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Exploring the Glitchmon Metagame

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Theorymon, Sep 13, 2011.

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  1. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
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    To make a long story short, this thread has been development for months, and only now have I had the time to finish it! To participate in this bizarre metagame, just hop on the Pokemon Showdown! ladder!

    Introduction

    In the Smogon community, bans are an important part of our metagames. We spent years on building a process just to figure out which things to ban in the Overused and Underused metagames. We have Little Cup, a metagame that’s based around banning Pokemon that are evolved. Even Ubers does not escape the importance of bans, because Moody ended up being banned, and clauses such as Evasion, Species, OHKO, and Sleep Clause are still important parts of the metagame.

    A common misconception most people have is that clauses are needed for an enjoyable game, thinking that a metagame with no clauses will mean that you can mindlessly use Spore and getting lucky with Sheer Cold to win. While these moves certainly big factors in such a metagame, not only do all of them have match changing flaws, they are also not needed for many teams to work the best they can! What really makes a metagame without any bans insanely intriguing is the mimic glitch from the early copies of the Japanese Diamond and Pearl. If a Pokemon has Mimic, Metronome, Transform, Copycat, or Assist in generation 4, it can learn every single move in generation 4 plus one generation 5 move via Sketch! This gigantic movepool upgrade to 408 Pokemon makes this metagame radically different from any other metagame in generation 5!

    Sadly, despite being the “purest” form of Pokemon, the metagame hasn’t been explored much because of the somewhat of a pain in the ass way of getting to play it (Thats being fixed though!) and the stigma of having no bans whatsoever. This thread aims to change that, and to organize a group effort into exploring the Glitchmon metagame! We will do this by battling each other, posting sets, ideas, and other such things so we can understand this crazy and unexplored metagame! Before you get started though, please read the rules!

    Rules

    1. LEGALITY IS VERY IMPORTANT! SETS THAT ARE ILLEGAL MAY BE DELETED! A good rule of thumb to prevent this easy mistake is to look up what learns Mimic, Assist, Copycat, Metronome, and Transform in gens 3 and 4. Also note that unless the Pokemon learns it naturally, you can only have one gen 5 move due to needing Sketch for it. Gen 5 abilities are illegal with the mimic glitch as well. Finally, note that if a Pokemon from gen 3 doesn’t have a pre evo and needs mimic from the gen 3 tutor to do the glitch, then it won’t be able to have a gen 4 ability. For example, No Guard Machop with Sheer Cold and Scrappy Miltank with Rapid Spin are illegal, but No Guard Machoke with Sheer Cold and Skill Link Cloyster with Bone Rush are legal!

    2. DO NOT MAKE ANY KIND OF PROPOSAL FOR A BAN! The whole point of this metagame is for it to be Pokemon at its purest, so that means no bans! The only reason a ban should EVER be suggested is if its for a game crashing glitch.

    3. Please don’t whine about how “broken” something is. If you don’t like this metagame, then just don’t post in the thread, because this thread is focused on developing the metagame, NOT whining about it!

    4. PLEASE actually test the sets you propose, I don’t want this to become a dumping ground for silly ideas that no one will test!

    5. While dreamworld doesn’t have too much of an effect on this metagame, it is still noticeable enough that you must mention if your set to test is for dream world. This is mostly because of Chandelure and Ditto.

    The metagame so far

    Here, we’ll discuss the current metagame. Note that since the metagame is still VERY young, it could dramatically change later!

    Spore and the lack of Sleep Clause

    The first thing most people think of for this metagame is “LOL SPAM SPORE AND WIN!” As it turns out, things are not so simple. While Spore is certainly a good move, most teams are so insanely prepared for it that it becomes a high risk, high reward move. For example, Most sweepers will have either a Lum berry or a Chesto berry. Since almost anything can use Shell Smash, a lot of Pokemon will actually turn the tables on a Spore attempt, and sweep you instead! Again, this doesn’t mean Spore is bad, as it can still shut down nasty Pokemon like Machoke who might not expect a random Spore. At the moment, Spore is particularly good on Sturdy Pokemon such as Magnezone, as they can shut down either shut down Machoke and set up, or get rid of an annoying Lum or Chesto Berries on the switch from Machoke (just watch out for Magic Coat!). Spore is also good on Pokemon that only need two moves to have good coverage, such as Groudon and Gengar.


    The top 5 threats

    These are the top 5 threats of this metagame so far. If you want to make a Glitchmons team, you MUST take these threats into account! Not doing so will often result in failure!

