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Ferrothorn (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Delta 2777, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    Ferrothorn

    QC Approved (Iconic, Bloo, Pk Gaming)
    GP Approved (2/2)

    -----

    [Overview]

    <p>With Generation V bringing a plethora of offensively-inclined threats into the metagame, Ferrothorn remains an exception to the rule, holding its ground against many of the most threatening Pokemon seen in competitive play. Great defensive typing, above average stats, and a killer support movepool make him a valuable asset to both offensive and defensive teams alike. The ability to check so many threats at once, including but not limited to Latios, Gengar, and nearly every Water-type in existence allows Ferrothorn many opportunities to switch in and either set up entry hazards or retaliate with either of its two powerful STAB moves. Much like any other Pokemon, Ferrothorn does have its drawbacks in its poor Speed and 4x Fire weakness, but with the right team support, Ferrothorn will almost always perform well.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Standard
    move 1: Spikes / Stealth Rock
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Gyro Ball / Protect / Thunder Wave
    move 4: Power Whip / Protect
    nature: Relaxed
    item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
    evs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SpD
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is Ferrothorn's standard fare, and is what it will be running the majority of the time. Spikes work excellently on Ferrothorn, giving it something to do after switching in on an opponent that can't touch him. Leech Seed is also a very effective move, useful for preventing opposing Pokemon from setting up on it, while at the same time providing self-healing. Gyro Ball and Power Whip are Ferrothorn's best attacking options, hitting the majority of the standard metagame for at least neutral damage. However, because Ferrothorn's Attack stat is less than impressive without any investment, Protect is an appealing alternative over either move, as it is useful not only for scouting, but for racking up Leech Seed and Leftovers recovery as well. Gyro Ball and Power Whip each have their own merits; the former is more useful against faster threats, most notably Dragon-types and Gengar, while the latter is more useful against Water-types and slow Pokemon, such as Reuniclus.</p>

    <p>In addition to the moves listed, two other viable options in Ferrothorn's movepool are Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave. While Ferrothorn is typically better suited for setting up Spikes, Stealth Rock can be used if it is being used with another Spikes user. Stealth Rock can also be used over Leech Seed, although this means Ferrothorn is left without any means of recovery outside of Leftovers. Thunder Wave, despite having poor synergy with Gyro Ball, allows Ferrothorn to cripple many of its common counters, such as Infernape and Hydreigon, although it can be difficult to find an open moveslot for it. As a final additional option, Ferrothorn can use Shed Shell in order to escape from Magnezone and Wobbuffet, although this means that Ferrothorn loses out on valuable Leftovers recovery.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Ferrothorn can be EVed in many different ways, depending on how defensive it needs to be on each side of the damage spectrum. The given EV spread balances Ferrothorn's Defense and Special Defense, with a slight emphasis on Defense, allowing Ferrothorn to fare better against threats such as Excadrill, Landorus, Haxorus, Gyarados, and some variants of Scizor. However, a Sassy nature can be used in order to take hits from the likes of Latios, Starmie, and Gengar even better. EV investment can be adapted as seen fit depending on what Ferrothorn is typically depended on to switch into more often. Finally, while not required, Ferrothorn can benefit from some investment in Attack in order to inflict more damage to foes, such as Landorus. Anywhere between 40 and 252 EVs can be used, however keep in mind that too much investment severely detracts from Ferrothorn's survivability.</p>

    <p>Thanks to Ferrothorn's great defensive typing, it is one of the easiest Pokemon to make a defensive core with. Jellicent is one of the best options, as together, they resist every attacking type in the game with the exceptions of Ground and Flying. In addition, Jellicent is capable of blocking attempts to spin away the hazards that Ferrothorn sets up. Fire-types in general also make great teammates to Ferrothorn, as not only do they resist Ferrothorn's biggest weakness, but they also scare off many of the Pokemon that give Ferrothorn problems, such as Skarmory, Scizor, and some Jirachi. Water-types also generally have good synergy with Ferrothorn, particularly those that also possess a resistance to Fighting-type moves, such as Gyarados and Tentacruel.</p>

