EVO 1 - Process Vote

[Solstice]

I say we restart, This is my first CaP experience, so I dont know how the others went honestly, but from a logical standpoint, my reasoning is this.

Farfetch'd is not a Pokemon that NEEDS an evolution. Pokemon who can be used in UU without fail I believe don;t need an evolution, like Camerupt. While a Camerupt evolution would be interesting, I think a Pokemon that has promise and not the skills to be recognized needs to be given the EVO project. Like Corsola, Qwilfish, or Sableye. Castform or Spinda could even be considered, seeing as how CaP has never done a normal type.

Farfetch'd was a biased poll result because of the unaware circumstances of the voters. We need to consider the pros and cons of the Pokemon nominated through discussion before actually getting to a equal standpoint.

 

[Adonzo]

honeslty im not interested in another cap at all, that;s why im trying to make this process more than what cap is. i dont think im alone here either.

one really has wonder why you're here then. certainly the EVO project has drawn more outsiders as i honestly believe more people are interested in evolving pokes than creating them. but this is still the CAP forum. EVO is just a subgroup of it, an evolution of it even. but you can't just scrap CAP altogether. too much work has gone into it.

 

[Urza]

gorm, if you aren't interested in another CAP, why are you here? and that's not asked in an offensive way, i think your arguments have all been very well thought out, i'm just surprised to hear that come from someone who has made such a shocking splash, and really changed the way a lot of people are looking at CAP. i'd honestly like to know what you mean by that, and what you want to change CAP to. many people seemed to like the way it was going...

 

[gorm]

lol i want evo to be diff than cap thats teh only reason im putting so much work into trying to convince everyone. ive stated maybe with a lack of respect that i dnot really feel like the previous caps yielded anything all that relevant besides *a cool idea lets see what happens when we go through with it*

Farfetch'd is not a Pokemon that NEEDS an evolution. Pokemon who can be used in UU without fail I believe don;t need an evolution, like Camerupt. While a Camerupt evolution would be interesting, I think a Pokemon that has promise and not the skills to be recognized needs to be given the EVO project. Like Corsola, Qwilfish, or Sableye. Castform or Spinda could even be considered, seeing as how CaP has never done a normal type.

Farfetch'd was a biased poll result because of the unaware circumstances of the voters. We need to consider the pros and cons of the Pokemon nominated through discussion before actually getting to a equal standpoint.

the first paragraph you are pretty much saying that you want a *cooler* baby pokemon to evolve...spinda does pretty much nothing, youd have to make up its evo and even then... what does it do to Pt?

seeing as how CaP has never done a normal type.

its kind of a crappy type, especially offensively and its not great defensively minus bliss.. wither way this has nothing to do with anything.

I think a Pokemon that has promise and not the skills to be recognized needs to be given the EVO project. Like Corsola, Qwilfish, or Sableye.

what does this even mean? all these pokemon are pretty useable on the same level *UU with an adeptitude for tr/rd* but thats a whole new idea


the reason i htink working on an established framework is important is because it helps *ground* us and have a better idea of the function of the pokemon earlier on.

 

[Tenkishi2]

Well, actually. I'm still trying to understand what should we do. This is the first CAP debate i've witnessed. Overall, should we risk going forward with this, or restart and hope that we luck out.

Signed, Tenkishi

 

[Solstice]

I dont want a *cool* baby evolution. The thought of the stupid split Tauros-Miltank thing pisses me off. I mentioned Spinda because I think the Pokemon that seem to be forgotten need a mention in the discussion.

 

[the_artic_one]

I've got a good idea for how to prevent this sort of thing in the future. Basically it's a combination of the "Pokemon to be given an evolution discussion" we already have and the "concept discussion" from the CaP process.
Every submission should be in this form:

[B]<Name of Pokemon to be Evolved>:<Primary Role of evolution>[/B]
[B]Reasoning:[/B]<What basis does the pokemon have for being able to evolve 
into this role>

[B]Needs:[/B]<what the pokemon needs to be able to fill this role>

EX1:

[B]Farfetch'd: Physical sweeper
Reasoning:[/B]
A farfetch'd evolution would make an excellent physical sweeper, it already 
has great some great sweeping tools in it's arsenal such as swords dance 
and agility. Physical flying is a great attacking type for the OU environment
and most physical flyers that exist currently are BL or lower.

