ORAS OU Fighting with Pillows: Xatu Regen Semi-Stall (Peaked >1900)

[DoctorPhrog]

Fighting with Pillows: Xatu Regen Semi-Stall (Peaked >1900)

About the team


This is probably not the most serious-looking team you will see on this forum, but it works surprisingly well and has been a lot of fun to use. I consider this a semi-stall but it lacks some traditional components that semi-stall usually has in OU, including traditional hazard control and a cleric. Honestly, the team really adapts in play style depending on what kind of team you’re up against. Against opposing stall, the team plays much like another stall team. Against hyper offense, however, the team feels more like a bulky offense squad. The team requires predictions to work effectively but is able to succeed because the bulk it has allows you to choose when to play it safe and when to predict to get damage or gain momentum.


Now that this team is being posted, I suspect that several of its surprising sets will become somewhat less effective, but I have had fun this the team for long enough, and I feel it is worth sharing for its novelty and unexpected success. I know the word ‘stall’ is found in the title, but I hope you’ll reserve your judgment until you take a closer look at the squad—you might not hate it!

Teambuilding and Background

This team was originally built during the Mega Sableye suspect test. During that time two things were running rampant: Mega Medicham and hazard stacking. Therefore, I wanted to build a team that used Mega Medicham while it was so good and try out Xatu as a Mega Sableye surrogate that would throw off the numerous Ferrothorns, Scolipedes, and Skarmorys that were going unchecked. I had one other goal with the team which was to try out Ditto, a Pokemon which I liked but had never actually built a team with. So there I had the beginning of a very interesting team: Mega Medicham, Xatu, and Ditto.

Next, I knew I needed a good defensive core. The idea was if I had a good stall core, it would force opposing sweepers to set up and I could get a counter sweep with Ditto. My favorite defensive core is one I have been using for a couple of years: Alomomola + Tangrowth. People who have known me for some time will remember this core from a hard stall team I made with transform Mew and unaware encore Clefable. I was very comfortable with this pair so I stuck it on the team.

Lastly, I knew I needed one more Pokemon that would serve as a secondary SpDef pivot. Tangrowth is excellent, but with only regenerator as recovery, it is essential to have something else to switch into when necessary. At this point I was also lacking any fast Pokemon outside of Ditto. Assault Vest Tornadus-T was an easy choice and was a fun pick because of how gimmicky it made the team look with three regenerator Pokemon.

Testing out the team, I made tweaked sets and EVs until I ended up with essentially what is listed below, except I still had Medicham over Lopunny. The team performed alright but it was nothing special. A couple of months later, after Mega Sableye was voted to stay, I tried out the team again on a whim and was unimpressed with how Medicham was performing; mainly I needed more speed and something to deal with Mega Sableye. Lopunny filled a very similar role, but its speed came very welcome. Once I put Lopunny on the squad, I quickly grew tired of ice punch being a 2HKO on defensive rocky helmet Garchomp and Landorus-T and being annoyed by Slowbro, Zapdos, and Rotom-W. Toxic was a welcome and unique tweak that made all the difference.

The biggest drawback to the team was it lacked any reliable way to set up or remove hazards. However, I quickly grew accustomed to this and found myself getting hazards up with Xatu (and occasionally Ditto) more often than my opponents by baiting and predicting. For a semi-stall sort of team this is a very different approach and until you have used the team or seen it perform, this seems like a bigger flaw than it really is. Having used the team for a while now, I do not miss have conventional hazard control with this crew.


After finalizing the team, I raised a lot of eyebrows as I grew more comfortable with the Pokemon and began picking up a lot of points on the ladder. Eventually, I peaked in the top 20, and with an Elo above 1900, which I feel isn’t too bad for a Xatu team (ignore my very average GXE; I test a lot of weird teams on my main account). This peak is from several months back now, but I have been using the team again recently and it still seems to hold its own in the current metagame.

