Other Evasion

[Alopex]

Seems Gamefreak is finally wisening up to the fact that evasion has been broken for ages. With Gen 6 we now have:

- Roar and Whirlwind are no longer subjective to accuracy (if I'm reading this right)
- Keen Eye now ignores evasion
- Weather nerfed (for Snow Cloak/Sand Veil)
- No Guard got a relevant new user in Doublade, others might follow.
- Defog removes hazards on the user's side too now
- Minimize has less PP
- Clefable is potentially more viable and has Unaware, others might follow.
- Prankster Murkrow still has Haze. Others... may follow?

With all that, it would appear that trying to "set up" evasion is just wasted turns unless you're a grass type with Ingrain and even then, most Keen Eye users are Flying type.

Either way, it doesn't seem like the gamebreaking mechanic it used to be anymore. So I'm curious if anyone thinks the Evasion Clause might actually get suspect tested instead of outright banned this gen - would be a first ever!

 

[Yamborski]

Besides the original argument that it is not a skill based strategy (use Double Team, cross fingers) it is hilariously broken on Baton Pass. Start off with a Double Teaming Blaziken / Scoliopede and BP a few speed boosts + at least one Double Team. This will almost guarantee a few free Subs which is often the start of the end for anyone on the wrong end of Baton Pass.

 

[Manaphy]

I'm completely against luck-based strategies no matter how 'dealable' it is, but it isn't really up for me to decide.

 

[Alopex]

Don't need to rely on luck to use Roar/Whirlwind... (goes through subs, bypasses accuracy now)

Those moves are rampant as is, and will only get more use now anyway. Punish their attempt to use luck by hitting them with entry hazards. Luck is only problematic if the counters are impossible to pull off reliably. People get punished hardcore for relying on luck in Crit strategies, but crits aren't banned. Seems like evade has gotten to that level now. Just punish them.

Taunt is the only thing I see being a problem with evasion now. But hey, it might be problematic enough to keep it banned. I'd be curious to test it out first, though.

 

[Antarctic Termite]

I'm completely against luck-based strategies no matter how 'dealable' it is, but it isn't really up for me to decide.

How luck-based are you talking about? Critical hit rates, accuracy, the sleep/freeze timer, secondary effects etc. etc. are all luck-based. Would you be against running a Slash variant on all my Pokemon and hoping for a critical hit every single time?

Accelgor/Ninjask/Greninja'd by Alopex, pretty much.

 

[AstralFire]

I'd never run a double team strat, but where practical, I think it is a good thing if the Smogon meta can include more of what is allowed in the actual game. Not to mention, I like the idea of Keen Eye mons actually having a use, especially in lower tiers.

Keen Eye, Roar, Whirlwind, Haze, Aerial Ace, Aura Sphere, Faint Attack (out of the Swift clones that get used), CompoundEyes, No Guard, Unaware, Hone Claws - we are not hurting for ways to have counters to Double Team.

 

[Yamborski]

Let's put it another way.

Please give me one, literally just one solid reason that adding more luck to this game benefits it.

 

[Manaphy]

How luck-based are you talking about? Critical hit rates, accuracy, the sleep/freeze timer, secondary effects etc. etc. are all luck-based. Would you be against running a Slash variant on all my Pokemon and hoping for a critical hit every single time?

Accelgor/Ninjask/Greninja'd by Alopex, pretty much.

Generally Pokemon already has quite a bit of luck in it already with Critical Hits and Secondary Effects. We can't change that because if we did we'd be messing with game mechanics and it wouldn't be Pokemon anymore (a big reason why Freeze Clause isn't seen as much nowadays), but I think we should try to minimize luck out of that. Evasion can easily be avoided with the "Just don't use it", so we're not messing with game mechanics. Secondary effects and crits give us plenty of luck-excitement already imo, but again I'm not the one deciding everything for the meta.

Please give me one, literally just one solid reason that adding more luck to this game benefits it.

Pretty much what this guy said.

 

[Alopex]

To Yam and Manaphy,

It's just about increasing diversity. When reliable, viable, doable counter-strategies exist against a certain tactic (as we have now, finally, in Gen 6), allowing that tactic means that the Pokemon fit to counter it will have newfound significance and usage. It could bring some Keen Eye mons out of obscurity, for example. It might make it less obvious what ability a Pokemon will have if its other abilities are actually useful. Stuff like that. "Just don't use it" ends up equaling "just don't bother using that Pokemon/ability".

I mean, if it's broken, it's broken, for sure. But wouldn't it be interesting to give that a proper test first? Something that's only been done in Ubers before?