[B]Needs:[/B]
A better movepool, much higher stats (mostly speed and attack), and 
possibly a secondary typing that would provide a STAB that has good 
coverage combined with flying.

EX2:

[B]Farfetch'd: BP/Team Support[/B]
[B]Reasoning:[/B]
A farfetch'd evolution has potential to be an excellent baton passer, he 
already has access to baton pass as well as agility and swords dance. He 
would be especially dangerous as a baton passer since he could punish 
switch-ins with great support moves such as: knock off, toxic, and feather
dance (a very underused move in our metagame). He could even roost off 
damage and pass multiple times.

[B]Needs:[/B]
Better defensive stats and speed, a better secondary typing to provide 
more resists

Even though these two suggestions are using the same pokemon, they would both go on the poll (provided that they received enough support/TL digression).

This process encourages people to think (as well as vote competitively) and also shifts focus off what would be "cool" to evolve. In addition, it has the added benefit of splitting the "noob vote" since there could potentially be multiples of any given pokemon in the pokemon poll. Suddenly, the fanboy who wants to see luvdisc evolved must think about what kind of evolution he wants and how it would fit into the metagame.

 

[gorm]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42095&page=3

in this thread doesnt pretty much everyone agree with doug about NOT doing massive overhauls and yet your *process* somehow allowed that through and suddenly its ok because well learn from our mistakes?

that is incredibly complacent. we have not even started down your process *i cant even find this thing* but apparently choosing the pokemon we evolve is more important than decing what we want and whats possible based on current

if you start by choosing a pokemon camps are gonna divide withint the camps already. people want difftyping feched, sweeper fetchd, bulky fetched, utility fetchd, and its gonna be decided based on what? every dudes inner preference, but rarely is there really a discussion except a while after votes start. i had to present the idea of a niche already pretty much created simply by a typing/stat distribution/etc (READ : ESTABLISHED FRAMEWORK) as if it was me telling everyone they were wrong, when BOTH poll options were decidely worse than my suggestion, and that the fact that making a suggestion starting at taht deep a level was wrong when thats where we SHOULD be starting in order to have a reasonably clear goal in mind from the beginning it's always gonna be better for a project to be grounded in a framework that we didnt have to whip up from scract. instead we can focus on fitting it to its function and all the number crunching/design that ensues.


edit: i find myself agreeing with the artic one although i'd say my reasons for camerupt are a little more convincing imo, and that we need to limit how much were making from scracth.

this is not cap.

 

[beej]

This poll is a joke. If it was anybody other than gorm it would have been closed outright. I find it offensive that every Farfetch'd voter is simply being dismissed as a fanboy. I was against the duck, but the majority does not believe this is a waste and we shouldn't go against them simply because a few of us DO think it is. Your opinion isn't special here.

I would like to note that there are hundreds of voters yet very few people actually bother to come on the server. That's very telling.

 

[gorm]

If it was anybody other than gorm it would have been closed outright.

dont insult me.

I find it offensive that every Farfetch'd voter is simply being dismissed as a fanboy.[

in the worlds of tennis himself thats the apparent prupose of evo.

I was against the duck, but the majority does not believe this is a waste and we shouldn't go against them simply because a few of us DO think it is. Your opinion isn't special here.

i am changing minds as you can clearly see in the poll

I would like to note that there are hundreds of voters yet very few people actually bother to come on the server. That's very telling.

you have apathetic voters and no metagame

is this news to you? did you not know?

 

[Adonzo]

I've got a good idea for how to prevent this sort of thing in the future. Basically it's a combination of the "Pokemon to be given an evolution discussion" we already have and the "concept discussion" from the CaP process.

