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Entry Hazards - Are They Broken?

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Faint, Apr 28, 2013.

?

Are Entry Hazards Broken?

  1. Yes

    9.3%
  2. No

    56.4%
  3. No, but Stealth Rock is broken

    31.1%
  4. Other (please post)

    3.2%
Thread Status:
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  1. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    A discussion with a couple of my friends and I sparked an interesting argument on whether or not entry hazards are broken. I'm curious to see what the general consensus of this site believes. Keep in mind this discussion is limited to entry hazards only, meaning Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic Spikes.

    The poll above grants 4 options. Yes, No, Stealth Rock is broken and Other. I deliberately made these choices very broad, as I'd encourage you to post if you decide to vote. There have been more direct approaches to similar topics in the past which have not ended well, therefore please be considerate if you chose to argue against another user's opinion.

    If you believe a specific entry hazard should be nerfed, such as Stealth Rock, you may give an example why. Just be sure it is something reasonable and can be debated. You may also discuss the impact entry hazards have on the metagame. This can mean the prevalence of spinners, spikers and so on. Again, just make sure it relates to the larger discussion here: whether or not hazards are broken.

    Keep in mind this thread does not relate to any potential suspect test or banning of entry hazards. It's merely a place for people to discuss their opinions on one of the biggest factors in competitive play.

    This discussion is not limited to the OU tier.
  2. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    I really don't see how anyone could think entry hazards are broken. If we ban entry hazards, we might as well also ban Leftovers because they negate part of entry hazards' damage. I honestly have a hard time keep SR up alone let alone multiple layers of Spikes/TSpikes, with offensive powerhouses and rapid spin everywhere stopping my chance too. And it's not like 4th gen where you had a wide variety of Spinblockers to choose from, there's two ghost types in OU, and only one is defensively based. And Jellicent isn't the best choice of a Bulkymon to begin with in the first place. It's extremely easy to get hazards off the playing field, and there's not a single overly good hazard setter in the metagame anymore after Deoxys-D's ban. Definitely not broken.
  3. Curtains

    Curtains

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    I don't think you could nerf SR. it is either there or it isnt.

    As far as hazards go they are not broken at all. they actually balance out the metagame well so threats like salamence, volcarona, tornadus are all more manageable. Additionally most of the spin blockers aren't that great defensively. Jellecent is probably the best one since it can deal with starmie. Even then, starmie probably 2hkos with lo thunder. Also tenta has fun setting up on all jellicent sets. Hazards are fine and i would guarantee nearly all competent battlers would agree.
  4. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    The main complaint about Stealth Rock is its discriminating nature against types that are already far from ideal defensively.
  5. Alexander.

    Alexander.
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    Nice thread, this is definitely a good topic to speak about :).

    Anyways,

    I'll start talking about Stealth Rock, the most common entry hazards which we can find nowadays. In my opinion the presence of the Stealth Rock in the current metagame makes it better. I mean, the Stealth Rock stop threats like Volcarona, Dragonite, Tornadus, Thundurus-T and Salamence to be not too strong. In a metagame where Stealth Rock aren't, there would be lots of Volcarona and Dragonite and similiar mons which have some problems with Stealth Rock and that's not very good in my opinion. As I already said, without Stealth Rock the metagame would be very different but I'm not sure if it would be better than the current, it could be even more centralized than now, where mons like Volcarona and Dragonite would be on the top of the tier instead of Landorus-I and Keldeo. In short, the Stealth Rock aren't broken imo, and they can remain allowed in the OU tier without any problem. Even Spikes are ok, there is a few mons which can be a good Spikes users and there aren't very good spin-blocker available in BW2 OU, Gengar and Jellicent are the best but Gengar loses to Starmie and Tentacruel (without Thunder) and Jellicent loses to Toxic Tentacruel which is quite common nowadays since the Toxic Spikes one isn't very useful in the current metagame. Yeah, Toxic Spikes aren't really useful, while they allow to block more easily threats like Keldeo and Terrakion, in BW2 OU there are lots of Flying-types (Landorus, Thundurus-T) and lots of Levitate users (Lati Twins, Gengar), also Poison-types like Venusaur and Toxicroak can remove the Toxic Spikes simple switching in. In summary, I think any types of entry hazards are broken, especially because the actually spin-blockers aren't good at all, they are definitely not for Ubers tier and they're ok in the OU tier.