    [​IMG]
    Machoke @ Evolite
    Trait: No Guard
    IVs: 0 Spe
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Sheer Cold
    - DynamicPunch / Gastro Acid
    - Gastro Acid / Magic Coat

    Machoke is one of the most fearsome and influential threats in the entire metagame that MUST be prepared for in some form! The execution here is simple: set up Trick Room, and then destroy teams that have lost their Sturdy Pokemon with a never missing Sheer Cold. Thanks to Machoke’s lackluster Speed, there isn’t much that will outspeed it under Trick Room. Dynamic Punch is mainly here for Magnezone, the most common sturdy Pokemon. Gastro Acid is great for catching sturdy Pokemon like Skarmory on the switch, potentially forcing the opposing team to lose one Pokemon if that’s their only Sturdy Pokemon. Magic Coat is there in case you predict a Spore, a risky move, but this can be very game changing!

    Part of what makes Machoke so fearsome is its surprising bulk thanks to Evolite. To give you a picture on how bulky Machoke is, even a +2 Life Orbed Adamant Groudon Earthquake will only OHKO Machoke 41% of the time after Stealth Rock damage! In fact, with this ev spread, Machoke is as physically bulky as an Impish Metagross with maximum HP and Defense, and almost as specially bulky as a maximum HP Reuniclus. This bulk lets Machoke set Trick Room up against physical foes that lack Sheer Cold, and also means that Machoke will rarely get sniped by the large amount of priority in this metagame. This isn't normally an amazing achievement for an evolite user, but unlike other evolite users, Machoke is able to OHKO anything that can get hit by Sheer Cold, making Machoke an unmatched combination of bulk and power!

    Machoke does have two flaws though: its so fearsome that people will over prepare for it by putting Sheer Cold or Spore on Pokemon just for it! Because of this, make sure you play carefully with Machoke. Machoke is especially deadly on Trick Room teams, since then it doesn't have to risk facing over prepared Pokemon as much! The second flaw is that Machoke's Special Defense, while decent with evolite, leaves a lot to be desired for when facing very strong special attackers. Although unboosted neutral Special Attacks will rarely KO Machoke, Machoke can't set up on extremely powerful special attackers such as Kyogre without taking a huge amount of damage, unless using a specially defensive spread. While a specially defensive Machoke can be a nasty surprise for people who attempt to deal with Machoke via strong special attacks, it becomes more vulnerable to priority. Despite these flaws, Machoke is still a huge force in this metagame that must always be prepared for!

    [​IMG]
    Ursaring @ Toxic Orb / Flame Orb
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Fake Out
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - V-create / Facade
    - Mach Punch / Shadow Sneak / Low Kick

    Despite possibly being the most common Pokemon in Glitchmons, Ursaring tends to confuse people who are new to this metagame, as at first glance, most people don't get the point of Ursaring. However, Ursaring is such a huge and influential threat that it's the reason Mewtwo and Rayquaza are very rare in this metagame! The reason for Ursaring's dominance in this metagame is because it may be the best priority abuser in the game! Fake Out may seem weak, but its extremely important to this set. One use of Fake Out allows Ursaring to activate Toxic Orb or Flame Orb, not only making Ursaring immune to sleep, but also powering up its already monstrous 130 base attack by 50% thanks to Guts. After Guts is activated, Guts boosted STAB Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed coming from 130 base attack makes Ursaring one hell of a revenge killer. Remember when I said that Rayquaza and Mewtwo are rare because of Ursaring? That's because Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed will actually KO both of them unless they make heavy defensive investments! Even Groudon has to be careful, because a Shell Smashed Groudon will take 90% minimum from Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed! Fake Out is also handy for basicly inflicting free damage, which may not seem like much, but the metagame is so fast paced that even a small amount of damage can change the game! Ursaring is part of the reason why Life Orb is uncommon in this metagame. With Ursaring's priority always around the corner, the recoil from Life Orb can be very dangerous! Another intresting thing to note about Ursaring is that it may be the most common abuser of the lack of species clause at the moment. With Shell Smashers being such huge threats, many teams opt to carry 2 Ursaring because of its useful revenge killing utility.

    Because Ursaring causes so many switches due to its priority abuse, it has another very nasty tool to punish people trying to wear it down: V-create. In the sun, V-create is Ursaring's strongest attack. To give you a picture of its power, it deals 89-100% to max HP Groudon! To make this move even more appealing, Trick Room is a dangerous strategy in this metagame, and Ursaring's slow Speed and V-create make it very hard to defeat under Trick Room! For teams that have Kyogre, you may prefer Facade, which still deals a massive amount of damage to even Pokemon that resist it. Finally, the last move is mostly filler. Mach Punch is there to hit Magnezone and Tyranitar harder, Shadow Sneak allows Ursaring to revenge Gengar, and Low Kick allows Ursaring to hit Rock-types that may attempt to switch into it. Something that should also be noted is Ursaring's EV spread. Maxing defense on an offensive Pokemon may seem strange, but its very important for Ursaring. This is because priority is very common in this metagame, and the max Defense lets Ursaring take it as well as it possibly can while still maximizing its Attack. This may not seem like much, but Ursaring can actually survive stuff like +2 ExtremeSpeeds from a lum Groudon, and while it does a ton of damage, max Defense lets you possibly catch stuff like that with their pants down!

