WE DEM BOYZ
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Big Everybody Votes Mafia Game Over; Democracy and Communism win
- Thread starter vonFiedler
- Start date
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
thanks for trusting in me guys. i made some p unlikely assumptions last night and i'm happy they paid off. ggs all around
Last edited:
... Wait, I was the only Anarchy?
Well played.
GG, Democracy.
Well played.
GG, Democracy.
Postgame
So this game was really, really fucking hurt by general inactivity. Bass said during this game that mafia is what you make of it, and any villager who just did absolutely nothing could have teamed up with a few others and ended up having a lot more control than in other games. If they thought they had no power, that's what ended up happening though. The real result of this though is that the pacing was horrid, I think everyone would have liked the game better if it didn't take a month to play. I said before that mafia needs to get smaller with our current playerbase, and for 40 for a big game is small but I think bigs in general are just dead atm. I might have wanted to do another one soon but I sure as shit don't know.
So why did I make it big? Well to stuff it with neutrals that I had cool ideas for. But mostly because the more double roles I could fit onto the village, the safer the mafias could claim. Which, the mafia did not take advantage of at all so it was utterly pointless. As always in hindsight I'd make some numbers adjustments, but I made the village as big as I did because I thought Democracy would ultimately be a detriment to them (and... not wrong). Even then, with the numbers of the mafia and neutrals, they could have taken majority of the vote really quickly, and once zorbees started moling I don't think anyone thought there would be a village victory. I compared my game to Acklow's big when making this, and in Acklow's the mafia played almost perfectly with no crossfire, but still didn't have the numbers to win. In that same situation, the mafia would have stomped the village here. It's been said that the village didn't deserve to win, and you didn't in my opinion. But even though Oligarchy deserved to win, they still made some mistakes that led to this conclusion.
With the sheer amount of inactivity and subs I think it's pointless to talk about all the players in detail, so here is the role pm document. I'll just talk a bit about each team.
Democracy
These guys won, most didn't deserve it. Most did absolutely nothing. I made Democracy with the intent of everyone at least being a shinyskarmory in terms of player level, but some newbies were just nothing. Couldn't use irc, couldn't figure out how to bold a vote on the forum, I'm not some actually speak English. I'm sorry, I'm not usually a rampant dick toward my players but I'm also not like c'mon.
Some players deserved to win more than others. Billy and ipl obviously put in an effort, and ipl didn't win at all. Flamestrike was a good sub. StevenSnype and Ace Emerald pulled themselves together at the last minute but should not have idled for so long as they did.
Fascism
UncleSam got luck screwed really early, and that pretty much defined his play for the game. Oddly for giving him low-mid level allies, I think only skarm did nothing to help out. It was generally a pretty competent team with a competent leader, but circumstance and Oligarchy screwed them over.
Oligarchy
These guys probably deserved to win more than anyone, and mostly functioned as advertised, but they did make some major mistakes. Jumpluff was the major planner of the group for most of the game, with Yeti helping a great deal as well. zorbees certainly moled the village really too damn well at start, but as they got clearly complacent so did he, doing obvious things like attacking players through the decoy multiple times in a row. He also hurt their end game by listing jumpluff as suspicious on the village sheet. Lightwolf did his job as the go between with neutrals and fascism, but as far as I know all he ever did was try to piss off Sam, a tactic that ultimately lost the game. askaninjask did almost nothing, I mean normally I'd say he didn't really hurt his team but given that they were predicated on being the best players around having one do nothing hurt more than usual. As a whole, they killed off wolves too quickly (esp Paperblade) and fought with Fascism too much. This is what let the village win in the end.
Anarchy
Well, I can't say you bet on the wrong horse, but you put your eggs all in one basket. I dare say if Sam hadn't outed you, the game still could have gone in any direction. However, it was clear to him that you were favoring the Oligarchy.
Capitalism
Paperblade actually did a really good job of gaining money, but I really don't understand why he used it the way he did. Saving up for a recruit made sense, but even then he only used his kill twice, and spent money on stealth multiple times where it was not needed. As the most reliable wolf kill, and with no real protection, Oligarchy really should have left him alive to whittle down the village some more.
Idiocracy
Did almost nothing.
Theocracy
This was a really fun wolf role with lots of utility and a very viable win condition. I don't know if Walrein ever really tried to get into that kingmaker scenario, he was by far the most elusive wolf throughout the game with his inspect protection confusing several players.
I'm giving MVP to a tie between jumpluff and Yeti. jumpluff did the most for her team but subbed out, and yeti did the second most. Normally I'd consider StevenSnype but he did dick all for most of the game.
Aight that's it. The forums are gonna be unlocked so everyone can see everything.
So this game was really, really fucking hurt by general inactivity. Bass said during this game that mafia is what you make of it, and any villager who just did absolutely nothing could have teamed up with a few others and ended up having a lot more control than in other games. If they thought they had no power, that's what ended up happening though. The real result of this though is that the pacing was horrid, I think everyone would have liked the game better if it didn't take a month to play. I said before that mafia needs to get smaller with our current playerbase, and for 40 for a big game is small but I think bigs in general are just dead atm. I might have wanted to do another one soon but I sure as shit don't know.