    Ah, oh well, I have only spoken about entry hazards in the OU tier, not in tiers like UU, RU and NU. This simple because I don't play at all UU, RU etc so I don't know pretty well these tiers.
  6. Kidogo

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    @homeslice, I think part of the question is whether it was really deo-d's ability to set up hazards or the hazards' inherent power that made it broken. They sorta add up to the same thing in terms of what is banworthy, but its an important distinction nonetheless. Deo-d was a decent mon, good defenses balanced by awful HP, fine offenses and speed with a goodish movepool. But literally add SR and spikes (and maybe taunt, since part of deo-d's prowess was how good it was at preventing other hazard setters from getting them up) and it's broken. So was it deo-d or those moves that were broken? A comparable example would be if machamp got sheer cold. Machamp is clearly not broken, and neither is its ability, but add sheer cold to the mix and you have something that is clearly broken (hackmons notwithstanding :P). OHKO moves are banned, which sorta suggests a parallel for the deo-d case.

    @curtains and alexander, well yes, SR does help contain many dangerous offensive threats. But on the other hand, the ones you listed are the very very good pokemon that are now only very good pokemon due to SR--a good thing for the meta. But what about the pokemon that would otherwise be just "good", and are now unusable because of rocks? Things like moltres, gyarados, abomasnow, yanmega, heck the vast majority of fire, bug, and ice types are completely unusable in OU (and notice, of the viable mons of these types, basically all of them have a secondary type that resists SR--scizor, forry, heatran, mamoswine, etc.). The fact that flying types are noticeably more useful even when they dont have a neutrality is also telling--they trade being weak to SR for being immune to spikes and tspikes. Honestly, part of the reason that hail and sun are so rare and outclassed by the other weathers has to do with the type advantages that are caused by SR's presence.

    How many times have we heard people call SR the best move in the game? I wonder if the reason we havent considered it being broken is because we've accepted it as part of "standard battle conditions", so we adapt the meta to fit it. That said, I wouldnt be ready to pronounce it broken at all, but something to consider for sure. Nice topic faint!
  7. Doughboy

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    I chose other.

    It is not so much that entry hazards are broken, its that the options to deal with them are very limited. Let's face it, if Magic Bounce and Rapid Spin were actually on a good Pokemon, i.e. a Pokemon that was good outside of actually having Rapid Spin the metagame would be completely different. IIRC, I didn't see many Excadrill era Spike-stacking teams.

    However, entry hazards aren't a bad thing, they are quite healthy for the metagame actually. They provide a pathway for defensive teams to damage offensive teams without giving them an oppurtunity to set up. If hazards didn't exist, I would wager that offense would be king in the metagame and there would not be a single drop of a defensive team. On the other hand, offensive teams enjoy the KO's the hazards can help them achieve, ultimately hazards impede their momentum more than anything else. That one turn needed to Rapid Spin really stops their flow, as well as that missed opportunity to set up because their already frail sweeper needs as much health as they can get.

    I learned this too late, but you don't necessarily need Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce to counteract hazards. You can be anti-hazard right into the construction of the team. Take this old BW1 team I made for example:

    team (open)
    Tyranitar (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower

    Scizor (F) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch
    - Roost
    - Swords Dance

    Rotom-W @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 112 HP / 252 SAtk / 144 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Pain Split

    Landorus (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Earthquake
    - Smack Down
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - U-turn

    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Stealth Rock

    Reuniclus (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Recover


    If you look closely, 2 of the Pokemon are effected by Spikes: Tyranitar and Scizor. One of them, Scizor, has Roost to potentially stave off hazard damage. Rotom-W has a healing move+Levitate to only be marginally affected by SR and it could prevent a large amount of Pokemon setting up hazards with Hydro Pump, Volt Switch, and HP Fire (Ferrothorn, Heatran, Skarmory, and Tyranitar can not set up hazards). Landorus is a little more susceptible without a recovery move, but only 2 turns of Lefties will be needed to counteract SR. Of course it can prevent Skarmory from laying down with Smack Down. Bronzong is basically immune to hazards since it resists SR and Reuniclus is outright immune to them.