Proof of Peak

The Team

Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
-Scald
-Toxic
-Protect
-Wish
​

Alomomola is my physical wall and wish passer. It also serves as part 1 of my regen core. Scald is used to fish (pun intended) for burns; it’s measly SpAtk means it won’t be causing much damage otherwise. Toxic is used to wear down its switch-ins especially Zapdos, Rotom-W, and Lasi@s. Wish allows it to recover stall physical attackers as they slowly die from rocky helmet + poison/burn; wish also allows Alomomola to pass major recovery to its teammates. This can give its bulkier teammates much more comfortable switch-ins when Alomomla is forced out, and can bring back Lopunny or Ditto when the opponent has a more passive Pokemon on the field.

Rocky helmet is the preferred item to punish physical attackers, especially u-turners that would otherwise enjoy gaining momentum each time Alomomola switches in. Leftovers are not necessary because of the solid recovery it already gets from wish + protect and regenerator. Further, because Alomomola, is so passive rocky helmet allows it to dish out a bit more damage.

252 HP EVs are preferred to add to its physical bulk and provide the largest wishes possible. This also gives Alomomola an HP stat that is divisible by 3 to maximize HP restored from regenerator. As a dedicated physical wall, a bold nature is chosen and 252 EVs are put into defense; the remaining 4 EVs are tossed into speed to outspeed uninvested Scizor and Bisharp.

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 20 Def / 232 SpD / 12 Spe
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
Sassy Nature
-Giga Drain
-Hidden Power [Ice]
-Knock Off
-Earthquake
​

Tangrowth is my primary special wall and a surprisingly effective lure. It is also part 2 of my regen core. Giga drain is its go-to STAB move and is chosen over leaf storm because it has to be able to retain its SpAtk stat against sub + calm mind Keldeo. Earthquake allows Tangrowth to 2HKO Heatran. Knock off is knock off and should probably be found on every team somewhere. On Tangrowth, it is most useful for getting rid of leftovers on Heatran, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Clefable and other bulky Pokemon, as well getting rid of life orbs on Lati@s,Thundurus, and Tornadus, and choice scarves on Pokemon that would outspeed Lopunny and Tornadus. While hidden power [ice] is useful in general for Landorus-T, Garchomp, Lati@s, Thundurus, etc. it is most important on this set to deal with Gliscor, which would be problematic for this team otherwise when carrying SD + knock off.

Assault vest is used to bring Tangrowth’s inadequate SpDef stat up to something respectable. While it can’t take on repeated hits from heavy hitting special attackers, its ability to switch out into Tornadus-T, the other AV user on this team, allows Tangrowth to recover with regenerator and come back in. Further, its great coverage means that many special attackers will not be staying in against Tangrowth. Between Alomomola and Tangrowth, volt-turn cores are essentially shut down unless the opponent is able to get entry hazards up.

Because of Tangrowth’s naturally lack-luster SpDef, it needs substantial investment to pass as a special wall, even with its assault vest. 232 EVS go into SpDef and 244 HP EVs give the max HP number that is still divisible by 3 for efficient recovery from regenerator. 20 EVs go into defense to ensure a 3HKO from specs Keldeo's secret sword and 12 EVs in speed allow Tangrowth to outspeed uninvested Dragalge. A sassy nature is given to Tangrowth because it is a mixed attacker and does not need the extra speed for any particular reason and can benefit from keeping higher stats in both defense and SpDef. However 12 EVs are placed in speed to outpace min speed Dragalge.

Tornadus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 232 HP / 8 Def / 16 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
-Hurricane
-Heat Wave
-Iron Tail
-U-turn
​

Equipped with another assault vest, Tornadus-T is my secondary special pivot and part 3 of my regen core. Tornadus-T also supplies the team with some much-needed speed and offense momentum, as well as a great answer to M-Venusaur. Hurricane is a spammable STAB move with shaky accuracy, but a high base power and a 30% chance to confuse the opponent should it land. Heat wave is a necessary fire type move that the team otherwise lacks; this allows for large damage output on the likes of Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Scizor, all of which like to come in on predicted u-turns. U-turn is used for momentum and super effective damage on Lati@s. Despite adding another move with poor accuracy, iron tail is used in the last slot primarily as a lure to Mega Diancie, a Pokemon that this team does not appreciate switching into. Often with iron tail, I am able to pick off Mega Diancie turn one against opponents trying to get their mega evolution off early in the battle that perceive a favorable match-up against Tornadus-T. Additionally, iron tail can be used to get big damage on Mega Gardevoir, another Pokemon that is difficult to switch into, and is a 3HKO against defensive Clefable (meaning it can often beat Clefable if it is paralyzed or Tornadus gets defense drops).

