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Extreme Hyper Offense (Gen 5 Standard)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by domeface, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. domeface

    domeface

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Messages:
    387
    This team didn't take very long to put together, and yet it's been one of my most successful on the ladder. However, I'm reaching a point where my wins and losses are roughly even, so I'm looking for some help to improve my win record and climb futher up the ladder.

    Team Building Process (open)
    I wanted to try a really, really offensive team of relatively similar sweepers,so they each weaken opposing walls and let each other sweep, etc. I decided to go for all special sweepers. But first, all offensive pokemon appreciate entry hazards to weaken the opposition a bit - and who better for this role than the most reliable suicide lead around:

    [​IMG]
    The one and only Deoxys-S! With his unmatched speed he will always get up SR, unless maced with an MH Taunter (but they can be neutered with Magic Coat), and unless facing a priority user or Tyranitar, usually at least one layer of Spikes, too. Perfect for my team.
    Next, I went for a special attacker I've had success with in previous teams. With access to Nasty Plot, perfect two-move coverage and priority, he is a potent sweeper:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Nasty Plot Lucario was added to the team. After an NP there are few things he can't OHKO with the right move, and even things that outspeed him can often be dispatched with Vacuum Wave. The perfect choice for this team.
    After Lucario, I wanted to try out what looked on paper to be a very powerful sweeper, with acces to one of the best boosting moves around:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Volcarona! With absolutely excellent stat distribution and Butterfly Dance, he is an extremely powerful sweeper. Add to this the decent coverage of his STAB moves, the very useful Flame Dance, and the very helpful Flame Body ability, and you've got one dangerous sweeper on your hands.
    However, Volcarona does unfortunately have an absolutely crippling 4x Stealth Rock weakness, and it's vulnerable to both types of Spikes. To combat this, I needed a Rapid Spinner. Inkeeping with the specially-offensive theme of the team, there was only one option:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Starmie is by far the most offensive specially-based Rapid Spinner, so he was the logical choice. His excellent SE coverage granted by access to the BoltBeam combo in combination with the neutral coverage of his STAB Water moves give him a wide range of uses outside of Rapid Spinning, too.
    At this point, I racked by brain for powerful special sweepers. Almost immediately I remembered the pokemon with a lot of hype and noise about him, with many even calling him broken. Having never tried his flagship set, I couldn't resist adding him to the team:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Choice Specs Latios! His STAB, Specs-boosted Draco Meteor off his phenominal 130 base SpA absolutely maims almost every pokemon in the metagame, bar very bulky Steel-types and the two pink blobs. In addition to this, his luring of Steel-types opens up excellent setup opportunities for both Lucario and Volcarona.
    Finally, I wanted a simple sweeper; no setup, but no Choice item. And ideally a way to get around Chansey and Blissey. The perfect choice soon became clear:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    SubSplit Gengar. I've not used Gengar much in the past, and never tried his SubSplit set, but when better to try it out than on this team? I chose the SubSplit set as I'd heard it could beat Blissey (and her younger sibling), something very valuble to my all-special team.

    (this space will be used for changes suggested by you)


    So currently, the team's lineup looks like this:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Now, let's take a closer look at the team!


    ~Speedy, Stealthy and Spikey~

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-S@Focus Sash
    Timid | Pressure
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Stealth Rock
    -Spikes
    -Magic Coat
    -Ice Beam

    The classic suicide lead. His speed means 99% of the time he gets SR up, unless I get outpredicted and fail to Magic Coat an MH Taunt. Thanks to Focus Sash, barring priority or Tyranitar (Hippowdon/Abomosnow don't sash him IIRC), he'll usually get up at least one layer of Spikes, too. If my opponent switches around or can't do enough damage in time, I often get up more layers. Magic Coat is useful for reflecting status moves, Taunt, and opposing hazard-setup attempts (though these aren't a major problem thanks to Starmie). Ice Beam was originally just a filler move, but I've found it extraordinarily useful - it cleanly OHKOs all Gliscor leads I've faced, as well as the occasional Landorus or Garchomp. It would be good for dealing with Dragonite, whose T-wave SubRoost set irritates the shit out of this team, but MultiScale screws this plan over, so I usually go for Magic Coat and hope he T-Waves instead of using Substitute.

