    [​IMG]

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Timid
    152 HP / 104 Sp. Atk / 252 Spd
    -Calm Mind
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Recover
    -Thunderbolt

    Ahaha, I love this thing. She has the ability to set-up on almost any special attacker that she is faster than, as even Rotom-A’s Shadow Balls are set-up on. That’s how much bulk this thing has. She is one of the best mono attackers(of course) having arguably the best mono attacking STAB. Another plus is that it totally craps on Blissey. TOTALLY. She is mere set-up fodder for this Latias, as the only way she can stop Latias is with Toxic. At +6, Latias 2KOes Blissey with Dragon Pulse. And speaking of Thunderbolt, I use this move to deter Gyarados, who used to be a be of a problem but this is now solved.

    [​IMG]

    Scizor @ Iron Plate
    Adamant
    232 HP / 96 Atk / 180 Sp. Def
    -Swords Dance
    -Bullet Punch
    -Brick Break
    -Roost

    This guy is one of the base pillars of my team and this wonderful Scizor spread allows him to set-up easily on pretty much every bulky water and Ground (as most of their attacks do around 35%~), alternating between Roost and SD, while finally smacking them aside with a powerful Bullet Punch. Really, I cannot emphasize how easily it is to get 3 Swords Dances with this thing. He contributes to the synergy of the team by being Fire bait for Heatran and a Latias counter who does especially well against her due to this spread. This is a relatively standard Bulky SD set with a few edits, such as roost over a Bug or Dark attack, and the EVs. Thanks to Roost Scizor stays in the game for a really long time, and most people don't see it coming, so they may have to make another switch. Scizor doesn't usually come in until late game, but when I see an oppurtunity to SD I'll throw him in a bit early. He doesn’t really fear Magnezone, as even a Scarf HP fire fails to OHKO him at full health, while he KOes back with a +2 Brick Break. Leftovers is superfluous on this particular Scizor as it doesn’t need the bulk. Life Orb wasn’t an option for me on this kind of set, so I threw in Iron Plate, which works well because I use Bullet Punch most of the time. Scizor really needed the extra power with the lack of Attack EVs and it allows him to OHKO a few more things with that boost.

    [​IMG]

    Infernape @ Fist Plate

    Jolly
    6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    -Swords Dance
    -Close Combat
    -Flare Blitz
    -Mach Punch

    Swords Dance Infernape. I couldn’t help adding this guy because this guy (Infernape in general) has been THE favorite poke since I don’t know when. I’ve used every kind of Ape, Nasty Plot, CB, CS, Mixed. All of these Infernapes are great, but none except Nasty Plot compare to the raw power of SD Infernape. The power an +2 Close Combat packs is just AMAZING. I decimates all of it’s usually switch ins, only Latias can come in safely, and if Latias is slower than Infernape, even it’s going down with a +2 Stone Edge (which isn’t usually the case, admittedly). Vaporeon? +2 Close Combat is a clean OHKO. Skarmory coming in to absorb CCs? +2 Fire Punch cleanly OHKOes him, too. Scarftran coming in to take you out with Earth Power? Mach Punch to the rescue! Zapdos coming in to take weak Fire Blasts? Flare Blitz him to hell, OHKOing without boosts. Tenta? +2 Close Combat OHKOes with SR up, and even the sightest bit of damage after SR guarantees her death. Hippowdon and Suicune(Offensive gets OHKOed) both take a hefty 85% Close Combat, severly damaged. Most Hippowdons are leads, which means a Air Slash gurantees. This has a few distinct advantages over Luke. Compared to Luke who depends on ExtremeSpeed to kill faster foes, Infernape has the raw speed to outspeed Zapdos, Gliscor, Salamence. He still has priority is the form of Mach Punch. This particular Infernape has a different item and moves than your standard SDape. I has Flare Blitz, and Fist Plate to boost CC and Mach Punch. This way, most of the time, I dont have recoil and I can OHKO Zapdos, Gliscor, and Rotom-A with a boosted Flare Blitz, and since I don't have LO, I don't have to worry about excessive recoil and the raise base power more than makes up for the loss of the 1.3x LO kick gaining much more power than Fire Punch with LO. This guy pretty much decimates stall teams on his own after a boost. Infernape is the poke that I absolutely will not replace.

