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Espeon (Analysis) [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by MatchMaster, May 5, 2013.

  1. tehy

    tehy

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    I'd also like to add that he said it could hurt stall teams. This is not because of its power, but because it can set up in many common stall pokemon's faces. Espeon can't really do that without Morning Sun, which is prone to getting stalled out and weather dependent, or Wish+protect, which leaves you with one attacking move. Once Xatu is at +6, it can definitely hurt things.

    Edit: Uh, this is... how shall I say this... against Stall teams. Like I said. So those are often not carrying massive offensive powerhouses.

    Latias and Arceus can and often do get heavy boosts against stall teams, and would easily get more if immune to status without having to sub/refresh, as well as being totally immune to roar/whirlwind.

    I've even seen them do it against more offensive teams, where the only reason they didn't go all the way is a lack of a need to, not the inability to.
  2. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Xatu isn't getting at +6 in ubers, period.
    Not even dedicated and actually bulky CM users like Latias and Arceus can do that in a tier where STAB 120+ BP moves coming from 150+ attacking stats run rampant.
  3. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    @Shrang: He cares about Espeon's higher offensive presence in conjunction with teammates capable of KOing hazard setters to stop hazards. While Xatu can stop some setters repeatedly, that is hardly Espeon's job, as sets out to delay and weaken opposing hazard setters enough to at the point where they are easily taken out by its teammates attacks. Dealing good damage to Groudon via Grass Knot is an example of this, and while Xatu could easily Roost-loop support Groudon, the opposing player can simply switch to a threatening Pokémon that can destroy Xatu while you try to stall it. Espeon cannot be set up on in the same sense since it has a strong Psyshock capable of breaking Ho-oh's substitute as well as Yawn. Espeon's higher offensive presence can help in other scenarios too, weakening or killing of Kyogre is vital for sun teams where Espeon should be used, while Xatu is a great switch in for Kyogre, Espeon can damage it heavily.

    If you are using a heavily offensive sun team, Espeon is viable. Xatu is great on balanced sun. I don't think neither outclasses each other tbh.
  4. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Is maxed speed truly necessary on Espeon?
    Almost everything in the 95-110 range is usually scarfed (Genesect, Palkia, Terrakion), outright destroy Espeon (Kyurem-B/W and Rayquaza) or Espeon can't even scratch them (Lat@s).

    The only exceptions are Lugia, who can't really do anything to Espeon other than Dragon Tail, and opposing Espeon (without Shadow Ball).

    I think Espeon only needs just enough speed to outrun unscarfed base 90 ubers, so you can use the remaining EVs for extra bulk or special attack.
  5. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Max speed is there because even with defensive investment, Espeon won't be surviving any notable moves. Max speed at least lets it outpace everything up to non-scarfed base 109s (factoring in the HP Fire imperfect iv)
  6. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Sorry for double posting, but in case anyone didn't notice, this is ready for the QC check.
  7. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Groudon is by far the better example as a Pokemon to beat both Excadrill and Tyranitar. Do mention Terrakion though.

    AC Moonlight + Groudon, Shadow Ball.

    Emphasize competition from Xatu; do mention that it Espeon is useful on sun offense, rather than balanced sun like Xatu.

    Magic Bounce does not bounce back Trick. Speaking of Trick, OO Choice set.

    Stress how you need to play your A+++++++ game when using Espeon; when misprediction or overprediction can determine games in a swift.

    Make sure you implement /all/ of shrang's suggestions.

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  8. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I did remember Theorymon wanting to have a look at a Dual Screens set. Since Espeon is dying quickly most of the time, he may as well try to do something productive, and Espeon is relatively fast. I'll stamp this now, but I'll also wait for Theorymon's input for the dual screen set, and if he does think it's worth it, then follow whatever instructions he puts in.