    <p>Ferrothorn is also often compared to Forretress when competing for a team slot. This is not surprising, as both Pokemon possess a similar typing, while also having access to Spikes. Forretress also has better Defense while Ferrothorn has superior Special Defense. In general, the team slot will go to whichever the team needs more: Forretress' access to Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin, or Ferrothorn's superior resistances and Special Defense. Regardless, one should consider Forretress before deciding to use Ferrothorn on a team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Gyro Ball
    move 2: Power Whip
    move 3: Bulldoze
    move 4: Spikes / Explosion
    nature: Brave
    item: Choice Band
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While this set may appear to be a gimmick at first, it is quite far from it. Ferrothorn may lack a large offensive movepool, but its two extremely powerful STAB moves in Gyro Ball and Power Whip backed by a respectable base 94 Attack stat show that this set is not to be underestimated. Steel- and Grass-type attacks have surprisingly good coverage together, only being reisisted by a handful of common threats, most of which possess either Steel or Fire typing. Despite Bulldoze's paltry base power of 60, it hits many of the Pokemon that resist Ferrothorn's STAB moves for a large amount of damage. The last moveslot is largely filler; Spikes isn't the best move to be locked into, but can be useful in certain situations. Explosion's high Base Power, on the other hand, is very appealing, but comes at the cost of Ferrothorn's life, and is not much more powerful than Ferrothorn's STAB moves.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is so effective because of Ferrothorn's surprising power when it wields a Choice Band in tandem with its useful bulk and typing. Because many players expect Ferrothorn to simply set up Spikes or use Leech Seed in order to recover, it is typically unlikely for the opponent to switch in a Pokemon capable of withstanding all of Ferrothorn's attacks. Here are some damage calculations to show how powerful this set is, assuming a Brave nature and 0 Speed IVs.</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Gyro Ball (-1) vs. 0/0 Salamence: 77.9% - 91.8%</li>
    <li>Gyro Ball vs. 4/0 Thundurus: 72% - 84.7%</li>
    <li>Gyro Ball vs. 252/4 Deoxys-S: 115.5% - 136.2%</li>
    <li>Gyro Ball vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 58.8% - 69.5%</li>
    <li>Power Whip vs. 4/0 Excadrill: 107.73% - 126.80%</li>
    <li>Power Whip vs. 252/0 Conkeldurr: 65.2% - 76.8%</li>
    <li>Power Whip vs. 192/64 Reuniclus: 73.6% - 86.8%</li>
    <li>Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Reuniclus: 52.6% - 62.3%</li>
    <li>Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Suicune: 83.7% - 98.5%</li>
    <li>Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Hippowdon: 79% - 93.3%</li>
    <li>Bulldoze vs. 4/0 Heatran: 69.1% - 81.5%</li>
    <li>Bulldoze vs. 40/0 Magnezone: 70.1% - 83.8%</li>
    <li>Explosion vs. 192/64 Zapdos: 80.8% - 95.1%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Despite the lack of investment in Ferrothorn's defenses, maximizing Ferrothorn's HP investment still provides it with plenty of bulk. In fact, Ferrothorn's bulk in combination with its great defensive typing is one of his main selling points over other Choice Band users, such as Terrakion, and Scizor, as Ferrothorn will often take multiple hits before going down. Unfortunately, there are several common Pokemon that Choice Band Ferrothorn struggles with, namely Scizor, Skarmory, Bronzong, Zapdos, and opposing Ferrothorn. For this reason, it is wise to pair Ferrothorn up with a Fire-type. Not only do they have good synergy, but a Fire-type such as Heatran or Infernape is capable of switching in on many of the Pokemon that give this set trouble.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Two of the most noteworthy moves not mentioned above are Curse and Gravity. Curse is a viable set-up move for Ferrothorn, allowing it to boost its Attack to dangerous levels while simultaneously increasing its Defense through the roof. However, Ferrothorn is still vulnerable to Fire-type attacks, and will be OHKOed by many of them, so this set requires a great deal of team support. Gravity, on the other hand, allows Ferrothorn to act as a defensive pivot on a Gravity-based team, although Gravity is generally considered a gimmicky strategy.</p>