    Final Note
    Whew! I took a lot of time to make this and now that I'm finally done, I'm hoping I can get a good rate from this. Rate away, but I just want you to keep in mind that I will not take away the base pokes of this team, but EV changes and set changes are OK. The other three are replaceable, even though it will take some convincing and testing. So there you are, Endgame.
  2. MetaNite

    MetaNite
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Hi there. Very creative team. It looks like you have a bit of a Gyarados weakness. Torterra may be able to Roar it out after it Dragon Dances, but if you sacrifice it early on you obviously won't be able to and that still doesn't permanently solve the problem. The rest of your Pokemon can easily be defeated between Waterfall and Stone Edge. A fairly easy way to solve this problem is to give Latias Thunderbolt over Refresh. You lose the ability to reliably beat Blissey but in turn get a good Gyarados check.

    Another troublesome Pokemon for this team, and most others is Dragon Dance Salamence. If it sets up, you are pretty much battling a 50/50 chance with confusion to come out on top. Without a Choice Band and a lot of attack EVs, even Scizor becomes a very poor check to it. Exactly why I think Choice Band Scizor would do much better than your current one. U-turn will severely weaken Pokemon such as Rotom-A and Suicune so Infernape can finish them off later, otherwise Ape could be screwed. Choice Band Scizor can also trap Latias with Pursuit if you come in on a Draco Meteor or weak Dragon Pulse. This will also be hugely beneficial to your Infernape sweep, as Latias is one of Ape's main counters. Same can be said for Starmie, though you'll have to be more careful with Life Orb variants. Good luck.
  3. sora13

    sora13

    Joined:
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    I will try out thunderbolt on latiAs and see how it works out as I have noticed I have a bit of trouble with gyara not enough though. However choice band scizor on this team would be kind of paradoxical as it is expected but more importantly it opens me up even more to ironically gyara and set up pokes. Salamence really can't set up well on this team even though it seems he has a few places he isn't dangerous enough. In addition I tried him out before and most of the time he did other than scouting and I'm sure every body knows what cb scizor does was let other pokes set up. I know how well he works with sdape but I find all those pokemons are either eliminated or wekeaned by togekiss or heatran. I would like to thank you though for a wonderful rate:)
  4. Plus

    Plus 10 in.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

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    Hi sora, I just got your PM.

    Your Gyarados weakness is rather large, it can set up on a pokemon that isn't threatening instantly like your Latias, or Infernape when they are especially bulky. Perhaps if you really like a bulky Latias yet still keep the Gyarados weakness manageable, you could try a Restalk variant of Latias running Dragon pulse and thunderbolt. Though you dont really get the set up sweeper you want, in return you get a better status absorber and a response to Gyarados. You can keep the same EVs for that Latias as you would for Restalk.

    I would recommend running Trick Togekiss over your current one, you outspeed most leads and flinch them before they can even try something. Against leads that will obviously switch out, you can trick their switch in. The set would be:

    Togekiss @ Scarf
    Timid 252 Spa|176 Spe|80 HP
    Air Slash/Fire Blast/Trick/Grass Knot

    Lastly, I'd like to suggest Yache Torterra so you have another response to Gyarados, in which you can Roar it away before it sweeps through your team. Additionally, you can also OHKO Mamoswine and hit standard Vap and cune for 50+ should they try and pull an ice move on you.