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  9. trickroom

    trickroom
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    [​IMG]
    QC APPROVED 3/3

    No over-hyping Espeon. Add in what shrang and Furai said.
  10. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    K, this is ready for the GP check. A dual screen set does sound appealing though, as Espeon is faster than Xatu, who is also immune to Taunt. We might wanna wait until Theorymon puts his input about it.
  11. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Don't GP this yet as another QC needs to go over it. I suppose we're waiting for Theorymon?
  12. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    Sorry, had some serious bullshit in real life to deal with. Anyways, Heres the set I was using

    [SET]
    name: Focus Sash Attacker
    move 1: Light Screen
    move 2: Reflect
    move 3: Shadow Ball
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Magic Bounce
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    I played this fairly similar to the regular set except it traded less coverage for dual screens. I used Focus Sash because Espeon doesn't live long anyways, but I want to hear what trickroom says, since he used this set too! I never tried Light Clay btw, so other QCers, please weigh in on that!

    You should also mention an ev spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe. You get less KOs (most notably, you no longer have a chance of OHKOing Ferrothorn after Stealth Rock), but it can help Espeon survive SOME stuff better.

    Finally, I think Shadow Ball should be more than AC, I think it should be the first slot, with Psyshock being slashed in with Yawn and Shadow Ball. Hitting Deoxys-S as hard as possible is just too important imo!
  13. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    why wouldn't i use xatu over that, which can roost, has better resistances, and slightly better bulk? being that fast means nothing when you hit like a girl. outclassed imo; even deo-s does this better.
  14. trickroom

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    I tried Dual Screens but it didn't really performed well. The weird thing is it plays almost the same as the one in the analysis, both hold Focus Sash, and just hit things when you have to. Espeon's main niche remains the same which is stop entry hazards for a few turns. The good thing about Dual Screen is you can setup on things like Dialga if you predict right, tank the Draco Meteor and setup Reflect as well before you die.

    Not sure if it deserves a separate set because it is almost the same, but you focus on setting up screens instead of hitting the opponent back lol. Agree with Theorymon, Shadow Ball should get a slash. You need it to beat Deoxys-S one-on-one, some of them carry Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse, if that is the case you still lose but you beat others. Smacking the Ghost-types harder is always great since they can easily come in otherwise.
  15. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Added in the slashes and changed the comments accordingly.
  16. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Psyshock >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shadow Ball


    put a space before and after the slash
  17. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    Amcheck :)
    ADD
    REMOVE

    Diff Amcheck (open)
    [Overview]
    (line)
    <p>At first, Espeon might seem completely out of place in the Ubers metagame. SansAside from Special Attack and Speed, its stats are pitiful. B, as base 65/60/95 defenses make itEspeon very vulnerable to the powerful attacks thrown around in the tier, especially priority. It also has quite a barren movepool, making it one-dimensional and easy to play around. Being Pursuit bait is another undesirable quality that it has, making it aEspeon easy pickings for Tyranitar and Scizor. To top it off, its only viable form of recovery, Morning Sun, is near-useless in the Rrain-infested metagame. So what makeHowever, its Espeon worth using in Ubers? Its semi-unique ability, Magic Bounce's semi-unique ability, Magic Bounce, that makes it worth using in Ubers.</p>

    <p>Its coveted ability allows it to deflect all forms of entry hazards, ensuring dangerous threats such as Ho-Oh and Kyurem-W don't go down prematurely. Magic Bounce also grants it an immunity to Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Roar, and Whilwind, giving stall team headaches, as they usually rely on these moves to stall out their opponents. Espeon also happens to be capable of stopping Forretress and Skarmory, two common hazard-setters, in their tracks and KO them.(space)These are the qualities are wthat set Espeon apart from its main competitor, Xatu, who also sports Magic Bounce, but boasts completely-reliable recovery and an immunity to Earthquake. Espeon cannot be used lightly though; it needs a good deal of team support to get its job done. One slight misprediction could result in a dead Espeon's demise, before it even gets a chance to do anything.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Focus Sash Attacker
    move 1:Shadow Ball(space)/(space)Psyshock
    move 2: Yawn(space)/(space)Psyshock
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Magic Bounce
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    (line)
    <p>BeingAs Espeon is fast, frail, and fairly powerful, a fFocus sSash set immediately comes to mind for Espeonit. Being able to stop most defensive hazard setters, and even some offensive ones, this set can make way for powerful teammates that are troubled by them. Shadow Ball is preferred in the first slot to hit Deoxys-S hard. If that isn't a problem, Psyshock is viable, as(space)it is Espeon's most powerful move, OHKOing Tentacruel and Terrakion after a layer of Spikes, and 2HKOing Chansey and Blissey after Stealth Rock damage. Yawn stops Espeon from being setup bait for sweepers, such as Arceus and Mewtwo. Psyshock again, is an option if using Shadow Ball in the first slot if these latter two threats aren't a problem for your teammates, and for the best ovtterall coverage. Grass Knot is important, as it is Espeon's best move against Kyogre, Groudon, and Tyranitar, 2HKOing all of them after Stealth Rock. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire hits Skarmory and Forretress, two common hazard setters, for super- effective damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    (line)
    <p>It should be noted that due to frailty, it will usually only block hazards twice; once when at full health, and once at 1 HP. However, Tyranitar will makeonly let Espeon block them only once, as it will Pursuit Espeon it asf it switches, puttleaving it down at 1 HP, while on the next turn it can set up Stealth Rock. Excadrill sets up Stealth Rock with impunity due to Mold Breaker ignoring Magic Bounce, meaning that Espeon cannot block hazards from it at all. Groudon, and to a lesser extent, Terrakion, can threaten these two hazard setters with STAB Earthquake or Close Combat, making them good teammates for Espeon. In addition, if Groudon is used, Morning Sun becomes an option, as the sun that Groudon brings makelets Morning Sun restore 1/3 of Espeon's HP.</p>