    <p>For individual sets, the standard set does not have many other options available aside from Stealth Rock and Toxic. Stealth Rock is only recommended if there is no teammate that can set up Stealth Rock as effectively, as Ferrothorn is one of the few useful Pokemon capable of setting up Spikes. Toxic is a viable option as well, but it is generally dismissed in favor of Leech Seed, which heals Ferrothorn in addition to racking up residual damage. Rugged Helmet is also a viable item choice on the standard set, as Pokemon that use contact moves against Ferrothorn will lose 25% of their health due to the combination of Rugged Helmet and Steel Thorns. This is especially helpful in warding off Pokemon that want to use Rapid Spin against Ferrothorn, especially since Rapid Spin does not remove entry hazards if the user faints from Steel Thorns immediately after using the move. On the Choice Band set, Ferrothorn can use Return, Rollout, Payback, Shadow Claw, or even Leech Seed in the fourth slot, although Spikes and Explosion are generally superior options.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Pokemon that carry Fire-type moves, such as Heatran, Infernape, Zoroark, and Hydreigon, are more than capable of forcing Ferrothorn out. However, Ferrothorn is capable of surviving some weaker Fire-type attacks, such as Tyranitar's Flamethrower. This gives Ferrothorn the opportunity to either attack back or set up entry hazards. Likewise, users of powerful Fighting-type attacks, such as Conkeldurr and Terrakion, will also scare most Ferrothorn off. Magic Bounce Xatu and Espeon, as well as Taunt Skarmory are capable of rendering Ferrothorn nearly useless, preventing it from laying down Spikes while providing their own form of team support in the form of either dual screens or Spikes, respectively.</p>

    <p>Many Pokemon that are often otherwise shut down by Ferrothorn, such as Latios and Starmie, are capable of crippling Ferrothorn if they choose to run Hidden Power Fire or Trick. Magnezone with either Hidden Power Fire or the combination of Charge Beam and Substitute is also capable of making Ferrothorn's life miserable. Finally, because Ferrothorn does not have reliable recovery outside of Leech Seed and Rest, it can eventually be worn down by powerful or boosted neutral hits. Be warned, however, that many of Ferrothorn's counters will dread switching in on the Choice Band set, especially if they are not expecting it.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Ferrothorn does not get a Dream World ability. However, once Dream World Chandelure is released, it is recommended that Ferrothorn opt to hold a Shed Shell rather than Leftovers in order to avoid being trapped and OHKOed by the deadly chandelier.</p>
  2. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    This set was brought up in mtr's analysis. It should be considered for usage:

    Choice Band (open)
    Ok there NEEDS to be a Choice Band set. Quite simply: it's amazing. Theorymon ran some calcs one night and found out stuff like it 2HKOs Reshiram with Gyro Ball and can 2HKO Timid Lugia. It's so slow with a Brave nature and 0 Speed IVs its pretty much always 150 BP. Power Whip / Gyro Ball / filler / filler; Power whip and Gyro Ball are really all you need. Possible fillers are Explosion, Payback, Leech Seed, Level Ground or whatever. It also still has amazing bulk with 252 HP / 252 Atk. Under the rain hardly anything can OHKO it, and Kyogre also has pretty nice synergy with it to boot. No one really expects it either, and it almost always rips gaping holes in the enemies team.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Power Whip
    move 2: Gyro Ball
    move 3: Leech Seed / Spikes
    move 4: Explosion / Level Ground / Payback
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Brave
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    ivs: 0 Spe

    move 3 and 4 slashes don't really matter to be honest, and the EV spread is subject to change sorta...

    But, yeah, this is extremely good. Try it if you don't believe me, it hits like a fucking truck (all credit to Theorymon for this set too!)


    However, I would probably argue for Spikes / Leech Seed instead of the other way around, because Spikes is awesome on Nattorei.
  3. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    Seconding darkmalice's suggestion, you should hear theorymon ranting on IRC about CBNatt ;p. A Swords Dance set is also highly viable, running Gyro Ball / Swords Dance / Power Whip / Leech Seed. It works simliarly to the CB set, as people expect defensive Nattorei, and find themselves gwtting unexpectedly swept once you get to +4 Atk.

    Leech Seed, Toxic and Protect make Nattorei an excellent Toxic staller, with its high mixed defences. I suggest that you try it out, and see if you can add it to SET 1.

    This analysis is coming up well, good luck.
  4. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    A Curse set works well on Nattorei. While powering up its Gyro Ball with Attack rises and Speed drops, it makes it an impetrentable physical wall.

    Also, mention Hihidarmua and Infernape in the Counters section. They can come in on anything and proceed to rip Nattorei apart with Fire Moves.
  5. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    I think I'll leave Curse and SD in Other Options, since regardless of the boosts Nattorei is always forced out by nearly any Fire-type move. The same goes for powerful Fighting-type attacks although to a lesser extent.

    I'll test CB some more.
  6. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Bump.

    I've tried me out some ChestoRest Nattorei, it's pretty cool. Especially since you can run SR and Spikes at the same time, and still use Power Whip for rain-countery (or Gyro Ball, if dragons really bother you). Leech Seed never seems to be quite as useful as people make it out to be, and one time insta-recovery is cool for killing rain-teams more. It can also absorb status better, I guess. Lucky Manaphy burns really suck.

