Ok before this turns into an argument lets actually talk about why sticky web is good or not. In response infamy's points, every playstyle has weaknesses, it's the ability to play around them that makes them good. All 3 of those mons do check webs, but webs can play around them without too much difficulty
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Examples and Viability Ranking of Team Types
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
yes, but currently the checks to webs are extremely common. just saying, "every playstyle has weaknesses," makes no sense at all. that's pretty much a given. the problem with webs is that they are extremely easy to check and that many of the checks are really common at the moment, and thus it has a bad matchup against a lot of the metagame. its literally the definition of b rank. can it beat its checks? of course. but my bp lordsquad can beat all its checks too and im not lobbying for it to s. also who took lc swiss seriously lol
lol you are really my friend starmaster tutee, also gastly,fletch and pawn was always there and they dont have a fuck change(and webs won with them ), snivy is not strong enough(also you can use a flying type as a wallbreaker I used doduo a ton of times on de Bunnelby spot), your bad teambuilding skills dont make a playstyle bad
if you are talking about my friend ggggd, he is not doing awful he is 0-2 but if pokemon was a fair game he would probably be 2-0
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-205081114
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-205081114
and I cant see a Brazilian doing awful lol
How do you explain that all top 16 are all on the top players of this comunity and who told you were actually good lol, all the ones who "stopped giving a fuck" were the ones that went eliminated, that is true, is easy to blame the tournament itself
nothing else to add, completely aids
webs are not only this archetype, it have a ton of other good variations and when it get explored they won games and they still won, sweep won his last game with webs, we didnt said that it is unbeatable, but limiting a whole playstyle to this?, I think it is to much like I said, you just need to play smart with thinks like Snivy as good webs are good teams even without webs on the field, people that are dumb and just run stupid slowmons rofl
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While it's checks are extremely common, it's answers to those checks are extremely solid. Saying that it has a bad matchup vs a lot of the meta game is completely false, as it goes even or better with most all of the meta. Saying that by slapping pawniard or something on your team you have a positive matchup vs webs is kind of absurd.
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Yeah I am sorry throwing you under the bus soz :/. But as a user you can explain its issues better so it good you posted n-n
We should move sun up to S tbh.
Edit so not a shitty one liner: Sun is a dominating force in the meta, with LO Vulpix getting a 2HKO on about 90% of the meta (SpDef Munchlax, FF users, SpDef Archen, and other niche stuff like Growlithe) and Chlorophyll users being excellent sweepers alongside it. Bellsprout packs a decent punch and hits most of the metagame hard. Archen is the typical bird check, and powerhouses like Houndour can be seen abusing the sun. Definitely a top threat in our current meta.
Edit so not a shitty one liner: Sun is a dominating force in the meta, with LO Vulpix getting a 2HKO on about 90% of the meta (SpDef Munchlax, FF users, SpDef Archen, and other niche stuff like Growlithe) and Chlorophyll users being excellent sweepers alongside it. Bellsprout packs a decent punch and hits most of the metagame hard. Archen is the typical bird check, and powerhouses like Houndour can be seen abusing the sun. Definitely a top threat in our current meta.
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I feel like Sun is a situation where a core actually operates better than a full team simply because you aren't finding your entire team weak to particular Pokemon. Munchlax and Fletchling for example can wall and sweep through a decent portion of common Sun-related Pokemon. Hippo can completely shut down the Sun aspect and the presence of other Grass and Water-types in the meta forces too many awkward 50/50s that will reduce your Sun turns. With that in mind Sun can still tear teams apart because of the sheer amount of wallbreakers present, including Vulpix, Bellsprout, Ponyta, and even Houndour and Bulbasaur are great in Sun. I personally feel like it still fits in A Rank, possibly A+ if it were to exist here.