    <p>There are two other options that Espeon can make use of. The first is Baton Pass, which can be used to scout for counters and escape Pursuit, preserving its fFocus sSash and possibly allowing it to continue blocking hazards more timeslater on in the match. The second viable option is Hidden Power Fighting, which is its best option against Tyranitar and Dialga; however, it will still fail to OHKO butoth and the latterformer already takes a good amount of damage from Grass Knot, and it fails to OHKO either of them.</p>

    [OtherTHER OptionsPTIONS]
    (line)
    <p>A Dual Screens set has merits, as itEspeon is not stopped by Taunt and noeither is it setup fodder for hazard setters, but Deoxys-S doepulls this kind of set better thanks to betthigher sSpeed, and makes up for its vulnerability to Taunt with access to its own access to iTaunt. A set with Trick and a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs can allow it to outpace or hit opposing Pokemon hard, while being able to cripple a wall, but again, Deoxys-S outclasses it in this role.</p>

    [ChecksHECKS andAND CountersOUNTERS]
    (line)

    <p>Hard-hitting priority users, such as Arecus, Giratina-O, and Scizor will quickly dispatch of Espeon due to its frailty., although Scizor withll have to watch out for switching into Hidden Power Fire though. Speaking of Scizor, it can also Pursuit Espeon if it decides to switch out. Tyranitar does this job even better, as it is at best 2HKO'ed by Hidden Power Fighting or Grass Knot after Stealth Rock. Ho-Oh can easily take anything bar Psyshock, and OHKO back. Like a lot of Pokemon, Espeon can be preyed upon by revenge killers. A, as almost any Choice Scarf user in the metagame can outpace and KO Espeon with the appropriate move. The most prominent orf these is Genesect, who easily OHKOes it with U-turn after Espeon's fFocus sSash has been rendered useless by some residual damage.</p>


    There were a quite a few mistakes in your writing, for example you didn't capitalize Focus Sash anywhere in the analysis except for the set name, remember all Pokemon names, moves, and abilities need to be capitalized. I also felt that punctuation was a little misused, as you placed periods where commas should have been (although I'm not the best person to be commenting on that as I seem to miss them as well). Remember, whenever you slash moves next to each other in the set, you ALWAYS put a space before and after them as so: Shadow Ball / Psyshock. When listing EVs, you need to follow this order: HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed. You should also always have a line after the [Overview] tags and such. You also wouldn't use acronyms for moves in an analysis, so you wouldn't say SR, you would instead say Stealth Rock. Some of the sentences were weirdly worded, so I changed them, although if you felt as if I was being too subjective, then please feel free to change them to match your meaning, although make sure that they make sense. "Checks and Counters" and "Other Options" are never fully capitalized, only the first letters of the words are (except for "and"). Aside from that, great job on finding a niche for poor Espeon in Ubers ^_^
  18. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Thanks. I'm new to writing these analysises, so I'm not the best at it now. Anyway, AM Check implemented
  19. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    Nice analysis & AM check! Just a few nitpicks:

    It should be 65 / 60 / 95. There are spaces before and after the slash.

