OK, Counters was also updated on-site but reverted back, so I'll post it here too. Threats I thought I had updated, but apparently I didn't. For reference, the updates here were decided on in this PRC thread. The important bit from there is: Threats Changes: - Added all the above information - Added examples and clarification - Changed the questions to fit with the above HTML: [title] Threat Discussion [page] <p>After the Typing Poll, the Topic Leader will begin the Threats Discussion stage. Here, the community will debate on which Pokemon should be able to reliably, occasionally, and situationally check the CAP, as well as which Pokemon the CAP should itself be able to threaten in turn. Emphasis is here placed on the extent to which the CAP should be checked or countered by any given Pokemon. These debates must take into account two factors - firstly, the relevance to the concept, and secondly, what makes sense based on the typing and build that have been decided upon in the Typing and Concept Assessment stages. There is no poll for this stage - the Topic Leader will post their own list or judgement at the close of the thread.</p> <p>For example, were the concept to be centred around making a Pokemon that abuses Hail, and our having chosen, for sake of argument, the Ice / Steel typing, we might say that, from the typing, we can expect Fire- and Fighting-types, such as Infernape, Heatran, and Keldeo, to check the CAP to the greatest extent, and for other Pokemon such as Donphan, Breloom, and Tyranitar to be threatening but more checks than counters. However, based on the concept, we may well want this CAP to be able to beat weather-inducing Pokemon, or Politoed, Ninetales, Abomasnow, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, with little difficulty, which would necessitate a re-evaluation of our Threat lists. We may require an Electric-type attack to beat Politoed, for example, which makes Keldeo less likely as a potential counter. In addition, we should decide what Pokemon our CAP would be able to switch into and threaten - Dragons, for example, spring immediately to mind.</p> The following questions should be posted in the OP:</p> <div style=" border: 1px solid black; background-color: #E4E4FF; margin: 0 10em 2em 5em; padding: 0 1em 0em 1em; height: 20em; overflow: auto;"> <ul> <li><p>Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU (or relevant) metagame will likely be able to comfortably give this CAP trouble?</p></li> <li><p>What Pokemon will be major threats to this CAP right off the bat?</p></li> <li><p>What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?</p></li> <li><p>What Pokemon may end up as threats, but <strong>must</strong> be contained or dealt with as per the concept?</p></li> <li><p>Will the concept succeed with this set list of threats?</p></li> <li><p>Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?</p></li> <li><p>What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?</p></li> <li><p>Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?</p></li> <li><p>Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?</p></li> <li><p>What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?</p></li> <li><p>What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?</p></li> <li><p>What Pokemon do we want this CAP to counter entirely?</p></li> </ul> </div> <p>Be aware that this list of questions is not a checklist, and not every question must be definitively answered in every response.</p> <p>It should also be made clear that the decisions made in this stage are not binding, or at least, the Topic Leader reserves the right to change them at any given point if they so want, but they provide a useful framework that will largely be used to shape the subsequent competitive stages, namely Ability and Stat Spread. The list created here can also be re-evaluated in the <a href="/cap/process/events/counters_discussion">Counters Discussion</a> stage.</p> Counters Changes - Added all the above information - Grammar checks, I guess HTML: [title] Counters Discussion [page] <p>The Counters Discussion occurs before the Movepool Discussions and is a continuation of the <a href="/cap/process/events/threat_discussion">Threat Discussion</a>. The difference between the two is that the Counters Discussion is more concrete, given that the Stat Spread, Typing, and Abilities of the Pokemon have been decided already, narrowing (or maybe widening) the list of potential checks and counters. This stage of the Process is not compulsory, however, and may or may not occur depending on the Topic Leader's discretion - if the Topic Leader believes that the original list from the Threat Discussion stage still holds, they are under no obligation to hold this stage. It can, however, be useful to ensure that everybody is on the same page, regardless.</p> <p>The Topic Leader will post these guide questions in the OP of the Counter Discussion thread:</p> <div style=" border: 1px solid black; background-color: #E4E4FF; margin: 0 10em 2em 5em; padding: 0 1em 0em 1em; height: 20em; overflow: auto;"> <ul><li><p>Given the combination of Typing, Ability, and Stat Spread now decided, which previously defined threats are considered hard counters to the CAP?</p></li> <li><p>Which Pokemon are regarded as basic counters?</p></li> <li><p>Which Pokemon are checks?</p></li> <li><p>Are the Pokemon that are currently able to counter the CAP the Pokemon we want/need to counter the CAP, based on the concept?</p></li> <li><p>If not, what must be done to handle these Pokemon? Is it unavoidable?</p></li> <li><p>What Pokemon have arisen in discussions that were not brought up before? As in, are there Pokemon that counter/check this CAP that are not focused around its typing? Where should they be placed in the discussion?</p></li> <li><p>Which Pokemon have been taken out of the Counters Discussion due to the Stat Spread and Ability?</p></li> <li><p>Which Pokemon have moved from threats purely by typing to checks? To neutral match-ups?</p></li> <li><p>Which Pokemon are now countered by the CAP fully? Which are checked by the CAP? Which have become neutral match-ups against the CAP?</p></li> <li><p>With this set list of counters and checks, does this fulfill the concept's goal?</p></li></ul> </div> <p>The end goal of the Counters discussion will be the basis for limiting Attacking Moves and non-Attacking Moves. A few Pokemon will be selected as Pokemon that should Hard Counter the CAP based on fulfilling three of six criteria:</p> <ul> <li><p>Can switch into this CAP's strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.</p></li> <li><p>Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.</p></li> <li><p>Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.</p></li> <li><p>Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.</p></li> <li><p>Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking an OHKO.</p></li> <li><p>Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.</p></li> </ul> <p>Attacking Moves that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks under ordinary circumstances will not be allowed. Non-Attacking Moves such as stat boosters or Taunt that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks will not be allowed.</p> <p><em><b>Note:</b> If it would take both an attacking and a non-attacking move to alter a Hard Counter, whichever discussion comes first will limit the second discussion.</em></p> <p>For example, if Dragon Dance + Close Combat would turn a Pokemon from a Hard Counter into a Check, where neither Dragon Dance nor Close Combat alone would do so (e.g. Only +1 LO CC OHKOs, but the counter is ordinarily faster and can OHKO the CAP after taking a +0 LO Hit from Close Combat) then if Dragon Dance is selected first, Close Combat cannot be selected. If Close Combat is selected first, then Dragon Dance cannot be selected.</p> PS Use this for easier viewing.