    Like Machoke, Usraring is not without it's flaws. Ursaring's biggest problem is residual damage. With Toxic Orb or Flame Orb wearing it down. This means that Ursaring always is always on a timer, and people WILL take advantage of this! Ursaring also isn't exactly that bulky. When its not using priority attacks, it risks being OHKOed by stuff like V-create. Because of these factors, Ursaring doesn't usually last too long on the battlefield. Despite these issues, Ursaring is one of the biggest threats in the mimic streetpokemon metagame that must ALWAYS be accounted for!

    [​IMG]
    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - V-create
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Sheer Cold / Spore

    Groudon @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Shell Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Spore / Sheer Cold
    - Sacred Fire / ExtremeSpeed / Stone Edge

    Groudon really hit the jackpot in this metagame. Unlike most Ubers, Groudon wasn't nerfed in this metagame, it got boosted! This is due to two very threatening sets, V-create and Shell Smash Groudon. Something to note is that because Groudon is so common in this metagame, Sun is actually the dominant weather here!

    Groudon may not get STAB on V-create, but thanks to Drought, it becomes a 270 base power move, FAR stronger than Groudon's actual STAB! This coming off of base 150 Attack is very frightening! Groudon's other big selling point is that awesome 140 base Defense, which allows it to take Ursaring ExtremeSpeeds and smash it with V-create. Thanks to Groudon's bulk and fire power, it'll cause a lot of switchs, making it a great user of Stealth Rock. For the last move, you have a lot of options. Sheer Cold and Spore are for Machoke, Power Whip is to hit Kyogre harder, and ExtremeSpeed is nice for extra priority. Feel free to expariment with the last two slots, you may find something awesome! Another nice thing about this set its an excellent Pokemon to use on Trick Room teams. Groudon's sun makes V-create way more scary under Trick Room conditions, and Groudon can carry an Iron Ball to underspeed Machoke!

    Groudon's other set focuses more on sweeping than punching holes in teams. After a Shell Smash, Groudon is very hard to stop! +2 Earthquake smashes most offensive mons, except for Machoke. Because of this, Groudon must carry a move to deal with Machoke. Spore is usually the best option here. With this, not only do you shut down most Machoke, but you can also set up on Pokemon that have lost their lum berry! If your team has serious problems with Machoke, Sheer Cold can be a better option. The last slot can be a bit tricky. With ExtremeSpeed, you can prevent Ursaring from destroying you if Ursaring is in the KO range of ExtremeSpeed, and its always handy to have some extra priority. If you are worried about the rare Skarmory or Balloon Steel-types, Sacred Fire is a nice option thats actually as strong as Earthquake. Finally, if you want to have almost flawless coverage, you can use Stone Edge.

    [​IMG]
    Machamp@ Choice Scarf
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Sheer Cold
    - DynamicPunch
    - Trick
    - Shift Gear / V-create

    Machoke may be one of the biggest threats in the metagame, but that doesn't mean that Machamp is outclassed at all. In fact, Machamp is still a huge threat it just plays a different role than Machoke!

    Because Machamp is speedier than Machoke, most Machamp sets equip a Choice Scarf. Machamp isn't nearly as bulky as Machoke, but the immedite speed Choice Scarf provides should never be underestimated. Even with that sluggish 55 base Speed, Machamp is still able to outspeed even base 105 Speed Pokemon. Since Choice Scarf is otherwise rare in mimic Street Pokemon, Machamp can threaten to easily destroy anything that's slower than it with no need to set up! Dynamic Punch is still here to deal with Magnezone, while Trick is great for cripling other sturdy Pokemon that may attempt to switch in. The last moveslot is filler, Shift Gear if you want to attempt a sweep after Tricking, or V-create if you want a powerful move to use when you are unsure what the opponent is going to switch in. Feel free to toy with the last two moveslots, there really isn't a standard for Choice Scarf Machamp beyond the first two moves!

    Choice Scarf isn't the only thing Machamp can do, but its the most explored. Machamp is notable for being able to equip an Iron Ball, and score an unexpected KO on Machoke under Trick Room. You can also use a lum berry to defeat Spore, a common way of dealing with Machoke. Just be warned, Machamp's bulk isn't nearly as good as Machoke's! Machamp may be also able to use some sort of Speed boosting set, but I have never tested this. User Espyowner has tested such a set however, so expect to see him post details about that!