    My point is that there are a lot of minute things in teambuilding that can be done to counteract certain strategies or dilemmas. It doesn't have to be such a "direct" counter-action like Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce. Hazards bothering you? Include Pokemon that are otherwise unaffected by hazards, such as Bronzong or Rotom-W with Pain Split. You can also have moves that can heavily damage or KO hazards setters on the majority of your Pokemon such as putting Hidden Power Fire Amoonguss or putting Superpower/Fire Blast on your Tyranitar. Perhaps you could include 2 Pokemon on your team with Taunt that could heavily disrupt hazard setters such as Gliscor/Skarmory and Jellicent. This concept doesn't just apply to hazards, but stuff like phazing and hax. For example, are you sick of hax? Perhaps you should move away from stacking your team with Focus Blast + Hydro Pump + Stone Edge users and design a team that doesn't use moves that miss. Set up sweepers? Instead of a phazer or Scarfer, why not create a team that applies offensive pressure not to give set up opportunities or one that spread paralysis? Ultimately, you have to see that there are multiple ways to stop something and some of them are without having something that "directly" counteracts a threat. I do not know if I am phrasing it well, but instead of just incorporating a counteraction into a team (say Magic Bounce or Rapid Spine in this instance) you also have the option to "build it into" the team (say having moves that hit hazard setters hard everywhere on your team and having many Pokemon unaffected by hazards). In my eyes this is what separates out the decent teambuilders from the good ones.
  8. Melee Mewtwo

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    Switching is one of the most powerful and important moves any team can make in Pokemon. It changes the flow of the game and basically lets you turn the tables at any moment of your choosing. Hazards put a price on this heavy advantage and involves significantly more risk for the large reward. Without them present, Pokemon games would focus on punishing switches with powerful attacks in the hope that you out-damage the opponent. (at least for the mons that matter) This would completely invalidate defensive play as not only would it rob them of their major means of damage but a forced switch would be utterly valueless. These hazards also keep in line abilities like Wonder Guard (okay Shedy still wouldn't be great but it would definitely have a realistic niche) and Sturdy as well as the Focus Sash item. So from a purely fundamental viewpoint, hazards are not only not broken but also necessary and beneficial to a balanced and desirable metagame.

    As for the hazards themselves, I feel this is arguably the area where GF really excelled at designing. Spikes are a stackable and consistent passive damage that adds in a reasonable amount of chip damage in response to the amount of free turns given to the Spike setter. The advantages they gave are completely dependent upon the relative skill of both players. They reward a player for creating free turns and punishes the other player for allowing it.The fact that Levitate/flying types are specifically immune to them gives options to the player in the teambuilding stage as well as in the actual battle when it comes to limiting their effects.

    Toxic Spikes is a less consistent hazard than Spikes and it introduces a strange effect when in play. They don't actually punish switching as much as they punish remaining in play. Depending on the side they are on they encourage or discourage a player into adopting a defensive playstyle. They place a time limit on the team members infected by them and forces them to play more aggressively. However, it's sort of tricky in that it can backfire on Pokemon with recovery moves. It acknowledges the possibility of defensive play in a way that encourages it while discouraging it. As a counter measure to the potentially overwhelming effect it could have on a team, GF wisely decided that it should fail in the same way that Spikes along with adding steel types as immune to them and grounded poison types as a way to completely negate them. This hazard is better fought in teambuilding than in actual play since the effects don't disappear after a Rapid Spin, it just stops their spread.

    Stealth Rock is the most controversial of the hazards and the most reliable. It's reliable in the fact that it affects every Pokemon lacking Magic Guard in at least some way or another making them a staple on any team type. However, it is controversial in that it discriminates against certain types making them less viable. (although, it's worth noting that discrimination is what separates Pokemon from games like Chess, Tic-Tac-Toe, or Checkers) This makes the hazard the most metagame reliant in regards to the effects it may have as the types it inconveniences may not necessarily be the best thus further encouraging those that are already superior. Honestly, I feel GF has (accidentally?) kept this in mind when designing as the metagame's (would be) most intimidating threats are usually the ones the most crippled by them. However it is unlikely that things could ever reach an unbearable point as there are far too many total Pokemon that even weakening some isn't going to prevent a reasonably large group of viable Pokemon existing with which to build a good metagame around. (In other words, OU Ubers)

    Sufficient countermeasures are provided to deal with hazards although some of them are more or less successful depending on the metagame (Rapid Spin in Ubers vs Rapid Spin in OU) and the Pokemon laying the hazards. (GF was smart in keeping the stackable hazards to a select few) I don't think that in practice hazards aren't in any way deserving of a nerf or buff, they adequately and fairly fulfill the role they should.
  9. Cosmic Fury

    Cosmic Fury

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    This is actually a pretty good topic to bring up, as entry hazards are omnipresent within the meta.