Speed is maxed out on Tornadus-T in order to be able to speed tie with opposing Tornadus-T and outspeed the majority of special attackers in the tier. With its AV, 232 HP and 16 SpDef gives Tornadus-T great special bulk with an HP stat that is divisible by 3 (for regenerator) and has an odd HP number (to limit damage from stealth rocks). Running a hasty nature does noticeably decrease the ability of Tornadus-T to take physical hits, but 8 Def EVs guarantee Tornadus-T lives a life orb psyshock from Latios after stealth rock damage, which is really the hardest hit Tornadus-T should have to take on the physical side. Timid is not advised on this team because of the decreased damage output from iron tail on Clefable and u-turn on Lati@s—attacks that need to pack a punch.

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 200 HP / 232 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
-Air Slash
-Thunder Wave
-Haze
-Roost
​

Xatu is most unique member of this team, used solely for its magic bounce ability. Unlike using a defogger in this slot, a magic bounce user requires a better ability to predict the opponent, but is able to better preserve momentum because it never wastes a turn defogging. As one would expect, Xatu runs a support set including air slash as a descent STAB move that deters fighting and grass types from coming in and has a 30% chance to flinch the opponent. Thunder wave is used to slow opposing Pokemon down and can be used to para-flinch Pokemon with almost 50% success. Roost is necessary for reliable recovery, ensuring Xatu can live as long as possible. The last move, haze, is used to eliminate stat boosts on the opposing Pokemon, especially Clefable. Because moonblast is never a 2HKO on Xatu, it can repeatedly switch in on Clefable, attempt to get off a thunder wave and repeatedly use air slash and haze to prevent a sweep. Additionally, haze eliminates SpAtk drops from moonblast on Xatu and can ensure its damage output does not drop. Xatu requires leftovers because it will often be taking u-turns from Landorus-T in attempts to prevent stealth rocks and is not equipped with the automatic recovery from regenerator that Alomomola receives.

Xatu is naturally frail and requires substantial investments in HP and defense to work effectively. The 56 speed EVs are used to outspeed univested base 100s (e.g. defensive Mew and SpDef Jirachi) and max speed, non-boosting nature base 65s (e.g. Bisharp and Scizor). 200 EVs go into HP to maximize recovery from leftovers and minimizes damage from stealth rocks. The remaining 252 EVs go into defense with a bold nature so it will take as little as possible from physical attacks. It should be noted that even with this investment, Xatu does not make an effective wall, but it is bulky enough to take less than 50% from the attacks it needs to (including Ferrothorn’s gyro ball, Clefable’s moonblast, and Skarmory’s brave bird) so it can reliably prevent hazards and calm mind sweeps.

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Happiness: 127
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
-Transform
​

Generally, Ditto fulfills a similar niche on this semi-stall team that Quagsire would fill on a hard stall team. What I mean by that is it prevents set-up sweepers from sweeping. Whereas unaware Quagsire (or Clefable) achieve this by ignoring boosts and walling, Ditto punishes opposing Pokemon that set up by threatening a counter sweep. While this is its primary function, under certain circumstances Ditto also serves a number of other roles on this particular team including: hazard setter, hazard remover, cleric, and back up switch-in for Heatran, Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Amoongus, and volt-switchers. It also can help counter stall teams by switching into a knock off from Mega Sableye and PP stalling it through repeatedly switching out and back in. I have found it to be an extremely versatile Pokemon and it seems to play an important role in every battle I have.

Here I’m about to go on a rant about how to properly train a Ditto. I have found very few people actually know how to go about this and why it matters, so I have included a pretty in-depth description. If you don’t care about this feel free to skip it (but I know you see that Happiness stat and are intrigued).