    Whirlwind, I'm assuming.

    Entry hazard, not hazard alone.

    ??? Is there someone else that needs to be at the end to finish the sentence? And, I'm not sure if there should be a comma after demise. It doesn't sound right. Correct me if I'm wrong, however.

    Once again, entry hazard(s), not hazard(s) alone. I'm not going to pick out every hazard in there, so it's your job to find them and add entry to them.

    There should be a space between Other Options and the paragraph.

    Speed, not speed.

    You mean Arceus?

    That's all I see in here, maybe a few sentence structure issues, but I gtg, so I'll let someone else handle it.
  20. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Fixed all of those. Thanks for the check.
  21. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    why isn't this under copyediting tag and doesn't have gp 0/2 in the title?
  22. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Okay, this needs more work, IMO.

    The reasons you listed there are not really what sets Espeon apart from Xatu. You had two reasons, which are 1) Magic Bounce and 2) beating Forretress and Skarmory, which happens to be two things Xatu also has. Xatu defeats the two Pokemon listed with much better efficiency too, might I add. You've just stated something that we know already. Why is Espeon better than Xatu? The answer is pretty much offensive presence - This allows you to take on offensive SR leads more easily, as you can actually kill Groudon with Grass Knot, or severely weaken Dialga to KO range for your sun offense team. You can kill Terrakion with Psyshock instead of getting killed by Stone Edge first. THIS is what you really need to stress, not just stating what Magic Bounce does. People know that already.

    This is just wrong. I'll give you Tentacruel and Terrakion, but you're never 2HKOing Chansey, ever. You do 29.60% - 35.05% to 4 HP / 252 SpD Calm Eviolite Chansey. You have about a 30% chance to 2HKO Blissey.

    In general, this analysis is too short for something that needs a lot of justification in why you would use this at all. You didn't go into why I'd use this thing over Xatu, and you didn't really address that Espeon has trouble beating a lot of dedicated hazard leads. Deoxys-S is a perfect example. You get 2HKOed by sun boosted Fire Punch, courtesy of your own sun. You didn't really go into sun offense much apart from briefly mentioning Ho-oh and Kyurem-W. You need to talk about what kind of teams Espeon fits best in (offensive sun is pretty much the only one), and how to actually use it. I want to see quite a bit of detail. You need to highlight how to actually use it, not just highlight the moves and Magic Bounce, a couple of teammates and call it a day. More importantly, you need to stress its downsides more. There are so many things wrong with Espeon in which you didn't mention. Please put more into this analysis.
  23. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    Added the stuff you said to in the overview and AC. I think the overview now pretty much mentions all the downsides of Espeon.
  24. GCSChris

    GCSChris

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    Nice job MatchMaster. Amcheck time!

    Additions
    Deletions
    Comments

    amcheck (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>At first, Espeon might seem completely out of place in the Ubers metagame. Aside from Special Attack and Speed, its stats are pitiful, as base 65 / 60 / 95 defenses make Espeon very vulnerable to the powerful attacks thrown around in the tier, especially priority ones. It also has a barren movepool, making it one-dimensional and easy to play around. Being Pursuit bait is another undesirable quality, making Espeon easy pickings for Tyranitar and Scizor. To top it off, its only viable form of recovery, Morning Sun, is near-useless in the rain-infested metagame. However, it's Espeon's semi-unique ability, Magic Bounce, that makes it worth using in Ubers.</p>