    I voted other because the line between "broken" and "not broken" is very difficult to tell at times, and I believe that this is easily one of them. I'm only going to talk about the hazards themselves, and ways to counter them, and not so much the Pokémon, as I am sadly not as experienced as others in countering the darn things.

    First off, Spikes and Toxic Spikes. I believe that they do give a lot of balance to the metagame, and they do help counter threats which would otherwise be a pain. Countering these is hardly worth it though, as the only move Game Freak saw fit to grace us with has nearly zero power and is easily phazed by the many ghost types running around. The other move, Defog, actually clears hazards from the OTHER side of the field, and that's simply something that nobody likes to have happening.

    So, in the end, it comes down most of the time to sacrificing whatever Pokémon is using Rapid Spin (and good ones are incredibly rare enough), or letting your team get hit with Spikes every time you switch in. Sure, this can be fixed at first by having an Air Balloon, but those don't last forever, unless that Pokémon is a brilliant sweeper and doesn't really get hit.

    If there was a way to absorb, disperse, or otherwise mitigate their effects (as with Toxic Spikes), I believe that this would be extremely healthy to the meta, as there would be a good play style revolving around laying these hazards down and countering them.


    As with Stealth Rock, there is simply no way to get rid of it other than with Rapid Spin, and it only takes a single turn to set up. There is no way to disperse or absorb it otherwise, and unless the user resists the thing, they continually take unhealthy amounts of damage every time.

    The issue I have with Stealth Rock isn't the damage it deals. 12.5% isn't all that bad in the end, after all. It's the massive discrimination it has towards certain types. As was mentioned earlier, entire team styles and weathers become simply useless because it only takes just one turn to potentially tear your team into pieces.

    As was also mentioned, it completely tears up Pokémon that would otherwise make the meta far more healthy, such as Moltres, Articuno, and numerous ice, fire, and flying types out there.

    Perhaps if the move did not discriminate towards typing and instead took a universal amount of damage all around, the move would be able to very much balance out the metagame.

    As was mentioned earlier, countering this move is even worse than countering spikes. You have the same amount of choices, but less turns in which you get to take advantage of in which to get rid of this extremely threatening thing on your end of the field, which in most cases does even more damage than spikes do, especially if you're running a sun or hail team.

    That's why we rarely see any of either, and so the metagame becomes more favored to rain and sand almost by default -- because of this hazard's type discrimination, there is a lot of imbalance. If the move's typing discrimination were removed, I think we would see a far more balanced meta in which good Pokémon finally get the chance they deserve to shine.
  10. Curtains

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    Well gyarados and abomasnow are common enough to prepare for them in OU regardless of SR or not. So I wouldn't call those pokemon unusable at all. If you can get in a gyarados once that could be the end of the game. Facing a ~81% gyarados in the rain with no electric or rock moves is a hard task. For a pokemon with as much bulk and offensive power SR is necessary to have other pokemon have a chance of killing it. Also I disagree with the idea that lower tiered fire, bug and ice types are useless with SR. Let me correct you... They are useless. Not because of SR though.....Those pokemon like torkoal, scolipede, dewgong and magmar simply don't have the stats and speed to compete with legendary pokemon in OU. If SR were actually keeping pokemon out of OU then volcarona would certainly not be OU. Actually SR is probably one of the only factors keeping volc from being a top 5 OU pokemon. If a pokemon is good enough... Players will find a way to keep its weaknesses off the field. Some pokemon that are weak just happen to be weak to SR.
  11. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    I like this topic. It's something that's never really talked about constructively.

    Entry hazards have been commonly used on almost every team since their inception, and, like Kidogo said, we adapt the entire metagame around them because they're so critical. Unlike certain pokemon or pokemon+ability that end up being banned, which are often overtly unreasonable to deal with, forcing you to run very specific things to check them (such as Speed Boost Blaziken), hazards are more subtle in how they restrict team building. There are very few viable rapid spin users in OU, so if you need a way to get rid of hazards, the options you have are already limited. That isn't even taking into consideration how well any of them will fit on any particular team. Starmie is generally able to fit on most team archetypes, but even it doesn't want to be on a team that already has one or more pursuit weak pokemon.

