EVO 1 - Process Vote

[DougJustDoug]

Please read the OP, read the thread, and think carefully before voting. Moderators will not change votes for ANYONE, even supposed "mis-clicks".

There has been a bit of controversy at the start of this first EVO project. I've discussed this issue at length with Darkie, and we think a quick side poll would be helpful to determine how the community would like to proceed.

As many of you may be aware, Gormenghast recently opened a thread proposing to redo the first part of the EVO project and vote on the pokemon over again, with the specific purpose of including Camerupt in the voting options. At the start of the EVO project, he really had not fully considered the ramifications of his original votes. Gormenghast was a supporter of Farfetch'd in the beginning, but now feels that Farfetch'd is a horrible choice for the community. Since he was a cited factor in many other people's votes for Farfetch'd, he thinks he mistakenly has led the community to make a poor choice. Several members of the community support Gormenghast's new position, and think that we are making a mistake to proceed with Farfetch'd. They believe that now that much discussion has taken place within the actual voting threads, many voters have changed their minds. They think many voters would no longer support Farfetch'd in the first place. They think that many Houndoom voters were simply "anti-Farfetch'd" votes. And if Camerupt were present in the first poll, that it would now win.

On the other side, we have many people who feel like the polls were conducted cleanly and fairly and there is no reason, competitively or otherwise, to redo the poll. These people believe that the majority has spoken with their votes, and there is no reason to go back and re-vote on everything. They think that there will always be a dissenting opinion, and that Gormeghast and others are no exception. Opponents of the re-vote are people who voted for Farfetch'd and would do so again, or people who feel that overturning majority-voted results is a waste of time to the community, and possibly insulting to those that honestly tried to make an intelligent vote.


In my words, those are the two opposing opinions. I tried to fairly emphasize both arguments. If I did not properly represent the arguments of the two sides, then I encourage people to elaborate on the arguments in this thread.


NOTE:
The ONLY reason we are opening this side poll, is because this is the very first EVO project we have done. We will not be holding side polls every time someone has concerns about an in-progress project. But as it is the first EVO project, we think this is a special case.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'll go on the record as suggesting this for our official process.

After we have our nominations, we hold a poll to get the Top 5 (or 4, or whatever). Then we have a discussion about the niches those pokemon could fill in the metagame for 2 days or so. Then we begin our EVO vote between those choices, arguments already displayed so that we consciously know what we are voting for.

Just thought I would say my bit.

 

[gorm]

Hi. I just want to first assure you that i do not think that the only option here is camerupt, however i do think that it is the best option that i can think of, that i've made a good deal of arguments as to what kind of niche it would fill and why it would be useful in that roll (and ill discuss these later)

Ok, with that said, it's all in your hands. ersonally we are facing a farfechted evo which means its based on pretty much a "cool flying type" that a priori has no niche. i think the point of evo is being able to predict a great useful niche for a created pokemon, and having a sold framework to build on

here is why i think camerupt with better stats/moves/possible ability is a great choice for evo 1 form a metagame stance:
it stops a whole lot of offnesive threats while beating alot of defensive ones.
given a decent (celebi) amount of balanaced bulk and offense, this pokemon could stop zapdos by resisting it's stab/twave/heat wave and taking little dammeg frfrom a neutral hidden power.
it would act as a cheack to scizor taht can switch in without getting ohko by super power (like both heatran and a potential houndoom evo). it could also beat blissey (eq or boom) and skarm/forry/most steels (with fire obviously and eq for heatran) as well as stopping most rotom-H's. stallbreaker, and a cheak to alot of offensive threats.

sounds like exactly what the current Pt metagame needs, but that's not the point of this vote. the point of this vote is redo or stick with fetchd, a poke for whom i think EVO does not fit given out level of experience.


if you agree, vote redo to explore this, and potentially other interesting options

THANK you to doug and anyone else who decided to hear me out. to everyone saying i was too late and dont bother, well i guess im glad i fought for this so hard, regardless of the outcome.

 

[Hyra]

Don't see why Gorm is getting preferential treament but, oh well.

The best time to revise something is after you have done it once, not while you are still doing it (or else how will you know how the results turn out?).

 

[RBG]

Thank you Doug for doing this.

In My Opnion, evolving a pokemon takes much more work than creating a pokemon, and i believe there was not enough real discussion time or actual reasons people choose pokemon. I think examples of what Gorm posted as too why the pokemon should be evolved is what was needed, but not given.

If each pokemon could be given reasons like that, something like is done at the beginning of CAP, with the "theme" then this project, I believe this project will have better footing and be much better in the long run.

 

[gorm]

Don't see why Gorm is getting preferential treament but, oh well.

The best time to revise something is after you have done it once, not while you are still doing it (or else how will you know how the results turn out?).

i put alot of work into this goddam fight and if you disagree with me please say it to my face. you are disrespecting doug with this post saying he just "likes" me for some reason and didnt think think out himself and just gave me my way. if you think doug cares that little about cap to just *give someone preferential treatment with no basis* maybe you need to reevaluate your position here.