    Nattorei can run more physical defense if it wants.


    wut
  7. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    Nattorei can have both Stealth Rock and Leech Seed spontaneously. How? By breeding with a Torterra transferred from the 4th generation that learned Stealth Rock through TM. Thought I'd throw that out there for you.
  8. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    Protect + leech seed definitely needs its own set. I use it on my ferrothorn and I couldn't imagine it without such damn good recovery.

    Leech seed recovers huge amounts of HP with leftovers, wears down your opponent and provides team support too. Protect can be used for scouting as well. IMO it should be the main set. The usefulness of these two moves as both recovery and utility is amazing and should be the standard. Under rain, ferro always beats magnezone that lack substitute. You can beat it without rain sometimes too if you seed it when it switches in, especially with that specially defensive set. (I use careful 252 HP/60 Def/196 SpDef)

    I run Power whip/leech seed/protect and spikes/stealth rock/thunderwave. I don't use gyro ball much.

    My proposal for standard ferrothorn:

    [SET]
    name: Standard
    move 1: Spikes / Stealth Rock / Thunderwave
    move 2: Protect / Gyro Ball
    move 3: Leech Seed
    move 4: Power Whip
    nature: Sassy
    item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
    evs: 252 HP / 248 SpDef / 8 Def
    ivs: 0 Spe

    I haven't used this EV spread, so I'll leave it as is.
  9. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    I'm going to slash Protect on the main set. I don't think Protect + Leech Seed deserves its own set when you could have the same set by just adding a slash.

    -Anyone who thinks the EV spread should be altered just say so (and why) and I'll consider the change.
    -Thunder Wave will probably get an AC mention; I've never found it too useful since hitting the switch-in with two turns of Leech Seed damage is usually enough (and Nattorei surprisingly has 4 moveslot syndrome).
  10. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    It's more of an X-Act applet copypasta, but if you want a bit more even bulk, 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD Sassy is a decent option for EVs. It provides you with that hair more physical bulk that you can use to abuse that massive defense stat. Unless there's any calcs I'm unaware of that proves that huge SpD investment is a must, this isn't too bad.

    And honestly here, there's a silly amount of options Ferrothorn can use. It's basically "Here's his best moves, pick four." You can basically run one attack move and basically any three support moves on Ferrothorn and it work; or two attacks and almost any other two support moves, or even 3 attacks and a support move... Ferrothorn is going to have issues with proper slash representation.
  11. DK Quagmire

    DK Quagmire

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    Iv'e been using a move set that hasn't been mentioned, and works amazingly well!!!

    I spend most of my time in double battles at the frontier with Nattorei, in a trick room environment, and iv'e managed to sweep almost every time.

    Please bare in mind, that I am new, and any improvements to this set are welcomed. Please be aware that I want this to be an EXPLOSION set, and I have put allot of thought into this.

    Name: Bomb seeder (impending name)
    Move 1: Leech Seed
    Move 2: Protect/ Power Whip
    Move 3: Gyro Ball
    Move 4: Explosion
    Nature: Brave/ Adament
    Item: Rugged Helmet
    Evs: 252 ATK, 130 DEF, 124 SP DEF (my defences are roughly even, but if anyone can suggest some better EV's for my set)


    Nattorei's defences allow it to set up leech seeds (2 on 2-2/ 3 on 3-3) while Protect allows you to recover from any hits that you've taken while trying to set up leech seed. it's ability allows you to abuse the held item, the rugged helmet, which does about 1/4 of the opponents health with it's ability. the only other pokemon who can possibly do this combo is Sharpedo!

    Power Whip is an option over Protect, as it deals nice STAB but as you'll be seeding, with a low speed, you'll be using Gyro Ball for your main move most of the time. The Said Move, Gyro Ball works extremely well with Nattorei's incredibly low speed, and is a force to be reckoned with.

    Explosion is a must for any pokemon compatible with it, and as such is a great finishing move, if you think the next move won't kill the opponent, or if you think the opponent will switch into a fire type. with all those EV's in ATK, it's gonna blow away anything that's standing in your way, except for ghosts.

    for the most time just stall with Protect, unless your on full health.