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I love how you can't make a good argument so you're just turning to a bunch of personal attacks to cover that up ROFL
also "sweep won his last game with webs" yeah and sweep admits that he haxed me the fuck out of that game lol
Webs are another tool that I feel like shouldn't be built around, but simply included to make lives easier. I never understood the point of dedicated webs teams after my original try with them simply because there are too many Pokemon that get around them and we have multiple methods of getting rid of them. I know that my milkshakes brings all the boys...ALL of em, aka Superpowerdude was a big proponent of using webs on typical offense or balance teams because it just makes your job easier. By having your webs like that you can still function normally if you can't get them off, and if you do keep them up, well it's webs, you'll have an easier time.
webs are not only this archetype, it have a ton of other good variations and when it get explored they won games and they still won, sweep won his last game with webs, we didnt said that it is unbeatable, but limiting a whole playstyle to this?, I think it is to much like I said, you just need to play smart with thinks like Snivy as good webs are good teams even without webs on the field
Do you honestly think you would beat sweep with no hax? with how the game was looking? also I dont want to discuss this personal
I just say that people say shit about a tour just because they played badly and lost. also QuoteCS congratz on the swiss
I respect your oppinion about webs being B rank, but honestly, it is like some players that want chroldrought suspected lol
My Hero
I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore because you seem intent on 1) saying incredibly stupid things, like that Sweep would've beat me with no hax, and 2) turning this into a personal argument by insulting me in various ways. Just stop, no one's going to respect you if you do that.
Ok gl feeling insulted for no reason lol
being the tutee for such good player like starmaster is an insult? Starmaster is friend to me i dont feel like that, you also remember me him a ton lol
if you cant cover that stuff when building webs, so you dont know anything about it lol
THE END
if you cant cover that stuff when building webs, so you dont know anything about it lol
THE END
I would definitely keep sun in A, it's a strong playstyle but both S ranks go at least even with it, birdspam is about even, sticky web has a great matchup, etc. it simply doesn't stand out from other A ranks enough to be moved to S tbh
Edit: what I'd like to see and what would be convenient is a matchup chart for team archetypes with explanations, and how the playstyle can deal with the matchups. I'll write up voltturn if wanted.
Edit: what I'd like to see and what would be convenient is a matchup chart for team archetypes with explanations, and how the playstyle can deal with the matchups. I'll write up voltturn if wanted.
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Yeah dedicated webs suck when Fletch and Pawn two of the biggest offensive threats in the tier don't give a shit about it, among other pokes in general though it forces the opponents to try to get rid of it, it makes choice scarf pokes fairly useless and let's you win speed ties and these perks of webs are something all teams can benefit from, not just the typical slow bulky sweepers people like to slap on webs. People who have really tried to get webs to work will probably agree guys like BA, gggd, Rowan.
Also I should prolly change my name back now and Quote nice badge :)
Also I should prolly change my name back now and Quote nice badge :)
I've decided to make a few changes to the team types included.
First off, I feel like the metagame has evolved so that stall with or without hazards is similar enough, except for specific archetypes like Toxic Spikes stall and possibly quickstall, so I have combined stall with hazards/stall without hazards. After discussions with quote, abs and a few others and thinking it through for a while, I have come to agree that what I had in mind for the archetype shouldn't really be considered stall, so I've changed that to semistall; Toxic Spikes stall and quickstall stay as stall archetypes because I feel that they fit the definition closely enough to still be considered so. Bulky Balance is too similar to semistall so I've removed that as well.
On Tazz's suggestion, I also made a archetype match-up chart, which is included in the OP; thanks to zf/qu/aerow for helping out. Keep in mind that I only went through the chart once as I was making it and didn't actually check it, so there are more likely than not inaccuracies and/or outright mistakes. Feel free to discuss the chart and anything about it that you disagree with. You can of course use the chart to discuss the movement of the viability placement of the team types; I haven't updated the placements in accordance to the chart, so there will be inaccuracies there. Remember that you should also take into account the prominence of the archetypes beaten or lost to; being able to effectively take on Hail Offense is much less valuable than beating Bulky Offense, for example.
First off, I feel like the metagame has evolved so that stall with or without hazards is similar enough, except for specific archetypes like Toxic Spikes stall and possibly quickstall, so I have combined stall with hazards/stall without hazards. After discussions with quote, abs and a few others and thinking it through for a while, I have come to agree that what I had in mind for the archetype shouldn't really be considered stall, so I've changed that to semistall; Toxic Spikes stall and quickstall stay as stall archetypes because I feel that they fit the definition closely enough to still be considered so. Bulky Balance is too similar to semistall so I've removed that as well.