 

[cim]

It seems this poll is kind of opened just because someone with weight changed their mind. While they may have influenced others, I don't think it's worth throwing out a poll for. We already did this; because one user who provided the same rationale as other people wanted to use changed his mind means we need to restart? That seems a little iffy to me.

I have nothing against Gormenghast personally.

 

[gorm]

hey chris how about before you assume you read my arguemnts and give me and doug benefit of the doubt. we have had so much discussion over the past ten hours and you were present for NONE of them.

i have yet to hear a single decent argument against opening this for discussion
the fact that i fought so hard for it really makes me see this an an insult especailly because you were NOwhere in the original discussion

ps you want to vote farfetched because it *cool* that really has nothing to do with exploring the metagame *the mission statement of cap*

 

[Hyra]

No Gorm, its actually nothing against you, I just don't get why we are so willing to bend over backwards to someone relatively new to the project.

It's similar to someone from Serebii coming to Smogon and saying we should redo the Garchomp is Uber vote, you've seen what happens to those threads. It's a similar instance, just except you have a reputation.

My response to this no matter issue no matter who proposed it would have been to wait until after EVO 1 and then bring it up. It's not really an insult to you Gorm, it's just I feel we should wait.

Edit: When did I say you're ideas are not valid? I'm just saying its not the time to discuss them yet. They are perfectly valid.

 

[gorm]

i dont care if you have anything against me, youre saying my ideas arent valid/looked at because people follow me becauase im cool and youre saying doug followed me becasue im cool and you are really sidetracking this 100%.

you wanted to wait, i didnt want to waste time doing a cap in evo 01. im tired of going over this lol


seriosuly i don't want to post itt anymore but you guys are being disrespectful and nonsequiter by implying that i have wiehgt and that everyone just listens to me because im cool and badged

you can read my post and fucking disagree with points of it but dont trivialise all the effort ive put into this

 

[tennisace]

you wanted to wait, i didnt want to waste time doing a cap in evo 01. im tired of going over this lol

Except I designed it to be exactly like CAP so we're back to where we started.

 

[zfs]

I don't see why there's any objection to opening the issue up. People were talking about the democratic process, right? Well, if the majority wants the polls to stand, then I certainly won't fight it. That's the point, right?

 

[gorm]

Except I designed it to be exactly like CAP so we're back to where we started.

i am taking that design into question and so is this poll. i have criticizing the process since my 1st thread

 

[RBG]

Guys, can we please just admit for once that this is a new process and there "might" have been a better way to do this? Frankly, i saw no reason for most of the pokemon evolving, and I would like to see a competative write up for each pokemon nominated (like gorm did). It is because he did his reasoning so well that people started to have second thoughts.

The beginning of the CAP has a concept poll, where, instead of just naming concepts, people are required to explain why that concept is what is needed. This is what should have been done at the beginning, and is what I hope is done if we do start over.

 

[cim]

hey chris how about before you assume you read my arguemnts and give me and doug benefit of the doubt. we have had so much discussion over the past ten hours and you were present for NONE of them.

This single point could be said to any voter but I digress.

i have yet to hear a single decent argument against opening this for discussion
the fact that i fought so hard for it really makes me see this an an insult especailly because you were NOwhere in the original discussion

Uh, perhaps I didn't know where it was? Or rather, I had stuff to do today? I'd rather not have a character attack here.

Anyhow, my argument is that the point "most of the farfy votes were based on gorm's vote" probably doesn't matter because many people had farfy in mind from before.

ps you want to vote farfetched because it *cool* that really has nothing to do with exploring the metagame *the mission statement of cap*

Yeah it does. I want to see what happens to the metagame when a Fighting? / Flying type is introduced. You want to see what happens when a Fire / Ground type is introduced. While you have an argument on how it may be "good" for it, I don't see it as particularly relevant, the subjective good of a metagame.

Again I mean no insult, I just disagree.

Is CaP's purpose to make Pokémon that create a more balanced / healthy metagame? I thought it was more to learn about Pokémon setup in general and about how any Pokémon may affect the metagame.

 

[tennisace]

i am taking that design into question and so is this poll. i have criticizing the process since my 1st thread

And I've been telling you we should learn from our mistakes once its done.

Guys, can we please just admit for once that this is a new process and there "might" have been a better way to do this? Frankly, i saw no reason for most of the pokemon evolving, and I would like to see a competative write up for each pokemon nominated (like gorm did). It is because he did his reasoning so well that people started to have second thoughts.

I've admitted that multiple times. You have to fall when you're learning to walk. As for the Pokemon evolving, I admit it was a clusterfuck.

The beginning of the CAP has a concept poll, where, instead of just naming concepts, people are required to explain why that concept is what is needed. This is what should have been done at the beginning, and is what I hope is done if we do start over.

But most people didn't want that since when evolving Pokemon they usually have a defined concept.