    ~A Nasty Aura~

    [​IMG]
    Lucario@Life Orb
    Modest | Steadfast
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Nasty Plot
    -Aura Sphere
    -Shadow Ball
    -Vacuum Wave

    Ah, Nasty Plot Lucario. He generally comes out around midgame, once his problem pokemon (mainly faster pokemon who can take a +2 Vacuum Wave and threaten a KO) have been eliminated or weakened. He can also do an effective lategame sweep if necessary. With his useful resistances and threatening attacks, he finds many opportunities to set up and sweep (Ferrothorn, for example, is complete setup fodder for Lucario). The moves are fairly self-explanatory - Aura Sphere for STAB, Shadow Ball for perfect coverage, Vacuum Wave for priority (I don't use HP Ice because being able to deal with a variety of faster threats (of which there are many thanks to Luke's rather mediocre speed) is far more useful than being able to KO Glicor; unless I manage to predict the switchin, it doesn't help against the likes of Garchomp or Landorus as they outspeed and KO before I can use it, so it's pretty much just Gliscor). I use Steadfast over Inner Focus as if I get flinched, I'll usually then be able to outspeed and KO the opposing pokemon, and often sweep the whole team now that I've got a Scarf boost without being locked in.

    ~Star Of The Show~
    (Okay not really, but it's the obvious pun)

    [​IMG]
    Starmie@Life Orb
    Timid | Natural Cure
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Hydro Pump
    -Thunderbolt
    -Ice Beam
    -Rapid Spin

    Life Orb Starmie, with Rapid Spin in the last slot. I use Hydro Pump over Surf to somewhat make up for Starmie's rather mediocre base 100 SpA. BoltBeam provides Starmie's famed SE coverage, and in tandem with Hydro Pump it hits everything in the game for at least neutral (bar Shedinja). Rapid Spin is mandatory so Volcarona can function properly. I chose to use Offensive Starmie with Rapid Spin rather than proper Rapid Spin Starmie because the latter seems rather dead-weight outside of spinning, with no offensive investment or item meaning attacks just aren't powerful enough. This way, once I've spun rocks, I can still use Starmie's good speed and excellent coverage to sweep.

    ~Death From The Sky~

    [​IMG]
    Latios@Choice Specs
    Timid | Levitate
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Draco Meteor
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Surf
    -HP Fire

    I cannot believe this is the first time I've used this Latios set. If I've eliminated and/or weakened all the opposing Steel-types, Tyranitars and pink blobs, Draco Meteor is basically a 90% accurate Sheer Cold. Latios generally comes in after something has died to kill whatever my opponent decides is their least important pokemon (or even better, the pokemon they think is their best remaining Latios check; if it ain't one of the aforemention pokemon, it's dying regardless). Surf is used to 2HKO Tyranitar switchins (I'm not sure if SpD Tar can survive or not, but I've 2HKOed all the ones I've come across). HP Fire is for Scizor and Ferrothorn, but I'm having doubts as to its usefulness - it's risky to use it on a predicted switch, and if I come in on them it's basically broadcasting that I'm running the move. It also means I lose the speed tie versus Gengar and other Latios, so I'm thinking of swapping it out in favour of Psycho Shock, Trick or Thunderbolt. Thoughts?

    ~A Bit Of Ghostly S&M~
    [​IMG]
    Gengar@Life Orb
    Timid | Levitate
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Substitute
    -Pain Split
    -Shadow Ball
    -Focus Blast

    SubSplit Gengar. I use this a general-purpose sweeper / revenge killer. SubSplit is supposed to beat Blissey, but I don't really find it to work that well; it generally just ends up as a PP stall until I'm out of subs. Substitute is useful for general scouting purposes, blocking status, easing prediction etc etc, but Pain Split seems situational at best, since Gengar needs to have a Sub up on the turn Split is used to avoid just being OHKO'd after he uses it. Maybe I'm just using it wrong, but it seems rather 'meh'; would a SubDisable or just Sub + 3 Attacks set work better? Gengar is probably my least valuble team member, and I often find myself sacking him to a Latios' DM or just using as general death fodder to allow Lucario or Volcarona to set up. However, he is still useful just for general attacking etc.