So why did I make it big? Well to stuff it with neutrals that I had cool ideas for. But mostly because the more double roles I could fit onto the village, the safer the mafias could claim. Which, the mafia did not take advantage of at all so it was utterly pointless. As always in hindsight I'd make some numbers adjustments, but I made the village as big as I did because I thought Democracy would ultimately be a detriment to them (and... not wrong). Even then, with the numbers of the mafia and neutrals, they could have taken majority of the vote really quickly, and once zorbees started moling I don't think anyone thought there would be a village victory. I compared my game to Acklow's big when making this, and in Acklow's the mafia played almost perfectly with no crossfire, but still didn't have the numbers to win. In that same situation, the mafia would have stomped the village here. It's been said that the village didn't deserve to win, and you didn't in my opinion. But even though Oligarchy deserved to win, they still made some mistakes that led to this conclusion.
With the sheer amount of inactivity and subs I think it's pointless to talk about all the players in detail, so here is the role pm document. I'll just talk a bit about each team.
Democracy
These guys won, most didn't deserve it. Most did absolutely nothing. I made Democracy with the intent of everyone at least being a shinyskarmory in terms of player level, but some newbies were just nothing. Couldn't use irc, couldn't figure out how to bold a vote on the forum, I'm not some actually speak English. I'm sorry, I'm not usually a rampant dick toward my players but I'm also not like c'mon.
Some players deserved to win more than others. Billy and ipl obviously put in an effort, and ipl didn't win at all. Flamestrike was a good sub. StevenSnype and Ace Emerald pulled themselves together at the last minute but should not have idled for so long as they did.
Fascism
UncleSam got luck screwed really early, and that pretty much defined his play for the game. Oddly for giving him low-mid level allies, I think only skarm did nothing to help out. It was generally a pretty competent team with a competent leader, but circumstance and Oligarchy screwed them over.
Oligarchy
These guys probably deserved to win more than anyone, and mostly functioned as advertised, but they did make some major mistakes. Jumpluff was the major planner of the group for most of the game, with Yeti helping a great deal as well. zorbees certainly moled the village really too damn well at start, but as they got clearly complacent so did he, doing obvious things like attacking players through the decoy multiple times in a row. He also hurt their end game by listing jumpluff as suspicious on the village sheet. Lightwolf did his job as the go between with neutrals and fascism, but as far as I know all he ever did was try to piss off Sam, a tactic that ultimately lost the game. askaninjask did almost nothing, I mean normally I'd say he didn't really hurt his team but given that they were predicated on being the best players around having one do nothing hurt more than usual. As a whole, they killed off wolves too quickly (esp Paperblade) and fought with Fascism too much. This is what let the village win in the end.
Anarchy
Well, I can't say you bet on the wrong horse, but you put your eggs all in one basket. I dare say if Sam hadn't outed you, the game still could have gone in any direction. However, it was clear to him that you were favoring the Oligarchy.
Capitalism
Paperblade actually did a really good job of gaining money, but I really don't understand why he used it the way he did. Saving up for a recruit made sense, but even then he only used his kill twice, and spent money on stealth multiple times where it was not needed. As the most reliable wolf kill, and with no real protection, Oligarchy really should have left him alive to whittle down the village some more.
Idiocracy
Did almost nothing.
Theocracy
This was a really fun wolf role with lots of utility and a very viable win condition. I don't know if Walrein ever really tried to get into that kingmaker scenario, he was by far the most elusive wolf throughout the game with his inspect protection confusing several players.
I'm giving MVP to a tie between jumpluff and Yeti. jumpluff did the most for her team but subbed out, and yeti did the second most. Normally I'd consider StevenSnype but he did dick all for most of the game.
Aight that's it. The forums are gonna be unlocked so everyone can see everything.
ariariadne
formerly Reinfleche
Glad I at least met expectations, apparently. I had fun while I was alive talking with my team and was a bit disappointed when I died, but I didn't have to deal with endgame shenanigans, which seemed unpleasant, so that's maybe a bonus.
I think the Lex Luthor role was really cool.
I think the Lex Luthor role was really cool.
I completely agree with mafia being as fun as you make it.
In this game I was pleasantly surprised with the design and the public discussion. I really thought that other villagers would have realized that they had in their power to disobey vote lists and that would have made them more active... Reading posts of UncleSam and Yeti really made the endgame. I think that was one of the mistakes leading to the loss of mafia. I speculate that the interesting public discussion sparked interest among the remaining villagers, leading to competency. Should zorbees have just pushed forward with an iron fist and silence, Oligarchy would have won more probably.
In this game I was pleasantly surprised with the design and the public discussion. I really thought that other villagers would have realized that they had in their power to disobey vote lists and that would have made them more active... Reading posts of UncleSam and Yeti really made the endgame. I think that was one of the mistakes leading to the loss of mafia. I speculate that the interesting public discussion sparked interest among the remaining villagers, leading to competency. Should zorbees have just pushed forward with an iron fist and silence, Oligarchy would have won more probably.
rofl @ utter (BAN ME PLEASE)S like macle and 90% of the rest of the village who do nothing all game/idle/barely care. somehow they either crap out a win or get fed it by sam doing dumb things. I am truly disgusted with the play from the village, even people like snype who 'led' it to victory. he did NOTHING all game until sam ranted for 3 pages in the thread about how zorbees is a mole. the only reason we even got close to winning because our roles were bad, we were small and we had no ability to mole is because of all the ingrate idle/complacent villagers who paid 0 attention. only billymills and ipl really stepped up to look at what zorbees was doing and we killed them as quickly as we could. nobody found that suspicious for eons??