This process encourages people to think (as well as vote competitively) and also shifts focus off what would be "cool" to evolve. In addition, it has the added benefit of splitting the "noob vote" since there could potentially be multiples of any given pokemon in the pokemon poll. Suddenly, the fanboy who wants to see luvdisc evolved must think about what kind of evolution he wants and how it would fit into the metagame.

i also support this as an alternative to deck's proposal

 

[Darkflagrance]

dont insult me. in the worlds of tennis himself thats the apparent prupose of evo. i am changing minds as you can clearly see in the poll
you have apathetic voters and no metagame

is this news to you? did you not know?

Actually, if you only rally the former Houndoom fans who want another shot at something other than Farfetch'd and care very little for the process, and combine that with only a small shift in the preference of the population or even a small influx from outside CAP regulars, you can get a shift akin to what you call "changing minds".

There have indeed been posts from people who care nothing about the process but simply dislike Farfetch'd, which by itself is not grounds to restart the entire process.

Also, none of my concerns over the relationship between yout identity and the reception of your arguments have been personal by intent, but they are what they are: a legitimate concern that has not been disproved as such except by mere assertion.

 

[gorm]

i think most houndoom fans can agree that camerupt just does it better and id be glad do discuss with any who disagree.

There have indeed been posts from people who care nothing about the process but simply dislike Farfetch'd, which by itself is not grounds to restart the entire process.

uh i dislike fetchd for this project so obviously i dislike the process that allowed it to be picked -even after DJD prety much told you all EVO wasnt a full overhaul project-

 

[Brawley]

This poll is a joke. If it was anybody other than gorm it would have been closed outright. I find it offensive that every Farfetch'd voter is simply being dismissed as a fanboy. I was against the duck, but the majority does not believe this is a waste and we shouldn't go against them simply because a few of us DO think it is. Your opinion isn't special here.

I would like to note that there are hundreds of voters yet very few people actually bother to come on the server. That's very telling.

What the hell, I voted for the camerupt evo as it would benefit the metagame, and I Gorm did give good reasoning behind his proposal, nobody is making people vote for Gorm's option. >.>

 

[beej]

dont insult me.

Yeah that's really what I was doing there. If I wanted to insult you, I could've said something along the lines of "gorm is a shit". I didn't.

in the worlds of tennis himself thats the apparent prupose of evo.

Well then you're going against the fucking purpose of the project, aren't you?

i am changing minds as you can clearly see in the poll

Irrelevent. If the 2000 election was redone today, a lot more people would've voted for Gore.

you have apathetic voters and no metagame

is this news to you? did you not know?

If you really think we're worthless and don't have a metagame etc., why even vote in our polls? Are you trying to sabotage us? If you really want to improve the process there were many ways you could've gone about it, but instead you decided to stir up a shitstorm. I can't see anything other than strawman arguments here. If you're not just upset because Camerupt didn't get enough support, what is the basis of your argument, that people who voted for Farfetch'd are retarded? Well they outnumbered you, so more people don't think it's retarded than do. Once again, your opinion isn't special. You seem to believe it is because you demand the right to overturn the opinions of the majority because YOU think it's the right thing.

What the hell, I voted for the camerupt evo as it would benefit the metagame, and I Gorm did give good reasoning behind his proposal, nobody is making people vote for Gorm's option. >.>

Brawley I have nothing against you, but clearly the majority didn't agree with the prospect of a Camerupt evo. We will be upsetting a lot of people by overturning the results. It really does seem to me that a minority, mostly made up of people who don't come on the server, are valuing their opinions over the majority, which is wrong.

 

[Darkflagrance]

i think most houndoom fans can agree that camerupt just does it better and id be glad do discuss with any who disagree.

uh i dislike fetchd for this project so obviously i dislike the process that allowed it to be picked -even after DJD prety much told you all EVO wasnt a full overhaul project-

And this line of reasoning is irrelevant to what we are actually discussing with the poll, which is the process and whether or not it makes sense for a community to rethink itself based on the hurt feelings of a single user.

 

[Tenkishi2]

Well, I don't mean to go off-topic. But how about we put this as a vote.
Either A) we continue, B)Restart, or C)This voting is pointless and we should simply try to recreate the format for CAP and make it more simpler.
I don't know myself, but that's probably the only thing i can say for all this.