    ~Dance Like A Butterfly, Burn Like A Moth~
    [​IMG]
    (Why is there no DW artwork for Volca?)
    Volcarona@Life Orb
    Timid | Flame Body
    -Butterfly Dance
    -Flame Dance
    -Bug Buzz
    -HP Ground

    Now this is the star of the show. If he gets a chance to set up and the opponent lacks a moveset resistor that's physically based (since by the time time a special one gets to attack I'm at +2 SpD and can get more boosts to KO), then it's basically gg. The moveset is fairly standard; I use Flame Dance over Fire Blast because of the superior accuracy, plus Flame Dance is great for nabbing extra +SpA while attacking. I use HP Ground as my coverage move because HP Rock doesn't really hit anything particularly significant for SE; Terrakion resists and Heatran is neutral, while HP Ground hits both for SE. Balloon Heatran cannot hope to KO Volca after a BD, so I'm free to Bug Buzz to pop the balloon, then KO with HP Ground. If Stealth Rock is off the field, I get shitloads of setup opportunities;Scizor is one of my favourite opponents, as is Ferrothorn (assuming no T-Wave). Even Blissey can be overcome after a few Dances.

    So that's the team!

    I don't have the time or energy to complete a full threatlist, but the major pokemon I've had problem with are pokemon that boost their SpD, especially Suicune, as he hits my only 'anti CMer', Volcarona, with an SE STAB, and opposing Volcarona - if one comes in against Deoxys and get a Dance up, I've basically lost; every member of the team is outsped an OHKO'd (Volcanora can survive non-HP Rock variants, but will always be a step behind the opposition and will ultimately lose the matchup).
    I also hate T-Wave SubRoost Dragonite; all my team members absolutely hate paralysis (besides Starmie due to Natural Cure, and to a lesser extent Lucario since he's got priority). And with MultiScale, Dragonite is just so damn hard to kill, he usually manages to cripple at least half the team before finally dying.
    Those are the major threats that have stood out for me, but I may add others as I remember/come across them. For now though, please rate away!
  2. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
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    Just one small thing, I'd recommend Psycho Shock over HP Fire on Latios. It's always useful for special based teams to have sometinh to help with the blobs, although Gengar and Lucario (how much does +2 Aura Sphere do to Blissey?) also help. Nice team
  3. domeface

    domeface

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    Yeah, I've consdered Pyscho Shock, but I'm worried about being locked into a Psychic-type move; it makes me even more vulnerable to pursuit than usual. Then again, Tyranitar is taking pitiful damage from HP Fire anyway, so it might be worth a shot. Lucario's +2 Aura Sphere does ~60% to the blobs I think? It definitely 2HKOs, anyway. I might try out PS on Latios, that might help with CMers as well. Thanks for the rate :)
  4. Tangrowth KicksAss

    Tangrowth KicksAss

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    Blissey and chansey rape your team, make lucario physical, or even mixed
  5. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Given your troubles with Status, why not use something like ChestoRest Volcarona to give you soemthing else to take it? It isn't ideal by any means but it's probably the easiest option. The loss of coverage is not ideal but it's all you can do besides adding in a Ground. The obvious choice would be a Chomp somewhere, but I can't see it fitting.
  6. jwoozie

    jwoozie

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    I would go with Psycho Shock over HP Fire as Specs Surf 2hkos Scizor anyway.
  7. domeface

    domeface

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    No they don't, Lucario 2HKOs with +2 Aura Sphere, and if they lack T-Wave Volcarona can set up on them. They can be problematic, but I have far more trouble with CM users. Nasty Plot Lucario is much better than any mixed set, and I prefer it to SD due to Vacuum Wave's ability to hit Terrakion, Excadrill and other potentially problem pokemon hard.

