1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Fighting the Flow

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by haxcho, Oct 16, 2012.

  1. haxcho

    haxcho

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Admittedly, I've never been a person who was willing to spend copious amounts of times learning a game, though I'm still determined on being good at them. This is a rather complicated combination, so I tried to find an "easy" way to win at most games, and this search was successful: Anti-Meta. Anti-Meta gives you a chance at winning games even against people who are far better than you in most in-fight abilities. Unfortunately, in process of finding an Anti-Meta-Build, I often end up spending just as much time as with simply playing so long that I'd have gotten good. Nevertheless, it's usually a fun experience.

    So now, to start with the explanation of this specific build. The first question is the state of the meta, obviously. Generally, there are 2 defining points in my opinion:

    1. Speed>Power>Bulk (I don't mean this in sense of strength, but in preference of most players)
    2. Insane precautions to preserve the own weather
    My first try therefore was to make a team that lured the opponent into sacrificing his weather starter because I had none & then Rain dance with Tornadus & Sweep with Kingdra afterwards. Maybe I'll post it later, but generally, I underestimated the cautiousness of most players, therefore, I tried a different approach: Completely forgoing bulk and weather in favor of being even speedier than the metagame already is. So the question was: Where to start? I simply looked at the usage statistics of august and saw that a big chunk of them is weak to fighting. The next decision was that rapid spin would take away momentum, something that is extremely important for offensive teams, so the Pokemon should have no issue with entry hazards; Coincidentally,fighting types already are resistant to stealth rock, so I started from there:

    [​IMG]
    4x resistance to rock, dark and bug + immunity to poison makes it easy to switch in, even with it's frailty.After SD, basically all fast pokemon are OHKO'ed by Extreme Speed(often even without!) and nearly all bulky pokemon by Close Combat.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Another 4x resistance to rock + insanely strong Bullet Seed and Mach Punch with Technician. The redundant coverage is no big problem because as said, fighting is an awesome attacking type. But now, these both still are somewhat weak to spikes, both are weak to fire, both are physical attackers and if the opponent resists their priority, they're far from fast. The next choice is obvious therefore:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Scarfed Rotom-W. First, I wanted Rotom-C(resistant to rock), but I really needed a counter against fire. Still, I'm glad with it, because it can hit hard with hydro pump, cripple walls with trick and cripple physical attacker with will-o-wisp. But I can't really kill dragons (literally) with these three - definitely needs something for that...
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Scarfed Latios. With 110 base speed + scarf, it outspeeds and OHKOes every dragon aside from dragonite with multiscale even at +1. I don't have any hazards anyway so far and to get rid of this weakness, there's one pokemon better than every other:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Suicide-lead Deoxys.Securely get's two layers of hazards up, often even more. Also generally fit's this teams hyper-offense style. It get's even better when you see at the usage statistics that spinners aren't THAT common at the moment, but many mons are weak to hazards. But they need to stay if the opponent should use a spinner, so the next pokemon is also a rather common choice for hyper-offense:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    SubDisable-Gengar.With leftovers, it's surprisingly bulky and can easily scout movesets.

    Now the close-up:


    [​IMG]

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance
    - Crunch

    Pretty self-explanatory.Switch in on something it threatens to kill, then either kill it or SD, depending on whether you predict him to switch or not.
    The biggest issue is that it often just *closely* misses a KO. As soon as it's burned, it's also pretty useless. I'm not sure about the last slot, but crunch can score some surprise KO's and the coverage of fighting+dark is pretty amazing.


    [​IMG]

    Breloom @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Spore
    - Bullet Seed
    - Mach Punch
    - Low Sweep

    Because of it's typing + HP-investment, it can actually take some hit's and threaten with spore and mach punch. Opponents often switch to a useless mon hoping I would spore it; so I can capitalize on that with Low Sweep, scoring a kill and still saving up my spore. The investment might seem unusual for a offensive mon, but with 70 speed, it relies on Mach Punch anyway to kill off faster threats and most pokemon are slower after a Low Sweep.