    @ThePillsburyDoughBoy, I disagree that offense would be any more dominant than it already is. Defensive teams are still able to deal damage outside of hazards, since toxic would be a lot more common if there were no hazards, and most defensive pokemon usually carry something to prevent them from being taunt bait. Also take into consideration that defensive teams have to deal with hazards as well. Jellicent teams are often a nightmare for teams that heavily rely on a rapid spinner because most of them lose to it.

    I'm not ready to say that I think entry hazards are broken, but I wouldn't mind them (or stealth rock, at least) getting a suspect test, if for no other reason than to see what a metagame without them would be like.
  12. Melee Mewtwo

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    Don't forget the numerous ways to play around status (Magic Guard, Steel types, Poison Heal, ChestoRest, etc. etc.) to the point that a Stall team with it's mediocre damage output would never be able to keep up once the main function behind them (wear the other team down with forced switches) is completely removed.
  13. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    Magic Guard- Reuniclus is really the only notable example in this discussion, and defensive teams have traditionally always struggled with it anyway. Alakazam is much more manageable to deal with than Reuniclus since it has paper thin defenses. Hazards or no hazards is irrelevant.

    Steel Types- Skarmory is still susceptible to taunt and w-o-w and wouldn't be useful against toxic immune pokemon. The threat of it spike stacking would no longer be relevant. Ferrothorn is in a similar vein. Heatran will still lose to bulky waters like Politoed or Vaporeon, who would likely have a larger niche since status spreaders would be more prevalent. Forretress is non-existent. I concede that Scizor and (depending on the set) Jirachi could be more difficult to deal with.

    Poison Heal- Gliscor will still mostly lose against bulky waters (Clerics would be more usable since having to have a slot for setting/removing hazards wouldn't be necessary. Dealing with Poison Heal Breloom, as rare as it is, would be no different for most teams.

    Chesto-Rest- May or may not become more popular if there were no entry hazards, but this is vague and needs more specific examples.
  14. Doughboy

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    Lady Alex how about the big one every Pokemon can use: Substitute. Most offensive Pokemon would be reasonably fast enough to set up a substitute before the opponent could taunt. Having substitute would not be unreasonable since in an offensive meta it gives Pokemon a free turn to attack or set up with impunity. A decently fast and bulky Pokemkn with Substitute would be a nightmare for a stall team (think Kyube, Dragonite, Latias, and Terrakion)

    Substitute / Taunt Gyarados would be even more of a nightmare :0
  15. HUARGH

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    I don't know why stealth rock has to do more damage to types weak to rock. I don't necessarily think it is overpowering but it rather limits your pokemons... not that I am planning on using Delibird anything soon, but basically everything with a x4 weak to rock is automatically unplayable, and a x2 weak to rock is already meh. Stealth rock has great distribution, I'd like to see it take 1/8th from all pokemon instead of how it is now.
  16. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    @ThePillsburyDoughBoy, Using the examples you gave (I acknowledge that of course this is neither a comprehensive threat list nor a comprehensive list of checks, but I'm just trying to show that managing offensive threats without the presence of hazards isn't unreasonable, in most cases):

    KyuB- Probably the most difficult example. Jirachi can still check it relatively well, and if it fails, KyuB should be weakened enough for anything faster than it to revenge it.

    Dragonite- Toxic Skarmory will still beat it. Quagsire will beat it.

    Latias- Chansey can take out subs and attempt to toxic it as it recovers. Specially defensive quagsire will also beat it if you are using Ice beam.

    Terrakion- Physically defensive Tentacruel can take a +2 stone edge and finish it off at 75% health most of the time in the rain. Physically defensive Quagsire is not 2hko'd by +0 close combat. Landorus-T still beats it.

    Gyarados- t-bolt Rotom-W beats it. Ferrothorn (though may require Defense EVs), will beat it.