    [​IMG]
    Magnezone @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Shell Smash
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Beam / Weather Ball
    - Spore / Sheer Cold

    Magnezone @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    IVs: 0 Spd
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Tail Glow
    - Thunderbolt
    - Weather Ball / Ice Beam
    - Trick Room

    I'm sure this will cause some head scratching, but Magnezone is a very important Pokemon in Mimic Street Pokemon at the moment, and it's all because of Sturdy! With Machoke and Machamp being huge threats, having a Pokemon with sturdy is highly recommended. While Dynamic Punch may 2HKO Magnezone, it can switch into Sheer Cold, outspeed both Machoke and non Scarfed Machamp, and threaten to set up on them via Spore or use Sheer Cold. Sturdy's boost this generation is also very nice for Magnezone, and is a very good reason to carry a Stealth Rock user. For example, if Stealth Rock isn't up, Shell Smash Groudon will actually lose to a full HP Magnezone without Bonemerang!

    The ability to sometimes check Machoke and Machamp is more of a bonus though, because it's still an excellent Shell Smasher. Thanks to its Steel typing, Ursaring will not be able to easily revenge kill a healthy Magnezone without Mach Punch (be warned though, two Ursaring are going to destroy it), and Magnezone can really hurt stuff with +2 Thunderbolts and Ice Beams! Weather Ball is also an option, because it will hit opposing Magnezone harder, and is actually more powerful than Thunderbolt. Just note that max HP Groudon has a small chance of living through Weather Ball (deals 88.4% - 104% after a Shell Smash).

    Trick Room teams also like to use Magnezone, because its one of the few sweepers under Trick Room that doesn't need to carry Iron Ball to defeat Machoke! Tail Glow and Trick Room on the same set may seem excessive, but +3 Thunderbolts really hurt, and this set is to be used on a team where many other Pokemon can set up Trick Room.

    Just a note, Magnezone is not the only viable sturdy user. However, Magnezone is the most common sturdy Pokemon and is also the only one with an established set. As the metagame evolves, there may be more common sturdy Pokemon to watch out for!

    Less common but dangerous threats

    [​IMG]
    Kyogre @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Surf / Weather Ball
    - Grass Knot
    - Fire Blast / Power Gem

    Kyogre isn't nearly as common in this metagame as it is in Ubers, and that's all because of the massive amount of priority (especially from Ursaring). That doesn't mean Kyogre is bad though, because its still a threat that you should keep your eye on! Kyogre's biggest selling point by far is Drizzle. Thanks to Drizzle and resisting Fire-type attacks, it's easily the best switch into V-creates in the game!

    Because Kyogre's 100 / 90 Defense isn't too good, it's forced to max out its HP and invest in a lot of Defense to ensure that Ursaring won't eat it alive. Thanks to the rain though, Kyogre can get away with the bulky ev spread while still being able to cause a lot of damage! Quiver Dance is the prefered meathod of setting up. With 60 Speed evs, Kyogre will outspeed Choice Scarf Machamp after a Quiver Dance, and smash it with either a +1 Weather Ball or a +1 Surf. Note that Kyogre has two different attacking set ups here. If you don't care about accuracy, the best attacks to use are Surf (or Hydro Pump if you have balls!), Grass Knot, and Fire Blast. Fire Blast may seem really silly on Kyogre, but it's important because of how fast paced this metagame is. Without it, Groudon can set up the sun to ruin your chances of sweeping! If you don't like Fire Blast's miss chance, then Weather Ball / Grass Knot / Power Gem (for Fire mons in the sun lol) is your best bet.

    If you want, you can use White Herb + Shell Smash to make Kyogre a more threatening sweeper. Just be warned, you only have one shot or else priority is going to maul it!

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly / Naive Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Shell Smash
    - Iron Head
    - Sacred Fire / Earthquake
    - Power Whip / Zen Headbutt / Psycho Boost

    Oh boy, if you thought Choice Scarf Jirachi was annoying, wait till you see this thing in action! After one Shell Smash, Jirachi is actually pretty powerful. Iron Head can actually 2HKO maximum HP Groudon after Stealth Rock damage! With that power and 60% chance of flinching AND the lack of priority weakness, Jirachi can be a real pain in the ass to stop! Sacred Fire is also pretty annoying, because with it, Jirachi will always get a burn when it hits!

    Physical Jirachi's biggest problem is the fact that you have to choose between hitting Groudon and Kyogre hard or Machoke hard. While Zen Headbutt can destroy Machoke after an Iron Head flinch, its not going to help much with Kyogre, and it forces you to flinch Groudon to death. Because of this, I have started to use a Naive nature and Twisted Spoon to OHKO Groudon with a +2 Psycho Boost after Stealth Rock damage, and OHKO Machoke without the boost. I actually prefer this set, but I haven't seen any other Jirachi try this yet!