I am also disappointed at the Fascists sharing so much info with the village, that's pretty pussy play. And it led to them losing. They never trusted LW or I saying we began with 5 people and I don't feel like Sam was willing to properly cooperate with us lategame. We had dicked him around early with changing our kill targets (though we never should have committed to half of them in the first place, that was us squabbling within our team about who to kill and who to vig, etc.) and I mean yeah zorbees ran a lynchtrain on his team, and we got Paperblade to kill one of his dudes. IF Sam had worked with us and I was less incensed at the general game and how NOBODY WOULD LISTEN TO ME ABOUT ANYTHING I think one of the mafias would have won. But it never really felt like he wanted to cooperate, plus he was just selling his own info to the village so I was too concerned he'd sell ours. Him killing Kobold sealed the game imo, we needed that hook badly to stop his team from getting wiped the final night. But I didn't feel like I wouldn't get screwed over even more if I did tell him 'pls leave kobold alone baby don't hurt me like that' ... which brings me to:
Aura. Frkin. Guardian. hoooooly piss did we ever shake our gd heads at him. He played so cowardly, even though he was being moled Hard by DLE he refused to commit to taking the lynch/forcing anything when we had 4 people and could have because zorbees still controlled the village and we had Wraith 1 time persuade. Also Aura Guardian DID NOT TELL US THAT SAM WAS GOING TO TARGET KOBOLD AFTER SAYING HIS VIG WAS DOWN. WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY LITERALLY WHY. Why would he want EITHER mafia to be crossfired? It's so directly against his WC I can't BELIEVE IT. He needed both of us to have as many people alive for as long as possible in order to ensure his win BUT HE DIDN'T TELL US THE OTHER MAFIA'S KILL TARGET JUST WHY. The only reason we left Kobold unprotected is zorbees told us the village was vigging it, but the vig was down. BUT AG TELLS SAM, AND NOT US? JFC I HATE THIS GAME. I HATE NEUTRALS I HATE IDLERS I HATE RETARD VILLAGERS I. HATE. ALL. OF. U. BADS. I'm so salty we have stupid as piss neutrals who don't tell both mafias thing that COULD DIRECTLY HARM THEIR WC BY NOT SAYING. He was so cowardly all game which was a fault of the WC von gave him when he thought DLE was on his team but really. His reluctance to commit to anything was just like UGH.
I think we made a couple mistakes: one was not demanding aska just plain be subbed because he did NOTHING. He and zorbees never finalized his fake claim and the faked results. He had a shoddy fake that jumpluff rewrote but his alias was a sitting duck when Sam came forward with it. We also should have lynched aska the day before we did. I had wanted to kill Snype's role for a couple nights before I finally had exclusive control of the team but zorbees wanted to keep it alive. I think this was a huge mistake, zorbees had prioritized the role but he was just not on enough to discuss what his plans were anymore. I feel like we maybe should have had zorbees sub out as well, he had a lot going on irl with his family and I don't think he was making the best decisions anymore. I don't believe he should have continued to mole and given Snype/anyone else the sheet, nor that he should have given them a correct one. This falls into play with AG again that he NEVER TOLD US ANYTHING INTELLIGENT but I guess he couldn't? but he could have asked if Wraith was a mafia and if he should try and hide it, idk, zorbees refused to change Wraith being suspicious when Wraith was the alias we had set up to be trusted and steal leadership from him in a crunch which I think was dumb. Then he vanished. Subbing Acklow in was also a mistake as he did not really contribute anything. We sort of self-imploded with having too many 'good players' because LightWolf didn't want to speak up about protecting his alias or anything else and once I lost jumpluff to help reason with people it went downhill. zorbees wanted to have spiresquire vig billy which jumpluff and I were like NO THAT IS SO SHADY WTF ARE YOU DOING LET US KILL HIM but THANK THE LORD FOR IDLERS squire was not on and never submitted his action so we had him subbed and zorbees told him a different target, allowing us to kill billy. Also thank RBG for never counterclaiming/believing zorbees, who listed him as Alliance Checker for 5 years and chronic-idler-RBG let it happen.
That being said, I believe an equal amount of the fault for our couple misplays/inability to properly work with the Fascists/them just plain giving the village too much info and me being too wary about giving them anymore due to that falls on the balance/game design.