    Those are just defensive checks to the threats you listed. It's not unreasonable for defensive teams to carry an offensive pokemon to tie up loose ends.
  17. Melee Mewtwo

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    The thing you are completely forgetting is that beating these mons one on one gain you nothing. Most you actually can't kill without intense stalling which, in the mean time, the other player can switch mons for free and subject your team to another powerful attack. Even in an unfavorable match-up where the attacker is threatened with an immediate death, there is nothing stopping it from switching out to a more favorable Pokemon. The best you can do is try to fling out Toxic/WoW but, again, there's so many ways to stop those status moves that you are going to just get forced out and eat another attack. Stuff like Lando-T could work but the damage output those sort of things will be dealing will pale in comparison to the likes of LO Terrakion, etc, etc. Stall will simply be outdamaged and stalling for nothing besides a belated death.
  18. Lady Alex

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    You're devaluing how crippling WoW, and, to a lesser extent, toxic are. It's easy to say "there are so many ways to stop those status moves," but it's vague and doesn't support your point well. "the other player can switch mons for free" is, for the most part, a terrible exaggeration. Switching in against a Jellicent using WoW is not "switching in for free"
  19. yee

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    I'm glad to see this is a thread because it's an excellent conversation. I never put too much thought into it because I "grew up" in DPP and just became accustomed to involving Rocks, but I'm not sure I like the move too much.

    I don't think it's bad that something helps offense more than defense, but it does annoy me that every single team has a 99% required and best possible move from the get go. SR is just that good and with offensive SR leads prepped for the very small pool of spinners, offense gets a quick jump. I realize that this could just be more of a # of uncompromising spinners problem, but I find it much easier in DPP / BW than ADV to just play out a game with the knowledge that the one team will die whether or not one had a specific set of plans. This is due to more than just the addition of SR of course, but I would say SR is a huge factor of the more effortless crumble of teams.

    I do like that there is a hazard for Flying and Levitating mons, but I think it is excessive. The fact that one incredibly easy to set up move (again I acknowledge the lack of spinners problem) can take 50% or even just 25% away from a mon immediately lowers the potential of a good "gimmick bin". Moltres / Charizard type things could be a lot better as the obvious example. I don't mind this part as much because it's only the 50% weak mons that really actually can go from viable to not just because of rocks, and cool mons like Dragons can stay OU. The only thing I actually mind more than a little is that teams can crumble a lot more easily.
  20. Joeyboy

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    But you have to remember that Flying-types also have the advantage of avoiding all other hazards. Thats the reason why they take more from Stealth Rock, to balance them out. Its just unfortunate that theres more emphasis on SR as its much easier, and takes fewer turns, to set up.
  21. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    okay i voted the third option not cause i necessarily think rocks are "broken" and we can't really do anything about them anyways (besides flat out ban which kinda sucks) but because i think they're way too common and have become basically an integral part of our metagame. i mean right now we're all debating about whether or not drizzle is broken, well drizzle's on 30% of teams at best, stealth rock is on probably 95% or more competitive teams. in my experience i have never made a bw team without rocks, they're just that good. i think rocks are really obnoxious to deal with, whenever they're up as a player i get more nervous and switching is physically painful just cause i don't like seeing my landorus go from "not ohkod by +2 luke espeed" range to "easily ohkod" range...i mean there's a billion examples but the point is rocks super nerfs any sort of defensive team and gives offense a huge edge. yes i understand rocks help keep things like thundurus-t, tornadus, and volcarona in check but they also prevent stuff like zapdos from being the defensive powerhouses they once were. and the fact that rocks are on almost every single team in bw ou means to me that they've got to be some sort of godsend that every player must use or lose. they are incredibly efficient at turning 3hkos into 2hkos and 2hkos into ohkos and the overall wear and tear that pokemon take from switching in on rocks over and over again can be backbreaking for many teams. i've been playing a lot of adv recently and i think the metagame was way more balanced then, sure there were less pokemon but there also wasn't any rocks to hold like 50 pokemon back from being a success and stall teams actually stood a chance cause you could switch your skarmory or zapdos or claydol in without taking any residual damage, which was also nice. i dunno maybe it's just the way things are going but i see a significant difference in the metagame with rocks added into the mix.

    for the unscrupulous tiering director tournament, which was a tour where each round certain things were banned, i remember one round stealth rock was banned but spikes and tspikes weren't, so i ran a stall team and people thought i was nuts ("what's stall without rocks?" etc.) but it worked and i won even against the hyper offense my opponent brought...i don't think this anecdote means much to most people but to me it indicates that without rocks, defense is a lot better off than offense.