 

[Manitary]

Keen Eye, Roar, Whirlwind, Haze, Aerial Ace, Aura Sphere, Faint Attack (out of the Swift clones that get used), CompoundEyes, No Guard, Unaware, Hone Claws - we are not hurting for ways to have counters to Double Team.

The only listed really usable are phazing and maybe Hone Claws, the other are powerful 60BP moves (except Aura Sphere which got nerfed and has bad distribution) and badly distributed abilities...do you really want to use Keen Eye Braviary/Fearow/Swanna/Skuntank/Drapion/Sneasel?

 

[Alopex]

The only listed really usable are phazing ...do you really want to use Keen Eye Braviary/Fearow/Swanna/Skuntank/Drapion/Sneasel?

Phazing is likely all you need, though. It's exceedingly common as it is. And considering none of the Pokemon you mentioned get used at all ever, I'd say just the fact that they're finding a niche and getting used is a massive upgrade to them and the diversity of the game.

He didn't say anything.
I will, though: after the royal mess that Gen 5's hyper-offensive metagame was, anything that forces teams to think twice before running choiced and all-out attackers and OHKOing their way to victory is welcome to me. A moveslot for Haze or something similiar to deal with evasion boosts would greatly slow down the offensive pressure, which in turn would make more playstyles viable.

I like this train of thought... would definitely make things more fun than DragMag.

 

[Soda]

If you're going to allow Evasion you might as well just allow everything. It's not necessary, it doesn't matter if its usable in the games, it's just bad taste to use even there. Evasion crosses a competitive line and that line has been firmly drawn for like, a decade. 100% Accuracy moves occasionally missing is one thing, there's your evasion, there. That's all you need. If that's not good enough for you stop playing. Also, let's not pretend Keen Eye Pelliper will suddenly be good when literally any Pokemon can learn Double Team.

Hax makes my blood boil, the loss of control makes me very angry. In the name of my health, I will never be in favor of allowing Evasion. I don't care how intertwined it is in the game, and thankfully for us, it's NOT. AT ALL. So leave it alone.

 

[Grey Knight]

I like this train of thought... would definitely make things more fun than DragMag.

You can't make things more fun that dragmag, anyway i don't think that those changes will change anything in meta , at least nothing that will cause evasion to be unbanned
most teams cant afford running something so weak and specialized to counter evasion "strategies" , i mean who will ever run prankster Haze murkrow.

 

[MrMewTwo]

It may provide diversity however that in itself is a double edge sword. The costs of this diversity are the following: 1) It brings even more luck into the metagame. That in itself I don't like. 2) If evasion becomes a superior method in winning games but not to the point that it is not broken, it will make moves like Haze manditory is team set ups. Evasion will increase in the meta game. That in itself isn't diversity. When a superior way of playing is found, typically, more people will use it. What you will be doing is NOT adding diversity in the meta but simply replacing one kind of metagame with another one. This replacement, however, is highly dependent on luck.

 

[Pata Hikari]

I'm completely against luck-based strategies no matter how 'dealable' it is, but it isn't really up for me to decide.

Never play Pokemon then. Every single move and strategy in the game has a luck based element.

Double Team spamming isn't even that good. Relying on it will make you lose more often then you win. Granted, it's a bit annoying so I don't weep it's banning too much. But the ridiculous banning of the evasion abilities that happened last generation was obnoxious.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Oh for the love of all that is good and holy no.

It's just about increasing diversity.

I fail to see how forcing people to rely on a handful of specific moves/abilities lest they be lucked out of a potential win could be considered "increasing diversity."

Never play Pokemon then. Every single move and strategy in the game has a luck based element.

Just because luck is inevitable doesn't mean we can't make good attempts to limit that amount of luck-based strategies allowed. We can't eliminate critical hits, secondary effects, misses, etc. without drastically altering the game mechanics, but we can certainly ban the moves that do nothing but increase the luck factor of a match.

Double Team spamming isn't even that good. Relying on it will make you lose more often then you win. Granted, it's a bit annoying so I don't weep it's banning too much. But the ridiculous banning of the evasion abilities that happened last generation was obnoxious.

To be perfectly honest, I've found the evasion abilities to be even worse than the moves. At least in the case of Double Team you have to waste a turn to boost evasion (although last generation's Minimize buff made it more worth it). With Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, the evasion boosts are completely passive. You can sit around and do whatever you want while dodging attacks 80% of the time. Heck, a Leftovers SubSD Garchomp in Sand could make up to 5 Subs, and you'd have less than 1/3 chance to break all 5. If you missed just once, it got a free turn to set up another Swords Dance, attack whatever's in front of it, or whatever else it wants. Even stuff like Gliscor could pull wins out of thin air with garbage like this. Sure it's more likely to not work in your favor, but the fact that evasion moves and abilities allow players to gain advantages and even when games by pure luck alone is just ridiculous.