I don't think a team of 5 smart players can win a game when a. it is incredibly hard to realistically fakeclaim due to the vote roles IF YOU ARE NOT MOLING b. the only way you can mole is due to the idling/complacency of the village role you claim c. their roles are not that good d. there are more neutrals in the game than members of their team e. they could get wiped in 1-2 nights, easily
Worg becomes a dead alias when its teammates die. Phoenix can only use 1 of the SG/hook a night and inspector is a useless role when you have all info already (except wtf Basilisk was but WE GOT TROLLED HARD AF BY DLE ROLE). Rust Monster was good but held by an idling scrub who never got a fake so zorbees had no proper defense of it. Kobold we botched protection of thanks to AG. Wraith was a proper mafia role - too bad it and Kobold were the only proper mafia roles we had (I think RMonster was a gimpy kidnap). We had NO VOTE CONTROL except the 1 time silence and 1 time persuade of Wraith's. The Fascists had: silencer, persuader (both nightly) and the self-kidnap. wat. just wat. We had no ability to actually control the game, only hope our mole was never found out. Also the Fascists had a delayed killer? I legit thought Worg was a second killer like squire's role in Acklow's game when I opened the thread. But he was our only one. But the Fascists had CANNOT BE HOOKED QUEEN Medusa and that delayed thing. Salt. Salt. Salt.
Salt. I will say that I am REALLY SICK of being on a gimpy small mafia in a big. You don't know how disappointed I have been the past two bigs (Acklow's and this) to open my mafia forum and see only 3-4 other people on my team. The first big I played I was mafia and we had 10 people iirc. Acklow's we had FOUR. This game we had five. And both times we had had gimpy versions of roles - twice-only kidnapper, an alias that can only kill and has a conditional BPV, etc. It is NOT. FUN. You have to be so concerned about a freak accident wiping your team out. And you have no recourse when your aliases are found. You just sit there and sigh because you have no vote control. I was probably less cooperative this game than I could've been simply due to this.
Please stop with the small/weak mafias. Gimped roles are to be used in SMALLS to balance out the fact the mafia has to be baby to not get majority too early, so the village gets weak roles. IMO they should NEVER be given to a mafia, ESPECIALLY one that is so small already. The mafia is just a glorified wolf faction at this point. It is not fun to play with weaker roles on a small mafia - you get too paranoid and concerned about everything and feel helpless. If we had 1 or 2 more members OR more powerful roles (though it didn't help our lategame roles were the ones we had to watch die) I believe we would have secured the win. Unfortunately Sam turned on us a little too early for his own safety. And we misplayed protecting Kobold THANK YOU SO MUCH AG.
Also I hate neutrals x5000000 I don't think I need to reiterate my distaste for neutrals.
I think the village had too many strong roles and if we hadn't been able to mole for so long we would have been instantly found out - the Fascists who fakeclaimed all had very obvious fakes. It wasn't hard to find out who they were due to their claims. The same would have happened to us as we had nothing to hide behind.
I think von had some interesting ideas and some good concepts but the balance ultimately fell short - our team was just too small and too weak because time and time again, information without power loses. You need enough power to put your information to good use. We also thought the Fascists had 8 for the entire game which is why we hit them so hard. And Sam didn't believe we only had 5 for way too long. I don't want to harp on him too much because I think he was a good host but I am just really salty over small/gimpy mafias. The Fascists were also too small for how large the village was imo, and we were certainly too tiny to have a proper chance.
Also LightWolf like repeatedly didn't do what we asked him to when talking to Sam. But we weren't sure he hadn't told Sam the stuff we wanted him to - like that we only had 5 people. Which he never said -___- and they didn't let me talk to Sam for ages even though I would have sweettalked him more than LW did after LW's foreign stall games. Acklow was also Not A Contributor, along with askaninjask who had Good Team Syndrome and let us do all the work, to the point where he and zorbees couldn't even get his fake results ready and we had to let him go after he got THE DOOM.
My buddy jumpluff was with me to talk zorbees out of silly things like vigging billy but once she left it sort of went even more downhill and then I had like no team by the end due to zorbees' irl problems, Acklow just not being on/tuned in and LightWolf having weird timezones/never having told Sam anything.
Ultimately we have to apologize to the Fascists for not communicating properly, though our back-outs on kills were always more beneficial than what they said!! And we were 101% convinced Basilisk was their eighth member. That being said if Sam had tried to talk to me before he revealed our entire team and AG and tried to stroke our dicks so we'd work with him more it would have helped a lot but he refused to think we only began with 5 people for too long I think. Instead he stroked village dick and wound up hitting us too hard for his team to stand any chance.