    @Benlisted: that does sound like an interesting idea, and I generally do like ChestoRest sets for the general 'oh fuck' factor and status immunity etc, but I think the loss of coverage and the power drop without Life Orb may be too much to lose. I may try it out, but on paper it seems like it's probably not worth it. Thanks for the rate anyway, though :)
  8. Smith

    Smith is a 90's bitch
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Okay so I got your message, nice team. As far as Hyper Offensive teams go synergy is pretty unimportant and you'll be good against most opposing threats (for the most part). I really don't like the lack of weather changer here but I can't see where you would include one without breaking the team's style and structure. Anyways, SS sweepers are going to be really annoying for you- Doryuuzu in particular. Your only hope of beating him is Lucario's Vacuum Wave, which may not even be a KO. Fitting the theme of special sweepers, the only thing that seems like it would cover this weakness would be a CM Birijion, presumably over Gengar whom you seem least content with. Birijion is an excellent check to Doryuuzu and helps alleviate your Dragonite and Suicune weakness as well by providing you with an opposing CMer with Grass STAB and Ice coverage. Try this:

    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    252 SpAtk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
    Timid
    -Calm Mind
    -Giga Drain
    -Focus Blast
    -Hidden Power (nIce)

    Some other quick changes. First, it's probably not best to lead with deoxys-s on team preview, as people will pick up on that and send out a member of their team well suited to take you on. I think Lucario would make a good "lead", as it would attract 'mons like Gliscor, Skarmory or Reuniclus that are good to set up hazards against. As for Latios, I personally don't see the appeal of Dragon Pulse- DM hits plenty hard and Surf is fine for just neutral solid coverage. I think Trick would be good for dismantling stall, as a last-ditch Reuniclus check and in case you think being able to switch attacks would help you out in the late-game. Also, if for some reason you don't like Birijion, please consider Disable > Pain Split and Leftovers- this set is much more effective and even has a decent chance against Chansey 1v1, although I wouldn't recommend it.

    That's all the advice I have, good luck. I hope this helps!
  9. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    I agree with some other posters that blissey and specially bulky pokemon in general are going to be problematic for your team. Pursuit TTar could give you some real problems. Physical Lucario does seem advisable-- just switch to the Swords Dance set. In this meta, I'd personally use Ice Punch over Crunch, and even use Balloon-- all of this is to mess with Gliscor who is everywhere.

    My next suggestion would be to take that HP Fire from Latios and put it on Starmie instead. Of course it'll vaporize Scizor (who is a starmie check), but more importantly, can take care of Ferrathorn. While it seems somewhat like a poor man's Rotom-W, Hydro Pump / Thunderbolt / HP Fire / Rapid Spin is probably Starmie's best bet in this meta. Starmie (and Azelf for that matter) are so relatively rare that you shouldn't have to worry about speed ties too often. Taking out Ferrathorn is too valuable in this metagame, especially for a hyper offensive team.

    I'd agree that Gengar does seem to be dead weight. Whenever you use a pokemon like Gengar, you have to ask yourself-- what I am using it for? Sure, it's a threatening pokemon, but what is it doing for this team and it's goals? Gengar has little defensive value in a team preview meta, and has no setup sweeping abilities either. It's kind of a one man show that neither supports team mates nor provides a win condition.

    Even hyper offensive teams want some bulky pivots that can act as meat shields to help you switch between pokemon. I'd suggest switching Gengar for Burungeru, who can block rapid spinning, and with Ice Beam, can even prevent your team from getting swept late game by Scarf-Chomp, who you have something of a weakness to. Boil Over / Ice Beam / Shadow Ball / Recover seems the way to go for your team.
  10. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    1,668
    Considering you don't like status I'd look into a Conkeldurr. Guts lets you abuse status rather than fear it and you can never have enough Fighting moves. This helps a lot against Tyranitar too. The Bulk Up set is traditionally best, however if you want immediate power for CM users you can consider a Focus Punch or Choice Band set. Sub up on a Tyranitar and then let the strongest Focus Punch in the game fly. Drain punch as a supliment and leftovers keeps your HP high for more subs and you can use Stone Edge or Payback for coverage, though Stone Edge is preferred. The CB set can through out hard hitting Mach Punches and Super Powers although you do need to beware Ghosts in team preview.
  11. domeface

    domeface

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2010
    Messages:
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    Wow, thanks for all the helpful rates.