    [​IMG]
    Gengar @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Tail Glow/Shell Smash
    - Spore
    - Judgment
    - Vacuum Wave / Aura Sphere

    Gengar may be frail as hell, but it has one trick up it's sleeve that makes it a HUGE threat: immunity to ExtremeSpeed. Because of this, Gengar is actually one of the most threatening Special sweepers in the game if it can set up!

    After one Tail Glow, Gengar's Spooky Plate boosted Judgment (so it can be a ghost type Judgment) is EXTREMELY powerful. To give you a picture of it's power, +3 Judgment OHKOs both Kyogre and Magnezone after Stealth Rock damage! To make it even more threatening, Gengar's +3 Vacuum Wave can destroy Ursaring after Stealth Rock, and thanks to that Ghost typing, Gengar doesn't have to worry about Fake Out and ExtremeSpeed's higher priority! Although currently somewhat uncommon, anything faster than Gengar will destroy it, so you can opt to use Shell Smash and Aura Sphere instead for a less powerful but still threatening sweeper!

    Gengar's biggest problem lies in actually setting up. Gengar's defenses really suck, so you either have to rely on Sporeing Pokemon that aren't carrying Lum Berry or pairing it with Wobbuffet. This is probably why Gengar isn't as common as it was in the beginning of the metagame. Despite this, I recommend preparing for Gengar, because if it gets a turn to set up, it's very difficult to stop!

    [​IMG]
    Slaking @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Truant
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Skill Swap
    - Swords Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - V-create

    Slaking has always been a disapointing Pokemon. It's stats are excellent, but Traunt is such a terrible ability that it's rarely used. Mimic Street Pokemon is a far different story, as thanks to Skill Swap, Slaking can finally be used to its fullest potential!

    After a Skill Swap, Slaking will have time to set up a Swords Dance, and with that 160 base attack, ExtremeSpeed will deal a ton of damage! Even if the opponent switches into Skill Swap, they will only have once chance to attack before Traunt kicks in. This means if the opponent is foolish enough to stay in after that, you get 2 Swords Dances! Slaking is also good at V-creating Pokemon on the switch, having a V-create thats even more powerful than Groudon's.

    Slaking does have one really annoying flaw though. It is possibly the easiest Pokemon to metagame ever. Any Pokemon with Protect will beat this set one on one, it hates the rare Arceus or Shedinja, and worst of all, it actually has trouble with other Slaking because Skill Swap! Regardless, don't let these flaws make you think Slaking is easy to prepare for. It's not very viable to put Protect on every Pokemon, and Slaking has a knack for being really mean to face for unprepared teams!

    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar is last on the list, because unlike the other Pokemon, Tyranitar doesn't actually have an established set yet! I'm not basing Tyranitar's usefulness on papermon though, because we know it works! We just haven't found it's best set yet. The main reasons Tyranitar is good in this metagame are resisting ExtremeSpeed , V-create, and most of all, Sand Stream. With Sand Stream, it can really screw up Ursaring, giving it more residual damage to worry about! It even makes Excadrill one of the few 5th generation Pokemon viable in this metagame!

    Some good sets to test would be Shell Smash, some sort of priority abuser with Fake Out (to wear stuff down with Sandstream), and a Trick Roomer.
  2. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
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    This post is reserved for new threats we find over the course of testing. However this thread just started... so before I add that stuff, here are some suggestions to test if you're stuck!

    -With Machoke and Machamp being very nasty, testing out some viable Sturdy Pokemon sounds like a good idea!

    -Test out Pokemon that don't actually get the glitch! Yes, there are some Pokemon that still work despite this. Some good examples of mons we know that work without the glitch are Wobbuffet, Dialga, Giratina-O, some Arceus fromes, and Excadrill (more on these mons later!)

    -Like most metagames, Stealth Rock is pretty important. However, this metagame can get so fast paced that it can be hard to set up. That's sorta scary with stuff like Sturdymons and even the rare Shedinja being around, so we should find some more reliable Stealth Rockers! Testing the other hazards doesn't hurt either!

    -Trick Room is a very deadly strategy in this game with stuff like Machoke. What are some other good Trick Roomers?

    -Like OU and Ubers, weather is still important in Mimic Street Pokemon. I think we should test some more weather abusers such as Swift Swimmers to see if they still work!

    Genny Edit:
    Hi this is Genny saying I'm watching this thread like a hawk
  3. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident zombie
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I think running a rain team wouldn't be a bad idea but machoke can screw it up completely with one trick room. Hey, you never know though; Machoke could have a run for its money.
  4. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Since I think that every team will have to use multiple Sturdy Pokés it's worthwhile to mention Sturdy Metal Burst Donphan. Also I will bring up the idea of anti-Sheer Cold Pokés such as No Guard Machamp with Substitute, Spore, Focus Punch, and something like Acrobatics or Zen Headbutt depending on what it's trying to counter

    Another set I thought of was max Speed Ninjask with Spore, Substitute, Baton Pass, and a choice of Tail Glow, Shell Smash, Minimize, so on and so forth
  5. Lady Salamence

    Lady Salamence
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    Theorymon, how common is Machoke/Machamp as a lead?