screw you idling village scums BAD GAME YOU DICKBAGS STOP JOINING GAMES YOU WON'T PUT ANY TIME INTO thanks for hosting von. other hosts PLS NO MORE GIMPY BABBY MAFIAS THEY MAKE EVERYONE ON THEM SAD
I am also disappointed at the Fascists sharing so much info with the village, that's pretty pussy play. And it led to them losing. They never trusted LW or I saying we began with 5 people and I don't feel like Sam was willing to properly cooperate with us lategame. We had dicked him around early with changing our kill targets (though we never should have committed to half of them in the first place, that was us squabbling within our team about who to kill and who to vig, etc.) and I mean yeah zorbees ran a lynchtrain on his team, and we got Paperblade to kill one of his dudes. IF Sam had worked with us and I was less incensed at the general game and how NOBODY WOULD LISTEN TO ME ABOUT ANYTHING I think one of the mafias would have won. But it never really felt like he wanted to cooperate, plus he was just selling his own info to the village so I was too concerned he'd sell ours. Him killing Kobold sealed the game imo, we needed that hook badly to stop his team from getting wiped the final night. But I didn't feel like I wouldn't get screwed over even more if I did tell him 'pls leave kobold alone baby don't hurt me like that' ... which brings me to:
Aura. Frkin. Guardian. hoooooly piss did we ever shake our gd heads at him. He played so cowardly, even though he was being moled Hard by DLE he refused to commit to taking the lynch/forcing anything when we had 4 people and could have because zorbees still controlled the village and we had Wraith 1 time persuade. Also Aura Guardian DID NOT TELL US THAT SAM WAS GOING TO TARGET KOBOLD AFTER SAYING HIS VIG WAS DOWN. WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY LITERALLY WHY. Why would he want EITHER mafia to be crossfired? It's so directly against his WC I can't BELIEVE IT. He needed both of us to have as many people alive for as long as possible in order to ensure his win BUT HE DIDN'T TELL US THE OTHER MAFIA'S KILL TARGET JUST WHY. The only reason we left Kobold unprotected is zorbees told us the village was vigging it, but the vig was down. BUT AG TELLS SAM, AND NOT US? JFC I HATE THIS GAME. I HATE NEUTRALS I HATE IDLERS I HATE RETARD VILLAGERS I. HATE. ALL. OF. U. BADS. I'm so salty we have stupid as piss neutrals who don't tell both mafias thing that COULD DIRECTLY HARM THEIR WC BY NOT SAYING. He was so cowardly all game which was a fault of the WC von gave him when he thought DLE was on his team but really. His reluctance to commit to anything was just like UGH.
I think we made a couple mistakes: one was not demanding aska just plain be subbed because he did NOTHING. He and zorbees never finalized his fake claim and the faked results. He had a shoddy fake that jumpluff rewrote but his alias was a sitting duck when Sam came forward with it. We also should have lynched aska the day before we did. I had wanted to kill Snype's role for a couple nights before I finally had exclusive control of the team but zorbees wanted to keep it alive. I think this was a huge mistake, zorbees had prioritized the role but he was just not on enough to discuss what his plans were anymore. I feel like we maybe should have had zorbees sub out as well, he had a lot going on irl with his family and I don't think he was making the best decisions anymore. I don't believe he should have continued to mole and given Snype/anyone else the sheet, nor that he should have given them a correct one. This falls into play with AG again that he NEVER TOLD US ANYTHING INTELLIGENT but I guess he couldn't? but he could have asked if Wraith was a mafia and if he should try and hide it, idk, zorbees refused to change Wraith being suspicious when Wraith was the alias we had set up to be trusted and steal leadership from him in a crunch which I think was dumb. Then he vanished. Subbing Acklow in was also a mistake as he did not really contribute anything. We sort of self-imploded with having too many 'good players' because LightWolf didn't want to speak up about protecting his alias or anything else and once I lost jumpluff to help reason with people it went downhill. zorbees wanted to have spiresquire vig billy which jumpluff and I were like NO THAT IS SO SHADY WTF ARE YOU DOING LET US KILL HIM but THANK THE LORD FOR IDLERS squire was not on and never submitted his action so we had him subbed and zorbees told him a different target, allowing us to kill billy. Also thank RBG for never counterclaiming/believing zorbees, who listed him as Alliance Checker for 5 years and chronic-idler-RBG let it happen.
That being said, I believe an equal amount of the fault for our couple misplays/inability to properly work with the Fascists/them just plain giving the village too much info and me being too wary about giving them anymore due to that falls on the balance/game design.
I don't think a team of 5 smart players can win a game when a. it is incredibly hard to realistically fakeclaim due to the vote roles IF YOU ARE NOT MOLING b. the only way you can mole is due to the idling/complacency of the village role you claim c. their roles are not that good d. there are more neutrals in the game than members of their team e. they could get wiped in 1-2 nights, easily
Worg becomes a dead alias when its teammates die. Phoenix can only use 1 of the SG/hook a night and inspector is a useless role when you have all info already (except wtf Basilisk was but WE GOT TROLLED HARD AF BY DLE ROLE). Rust Monster was good but held by an idling scrub who never got a fake so zorbees had no proper defense of it. Kobold we botched protection of thanks to AG. Wraith was a proper mafia role - too bad it and Kobold were the only proper mafia roles we had (I think RMonster was a gimpy kidnap). We had NO VOTE CONTROL except the 1 time silence and 1 time persuade of Wraith's. The Fascists had: silencer, persuader (both nightly) and the self-kidnap. wat. just wat. We had no ability to actually control the game, only hope our mole was never found out. Also the Fascists had a delayed killer? I legit thought Worg was a second killer like squire's role in Acklow's game when I opened the thread. But he was our only one. But the Fascists had CANNOT BE HOOKED QUEEN Medusa and that delayed thing. Salt. Salt. Salt.