(Edit: scroll through the discussion below for some really interesting discussion about Ditto between @dsm77773 and myself)

To the beginner Ditto user, it seems like there is little thought that should go into it: give it a choice scarf and it’s good, right? Well, not exactly. It’s well-known that in most circumstances, the only stat that matters is the HP stat because with imposter, Ditto will copy all of the other stats of the opposing Pokemon upon switch-in (note: Ditto copies the stats of the Pokemon and Ditto’s personal EVs/IVs/Nature are not factored in once transformed). Because of this, it is best to put in 252 EVs into HP, maximizing the damage Ditto can take and being divisible by 3 to maximize HP gained from transforming into a regenerator Pokemon). Despite being usually useless, 252 EVs should go into SpDef and 4 in defense. The only times these values will come into play is when Ditto’s imposter ability fails because the opposing Pokemon is (1) behind a substitute, (2) already transformed into another Pokemon through imposter or transform, or (3) disguised as another Pokemon through the ability Illusion. While you will know when the first two scenarios have occurred, and you can avoid going into Ditto, occasionally you can get tricked by a Zoroark and Ditto’s imposter will fail. Because Zoroarks are generally special attackers, Ditto should have SpDef investment. Additionally, a sassy nature and 0 speed IVs is chosen to move second in a Ditto v. Ditto scenario where the game will generally be decided by whose Ditto transforms in the the other (the transformed Ditto will usually lose because it will run out of PP and die to struggle recoil). 0 IVs are used in the speed stat is also useful for determining its Hidden Power type. When Ditto transforms into an opponent with hidden power, the move’s type will still depend on the ‘natural’ IVs of your Ditto. This combination of IVs gives Ditto HP [ice], which is the most beneficial type in most cases.

Lastly, the happiness stat of Ditto should also be considered. While most players will run either min (0) or max (252) happiness to maximize damage when copying Pokemon with frustration or return, respectively, this leaves you guessing wrong about half of the time. To mitigate this, it is highly advised to run a mid-ground (127) happiness stat. While the damage output is considerably less, Ditto just need to be able for revenge kill or force a switch, at least on this team. With a mid-ground happiness stat, Ditto can accomplish this against the three Pokemon in OU that generally run Return/Frustration: Mega Lopunny, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Altaria. Mega Lopunny is not a problem as Ditto beats it with a faster high jump kick. Mega Pinsir and Mega Lopunny are both forced out or KO’ed because they are taking super effective damage from their own aerilate or pixilate-boosted attacks, thus the maximum damage output is not necessary. At 127 happiness, you may miss out on a counter-sweep, but it’s a much safer option and will serve you fine in almost all cases.

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Fake Out
-Frustration
-High Jump Kick
-Toxic
​

Mega Lopunny is chosen for the mega slot because of I needed access to a Pokemon with strong and fast unresisted STAB moves. Mega Lopunny ensures that I am able to revenge kill many opposing offensive Pokemon after I am forced to sac something. Mega Lopunny’s fighting type also give me a much needed response to Tyranitar and SD Bisharp that can be annoying for this team otherwise. Fake out provides a safe and reliable way to get off the mega evolution while dishing out some damage. It also provides some much need priority on the team to pick off weakened scarfers or Pokemon with speed boosts. High jump kick is used for an extremely strong attack with frustration being used to hit what HJK does not. Toxic is used in the last moveslot. I have had much more success with toxic than ice punch, power-up punch, or quick attack, as it gives me a way to whittle down bulky Pokemon that like to switch in to Mega Lopunny including Slowbro, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Mew, Garchomp, and Landorus-T—and did I mention it allows Mega Lopunny to OHKO Shedinja!?

The EVs on Mega Lopunny are fairly straight forward, with maximum investment in speed and attack with a jolly nature to ensure it outspeeds the vast majority of the tier. The 4 EVs in defense are added to take a little bit less from opposing sucker punches (especially from SD Bisharp). As a final note, be sure to have the Limber ability prior to mega evolution to occasionally avoid a paralysis from a predicted thunder wave or static Zapdos.

Threats

I have not found any match ups that this team automatically loses to, but there are definitely certain Pokemon that this team struggles to play against. Click below to read about these threats.