    If it isnt common, I'm theorymonning Deoxys-D with Minimize, Baton Pass, move that boosts a stat, and Substitute could possibly give Sub+Minimize+??? to a pokemon like Machoke/champ, Ursaring, or whatever.

    Or does BP suck in street?
  6. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
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    Baton Pass doesn't suck at all. However in my experience, evasion boosting moves aren't really that great because they can be so luck dependent that if you actually get hit, you can easily lose.

    Also Zacheus, Ninjask's biggest issue is that it gets sniped by priority really easily.You have to rely on Minimize saving you, which can be risky. I'm not totally ruling Ninjask out, but its going to need someway to handle priority from stuff like Ursaring.

    Also, something to note is that people don't usually run more than one Machoke / Machamp because they are so overprepared for. You don't usually need more than one sturdymon either, you can get away with one sturdymon and faster stuff with Sheer Cold.

    Edit: Lady Salamence, I don't see too many people lead with Machoke / Machamp.
  7. sax king

    sax king

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    Transform Blissey. Think about it. Transform copies every stat except for HP. Imagine transforming into an Ursaring. Now you have a super strong Ursaring, but with 700 health. Or better yet, imagine transforming into a Shell Smash Groudon. If you're thinking defensively, try transforming into a skarmory to make a super-skarm. If you can land a Shedinja transformation, its gg.
  8. Joel

    Joel

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    Noting a portion of rule #1.

    Gen 3 Pokes that get Mimic via tutor in-game can legally have their abilities change to "ability 2" (i.e: No Guard Machamp, Magic Guard Clefable, Technician Scizor).

    In Gen 3, the games all had two abilities written into their coding "ability 1", and "ability 2" for all Pokes, even if in Gen 3 ability 1, and ability 2 were the same.

    If the Poke had ability 2, albeit having only one ability in Gen 3, but said Poke was evoloved on a Gen 4 retail cart, it does obtain it's Gen 4 ability 2.

    So no matter how broken it might be, a Jolly, Choice Scarf, No Guard Machamp with Sheer Cold is still within a retail carts programing possibilities via the Mimic/Rage glitch.

    You just needed to wait to evolve them until Gen 4.

    Just sayin'......
  9. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast LOL STAFF FAG
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    A list of Pokemon that get Sturdy.

    The fastest overall is Sawk (>_>) with 85 Speed and the fastest pre-GenV is a three way tie at 70 between Magneton, Skarmory and... Onix. There you go everybody.
  10. eriados

    eriados

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    Onix has base 70 speed... that just blew my mind.

    But now that I remember, he was rather quick in Silver.
  11. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
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    Hooray for Theorymon finally stopping teasing us...

    This was a very interesting read. It's nice to see quite a few uncommon Pokemon get a huge boost in this metagame.

    I really think Swift Swimmers might have a niche in this metagame, like THeorymon said.
  12. Box

    Box

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    This will be so insanely fun! Totally gonna play this!
  13. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    This has actually been seen before, and yeah without residual damage, its a pain in the ass because of Endeavor. Sadly, Camouflage isn't implemented right on PO atm. Ingame, it would now change you into a Ground-type, but PO still has it as changing to normal, which is how it was last gen.

    I also intend on testing Reflect Type Shedinja later. First I need to make a Shedinja team though. I haven't tested it too much, but again when used right its a real pain in the ass when hazards aren't up.
  14. StallMandibuzz

    StallMandibuzz

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    Hehe, this metagame looks so completely epic. ;D Sheer Cold Machoke and Smash Passing Groudons are always lots of fun, haha. :D
  15. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    Needs moar Heart Swap in the threatlist btw. With the amount of Tail Glows, Quiver Dances and Shell Smashes running around in the tier, this could actually be rather important.

    Here's one I thought of:

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew/Focus Sash
    Naive
    104 Atk/152 SpA/252 Spe

    --Heart Swap
    --Psystrike/ExtremeSpeed
    --Spacial Rend/Dragon Pulse
    --Aura Sphere/Vacuum Wave
  16. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    Heart Swap is certainly a good move, but I don't think Latias is going to make the best use of it due to that rather bleh defense, especially with Ursaring being so common. I'm sure we can think of better users for it!

    Edit: However, I do wonder about an extremely defensive Latias's viability in Dream World. Sorta like how Kyogre plays. I'll do some calcs later and see where that goes...
  17. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Remember that you aren't allowed Soul Dew. The only rule in streetmons is that you can't use what you can't obtain (without hacking).

    Anyway, nice thread Theorymon. 6 months well spent!