Salt. I will say that I am REALLY SICK of being on a gimpy small mafia in a big. You don't know how disappointed I have been the past two bigs (Acklow's and this) to open my mafia forum and see only 3-4 other people on my team. The first big I played I was mafia and we had 10 people iirc. Acklow's we had FOUR. This game we had five. And both times we had had gimpy versions of roles - twice-only kidnapper, an alias that can only kill and has a conditional BPV, etc. It is NOT. FUN. You have to be so concerned about a freak accident wiping your team out. And you have no recourse when your aliases are found. You just sit there and sigh because you have no vote control. I was probably less cooperative this game than I could've been simply due to this.
Please stop with the small/weak mafias. Gimped roles are to be used in SMALLS to balance out the fact the mafia has to be baby to not get majority too early, so the village gets weak roles. IMO they should NEVER be given to a mafia, ESPECIALLY one that is so small already. The mafia is just a glorified wolf faction at this point. It is not fun to play with weaker roles on a small mafia - you get too paranoid and concerned about everything and feel helpless. If we had 1 or 2 more members OR more powerful roles (though it didn't help our lategame roles were the ones we had to watch die) I believe we would have secured the win. Unfortunately Sam turned on us a little too early for his own safety. And we misplayed protecting Kobold THANK YOU SO MUCH AG.
Also I hate neutrals x5000000 I don't think I need to reiterate my distaste for neutrals.
I think the village had too many strong roles and if we hadn't been able to mole for so long we would have been instantly found out - the Fascists who fakeclaimed all had very obvious fakes. It wasn't hard to find out who they were due to their claims. The same would have happened to us as we had nothing to hide behind.
I think von had some interesting ideas and some good concepts but the balance ultimately fell short - our team was just too small and too weak because time and time again, information without power loses. You need enough power to put your information to good use. We also thought the Fascists had 8 for the entire game which is why we hit them so hard. And Sam didn't believe we only had 5 for way too long. I don't want to harp on him too much because I think he was a good host but I am just really salty over small/gimpy mafias. The Fascists were also too small for how large the village was imo, and we were certainly too tiny to have a proper chance.
Also LightWolf like repeatedly didn't do what we asked him to when talking to Sam. But we weren't sure he hadn't told Sam the stuff we wanted him to - like that we only had 5 people. Which he never said -___- and they didn't let me talk to Sam for ages even though I would have sweettalked him more than LW did after LW's foreign stall games. Acklow was also Not A Contributor, along with askaninjask who had Good Team Syndrome and let us do all the work, to the point where he and zorbees couldn't even get his fake results ready and we had to let him go after he got THE DOOM.
My buddy jumpluff was with me to talk zorbees out of silly things like vigging billy but once she left it sort of went even more downhill and then I had like no team by the end due to zorbees' irl problems, Acklow just not being on/tuned in and LightWolf having weird timezones/never having told Sam anything.
Ultimately we have to apologize to the Fascists for not communicating properly, though our back-outs on kills were always more beneficial than what they said!! And we were 101% convinced Basilisk was their eighth member. That being said if Sam had tried to talk to me before he revealed our entire team and AG and tried to stroke our dicks so we'd work with him more it would have helped a lot but he refused to think we only began with 5 people for too long I think. Instead he stroked village dick and wound up hitting us too hard for his team to stand any chance.
screw you idling village scums BAD GAME YOU DICKBAGS STOP JOINING GAMES YOU WON'T PUT ANY TIME INTO thanks for hosting von. other hosts PLS NO MORE GIMPY BABBY MAFIAS THEY MAKE EVERYONE ON THEM SAD
Village was overpowered though they also played the best late game; early game they played so horribly they deserved to lose overall, though.
Miscommunication between the mafias also hurt both of us really badly. I think that even with how OP the village was they would not have won without us being at each others' throats all game, largely due to miscommunications. It also enabled the reverse mole to destroy what little trust we had in each other for the entirety of late game.
We need to make games simpler and easier to understand so that more players can become interested in and participate in mafia games. There are MAYBE 10-15 users who want to think through a game as complicated as this one and MAYBE 10-15 more who will reliably sign up and then idle through said game.
Village leader system and overly complex mafias are ruining this forum. Hopefully this game is the last in a number of mafias that proves this point.
I strongly encourage all future big mafia hosts to make games LESS complicated by far. It's less fun for a few of the most interested users but it will ensure healthier games overall.
Again, GG WP
Miscommunication between the mafias also hurt both of us really badly. I think that even with how OP the village was they would not have won without us being at each others' throats all game, largely due to miscommunications. It also enabled the reverse mole to destroy what little trust we had in each other for the entirety of late game.
We need to make games simpler and easier to understand so that more players can become interested in and participate in mafia games. There are MAYBE 10-15 users who want to think through a game as complicated as this one and MAYBE 10-15 more who will reliably sign up and then idle through said game.
Village leader system and overly complex mafias are ruining this forum. Hopefully this game is the last in a number of mafias that proves this point.
I strongly encourage all future big mafia hosts to make games LESS complicated by far. It's less fun for a few of the most interested users but it will ensure healthier games overall.
Again, GG WP
It's ok tesung I'm best mole na that's how it all worked out. I stayed distant from the village until it became obvious the moles were purged and that yeti and Sam trusted me almost completely.
I like that my name is now being used as a descriptor of player skill.