    [​IMG]

    Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Trick
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Will-o-Wisp is uncommon on a scarfed set, but Hidden Power Ice would be pointless imho because it doesn't outspeed +1 dragons (bar dragonite) anyway, and Will-o-Wisp also cripples most dragons, so they still can't change in savely and Hidden Power Fire would be redundant with Latios. It's also somewhat practical to have such a fast burn.


    [​IMG]

    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Trick

    Main problem of this mon should be Pursuit, but the usual users are Tyranitar and Scizor, and both are somewhat threatened by this set( In case of Tyranitar, it's actually easily OHKO'ed by half my team). The next common user of dark moves, Hydreigon, fears draco meteor, so it isn't a THAT big issue. Without Adamant, it unfortunately missed some crucial KO'es.


    [​IMG]

    Deoxys-Defense @ Fire Gem
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 48 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Thunderbolt

    With this set, I can kill Starmie, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Xatu and Scizor easily and make sure I'm not complete set-up bait. Strong and fast Ghost-, Dark- or Bug-Type-Attacks still 2HKO him, though.The def-investment is to make sure that Genesects U-Turn doesn't hurt as much.


    [​IMG]

    Gengar @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Disable
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast

    The typical SubDisable set. Most should know it's strengths & weaknesses. Though one hilarious annotation is the combination of trick + disable. Therefore, I often save Rotom-W + Gengar up.


    Strong Points of this team:
    • No wasted slots & turns for weather and rapid spin gives me a huge advantage
    • With 3 levitates, one steel type and several rock resistances, all three entry hazards are mostly useless, still many opponents waste time to lay them down, which gives me even more free turns
    • 2 strong priorities + 2 scarfes makes revenge-killing extremely easy and frail teams are often easily swept by just 2 pokemon.
    • 2 Tricks + SD + Disable gives stall a hard time, even though most of my mons have no means of recovery.

    Threat-List:

    • Strong weather abusers without precautions for saving the weather, thus I don't have the usual advantage of having 6 pokemon who actually DO SOMETHING instead of just saving the weather.
    • Fast Ghost-Type-Attacks from the likes of Gengar or Alakazam.
    • Trick Room Reuniclus also threatens with Shadow Ball & can reverse my speediness.
    • Status. Everyone on my team bar Deoxys hates paralyze, while breloom and Lucario also hate burning. I usually can just let one pokemon get statused & change it in every time I guess he tries to status again. Toxic isn't that much of an issue, though. On the other hand, my team hits so hard, the opponent often has to sacrifice a pokemon to get a status on one pokemon.
    • bad luck. I know, every team has that to some extent, but with this team, half of my losses are due to a crucial miss with Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump or Focus Blast and getting OHKOed afterwards.

    After a good amount of time trying this team out, it worked relatively good, but if the opponent has several ghost- and dark-type attacks, it can get difficult. Therefore, I especially think about changing either Latios or Deoxys-D, but I don't know a pokemon who fulfills their role appropriately. Also, Lucario is often not able to SD, though he's already useful without it. Genesect can be a thorn in my side if he uses bug buzz, which OHKOes Deoxys-D.

    So guys, it's time to rip my team apart!

    P.S: This is my first RMT, so if I explained something not thoroughly enough, feel free to ask.
  2. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    511
    Hi there,