    @Smith:

    That Virizion set does look interesting; I'll try it ASAP in place of Gengar. I have had a bit of trouble with Excadrill in the past, as I need it to take a little prior damage before Lucario can revenge, so I rely on gaps in its coverage to weaken it with Latios or something. As for an actual weather changer, with Swift Swimmers no longer an issue, the main weather sweepers aren't that much of an issue - Excadrill can be troublesome as I said, but I've never really had trouble with Landorus or Chlorophyll users (and the Sun is actually very helpful for Volcarona, though it does hinder Starmie).

    I'm actually already doing what you suggest with Team Preview, although currently I lead with Volcarona. I may try switching Lucario there instead though, if you think he'd be a better lure.

    Dragon Pulse has actually been surprisingly useful - if I predict a switch to a weakened opponent, instead of 'wasting' a DM and putting myself in a very vulnerable position, I can Pulse, kill the switchin, and be able to hit the next pokemon for higher and consistent damage rather than being forced to switch. Trick could be interesting, but Latios loses a lot of power without Specs and Trick relies heavily on prediction to work - in a similar situation to HP Fire, I need to successfully predict the Blissey/Chansey switch-in and Trick successfully, since if I switch into them, then I basically broadcast that I'm running Trick, prompting them to switch to something better equipped to take it.
    Given the usefulness of Dragon Pulse and my difficulties with using Trick, I think I'd rather stick with the former. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

    And yeah, I was thinking a different Gengar set might be better, but I think I'll go for Virizion instead.

    Thanks very much for the detailed rate :)

    @Chou Toshio:

    Swords Dance Lucario is seeming like a more promising option, especially with Virizion now checking Excadrill very well. On Ice Punch, I believe it does give relatively good coverage alongside CC, but does it hit anything significant other than Gliscor for SE? There is Dragonite as well, I suppose... but is it worth giving up SE coverage on Ghosts when I have two or three other Ice users on the team, all of whom outspeed Gliscor and Dragonite, plus Salamence, Landorus andd Garchomp? Then again, there aren't that many common bulky Ghosts now, besides Burungeru and to a lesser extent Dusclops... I'll probably try both. Thanks for the tip, I'd probably have gone straight for Crunch otherwise.

    HP Fire on Starmie does seem like a good idea - on many occasions I wish I'd had it on a Ferrothorn switchin, but all of the moves seemed too valuble... then again, I do have Deoxys (though he'll likely have bitten the dust already...), Virizion and possibly Lucario for Ice-type coverage... I think I'll try it out, as Ferrothorn always switch in on Starmie, and it'd be nice to be able to kill them off straightaway.

    As for Burungeru, I have used him in the past on a RainStall team to some success, but I feel Smith's suggestion on Virizion works better for the team. However, I may consider Burungeru if Virizion isn't working as expected.

    Thank you too for your very detailed and helpful rate :)

    @Jaroda: I don't have time to go over your suggestion atm, but I will as soon as I get the chance, and thanks very much for it in any case :)
  12. MajorGambit

    MajorGambit

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    Have you ever heard about something called SCARFCHOMP?? It is indeed a very common threat and simply OHKO's ALL YOUR TEAM. Basically sandstorm teams rip through your team. Hyperoffense simply doesn't work this gen. There are too many threats and speedy pokes. SS breaks deoxys sash. After that scarfchomp simply comes in and out koing your pokes. And I'm just talking about ONE poke (two considering the sand summoner). Actually ttar + chomp is menace to this team and they ARE VERY COMMON! Using hp ice on ulgamoth MAY help but it would still need to have set up and try to outspeed adamant chomp. Really, hyperoffense is inneffctive this
    Gen, I'm sorry to be harsh.
  13. Fantom0

    Fantom0

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    379
    Personally, I think your team is way too special based. For this reason, there are three changes I would recommend....