    Interesting team, I tried my best to help you while still keeping an unorthodox fashion, good luck.
  5. AkaneMizuki

    AkaneMizuki

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    I agree with T-bolt over refresh. You have scizor to anti blissey, since scizor's bullet punch could care less about paralysis and boasts an immunity to toxic. I agree with you that CB Scizor is just set up fodder for salamence and gyarados. I would switch iron plate to leftovers or life orb, for more bulk or damage respectively.
  6. sora13

    sora13

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    Thank you for your input, but I think that you kept the unorthdox theme too much with Laitas, as I think the suggestion that MetaNite posted will do beter for my purposes, thank you though. I will definitely change Torterra to a Yache variant, great suggestion. I'm not to fond of a Trick Scarf Togekiss as I know how it works having used it and it's not suited for this type of team. Most pokes are gonna switch out after the first Air Slash and with my set I paralyze them and can take on the switch in.

    Thank yoou for the rate though.
  7. Acritter

    Acritter

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
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    454
    I remember playing you, vaguely. I remember that the SD Scizor followed by Infernape was pretty hard on my team, and don't remember who won. It seems to me like LO Starmie with BoltBeam would wreck your team pretty badly, outspeeding everything on your team and hitting for SE on all but Scizor, which it hits neutrally. On the other hand, you have 2 Pokemon that hit it SE, both of which will take incredible pain from whatever attack it brings out. Only Latias really stands a chance, and Latias can have a ScarfTar brought in for a Crunch/Pursuit kill. A Scarfed Heatran might help if it kept running HP Grass, as well as giving you a near-definite outrunning revenge killer. Just something to consider.
  8. sora13

    sora13

    Joined:
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    Iron plate is the option that i liked best after trying out all of them as he really didnt need the extra healing, being as bulky as he is, but Life orb doesn't work on that bulky of a poke. Iron Plate found a balance and boosted my main attack(Brick Break's usages didnt need a power boost to do its job). In addition, I forgot to mention that I can bluff a choice item with iron plate, which helps later on.

    Lol i agree that LOStarmie is definitely a pain to this team, but i just added yache to Torterra so I gained another check for now, so I think i should be better for now. Again, Heatran is just allowing Salamence and Gyara to set up much easier and as stated before, I have weaknesses to those two.
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    I really don't think that iron plate does enough for your Scizor to make it an effective method of dealing with salamence. You do 50% max to the standard, which will allow it to KO Scizor and at least two other pokemon before it goes down to LO recoil. You might be able to force it into outrage, letting something die, then KO it with Scizor, but with this method Scizor must be at a pretty good level of health, because Outrage does around 50-60%. For this reason I fully support the use of Choice Band Scizor. Scizor does not become setup bait nearly as easily as any other choice user, because of U-turn. Pretty much any situation where you don't use U-turn, you are taking out a serious threat in a way that SD Scizor couldn't.

    I do wonder if you could simply try a scarf Latias, rather than going for CB Scizor. This would allow you to easily revenge-kill DDmence and Gyarados. Trick is always useful too, for taking out various walls. I think you would really miss Latias as a sweeper though, and Scarf Latias really is pursuit and setup bait.

    I don't think that Torterra needs that speed. The only notable pokemon who have slightly higher base speed than you are Empoleon, Tyranitar, Magnezone and Swampert. Defensive variations of TTar that you might outrun cannot touch you, and are hurt badly by Wood Hammer, and so will usually just switch out. Empoleon runs more speed than that usually, as does Magnezone, and Swampert usually runs a relaxed nature. Not to mention all of these Pokemon really fear your powerful attacks.Therefore I suggest taking all EVs out of speed and placing them into Defence (and 4 into attack.)

    I would highly recommend the scarf lead Togekiss as suggested by Plus. Most of your team functions well without paralysis support, and this just allows you to kill your opponents faster, often giving no oppotunity to them whatsoever. It also lets you cripple some leads that you can't beat so easily. I should add that although Grass Knot will 2HKO most Tyranitar leads, Aura Sphere is an option too, since it lets you hit Heatran for some acceptable damage, and 2HKOes all Tyranitar, OHKOing more offensive variants. Swampert can be crippled by Trick and is outrun even after you have tricked your scarf. Grass knot will not OHKO Swampert most of the time anyway, unless you run a modest nature and miss out on Aerodactyl.