Threat List

Mega Charizard Y (major threat)

Why it’s a threat: Mega Charizard Y can 2HKO the entire team. Further, I do not have stealth rocks to wear it down.

How to deal with it: Mega Lopunny can revenge Mega Charizard Y, however, the opponent will likely have a defensive wall to stop this. If the opposing Charizard has roost, then Ditto can switch in and spam roost until the sun turns run out, at which point Alomomola and Tornadus-T can handle it better. Unfortunately, spamming roost will not work if the opponent has ancient power or they are able pursuit trap Ditto (especially with Tyranitar).

Mega Heracross (major threat)

Why it’s a threat: Mega Heracross can 2HKO the entire team. Further, if it has substitute, then Ditto cannot transform into it.

How to deal with it: Often players will bring in Mega Heracross on Mega Lopunny (to revenge kill). It is normally advised to sacrifice Mega Lopunny for damage, especially because players will often over predict and go for rock blast, pin missile, substitute, or swords dance. You can punish these over predictions with big damage and make it easier to deal with. If Heracross comes in on Alomomola or Tangrowth, sacrificing a Pokemon is likely necessary (sometimes two if they substitute). You can often revenge with Ditto.

Gyarados (major threat)/ Mega Gyarados (minor threat)

Why it’s a threat: Substitute sets can use Alomomola as setup fodder. Behind a substitute, Ditto cannot transform and the whole team becomes susceptible to a sweep.

How to deal with it: Tangrowth needs to be switched into immediately on Gyarados and should spam giga drain. If it is the non-mega set with bounce, Gyarados becomes much more dangerous as it it can hit Tangrowth for STAB super-effective damage. Switching between Alomola and Tangrowth can build up some rocky helmet damage, but can also result in allowing Gyarados to set up more, especially with leftovers recovery. If you ever have an opponent bring in Gyarados on Mega Lopunny to get off an intimidate and attempt a sweep, it is important to go for toxic immediately to stop a potential sweep.

Tyranitar / Bisharp / Weavile (minor threats)

Why they’re threats: These Pokemon are not threats to the team as a whole by themselves, as Alomomola can generally wall all of them and Mega Lopunny can OHKO all of them, but they can open up holes in the team for other threats to flourish. These dark types can pursuit trap Xatu and/or Ditto which can greatly hinder the team. If Xatu is taken out with pursuit then the team becomes very prone to being overwhelmed by entry hazards because, unless Ditto finds a way, hazards cannot be removed once they are set up. If Ditto is taken out, then the team is much more prone to being swept.

How to deal with it: Aggressive players will often switch a bulky hazard setter into Mega Lopunny and then double out into a pursuit trapper to catch a predicted Xatu. If you can catch them with a high jump kick, the game gets a lot easier. If Xatu does go down, Ditto can try to match the entry hazards they get up or use their own defog/rapid spin against them.

Mega Medicham (minor threat)

Why it’s a threat: Mega Medicham can 2HKO the entire team.

How to deal with it: Xatu 4x resists HJK and can be used as a pivot into Alomomola (baiting an ice punch). Winning 50-50s against Mega Medicham can result in protecting on HJKs and causing recoil damage, and allowing Alomomola to switch out and back in to gain regenerator health and punishing mistakes with additional rocky helmet damage. When in trouble, sacrificing a Pokemon allows Ditto to turn into a monstrous scarfed Mega Medicham that can easily net one or two kills of its own.

Mega Pinsir (minor threat)

Why it’s a threat: Return just misses out on a 2HKO on Alomomola, but Alomomola can be set up fodder for it.

How to deal with it: Switch in Alomomola immediately on a Mega Pinsir, then use toxic (going for scald burns is unreliable, while toxic will put Mega Pinsir permanently on a timer). Alomomola will survive a +2 return/frustration. After Pinsir is toxiced, you can protect once, then sacrifice an unneeded Pokemon. Finally go into Ditto (usually) or Mega Lopunny (sometimes, if fake out + toxic damage will kill) to revenge kill.

Heatran (minor threat)

Why it’s a threat: Tornadus-T, Alomomola, and Ditto can normally switch into Heatran, but do not threaten it back. Additionally, lava plume can threaten burns on Xatu and hinder its ability to prevent stealth rocks effectively.