    Pretty solid hyper offense team, with very few exploitable weaknesses. The main issue I saw with this team was your very apparent weakness to Rain. Every time Thundurus-T switches in, you run the risk of losing something. Thundurus-T is extremely threatening. It isn't OHKO'd by either of Breloom or Lucario's priority, while Gengar rarely wins in a one on one situation. Deoxys-D cannot really touch it in Rain, and Thundurus-T uses it as setup fodder. You fully rely on Latios to revenge it, but Thundurus-T won't be staying in against Latios anyway, so it can hang around to wait until it gets another free switch to wreck havoc among your team. I also noticed you look a little Scarf Politoed weak. It revenges a lot of things on your team, while still retaining decent bulk. Even Rotom who is commonly used as an answer for Politoed cannot do so with your set, as you cannot touch it when locked into Will-O-Wisp or Hydro Pump, forcing you to switch and Politoed hits your oncoming switch just as hard. To help with this, I'd recommend you try out a Specially Defensive Resto Chesto Rotom-W over your current set. Specially Defensive Rotom-W performs a much needed job in this metagame - excellent Rain check. This set helps against Thundurus-T, while also being excellent against Tornadus-T aswell, who just like Thundurus-T, poses a big threat to your team. With a Chesto Berry, you also bluff a Choice item, which is excellent on hyper offense teams such as this. You can easily bluff said item and Rest up when you get low, meaning you maintain a bluff for a long time and have a sustainable and reliable answer to the aforementioned Rain abusers. Losing Scarf Rotom-W is not that much of a big deal, given you already have another scarfer in Latios. It means you're not fully reliant on Latios to beat these Rain abusers which helps in situations where teams carry more than one of these Pokemon.

    I also noticed that your team looks really Mamoswine weak, Jolly Mamoswine in particular. It outspeeds your Lucario and is able to KO you before you can kill it, while hitting everything on your team hard. Gengar cannot hope to SubDisable stall sets that carry 2 stab moves, while having to rely on Focus Blast's shaky accuracy. Breloom cannot hope to revenge it either, as Mamoswine is always carrying Ice Shard meaning it can revenge Breloom with some prior damage. Deoxys-D uses it as Spikes fodder, but it can't really do anything in return, as Thick Fat really nullifies Fire Gem Hidden Power [Fire]. I'd highly recommend you switch Lucario to a Jolly Nature. With a Jolly Nature, you outspeed all non scarf Mamoswine and kill them before they kill you. This is great because it gives you a reliable check against Mamoswine who is always beating it in a one on one situation. The loss of power with Jolly really isn't notable either, as you already have Life Orb and Swords Dance boosting your Attack. I'd also recommend you go with Ice Punch > Crunch on Lucario aswell. While Crunch is ideal for hitting Reuniclus / Gengar, Ice Punch means you are not turned into setup fodder for Dragonite, which is arguably much more important. This becomes even more important if you go with the Specially Defensive Rotom-W suggestion, as you lose one of your checks to Dragonite. Ice Punch means Dragonite cannot set up on you, which is great because Dragonite seems incredibly problematic, even moreso when it doesn't seem like Deoxys-D is always in your lead position, meaning you have to deal with Multiscale too. Multiscale pretty much guarantees Dragonite a Dragon Dance against anything on your team, and with Ice Punch you can essentially break through this, which leaves much less pressure on your other team mates to deal with Dragonite.

    The final thing I noticed was your Gengar set, and I'm really not sure it fits into your team. Sub Disable Gengar wears down Gengar much faster than you need to be, and given that it's your Spinblocker, I think you could make much better use of it. Sub Disable seems like you lose a lot of your momentum, while still having a lot of trouble breaking through some of the 'mons you try to Disable stall, namely Chansey, Tyranitar with two physical moves, Tentacruel, etc. I think a Life Orb Gengar would be a much better fit over your current SubDisable set, as you can actually beat Tentacruel who tries to Spin against your team. A set of Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Icy Wind and Thunderbolt seems optimal, as you hit everything you need to. With Thunderbolt you hit Tentacruel, the main spinner Gengar has trouble with. Not allowing your opponent to Spin allows you to play a lot more recklessly with Rotom-W, almost Volt Switching at will. Icy Wind helps mostly against DD Dragonite, as extra insurance as Ice Punch Lucario is not 100% reliable. Most people will try to set up against Gengar when Dragonite is in, so with Icy Wind you remove Dragonite easily. It's also good because Gengar outspeeds bulky DD Nite after a Dragon Dance, and is immune to Extremespeed. Life Orb is there for the loss of Lucario's Crunch, allowing you to hit a little harder against Jellicent and CM Reuniclus which seems ideal for your team as these two pose some problems for hyper offense teams without a Taunt user.

    Good luck!