    Change 1: SD Lucario over current set
    SD Lucario not only gives your team a sharp physical edge, but also is way more powerful than NP Lucario. Close Combat is better than Aura Sphere for something like Lucario, Crunch is about equal to Shadow Ball, and Extreme Speed is more powerful than Vacuum Wave. SD Lucario is something all offensive teams should at least consider, and this one would greatly help your team. If you're thinking about DW, it can also take good advantage of Righteous Heart too (although I doubt this is a DW team).
    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Jolly/Adamant: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 HP
    -Swords Dance
    -Close Combat
    -Crunch
    -Extreme Speed

    Change 2: Psycho Shock over HP Fire/Dragon Pulse
    Plenty of CM pokemon love to set up on Latios after a Draco Meteor. Psycho Shock gives you a much needed weapon to batter a CMer into submission. It also disposes of Blissey/Chansey, among many other special walls. Not to mention it gives Latios a much-needed psychic attack for the likes of poison, fighting, etc. I know it's already been said, but I'm just reinforcing the point.

    Change 3: Explosion over Pain Split over Gengar
    On a hyper offensive team, Explosion works wonders, especially on a team that doesn't like dealing with bulky waters. So LO Shadow Ball only 3/4HKOes Vaporeon, huh? What about after a Shadow Ball, Explosion flat-out KOes any bulky water? SubPlosion Gengar is perhaps one of my favorite 'mons for its guaranteed KO, maybe 2, on the opposing team. To make this work, just move across 40 SpA EVs into Atk.

    Hope I helped, and let's see just how far your team goes!
  14. MajorGambit

    MajorGambit

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
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    104
    Have you ever played gen 5?? Explosion on gengar??? It has awful atk and explosion got nerfed: it doesn't low foe's def before the atk. Really, this was terrible advice.
  15. domeface

    domeface

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    Jan 24, 2010
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    387
    Right, I've not had a chance to do any actual laddering yet, but imma reply to all yo' rates:

    @Jaroda:
    I see where you're coming from with Conkeldurr, and he does seem to be a good option for the team. However, I can only see him fitting in either Lucario or Gengar's place at this time. Since I haven't yet had a chance to try out Virizion in place of Gengar, or SD instead of NP on Lucario, I'd rather not switch Conkeldurr in there quite yet. However, if I'm dissastisfied with either replacement, I may try out Conkeldurr. There's also the slight issue that the main status I hate is paralysis, and while admittedly Conkeldurr doesn't really mind the speed drop, no pokemon likes the full paralysis chance. However, he certainly isn't as affected by it as the others, especially with Guts boosting his Attack in exchange. I will definitely consider him if I'm dissatisfied with any of my other team members after applying the suggested revision. Thanks for the tip :)

    @MajorGambit: ...are you aware of how Choice Scarf works? Every move Chomp carries can be set up on by the right pokemon - Latios on EQ, Lucario on Outrage/Dragon Claw/Stone Edge, lol Fire Blast/Fang. With the right move he could maybe sweep my team, but being Choiced reduces the threat level significantly. Sandstorm doesn't 'rip through my team' at all; Excadrill is rather troublesome, but is somewhat checked by Lucario at the moment, and with Virizion in Gengar's place I've got an even better check.
    Tyranitar gets raped by Lucario, +1 Volcarona, Starmie with some prior damage, Gengar if Focus Fail hits, even Latios 2HKOs most variants with Surf.
    Gliscor and Landorus get raped by the various Ice attacks, Hippowdon is pounded by all the special attacks... what other sand-based threats are there?
    Also, calm down with your attack on Rusted Platinum; it's an easy mistake to make and Explosion was a perfectly viable move last gen, and it's far from 'terrible advice' when he gave me helpful advice on Lucario and Latios.

    @Rusted Platinum:

    Yeah, unfortunately Explosion was nerfed as MG said so that's a much poorer option than in the past. In any case though, Virizion should be a good replacement for Gengar.
    I agree with your first suggestion: it does seem that SD Luke is just a better fit than NP. However I think I'll start with Ice Punch over Crunch as Chou suggested, though I plan to test both.
    And yeah, Psycho Shock does seem to be a good option, I was just apprehensive at first due to it opening me up to Pursuit. But I definitely will try it out, probably over HP Fire.
    Thanks for the rate :)

    Okay, so my planned changes are:

    -CM Virizion over Gengar
    -SD Lucario instead of NP (testing both Ice Punch and Crunch)
    -HP Fire over Ice Beam on Starmie (testing; may change back)
    -Pyscho Shock over HP Fire on Latios
    -Lucario leads in team preview.