Signed, Tenkishi

 

[RBG]

I've got a good idea for how to prevent this sort of thing in the future. Basically it's a combination of the "Pokemon to be given an evolution discussion" we already have and the "concept discussion" from the CaP process.
Every submission should be in this form:

[B]<Name of Pokemon to be Evolved>:<Primary Role of evolution>[/B]
[B]Reasoning:[/B]<What basis does the pokemon have for being able to evolve 
into this role>

[B]Needs:[/B]<what the pokemon needs to be able to fill this role>

EX1:

[B]Farfetch'd: Physical sweeper
Reasoning:[/B]
A farfetch'd evolution would make an excellent physical sweeper, it already 
has great some great sweeping tools in it's arsenal such as swords dance 
and agility. Physical flying is a great attacking type for the OU environment
and most physical flyers that exist currently are BL or lower.

[B]Needs:[/B]
A better movepool, much higher stats (mostly speed and attack), and 
possibly a secondary typing that would provide a STAB that has good 
coverage combined with flying.

EX2:

[B]Farfetch'd: BP/Team Support[/B]
[B]Reasoning:[/B]
A farfetch'd evolution has potential to be an excellent baton passer, he 
already has access to baton pass as well as agility and swords dance. He 
would be especially dangerous as a baton passer since he could punish 
switch-ins with great support moves such as: knock off, toxic, and feather
dance (a very underused move in our metagame). He could even roost off 
damage and pass multiple times.

[B]Needs:[/B]
Better defensive stats and speed, a better secondary typing to provide 
more resists

Even though these two suggestions are using the same pokemon, they would both go on the poll (provided that they received enough support/TL digression).

This process encourages people to think (as well as vote competitively) and also shifts focus off what would be "cool" to evolve. In addition, it has the added benefit of splitting the "noob vote" since there could potentially be multiples of any given pokemon in the pokemon poll. Suddenly, the fanboy who wants to see luvdisc evolved must think about what kind of evolution he wants and how it would fit into the metagame.

This is EXACTLY what I meant!

 

[Adonzo]

Well, I don't mean to go off-topic. But how about we put this as a vote.
Either A) we continue, B)Restart, or C)This voting is pointless and we should simply try to recreate the format for CAP and make it more simpler.
I don't know myself, but that's probably the only thing i can say for all this.

Signed, Tenkishi

you might want to scroll to the top of your page, there may or may not be a poll there already

 

[gorm]

Yeah that's really what I was doing there. If I wanted to insult you, I could've said something along the lines of "gorm is a shit". I didn't.

you told me i was only considered by doug because i have clout no because my point was valid and it was. thats an insult.

Well then you're going against the fucking purpose of the project, aren't you?

i kind of am and im kind of trying to make it more than *cap with flavour* because thats a waste of everyones time.

Irrelevent. If the 2000 election was redone today, a lot more people would've voted for Gore.

that didnt happen, this is happening.

If you really think we're worthless and don't have a metagame etc., why even vote in our polls?

im interested in making EVO into more than what you have designed it to be, because i think you did a poor job planning it out

Are you trying to sabotage us?

yes and i have been succesful so far

If you really want to improve the process there were many ways you could've gone about it, but instead you decided to stir up a shitstorm.

i was low on time and i didnt back down. no one gave me a single reason to back down.

[quote I can't see anything other than strawman arguments here. If you're not just upset because Camerupt didn't get enough support, what is the basis of your argument, that people who voted for Farfetch'd are retarded?[/quote]
what? camerupt is a better idea for this project unless you just want to have *cap with flavour* which is not any different a project in metagame significance.

you're still inventing a niche and hoping the poke fills is and adapts well. its a haphazard process compared to a simple *evolve* upgrade

Well they outnumber you, so more people don't think it's retarded than do. Once again, your opinion isn't special. You seem to believe it is because you demand the right to overturn the opinions of the majority because YOU think it's the right thing.

redo is currently leading.