Wish I had participated more but IIRC I got killed like N1 so :(
Wish I had participated more but IIRC I got killed like N1 so :(
I agree with UncleSam that village leader system is horrible. It causes inactivity in the village which is the biggest problem with mafia games at the moment. Overly complex games are good because they are fun to reverse-engineer and/or experience to unravel and also the what makes Smogon mafia stand out. The complexity also makes the teams and individuals do more mistakes, which leads to a more intense game, which encourages activity and fun.
I agree that this game was a little too complicated. I felt the same about von's last small with the HP stuff. I was intending to be very active this game but the Vote stuff confused me for a while. Not to say I don't appreciate the effort von puts into his games and trying to balance those mechanics but they just leave me going "why mafia so hard"
I think interesting roles are the key to complexity, not game structure/mechanics itself. Otherwise the base skill level to successfully play is too high, while experienced players can be given complex roles in a 'simple' game.
idk I personally enjoy less complex design/mechanic games more than those that I have to reread the rules 5 times to make sure I have everything specific to the game straight.
I think interesting roles are the key to complexity, not game structure/mechanics itself. Otherwise the base skill level to successfully play is too high, while experienced players can be given complex roles in a 'simple' game.
idk I personally enjoy less complex design/mechanic games more than those that I have to reread the rules 5 times to make sure I have everything specific to the game straight.
ez
My thoughts on a few things:
First, about the communists: We were "neutrals" only in the sense that our win condition had one additional stipulation from the normal democracy one, which was idiocracy losing. Otherwise we were indeed just millers with back-up. To me, this struck me as a rather weird role combination since the ways to play a miller and back-up optimally are completely opposite. That, and I was also given a partner with the exact same role, so this also made it difficult to fake claim as well. In essence, we were basically villagers (who couldn't vote) that had virtually no way of being 100% trusted and therefore had no chance of being involved in the leadership, zorbees moled or not. The only potentially interesting thing we could do was try to "mole" the mafia and make them think we were anti-village neutrals, which is something I did try to do, but was unfortunately in vain due to the fact that communism being democracy aligned millers was revealed in the role PMs of two other neutrals (Walrein and Paperblade). Ughhhhh.
Anyway since I had no indication as to whether idiocracy also needed me dead explicitly, I played it veryparanoid safe during the early game and decided to not reveal my communist alliance to zorbees until I was sure about the idiocracy win condition. I thought billy's vote fishing seemed sketchy at first, but when he died the following night it made me much more suspicious of zorbees, so I didn't feel ready to reveal my true role PM to him. Unfortunately, this was the point where I felt that my teammate (Quagsires) was very unreliable since he took so long to finish his fake claim (and knew that he looked suspicious afterwards), and he then gave zorbees his alias too without even running it by me... Needless to say at that point I was screwed since Quagsires died the following night, which basically outed me too. It was at this point that I started to reveal to people that I was communist. It didn't matter anyway since I was more or less randkilled by the Fascists shortly afterwards. And yet I "won", somehow!
As far as game design goes, I think that Oligarchy and Fascist numbers should have been more equal. The idea of making a small mafia with mostly good players to fit the theme of "oligarchy" was novel but as past games have shown, it is usually better to make quasi-equally sized mafia factions in 2v1 games. Also, I think communism shouldn't have been village aligned to begin, and should have instead had an anti-theocracy or capitalism win condition of some sort. Finally, von's biggest mistake as a host was giving the inspector role to RBG of all people. I am not sure if he knew of his notorious reputation for idling in mafia games or not, but we all know that zorbees wouldn't have successfully moled if that role was given to a more competent player.
Anyway, while I am sure that both hard-working mafias were disappointed with the village's undeserved win, I would still like to thank von for hosting this game, having been the first big game I have played in quite a while! I still agree that mafia (or any game in general) is what you make of it, and while you were well aware of the mistakes you made as a host, the onus is on the players to get themselves interested in the game. I managed to do this despite the very mediocre role I was given, and people like Yeti and UncleSam did it too despite losing in the end.
First, about the communists: We were "neutrals" only in the sense that our win condition had one additional stipulation from the normal democracy one, which was idiocracy losing. Otherwise we were indeed just millers with back-up. To me, this struck me as a rather weird role combination since the ways to play a miller and back-up optimally are completely opposite. That, and I was also given a partner with the exact same role, so this also made it difficult to fake claim as well. In essence, we were basically villagers (who couldn't vote) that had virtually no way of being 100% trusted and therefore had no chance of being involved in the leadership, zorbees moled or not. The only potentially interesting thing we could do was try to "mole" the mafia and make them think we were anti-village neutrals, which is something I did try to do, but was unfortunately in vain due to the fact that communism being democracy aligned millers was revealed in the role PMs of two other neutrals (Walrein and Paperblade). Ughhhhh.
Anyway since I had no indication as to whether idiocracy also needed me dead explicitly, I played it very
As far as game design goes, I think that Oligarchy and Fascist numbers should have been more equal. The idea of making a small mafia with mostly good players to fit the theme of "oligarchy" was novel but as past games have shown, it is usually better to make quasi-equally sized mafia factions in 2v1 games. Also, I think communism shouldn't have been village aligned to begin, and should have instead had an anti-theocracy or capitalism win condition of some sort. Finally, von's biggest mistake as a host was giving the inspector role to RBG of all people. I am not sure if he knew of his notorious reputation for idling in mafia games or not, but we all know that zorbees wouldn't have successfully moled if that role was given to a more competent player.