    I should add that your Heatran has very little chance to 2HKO Blissey even after a flash fire boost. The standard according to the analysis is never 2HKOed, even after SR in Sandstorm. This makes me wonder how much taunt is really worth it. You could easily have explosion there, giving you a massively powerful move (obviously with a naive nature.) Your Scizor doesn't care too much for status, apart from a burn, which is obviously irrelevant when Heatran is in. It seems to me that most other things that will recover in the face of a Life orb heatran can hit you pretty hard (Latias, Vaporeon), making taunt a risky option there too.

    This is a very nice team, and there was nothing really obvious here, so I hope the suggestions were helpful.

    Good luck.
  10. sora13

    sora13

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    Salamence really has no place to set up on this particular team, as every member can deal with it in some way be it killing, phazing, or whatever. Most dont set up on Infernape as they think he has hp ice, and once they figure out i usually have an sd so i can do massive damage with cc and mach punch afterwards.

    As mentioned i already tried scarf togekiss as it nowhere near the current durability that my togekiss does and most people switch out their poke so that they cannot be flinched to death.

    I agree with your decision about speed evs, I will take them out as soon as possible.

    As for Heatran, I find that when i have explosion on it I use it at the wrong times and when i really need my heatran, it's already gone so that is why i really like taunt instead, it shuts down stall and prevents any temptations.
  11. Darkvirus

    Darkvirus

    Joined:
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    292
    a good lead togekiss and a rather under rated one is helped greatly by a move called encore using your same ev spread ect i woudl suggest you change it to

    Togekiss @ Lum Berry
    Modest
    160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Sp. Atk
    -Thunder Wave
    -Air Slash
    -Encore
    -Roost

    In doing so you can Thunderwave on turn 1 and that gurantees you will be faster on turn 2 meaning you get a guranteed encore on them which will often lock them into SR and as they then switch if locked into a setup move thats another free thunderwave on something brought in to try revenge kill/wall you
  12. sora13

    sora13

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    I've considered encore before, and I do think it deserves a test so I will test out encore.
  13. WoOoShoOo!!

    WoOoShoOo!!

    Joined:
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    Hi!

    I haven't rated in ages so I'm not that good. :D Anyways, I wanted to suggest Choice Scarf Latias, with that you can eliminate threats such as Gyarados, Salamence and other possible threats that may cause problems to your team. I'm not sure if you totally agree with this but really, this works great for your team.. I suck... T_T. I hope this helps! Good Luck!
  14. sora13

    sora13

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    Unofortunately as stated before a revenge killer would be nice but I prefer a Latias with bulk and the ability to do some damage as then there wouldd be no opponent set-up in the first place.
  15. Piccolo

    Piccolo

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    Jul 19, 2009
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    I notice half of the team is weak to Ice-type moves. Yache Berry on Torterra doesn't cut it - it still takes 2x damage. A Weavile or Mamoswine could cause you some trouble. Weavile outspeeds all your party members and hits hard with Ice Punch, while Mamoswine has its prioritized Ice Shard.

    Dragon Dancing Gyarados and Salamence are also hard to stop. Salamence and Gyarados can come in to Intimidate and set up on Scizor or Infernape. After they get a Dragon Dance up, it will be very hard for you to counter them... I see Latias being able to discourage Gyarados, which usually lack Ice Fang.

    To stop Salamence, I suggest you change your Heatran to the Scarfed variant. This way, you can switch in on Outrage or Flamethrower, and proceed to OHKO Salamence with Dragon Pulse.
  16. sora13

    sora13

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    Both Salamence and Gyarados have trouble setting up at all, and as for heatran, I need as a wall-breaker on this particular team.

    Look at some of my replies to earlier posts.
  17. sora13

    sora13

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    Bump! Please rate this team
  18. sora13

    sora13

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    After playing some more and getting more suggestion, I have finally put Substitute over Taunt to help against offensive teams on Heatran.

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