    <p>Its coveted ability allows it to deflect all forms of entry hazards, ensuring dangerous threats on sun teams such as Ho-Oh and Kyurem-W don't go down prematurely. Magic Bounce also grants it an immunity to Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Roar, and Whirlwind, giving stall team headaches, as they usually rely on these moves to stall out their opponents. Espeon also happens to be capable of stopping Forretress and Skarmory, two common hazard-setters, in their tracks and KO them. When thinking of a team supporter that can perform these roles, Xatu may come to mind first due to its immunity to Earthquake, completely reliable recovery, and slightly higher physical defense. However, Espeon sports a larger offensive presence, preventing to it from becoming setup bait. Espeon cannot be used lightly though; it needs a good deal of team support to get its job done. One slight misprediction could result in Espeon's demise, before it even gets a chance to do anything.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Focus Sash Attacker
    move 1: Psyshock / Shadow Ball
    move 2: Yawn / Psyshock
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Magic Bounce
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>As Espeon is fast, frail, and fairly powerful, a Focus Sash set immediately comes to mind for it. Being able to stop most defensive hazard setters,&mdash; and even some offensive ones,&mdash; this set can make way for powerful teammates that are troubled by them. Psyshock is preferred in the first slot as it is Espeon's most powerful move, OHKOing Tentacruel and Terrakion after Stealth Rock. Shadow Ball is another viable option to hit Deoxys-S and KO heavily weakened Mewtwo, Giratina-O, and Ghost Arceus on the switch. Yawn stops Espeon from being setup bait for sweepers such as Arceus and Mewtwo. Psyshock again, is an option if using Shadow Ball in the first slot if the latter last two threats aren't a problem for your team, and for the better overall coverage. 'Former' and 'latter' can only be used when comparing two things. Grass Knot is important, as it is Espeon's best move against Kyogre, Groudon, and Tyranitar, 2HKOing all of them after Stealth Rock. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire hits Skarmory and Forretress, two common hazard setters, for super-effective damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The most obvious partner for Espeon is Groudon.; It it can easily take on Tyranitar, Scizor, and Dialga, all of whom can force Espeon out. The sun it summons also powers up the Fire-type moves of Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Kyurem-W, all of whom also appreciate the Magic Bounce support from Espeon as well, making them good teammates as well. This just sounded weird with the repetition of 'as well' Sun support also makes Morning Sun restore 2/3 of Espeon's health, making it a viable option. Another good teammate to consider is Choice Scarf Terrakion, who threatens Extreme Killer Arceus, Darkrai, and both Kyurem formes, which Groudon will struggle against. Finally, Calm Mind Ghost Arceus can stop Genesect, who easily threatens Espeon with its powerful STAB U-Turn.<p>

    <p>It should be noted that due to Espeon's frailty, it will usually only block hazards twice;: once when at full health, and once at 1 HP. However, Tyranitar will only let Espeon block them once, as it will Pursuit if it switches, leaving it at 1 HP, while on the next turn it can set up Stealth Rock. Excadrill sets up Stealth Rock with impunity due to Mold Breaker ignoring Magic Bounce, meaning that Espeon cannot block hazards from it at all. Once again, Groudon, and to a lesser extent, Terrakion, make good teammates as they can threaten these two entry hazard setters with STAB Earthquake or Close Combat.</p>

    <p>There are two other options that Espeon can make use of. The first is Baton Pass, which can be used to scout for counters and escape Pursuit, preserving its Focus Sash and possibly allowing it to continue blocking hazards later on in the match. The second viable option is Hidden Power Fighting, which is its best option against Tyranitar and Dialga; however, it will still fail to OHKO both, and the former takes a good amount of damage from Grass Knot.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A Dual Screens set has merits, as it is not stopped by Taunt and neither is it setup fodder for entry hazard setters, but Deoxys-S pulls this off better thanks to higher Speed, and makes up for its vulnerability to Taunt with access to its own Taunt. A set with Trick and a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs can allow it to outpace or hit opposing Pokemon hard, while being able to cripple a wall,&mdash; but again, Deoxys-S outclasses it in this role.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Hard-hitting priority users, such as Arceus, Giratina-O, and Scizor will quickly dispatch of Espeon due to its frailty, although Scizor with have to watch out for Hidden Power Fire. Speaking of Scizor, it can also Pursuit Espeon if it decides to switch out. Tyranitar does this job even better, as it is at best 2HKOed by Hidden Power Fighting or Grass Knot after Stealth Rock. Ho-Oh can easily take anything, bar Psyshock, and OHKO back. Like a lot of Pokemon, Espeon can be preyed upon by revenge killers, as almost any Choice Scarf user in the metagame can outpace and KO Espeon with the appropriate move. The most prominent of these is Genesect, who easily OHKOes it with U-turn after Espeon's Focus Sash has been rendered useless by some residual damage.</p>
  25. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    Nice amcheck GCSChris, however, "former" and "latter" can be used when there are multiple subjects, it's not only limited to two subjects. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

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