    I'll update with my findings after I've had a chance to do a bit of laddering with these revision. Thanks a bunch to everyone who's rated so far :)
  16. domeface

    domeface

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    Jan 24, 2010
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    387
    Okay, this is part bump, part update on my findings with the revisions detailed in my previous post:

    I'm LOVING Swords Dance Lucario. ExtremeSpeed, despite being ubable to hit for SE, just has more useful coverage than VW; Latios, Landorus, Thundurus, and various other Fighting-resistant pokemon are no longer a problem. This is a definite stay, and I'll be updating the OP to this effect.

    I've had mixed experience with Virizion. He is undoubtedly very useful, and his excellent SpD comes in useful on many ocassions for tanking HP Ices, unSTABed Ice Beams etc. However, on the physical side I find him a little to frail for my liking; he is 2HKO'd by Excadrill's unboosted Return and very nearly by X-Scissor, despite supposedly being a good check. He also takes more than I'd like from random neutral physical hits, such as Scizor's Bullet Punch, Tyranitar's Superpower (on the switchin or if I choose to CM instead of attacking), etc etc. Also, Focus Fail's crap accuracy can be very frustrating at times. I'm considering switching it to the SD variant for a few reasons, being that it no longer has to rely on Focus Blast for Fighting STAB, it hits harder in general, with a +2 boost and more powerful moves, and it can actually take advantage of Justice Heart. The CM set is more tankish, while the SD set is more offensive, and with Virizion's mediocre physical defenses, I just don't think it's best suited to tanking. I could try a more defensive CM spread, something like 252HP/252Def Bold, but that means he needs more CMs to be able to sweeper properly, and it can't take advantage of its good speed... I'm not really sure. I'm thinking either

    Virizion@Life Orb (or lefties?)
    Jolly / Justice Heart
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    -Swords Dance
    -Leaf Blade
    -Close Combat (or Holy Sword?)
    -Coverage (X-Scissor/Stone Edge?)

    or

    Virizion@Leftovers
    Bold / Justice Heart
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    -Calm Mind
    -Giga Drain
    -Focus Blast (...)
    -HP Ice

    which would be better?

    I'm also really liking Psycho Shock on Latios - it's great for nailing Blissey switchins and is just generally more useful than HP Fire.

    I'm not quite so sure about HP Fire on Starmie, though - most Ferrothorn take around 70-80%, allowing them to Power Whip for the kill, or do something else and switch out to safety once they realise I'm carrying HP Fire. In my experience Hydro Pump tends to OHKO most Scizor anyway, so I'm not sure if it's worth giving up Ice Beam for.

    That's all so far, I may update again later.
  17. JSND

    JSND

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    951
    since you lack screen i really recommend virizion on your team like almost everyone say.
    NP luke TBH isnt that great. And had you are locked on latios NVE move, dory can get a turn of SD and straight OHKO all your team easilly since you cant say oh i have vacuum wave which 2HKO everytime.
  18. Fantom0

    Fantom0

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    379
    I would say to have a CM set. Luke is already an excellent SDer, so Virij with Calm Mind is very beneficial to your team. If you're not so keen on Focus Blast (I'm not either to be honest) try using HP Fight instead. Personally, I don't think speed matters too much on a Virij, so throwing your EVs into the physically defensive side would be a good idea in my opinion. Also, since when did your team need more speed?! Looking at it, it seems as though it's fast enough anyway.

    (My 100th post!)
  19. yankstar

    yankstar

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    11
    Have you thought of using trick over dragon pulse on latios? it helps you beat walls like blissy by crippling them. Your not going to use pulse much anyways
  20. Rishidafishi

    Rishidafishi

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2010
    Messages:
    37
    Psychic over psycho shock, because roobushin can last out a psycho shock and KO with payback due to it's insane defenses, but there's no way it can last out psychic
  21. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,668
    Stay special. Virizion definitely wants max speed, but you don't necessarily have to use SpA EVs. You can run a mix of HP and Df if you so choose. Most sand team abusers have weaker SpD after all and CC defense drops and lack of Giga Drain will make you easily revenged if you're worried about sticking around.

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