On Tazz's suggestion, I also made a archetype match-up chart, which is included in the OP; thanks to zf/qu/aerow for helping out. Keep in mind that I only went through the chart once as I was making it and didn't actually check it, so there are more likely than not inaccuracies and/or outright mistakes. Feel free to discuss the chart and anything about it that you disagree with. You can of course use the chart to discuss the movement of the viability placement of the team types; I haven't updated the placements in accordance to the chart, so there will be inaccuracies there. Remember that you should also take into account the prominence of the archetypes beaten or lost to; being able to effectively take on Hail Offense is much less valuable than beating Bulky Offense, for example.
I'm unsure if this is a certainity. You and I have both played sun and Sprout runs thought a lot of Voltturn teams, except for mons with Fletch but Fletch isn't by any means a required mon on the volt-turn archtype. They're about neutral - I'd give Sun the edge if Vturn doesn't pack Fletch, and the edge to vturn if Fletch is there.tazz said:
You're right that how good the matchup is depends if fletch is on the team, but even without fletch it's at least even because larvesta + mag and chinch is really tough for sun to handle when sun isn't up. Fletchling is very common on voltturn, and so is diglett, both of which give voltturn the edge. When she was rampaging through the ladder I would play Lucy on a daily basis, and in order to beat my team she would have to outplay me. I'll post a replay later that illustrates it.
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcsuspecttest-215537448
While I did outplay the opponent here, it does illustrate all the tools voltturn has to beat sun
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lcsuspecttest-215537448
While I did outplay the opponent here, it does illustrate all the tools voltturn has to beat sun
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I want to nominate Sun for S.
Sun is probably the plastyle who can be the more considered as broken. Suns have a incredible match up against all teams who are not
Rain, Sun or QuickPass. Stalls are exploded, Offense destroyed, Balance crushed.
I played a sun, and really, Each match I lost, the causes of the lost were always :
-either haxx
-either I misplayed and I lose Sprout/Vulpix early in the game.
Fletchling isn't that a problem for a sun. Once you set the rocks and if you keep archen, he is going to suicide hiself on the rocks. Spinning is incredibly hard against a sun, and even defogging, because if the sun is good and keep a good pressure, you must sacrify at leas one mon to defog/spin. I don't joke.
Vullaby can't even switch on Bellsprout if sr are set. He can just check it, and for the same reason, he has huge difficulties to heal him, because he leave the momentum, who can be letal against HO well built. Munchlax can be problematic, but sleep powder + spam solar beam isn't that useless. And you have just to wait that munch is weakened.
196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (30 - 40%) -- 59.8% chance to 3HKO
Sun is probably the plastyle who can be the more considered as broken. Suns have a incredible match up against all teams who are not
Rain, Sun or QuickPass. Stalls are exploded, Offense destroyed, Balance crushed.
I played a sun, and really, Each match I lost, the causes of the lost were always :
-either haxx
-either I misplayed and I lose Sprout/Vulpix early in the game.
Fletchling isn't that a problem for a sun. Once you set the rocks and if you keep archen, he is going to suicide hiself on the rocks. Spinning is incredibly hard against a sun, and even defogging, because if the sun is good and keep a good pressure, you must sacrify at leas one mon to defog/spin. I don't joke.
Vullaby can't even switch on Bellsprout if sr are set. He can just check it, and for the same reason, he has huge difficulties to heal him, because he leave the momentum, who can be letal against HO well built. Munchlax can be problematic, but sleep powder + spam solar beam isn't that useless. And you have just to wait that munch is weakened.
196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 9-12 (30 - 40%) -- 59.8% chance to 3HKO
Sun is a great playstyle, but it's not S. I've played Lucy and other sun users dozens of times and use it all the time, but it's never seemed overpowering. Sure, if a teams not prepared for it it will be easy, but to say it blasts apart offense balance and stall is completely false. It also doesn't have nearly as good matchups as other playstyles, losing to most of S and A. All playstyles have ways to beat it, and it's not really overpowering at all.
Well I saw your replay, and really, it doesn't prove anything.
Probably there is some mistakes in this game.
EQ was useless turn 11. Archen's switch was a bad idea, imo he needed to sacrify one mon, or take a risk like switch at least vulpix on a wow.