    Rotom-W (open)
    Rotom-W @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Rest
  3. haxcho

    haxcho

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Thank you for your input, your changes definitely seem to make sense, I'll try them out next time!
    But I have some question/comments on them:

    You're completely right with the weakness against politoed and the therians, and your change to rotom obviously helps against politoed and tornadus. But how does it help against thundurus-t? It's now outsped by him and can only use hydro-pump, while thundurus-t might have grass-knot. I'd still rely on Latios, though if he changes out, he will have taken 50% to stealth rock next time he changes in, so he is in OHKO-range of Lucario & Rotom-W(maybe also breloom, but I'm not sure there), so I'd probably be fine, I guess.

    Next point is that Lucario already has problems doing enough damage without SD and the change of nature would worsen this. Though since he is unreliable anyway without it, it's probably better to simply not use him in these situations.

    The last thing is that, with one trick & disable gone, full stall teams suddenly are much more difficult to handle as far as I can see, or is there something I miss?

    And btw, Deoxys-D is always in the lead if the opponent doesn't have tyranitar or something similar that can possibly OHKO it and can't be touched be Deoxys-D, therefore, Dragonite should be OHKOed by Lucario with Extremespeed after SD. So, maybe Bullet Punch instead of Ice Punch, Since I can deal with Terrakion/Mamoswine that way? Because Terrakion often stopped my Lucario from sweeping.
  4. haxcho

    haxcho

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Since nobody answered for nearly a day now, bump!
  5. Yeezy D

    Yeezy D

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Of course, anti-meta by using very prominent faces in the metagame...

    I see your logic.
  6. haxcho

    haxcho

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    It's seems you doesn't know what Anti-Meta means. It means simply that you use pokemon which are especially strong against the pokemon who are most used - it doesn't say anything about how common they are themselves, and it's of no interest for me, to be honest. I had teams with half uu, half ou which where viable; This one now has no "dark horse", that's true, but it doesn't need one, anyway.
  7. EnterRAYZORS

    EnterRAYZORS

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
    Messages:
    97
    Nice hyper offense team! (one of my favourite and best playstyles)
    Anti Metagame teams are hard to make as there are so many threats in the current metagame. Since the release of BW2, a certain little bug has been running riot in OU. Genesect. Once Gengar is dead, then probebly the most common pokemon in the game atm can destroy you. (the rock polish set especially) so im just asking how you deal with it as Lucarios priority is resisted, and brelooms is neutral so it will die to a flamethrower.
    Anyway i agree that the suggested (above) rotom set could also help with a lot of threats to your team.
    I realise this is more of a question than a rate, but im curious, and cant think of any counter other than a Terrakion. Terrakion with a band can wall most Genesects, and destroy them with a Stab CC, aswell as been helpfull against steel types and Blissey and chansey that could wall your team. Id suggest jolly, with, 252 attack and speed, 4 def (so gene gets spattack boost as it wont want to stay in on ur terrak so it will most likely u turn out) with Close Combat, Stone Edge, X- Scissor, and Quick attack/ EQ.
    Anyway hope this helps!
    Good luck with the team!
  8. haxcho

    haxcho

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    So far, nobody used rock polish on genesect against me, but instead usually the choice scarf set, which is easily beaten by Latios & often just racks up hazard damage until everything can kill it, so I didn't really thought about it as such a big threat, to be honest. In fact, I simply forgot that it can run rock polish at all:(
    Though Rotom can survive a hit, retaliate with volt switch or hydro pump & afterwards, breloom can kill it off with mach punch, so it should be beatable. But that's definitely not perfect.
    Hmm, I'll look into your terrakion, though this would give me even less priority, since Quick Attack really is just good if the opponent has not much left. Also, I lose my only boosting sweeper, so wouldn't it make more sense to try the SD or even double dance set instead?
  9. EnterRAYZORS

    EnterRAYZORS

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
    Messages:
    97
    Yes i agree, i personally would go with the rock polish terrak lookin at your team, as late game it is a god. And RP genesect is much less common tbh so you probebly shouldnt worry about it too much, more just play smart against it, and always fear it?? Let me know!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)