 

[zfs]

Guys, can we please just admit for once that this is a new process and there "might" have been a better way to do this? Frankly, i saw no reason for most of the pokemon evolving, and I would like to see a competative write up for each pokemon nominated (like gorm did). It is because he did his reasoning so well that people started to have second thoughts.

The beginning of the CAP has a concept poll, where, instead of just naming concepts, people are required to explain why that concept is what is needed. This is what should have been done at the beginning, and is what I hope is done if we do start over.

Agreed. I think one of the problems was that people were voting with the assumption that the evolved pokemons would keep the same niche that they had before evolving, hence why there wasn't a need for in-depth analysis of each pokemon's individual case for evolution. Instead, now we get 50 different directions for where this Dux evo might go, be it a BPer or a fighting/flying physical sweeper or a steel/flying special tank....it sort of negates the process.

 

[RBG]

But most people didn't want that since when evolving Pokemon they usually have a defined concept.

I didn't mean exactly like that. I meant like each person who wants to evolve a pokemon writes out a post similar to gorm's saying why they think their pokemon should be evolved from a competitive standpoint.

 

[tennisace]

Agreed. I think one of the problems was that people were voting with the assumption that the evolved pokemons would keep the same niche that they had before evolving, hence why there wasn't a need for in-depth analysis of each pokemon's individual case for evolution. Instead, now we get 50 different directions for where this Dux evo might go, be it a BPer or a fighting/flying physical sweeper or a steel/flying special tank....it sort of negates the process.

I agree, we probably shouldn't have chosen Farfetch'd. In a normal CAP, we'd live with our mistake. Why should this be any different?

EDIT:

I didn't mean exactly like that. I meant like each person who wants to evolve a pokemon writes out a post similar to gorm's saying why they think their pokemon should be evolved from a competitive standpoint.

Which again, should have happened but almost nobody followed it and the mods weren't around to control it (No offense.)

 

[RBG]

I agree, we probably shouldn't have chosen Farfetch'd. In a normal CAP, we'd live with our mistake. Why should this be any different?

If you were at the convo the Doug, Darkie, Gorm, and I were having, doug said we were not too far in and that since this is the first time using this new process, that it would be reasonable to try this, since many people besides gorm had problems with how the first vote went.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Don't see why Gorm is getting preferential treament but, oh well.

The best time to revise something is after you have done it once, not while you are still doing it (or else how will you know how the results turn out?).

This.

Perhaps we common, semi-anonymous users must come to terms with the fact that some people on these forums simply have more sway when decisions are made and can not only potentially reverse the decisions of the majority but actually rally people to support them in doing so.

In all democratic elections OF COURSE there will be people unsatisfied with the process. The point of democracy is to have a decision despite the fact that part ofs the population are not in agreement. Do we want to open one of these polls every time (and only when :P) some prominent,. badge holding user feels the voting didn't go in his favor?

You have to understand how this may appear to an objective bystander.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Not that my input means much but

I hope by voting redo that doesn't mean Camerupt is automatically going to win. Hopefully other people will make arguments for other pokes like Gormenghast.

 

[gorm]

id like people to post reasons why thiey thing that farfetchd would be a good choice

ive only seen it referred to as "a mistake" for this process and if you are voting otherwise you obviously disagree.

Perhaps we common, semi-anonymous users must come to terms with the fact that some people on these forums simply have more sway when decisions are made and can not only potentially reverse the decisions of the majority but actually rally people to support them in doing so.

mabye my thread didnt get locked because im recognized

but you know what i worked for that too you are all pretending like this is just a tribute to how people like me as if i have done nothing but whine. stop talking about "sway" like it ahs ANYTHING to do with my _actual arguements for camperupt/redo_

I hope by voting redo that doesn't mean Camerupt is automatically going to win. Hopefully other people will make arguments for other pokes like Gormenghast.

Absolutely.

 

[billymills]

While a don't want farfetch'd as EVO 1, it did win and this post seems far too much like a second chance for something else. I think the eventual winner could be worse than farfetch'd and i wouldn't want that to set the tone of this project.

Maybe next time there should be a decide a pokemon discussion thread before the actual polls?

 

[zfs]

This.

Perhaps we common, semi-anonymous users must come to terms with the fact that some people on these forums simply have more sway when decisions are made and can not only potentially reverse the decisions of the majority but actually rally people to support them in doing so.

In all democratic elections OF COURSE there will be people unsatisfied with the process. The point of democracy is to have a decision despite the fact that part ofs the population are not in agreement. Do we want to open one of these polls every time (and only when :P) some prominent,. badge holding user feels the voting didn't go in his favor?

You have to understand how this may appear to an objective bystander.

I think this would be more poignant if Gorm didn't have a good argument; but he did, and it was an argument that a lot of people agreed with.

Besides, clout is a funny thing. I bet some of you "semi-anonymous" people have more clout than me nowadays, and I was one of the first to sign up for the forums.