Here, he just lose his sure fletch switch in, then he has just checks, who is basically pretty difficult.
His team has huge troubles against ponyta and larvesta once archen is gone, that's why play with him and sacrify a BJ wasn't imo a good thing.
Keep with Snubbul turn 16 was also bad imo, morning sun was p obvious, and he was in troubles, switch on sprout was an possible idea in order to change the game.
Then, Larvesta has a free Flare Blitz who is really powerful. Once again, he decides to switch on foo, and sprout was an idea.
I think probably that the player who have the sun doesn't take enough risks in this game. Suns, like all offense playstyles, requires risks.
I don't know if his team has rocks, but if he doesn't have, well it can explain maybe a part of the game. Sturdy, Fletchling, Fire Types, Vullaby... For me rocks are almost a must have in a sun, they are most useful than in all any others teams. However I admits that EndureJuice magne make harder the jobs of suns once sleep clause is activated. But just imagine with rocks the same match. Larvesta can't come, fletch can be in troubles, EndureJuice can't switch on spout's weather ball and has even troubles to deal with bellsprout. Not including stealth rocks in the teambuilding is probably a mistake if he did.
And well, I have won a lot of matches with sun against very good players, it doesn't shows that the playstyle is broken, as you can't say "sun isn't s" with one replay.
"but it's never seemed overpowering." Probably, but is the misdrea era, i never had problem with, and he was S, to take a random exemple. Maybe I was too optimist with Offense and Stall, but really, you can't say that sun loses against a lot of playstyles, bc that's not true. Bellsprout is a thing who can 2HKO like all the metagame or almost, and OHKO a lot of things in the current metagame, like a lot of stallmons (Slowpoke/Foongus/Ferro/Spritz) and let sleeping a lot of others, without counting offense mons who are almost all OHKO and outspeed.
Probably there is some mistakes in this game.
EQ was useless turn 11. Archen's switch was a bad idea, imo he needed to sacrify one mon, or take a risk like switch at least vulpix on a wow.
Here, he just lose his sure fletch switch in, then he has just checks, who is basically pretty difficult.
His team has huge troubles against ponyta and larvesta once archen is gone, that's why play with him and sacrify a BJ wasn't imo a good thing.
Keep with Snubbul turn 16 was also bad imo, morning sun was p obvious, and he was in troubles, switch on sprout was an possible idea in order to change the game.
Then, Larvesta has a free Flare Blitz who is really powerful. Once again, he decides to switch on foo, and sprout was an idea.
I think probably that the player who have the sun doesn't take enough risks in this game. Suns, like all offense playstyles, requires risks.
I don't know if his team has rocks, but if he doesn't have, well it can explain maybe a part of the game. Sturdy, Fletchling, Fire Types, Vullaby... For me rocks are almost a must have in a sun, they are most useful than in all any others teams. However I admits that EndureJuice magne make harder the jobs of suns once sleep clause is activated. But just imagine with rocks the same match. Larvesta can't come, fletch can be in troubles, EndureJuice can't switch on spout's weather ball and has even troubles to deal with bellsprout. Not including stealth rocks in the teambuilding is probably a mistake if he did.
And well, I have won a lot of matches with sun against very good players, it doesn't shows that the playstyle is broken, as you can't say "sun isn't s" with one replay.
"but it's never seemed overpowering." Probably, but is the misdrea era, i never had problem with, and he was S, to take a random exemple. Maybe I was too optimist with Offense and Stall, but really, you can't say that sun loses against a lot of playstyles, bc that's not true. Bellsprout is a thing who can 2HKO like all the metagame or almost, and OHKO a lot of things in the current metagame, like a lot of stallmons (Slowpoke/Foongus/Ferro/Spritz) and let sleeping a lot of others, without counting offense mons who are almost all OHKO and outspeed.
that replay was a seperate convo not pertaining to this, but although I did outplay him it does show that VoltTurn has all the tools it needs to beat sun.
Semistall has both hippo and vulla to check sun
eleskit smashes it
birdspam has at least even
waterspam is positive for sun
I've won many a game vs good players with BP, doesn't make it good
it simply does not have the matchups to make it S.