    I bring you Dugtrio:

    Dugtrio @ Leftovers / Lum Berry / White Herb / Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Spore
    - Shell Smash
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass

    Analysis (open)
    This set is the epitome of a high-risk, high-reward strategy. Obviously, the potential rewards are great: if you get it in on the right pokemon, Dugtrio is virtually guaranteed to pass +6 in Attack, Special Attack, and Speed, as well as a Substitute, which may or may not be broken on the switch. The strategy is simple: get in on something slower that lacks lum berry and lacks a priority move, and then use Spore. Next turn, use Sub, which acts as security against the opponent waking up early. If the opponent does wake up, simply repeat, hoping that next time they will not. Note that while Trick Room may prove annoying if used on the wake-up turn, if you play correctly there is still no chance of being hit, and you will still likely be able to pass multiple boosts. If they do not wake up on that turn, use Shell Smash until they do. Repeat until Duggy gets to +6 with a sub up, or cannot make more subs. Then pass to any one of the very scary sweepers in streetmons, and win. If you don't win at this point you are doing something seriously wrong.

    Anyway, onto the details of the set. Max Speed is obvious, letting Duggy spore on as many opponents as possible. Timid to lower confusion damage because you have no attacks. Priority moves are physical (ok vacuum wave, but that sucks) so 252 def evs are added – duggy just might survive one. The item is a tricky choice. Leftovers allows more subs, hopefully ensuring that more shell smashes can be passed. Lum lets Duggy switch into Spore (without it you will have to come in after a KO). Focus Sash allows Dugtrio an alternative route, letting it pass one shell smash even in the face of a lum berry. White Herb lets you pass fewer defense drops.

    However, it is generally best to have at least one recipient with a white herb, since this negates all of the defense drops passed! Yes, all of them. The best recipients include Groudon, Metagross, and Jirachi, but there are a whole host of things that can sweep with so many boosts. You must be sure to have SR up, or use a move such as Bonemerang or Gear Grind though, so that you can get past sturdy pokemon. Much more difficult is getting Duggy out in the first place, and facing the correct pokemon. There are many inventive ways to engineer this, but just to get you started, you should be looking to trap stuff without priority moves (e.g Magnezone, Kyogre, Machoke, some Groudon), and you should try to burn up any lum berry they might have first. For example, you might use a Machoke with DynamicPunch and Magic Coat; this will attract Magnezone, burn up any lum it might have, and force it to kill you or risk being swept. You can then switch in Dugtrio and win. Other interesting ideas include using Machamp, or using Trick users to remove Lum Berry.


    Some more interesting Pokemon to try out:

    • Golem: One of the better sturdy Pokemon, with great defensive typing for streetmons and a very good defense stat. Works reasonably well with a TR, SR support, or shell smash set, walling Machoke and Ursaring to hell and back. EDIT: just gave this a try and it's really pretty good.
    • Kabutops/Omastar/Carracosta: Water/Rock has to be one the best possible typings in streetmons, giving resistance to Fake Out/ExtremeSpeed and V-Create. Kabutops and Omastar are probably the best swift swimmers available. Carracosta gets sturdy and learns shell smash naturally, so it might be viable even without the glitch. The real problem is actually its abysmal Speed rather than its movepool.
    • Metagross: This thing has better attack and defense, but is otherwise fairly similar to Jirachi.
    • Scizor: Tech Bullet Punch is still more powerful than non-STAB ExtremeSpeed, but more importantly this thing has great Attack and Defense, and resistance to priority. Interestingly, it also gets 150 BP Gear Grind! Sadly it's illegal with Shell Smash.
    • Heatran: Yes, this is another Pokemon that doesn't get the glitch, but flash fire is what really sets it apart, along with great defenses and resistance to normal. In the sun, you can easily switch into V-Create, and then use a ridiculously powerful Fire Blast (or Eruption on TR teams) to KO virtually anything. With Balloon you can wall Groudon too, but as a general rule I would recommend lum berry. This guy does face a bit of competition from Arcanine though.
    • Aerodactyl: Good Speed, resistance to priority, and ridiculously powerful recoil moves like Brave Bird and Head Smash make this quite scary. Unfortunately it is too frail to use Shell Smash, but you can get away with Coil or Swords Dance. CB works OK too.
    • Ho-Oh: Really bulky and extremely powerful in the Sun. Need I say more?
    Posting your own sets:

    • I just want to echo what Theorymon said about testing stuff before you post it, or at least playing a little before you post. Sweepers that gets KOed by Ursaring using Fake Out + Espeed are an absolute no-no. I can't make that clear enough. Generally, you need to have a Pokemon with high defense and/or resistance/immunity to normal. You might be able to get away with it if your Pokemon has its own powerful Extremespeed too, but be warned that you will still be hit by Fake Out, and if you run into a resistant priority user you could be in trouble.
    • Also, as a general rule, you should be using a lum berry as your item barring exceptional circumstances. You really don't want to get on the wrong end of a spore user such as the above Dugtrio. Lum berry is quite possibly the only thing keeping spore from running rampant.
    edit @ Theorymon: could you put the advanced connection information for the server up there somewhere?
  18. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Life is like a hurricane
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    AMAZING thread, Theorymon! LUVDISC

    I will definitely try this in a few days.