    *partners that work well for Nattorei, in this set are Musharna, with it's dream world ability Telepathy and Oobemu who gets the ability naturally. You can pick up a Musharna with the dream world ability every Friday at the Dream Lot.
    Well anyway, Telepathy prevents all damage from team mates, which includes moves like Earthquake, Discharge, Surf, Lava Plume and the main move... EXPLOSION!!!
    *On the downside, this set doesn't work well when your opponent use fire types on the front row, and/ or fast Fire and/ or Fighting types


    hope this helps :)
  12. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    This is for single battles. Also, Explosion is pretty bad this generation and it'd be terrible to give up such a valuable wall just to deal some not-great damage.
  13. TransparentOpacity

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    I'd like to point out that 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD with a +SpD nature is the best according to that Smogon defense calculator thing. Nattorei often takes attacks from both sides of the field, so I don't see why special defense is more important.

    Also, Rugged Helmet should be an option. I believe the opponent takes 25% after using a physical attack on Nattorei, counting the Iron Barbs. It's great against things that use Fake Out or Rapid Spin, allows you to beat other physical walls, and even a powerful physical sweeper takes a lot of damage. It deters things from attacking it, which sometimes gives it more survivability than leftovers does.

    You probably don't need a set for it, but at least mention Swords Dance Nattorei. It's pretty good in Trick Room.
  14. Quickster

    Quickster

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    Nattorei resists Water, Grass, Ghost and Electric which are all mainly special attacks. Physical attacks-wise, there is Normal and Dark, and Dragon as mix. Most of the time, Nattorei is taking special hits especially when including Rain.
  15. Iconic

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    Excellent work, but what do the 88 Defense do on the Standard set? I've always used Sassy and 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD, so unless the 88 Defense EVs let Nattorei survive something significant, I think you should just max out Special Defense.

    Looks great other than that.

    QC Approved 1/3
  16. RaikouLover

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    Curse Natty is disguistingly dangerous. Been sweeping entire teams with it. Curse powers up Gyro Ball to shockingly high levels against practically everything.
  17. Blightbringer

    Blightbringer The Butt Naked Wonder
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    The calculation you have listed for Choice Band Nattorei's Power Whip against Doryuuzu is wrong, since you forgot to apply Choice Band's 50% boost.

    315 Atk vs 156 Def & 362 HP (270 Base Power): 390 - 459 (107.73% - 126.80%)
    That is the correct calculation.
  18. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    Thanks, it was actually the STAB boost that I forgot.
  19. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Nice analysis Delta!

    You mention Magnezone as a counter in the set comments, but you forgot to give him a mention in the actual counters section. (its quite possibly the best Nattorei counter for obvious reasons)
  20. Bloo

    Bloo
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    I'd like to see Rugged Helmet mentioned somewhere in Additional Comments on the first set. I've been using it a lot lately, and it has been working out nicely. Like TransparentOpacity stated, your opponent will be taking 25% damage (add Iron Barbs into the equation and they'll be taking even more) after you're hit with a physical move. This damage can add up very, very quickly, especially against Rapid Spinners like Tentacruel and Hitmontop, both of who will try to get rid of your precious entry hazards. Other than that, this looks great, good job!

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  21. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    QC APPROVED (3/3)

    You're good to go.
  22. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Thought I'd try my hand at GPing since the new rules allow amateur GPs to be stamped by official GPers.

    Also I didn't see the note about fixing Japanese names until after I had finished, so those particular fixes can just be ignored. :P

    Show Hide

  23. TransparentOpacity

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    On the choice band set is Payback any good?
  24. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    Thanks for the GP check, I implemented most of the suggestions you gave but I kept a few things that I thought made more sense before the changes. Also does this count as an "official" GP check?

    Not really, since Payback doesn't double in base power on the switch anymore, meaning there are not many situations where it will be an ideal move to be used.
  25. jrrrrrrr

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    The only change I would make to the sets is to add Stealth Rock to the first/"Standard" set. It's one of the few Unova pokemon that can even learn the move, I think it deserves more than OO from my experience with it, especially since Protect is slashed in there twice. IMO we should have the analyses encourage everything that the pokemon can do well, and Nattorei is a damn good user of Stealth Rock.

    I also think some Atk EVs should be mentioned in the OO of the first set too. I used a Max Attack Nattorei and it got a surprising amount of KOs (especially when Rain teams were everywhere). It's mediocre attack stat is balanced out by the fact that Gyro Ball and Power Whip both usually have >180 Base Power.

    I realize QC was done already, but I thought those minor tweaks were worthwhile to the sets when I playtested Natts.

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