    i guess what i'm saying is what yee says in his last paragraph, rocks are excessive. if they only did 12.5% like 1 layer of spikes does upon entry, but to everything, i think i would be ok with that, but since it's a rock-type move and they deal damage based n that i think it kinda kills the viability of a ton of stuff. as i mentioned earlier, zapdos is crippled by them defensively, but also lots of offensive mons like charizard and moltres are basically unviable because of rocks. it even took away the one of two benefits of using a flying-type in gsc/adv, that they don't take anything from spikes so they can switch in freely even if there's hazards down. this hazard really limits the effectiveness of a lot of pokemon and makes defensive teams fall apart with just a little hammering. kinda lame i think

    edit: oh yeah and stupid move tutor now lets goddamn everything get rocks
  22. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,010
    I would like to say that hazards are neither broken or unbroken, now I'll state why I believe so. Stealth rocks being the most crucial and stabilizing of the three checks abilities like Sturdy, Multi scale, Regenerator also breaks sashes that would allow many things a free set up turn with out any regulation.

    Stealth rocks, spikes, and toxic spikes are the consequence players are forced to handle for using great pokemon like Dragonite, Volcarona a player using Dragonite in meta without SR will simply just go straight for a DD at any point of a game without a single train of thought as it wouldn't take a lot of thought process to simply start boosting. Stealth rocks give the meta that competitive and creative edge, it makes it strategically stressful(spin slot needed, keeping field clean, keeping spinner alive.) for othwerwise mindless game plans. Like with Deo-D teams it didn't take much to pair it up with five sweepers and call it a game and by creative I mean Volcarona teams are forced to find a way to work around stealth rocks and not just simply allowed to through such an offensively amazing pokemon in with no cost. Rip and reward.
  23. Ehrmantraut

    Ehrmantraut

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    54
    Stealth Rocks don't just weaken individual pokemon, they make complete types less viable which goes against creativity. It checks certain pokemon like Volcarona who would have a decent chance at ubers without rocks, if not high OU but there has to be a better way to balance the metagame than by nerfing individual types.

    not to mention how dumb it is that dozens of pokemon can put down rocks but only a handful can spin them away.
  24. Colress

    Colress

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    The complete ubiquity of Stealth Rock does not indicate that Stealth Rock is too powerful. Rather, Stealth Rock is present on every team simply because it is an extremely low maintenance support move with wide distribution - it only requires a single moveslot and a single turn, and there is a Stealth Rock user for every team that does not require sacrificing synergy. For example, in Pokemon Online UU, Roserade and Froslass are both banned - they are the premier Spikes users of UU. Without them, the only remaining UU Pokemon with access to Spikes is Qwilfish. Qwilfish can not be fit onto every team without breaking synergy in the process. In comparison, every UU team can fit a Stealth Rock user without breaking synergy, because there is such a wide variety of users that nearly every niche is covered. That being the case, I do not believe that Stealth Rock is too powerful - rather, it is commonplace for a reason other than sheer power level.

    In regards to Stealth Rock weakening many Pokemon, it also enables other Pokemon to be more useful. Some Pokemon are always going to fall short despite having high potential because of the state of the metagame - this can not be changed. By removing Stealth Rock or all entry hazards, you simply cause a shift in what is viable and what is not - for every Pokemon that becomes viable without entry hazards, another one will cease being viable, either directly due to losing a key element to its success or indirectly due to metagame shifts.

    It would be interesting to see an other metagame with entry hazards removed. It would certainly be different, but it is impossible to say that it would promote a better competitive battling environment without extensive testing - it is only a theory, at best. As such, I do not support the removal of entry hazards in standard metagames.
  25. Darknut07

    Darknut07

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    64
    Personally, I'd rather deal with SR than Focus Sash. In a metagame without any entry hazards, I'd assume there would be at least one sash user on every team and for offensive teams you would have to guess which, and how many of their pokemon have a sash.

    From a competitive standpoint, I think while SR makes some pokemon less viable, it keeps a lot of powerful pokemon in check. Obviously Volcarona and Dragonite come to mind as pokemon that would have a lot easier time without SR. It makes sense to me that those who want to keep multiscale intact have to either spin or roost when they come in. Making them spend that extra turn recovering or spinning away, for me, contributes to those 2 remaining balanced.

    Also switching should be something that has consequences. Obviously there is the threat of an attack, but for players who want to maintain a defensive advantage I feel SR is advantageous for them. It allows the player to keep momentum even when switching and planning defensively.

    Like Colress mentioned, the ubiquity is a product of its large distribution and low cost, rather than being a sign of its brokenness. Probably less than 20 pokemon learn spikes, while SR has to be in the 100s which is the main reason for SR being so common (and I guess the lack of immunities),
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