Anyway, while I am sure that both hard-working mafias were disappointed with the village's undeserved win, I would still like to thank von for hosting this game, having been the first big game I have played in quite a while! I still agree that mafia (or any game in general) is what you make of it, and while you were well aware of the mistakes you made as a host, the onus is on the players to get themselves interested in the game. I managed to do this despite the very mediocre role I was given, and people like Yeti and UncleSam did it too despite losing in the end.
Last edited:
I think the mafia sizes were fine. Had DLE been an actual anarchist, it would have been reasonably balanced.
The issue was the oligarchy had no way of deflating their numbers. When they only have 5 to start and the expectation is that they had 7, people are going to assume they are larger than they are, up until they're eliminated. I having the communists turn up as oligarchs instead of independent neutrals would have solved that major issue.
The other concern is role balance for the mafias. I haven't really looked at what they all had, but I think they could have used a few extra powers.
The issue was the oligarchy had no way of deflating their numbers. When they only have 5 to start and the expectation is that they had 7, people are going to assume they are larger than they are, up until they're eliminated. I having the communists turn up as oligarchs instead of independent neutrals would have solved that major issue.
The other concern is role balance for the mafias. I haven't really looked at what they all had, but I think they could have used a few extra powers.
I think the Reverse Mole was by far the biggest problem with balance
As mentioned, the Oligarchy numbers were problematic because Fascists were not informed they had fewer than us, and it took me until like Day 5 to realize maybe they actually had 5. I feel if the Fascists had been informed as well it would make us much less likely to turn on them early on, and would have been better for both of us.
Finally, I think that the Dire Rat (mine) and Dryad roles (Shinyskarmory's) as well as the Phoenix role and probably the Worg role were weak and would all qualify as bottomfeeder village roles if they had been on the village. When the village has twice as many as the two of us put together to start with it just makes it really hard to deal with.
As mentioned, the Oligarchy numbers were problematic because Fascists were not informed they had fewer than us, and it took me until like Day 5 to realize maybe they actually had 5. I feel if the Fascists had been informed as well it would make us much less likely to turn on them early on, and would have been better for both of us.
Finally, I think that the Dire Rat (mine) and Dryad roles (Shinyskarmory's) as well as the Phoenix role and probably the Worg role were weak and would all qualify as bottomfeeder village roles if they had been on the village. When the village has twice as many as the two of us put together to start with it just makes it really hard to deal with.
Worg and Phoenix are only good as long as they have teammates. Phoenix could either SG or Hook someone lategame but inspector was meh at that point and Worg really needs a team to work around since it's just a kill alias.
jumpluff felt that the Anarchists only worsened the gap between us and the Fascists - if they sided with them, the Fascists had 9-'10' people, which is the logical thing to do instead of betting on the smaller team to not get throttled by randkills and crap. That being said we did convince AG to go with us more than Sam I think, but his scared play and the fact he didn't tell us what he told Sam about the vig so we knew who Sam was killing screwed him over. He really needed to communicate better between the two mafias so we could avoid stuff like that.
Sam not knowing we REALLY WERE BABBY TEAM I SWEAR GUYS RLY led to him turning on us way too early for his own good, as well as taking out Kobold a night or two too early.
What messed us up was thinking Basilisk couldn't be Demo due to the sheet being 29/30, when it was really Tesung/DLE's alias that was wrongly labeled as Anarchy.
Bad communication destroys relationships kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jumpluff felt that the Anarchists only worsened the gap between us and the Fascists - if they sided with them, the Fascists had 9-'10' people, which is the logical thing to do instead of betting on the smaller team to not get throttled by randkills and crap. That being said we did convince AG to go with us more than Sam I think, but his scared play and the fact he didn't tell us what he told Sam about the vig so we knew who Sam was killing screwed him over. He really needed to communicate better between the two mafias so we could avoid stuff like that.
Sam not knowing we REALLY WERE BABBY TEAM I SWEAR GUYS RLY led to him turning on us way too early for his own good, as well as taking out Kobold a night or two too early.
What messed us up was thinking Basilisk couldn't be Demo due to the sheet being 29/30, when it was really Tesung/DLE's alias that was wrongly labeled as Anarchy.
Bad communication destroys relationships kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh trust me, I did. The plan was to use the anon alias Theo to communicate with both mafias and kill off enough of their targets to make myself valuable, so that when I was revealed, I wouldn't be instakilled. I do think my role was a little weak for a wolf, even one that wins at kingmaker - no means of gathering information, no reliable kill (if I hadn't managed to take control of AG's vig, I would have killed more people by fucking POST RESTRICTION than by anything else) and nothing to stop me from being instagibbed when I was outed. It was a cool role, I just think it needed some buffing. And I DID have fun with the game, so there's that.
Question: how was I found out as Theocracy? I never told anyone who I was and I never turned off my inspection blocker...