And this line of reasoning is irrelevant to what we are actually discussing with the poll, which is the process and whether or not it makes sense for a community to rethink itself based on the hurt feelings of a single user.

lol i am not fighting because of hurt feelings are you stupid? what would my feelings be hurt over?

 

[Urza]

seconding that sentiment RB...

this whole thing stinks right now. CAP is going to face one of these controversies one of these days and its going to splinter. something needs to be done to help keep things calmer, i feel like every CAP just gets more contentious, and eventually a bunch of people on one side or the other are gonna get pissed off enough to just abandon the project, which would really suck.

edit: and the fact that gorm says hes trying to sabotage the project and admits it, even if its in jest, REALLY makes this whole thing stink. it also makes a lot of his points very suspect, and diminishes his contribution even further.

 

[Adonzo]

if theres one thing i learned from the WoW forums its that shit-throwing arguments accomplish nothing besides getting everyone covered in shit. so could we please stop? i just showered =(

 

[Kamen Rider]

I think this has was suggested before in the EVO process thread, but perhaps we need to first vote on purpose of the evolution. The way I see it advocating an evolution has one of these purposses in mind.

1) The Niche pokemon-A pokemon that possess something unique about it, such as typing or ability, that could be interesting in the competitive metagame but is lacking in one or more area to make it OU material. The evolutions purpose would be to boost it to overcome its disadvantages and allow its unique abilites become relevant inthe metagame. Pokemon like Camperate and Houndoom fall into this catagory.

2) Overshadowed pokemon-When Pokemon have generally decent typing, movepool, and/or stats but its purpose is completly outclassed by another pokemon with a better typing, abilites or some other specialty that regulates the rest to BL or lower. This evolution would in many was be the opposite of the Niche, and its purpose is to give the overshadowed pokemon a distinct advantage to give it a reason to be used in OU. Pokemon like Quagsire and Espeon fall into this catagory.

3) Addressing the metagame- Rather than looking at the pokemon 1st, this is looking at the OU metagame and trying to influence, either by advocating underused typing or strategies and creating an evolution to address it. The only real difference between this and regular CaP is it tries to use prexisting pokemon that almost fill the role instead of making a new one from scratch. This normally also address one of the above 2 objectives but it just a bonus rather than the goal.

4) The Magicarp Effect-Some pokemon are so terrible on so many levels that even if they have something minor special about them, it would take a complete overhaul to the degree of Magikarp to Gryadous to make them OU material. These are pretty much CaPs in EVO clothing. Farfetch falls under this catagory.

I think if we choose this poll a head of time it would make the pokemon discussion a lot more focused since we know what we are looking for when wading through the pool of potential pokemon to evolve.

Perhaps it would also address issues with pokemon that fall under reason #4. If their is enough support to do a #4, we replace the next EVO or CaP with what we know will be a CaP/EVO hybrid and would provide the opportunity to satisfy people who support the Spindas, Unknowns, Farfetch's ect. ect.

Edit: Down the line this would also be the best place to vote on doing Split and item Evolutions since we would wont it to coincide with the purpose.

 

[Darkflagrance]

you told me i was only considered by doug because i have clout no because my point was valid and it was. thats an insult.

The only reason why there is even such a movement is because people are willing to let their old hard feelings get in the way of principle and because Doug gave you an opening to snare up the project. No matter who wins, the fact that matters proceeded to this point already signals a major compromise of the project, and the best we can do is cut our losses and simply proceed with what we have.

So congrats Gorm. You sabotaged the EVO project. Now go home and enjoy gloating while we fix the damage.

By analyzing the factors behind why this sabotage of the EVO project is being allowed to continue, I do not believe I am delivering any insults except where they are perceived (and, if the whole illegality of this side poll is taken into account, rightly so.)


Also, the process is indeed in need of revamps so that this doesn't happen again. True, we should have figured out the purpose of the pokemon first, but that does not call for a complete redo of the procedure on this scale.

 

[darkie]

Regardless of what you think of this, I do think we jumped the gun on this project.

Not only was the process not perfectly solidified, very few actually looked at it.