 

[Pata Hikari]

If those are luck then any move with less then 100% accuracy is luck.

With a Pokemon with an evasion ability, you know that moves have less accuracy on them, and have to deal with it.

With the nerf weather's getting, I doubt that they'll be that potent.

I'd like to point out that official Nintendo formats don't have any Evasion Clause, yet you don't see people spamming evasion moves and abilities and nothing else, heck, you hardly see them at all!

 

[Alopex]

Also, let's not pretend Keen Eye Pelliper will suddenly be good when literally any Pokemon can learn Double Team.

most teams cant afford running something so weak and specialized to counter evasion "strategies" , i mean who will ever run prankster Haze murkrow.

I fail to see how forcing people to rely on a handful of specific moves/abilities lest they be lucked out of a potential win could be considered "increasing diversity."

Why is everyone ignoring the first line in my list?

Phazing is a thing. It is a massive thing. Phazing + entry hazard damage is an important thing. You will be phazing, because you already are phazing. And now you can phaze evaders guaranteed, every time.

Phazing is hardly "weak", "specialized", or has "handful" distribution. You can counter evasion just by doing your normal thing of accumulating entry hazards.

Like I said, if it's broken it's broken. Nobody wants to play with a broken mechanic. The question of my thread wasn't "can we unban it?", but "can it get suspect tested?"

 

[manutdrule]

luck has always been an omnipresent element in battles whether we like it or not, thats just how this game works.
Paraflinch, that crit netting you the crucial OHKO which otherwise would have change the entire course of the battle, sleep
and not to mention stone miss, focus miss, hurrimiss, nobody is going to stop using these as coverage moves anytime soon

 

[Agent Gibbs]

If those are luck then any move with less then 100% accuracy is luck.

That's not really a good analogy. You can't abuse Stone Edge's accuracy like you can abuse evasion moves or abilities. When you use Stone Edge, you do so accepting the risk of missing 20% of the time in exchange for the power and coverage. When you use Double Team/Minimize or Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, you do so to force a risk upon your opponent that they did not opt for.

Why is everyone ignoring the first line in my list?

It's not that people are ignoring it, it's just that phazing is not an end all answer to evasion moves. Phazing moves alongside entry hazards have already become a lot less appealing seeing as how Defog has essentially become an unblockable Rapid Spin. Not only that, but not every team can find room for a phazer, especially the offensive teams. Even for those teams that do have phazers, you still have to make sure that you have the right phazer for the right evasion booster. Obviously, Skarmory is doing nothing to stop Double Team Thundurus, and a Double Team Keldeo has little to fear from Hippowdon. You also need to read back over Yamborski's post when he mentions Baton Pass. Baton Pass teams have always had Magic Bounce Espeon to deal with phazers, and now they have Mega Absol as well. Baton Pass teams even have two far better Speed Boost passers in Blaziken and Scolipede, and so they're already buffed enough as it is. Phazing will do nothing to these teams due to the Magic Bounce users, so Baton Pass teams have the potential to be really scary with an evasion boost or two in the chain.

 

[Nysyr]

No thanks, Baton pass is retard on full auto-pilot as it is.

 

[Surgo]

So glad people are finally having this discussion. I've been for these moves since Advance; the introduction of natures and a mere two stats with max EVs was such an enormous blow to the power of evasion that it should have been allowed in right then and there. It's about time that people see Double Team for the risky move that it is.

 

[Fennekin]

Klefki @ Leftovers
Prankster, Impish. 252 hp / 252 def / 6 spdef
~Double Team
~Sub
~Torment
~Foul Play

What now.

 

[UltiMario]

Evasion clause is there because it makes the game more competitive with with factors we can control, like all other clauses. OU isn't a banlist, it doesn't matter how many counters, how many checks, and how bad evasion is or isn't. It makes the game less competitive and without Haze, BP evasion teams become endlessly frustrating thanks to Espeon.

It's bad for the game. If every single Pokemon in the game gained Keen Eye as an extra ability it would still be bad for the game. We have Evasion clause for the same reason as other clauses, to make the game better.

 

[AstralFire]

Klefki @ Leftovers
Prankster, Impish. 252 hp / 252 def / 6 spdef
~Double Team
~Sub
~Torment
~Foul Play

What now.

Keen Eye, Roosting Braviary pops every sub. So do Special Attackers with Shockwave. Anything with Aura Sphere, especially Togekiss, who can Roost. Roaring and Whirlwinding ignores subs.