    PS Wouldn't Machoke benefit from a RestTalk set? It makes him effectively immune to Spore, which everyone uses to counter him, and also gives him recovery. I can imagine the set being something like Rest / Sleep Talk / Sheer Cold / Guillotine or DynamicPunch.
  19. Box

    Box

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    Somehow the idea of RestTalk Machoke with two OHKO moves makes me warm inside.

    Also, viability of Pranksters like Sableye? Prankster Murkrow with Eviolite has some decent bulk (like it matters). Well, maybe SubPerish wouldn't work so great in this metagame.
  20. Darkvirus

    Darkvirus

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    sounds like this could be a fun challage i may have to give this metagame a try at some point
  21. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    Sadly, without the glitch, I doubt they are too viable.

    Something funny to note though is that on the old server, legalities weren't implemented right, so people actually used stuff like Spore Sabelye. tbh it made Sabeleye the best Pokemon lol.

    HOWEVER, while I doubt Murkrow and Sabeleye are viable, I have once seen one Prankster used to decent effect: Tornadus. The reason being that when Tornadus suicided with Tail Wind, the momentum shift is huge considering how fast paced this metagame gets. Granted, I bet Ursaring can maul Tornadus, so I think Tornadus may need either Chilan, Protect, or a new EV spread. Either way, despite not getting the glitch, I do think Tornadus could be worth testing.

    Also, about Sleep Talk Machoke. Im not 100% sure about its viability, but I will admit that I remember a Sleep Talk Machoke owning me once because one of my teams relied on Spore to beat Machoke after the sturdymon was dead. It has a hard time with stuff with Mangezone obviously, but taking advantage of sleep like that can be pretty devastating! The other issue though is that sometimes Sleep Talk will not chose what you want it to choose (also, I think a recovery move like Milk Drink is better than Rest in this case, you don't want to rely on Sleep Talk when you don't have to!). I also once faced an odd Machoke that had Sleep Talk and 3 OHKO moves. Again, walled by sturdymons, but I have to admit, it certainly turns the whole "Spore Machoke" strategy against you! Also, I doubt this Machoke would be able to sweep like the Trick Roomer, but its possible that the ability to screw over a bunch of Spore users could make it a viable set anyways.

    While I was typing this, I thought of a new idea to possibly test. Since a lot of sturdymons are Steel-types, I may try out some sort of Magnet Pull Magnezone just to screw them over. One issue though is that trapping sturdymons that aren't steel isn't going to be easy...
  22. Box

    Box

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    How would Hail work out in a metagame teeming with Sturdymon? No Pokemon with Sturdy are immune to Hail, so Machoke would be able to destroy all opposition.

    Dual Screen on a Prankster with Sash > Abomasnow with Sash uses Trick Room > standard Machoke sweeps
  23. sax king

    sax king

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    Keep in mind Aerodactyl can now use Head Smash and Brave bird, as well as SD/Shell Smash/Gear Shift. It also has a nice resistance to ESpeed, even though it doesn't really have much in the defensive department

    Also, shell smash/Shift Gear Marowak anyone?
  24. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Sturdy completely negates OHKO moves like Sheer Cold regardless of the level of health. Therefore adding 6% to each Sturdy pokemon will not much help Machoke. Also, I don't know what can do "dual screen on a prankster". No Prankster Pokemon has access to the glitch. Abomasnow will also hold you team back due to its poor typing and stats. Surely Stealth Rock would be better anyway?

    I mentioned Aero in my previous post. It is pretty good, but it is too frail to use shell smash effectively (it gets taken out by Ursaring). Shift Gear is also pretty pointless with Aero's Speed; by using it you are denying yourself another gen 5 move (e.g V-Create). Better stick to Swords Dance/Coil/Dragon Dance.

    Shift Gear or even Shell Smash Marowak could work, but being forced to run Thick Club leaves you very vulnerable to Sleep moves and Sacred Fire burns. It's probably best to use Groudon, which is faster and bulkier, if a little less powerful.
  25. Theorymon

    Theorymon ☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄☄
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    FYI, Abomasnow also doesn't get the glitch. Please look up the movepools of Pokemon before you suggest them. If the Pokemon does not learn Mimic, Copycat, Assist, Transform, or Metronome in gens 3 or 4, they don't get the glitch!
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