How to deal with it: Aside from Mega Lopunny being able to OHKO it, Tangrowth can hit Heatran for massive damage with earthquake and can take 1-2 hits from Heatran with its assault vest on. Ditto can also normally switch in and scout Heatran’s moveset. It may also be worth exchanging stealth rocks in some cases. Additionally, if the opposing Heatran is carrying it, Ditto can threaten a KO with earth power.

Replays

Since I have been using this team for some time now, I have accumulated a fair number of replays against different types of teams ranging from hard stall to hyper offense and everything in between.

Replays

Winning a room tour by playing around Mega Medicham, Volcanion, and CM Clefable:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-361469597

Taking down set up spam against good guy battler, Johnny Tots:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-351058543

Ditto putting in work against Mega Heracross and Heatran:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-347712458

200 turn battle with clutch Mega Lopunny predictions and Ditto shutting down Mega Charizard Y:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-360438094

Beating THAT hazard stack team at its own game:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-360822527

Beating bird spam for the 1,000,000th time:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-375893155

The only time I’d recommend watching a battle with Shedinja stall:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-398248160

Beating that Terrakion + Seismitoed + Static Zapdos team:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-389822958

I think I inspired xtraShine to give Xatu a try (:
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-347301508

Ditto and Xatu annoy stall (long battle and the end of the replay is corrupted, but you get the idea):
replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-383141095

Importable

Click below to import the team! I hope you enjoy it!

Importable

Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
-Scald
-Toxic
-Protect
-Wish

Tangrowth @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 20 Def / 232 SpD / 12 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
Sassy Nature
-Giga Drain
-Hidden Power [Ice]
-Knock Off
-Earthquake

Tornadus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 232 HP / 8 Def / 16 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
-Hurricane
-Heat Wave
-Iron Tail
-U-turn

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 200 HP / 232 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
-Air Slash
-Thunder Wave
-Haze
-Roost

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Happiness: 127
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
-Transform

Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Fake Out
-Frustration
-High Jump Kick
-Toxic

Edits:
-changed Ditto's IVs and nature to minimize speed and give 31 Atk IVs with a neutral nature for Struggle damage (thanks @dsm77773 for the great discussion about this!)
-moved 8 EVs from SpDef to Def on Tangrowth to avoid a possible 2HKO from specs Keldeo's SS; thanks for the suggestion @Professional2341!)
-moved 20 EVs from defense to speed on Xatu to outspeed 32 speed Jirachi; thanks @sedertz!)
-12 EVs moved from SpDef to speed on Tangrowth to outspeed neutral nature, uninvested Dragalgae; thanks @Aubisio!)

 

[kek123]

Hey this isnt a rate but something to do with you tittle that bugged me in the bracket its says (peaked >1900) which is wrong since > is the mathematical sign for less than so your tittle is saying peaked less then 1900 I know your using it for an arrow but it may be confusing for some and slightly bothered me especially when you peaked higher then 1900 xD


E:before making this epic mistake I though I was good at maths lol ,that what i get for trying to correct people on no sleep xD

Also very nice and creative team!

 

[RufflesPro]

Hey there I really like your team. One look at your team and I can easily see how this team has really good chemistry and would require you to use it a bunch of times to get used to it and use it effectively.

There's nothing much to say, but I think your Tangrowth's EVs can be slightly improved. Actually, your Tangrowth right now has a small chance of being 2HKO'd by Keldeo's Specs Secret Sword, but it becomes marginally big with rocks up. So, I recommend using 244 HP / 16 Def / 248 SpD with the same nature, as that allows Tangrowth to 100% avoid the 2HKO w/o rocks and decreases the chance of being 2HKO'd with rocks up by about 5%. However, if you really want to avoid the 2HKO with rocks up you can use Relaxed with 56 EVs in Defense, although I doubt that you're willing sacrifice that much bulk.

Now I have a couple of suggestions that I think you should try out. The first one is to try running a bit more SpD on Alomomola and trying Mirror Coat over Toxic. You can take a Solar Beam from Zard Y from full (64 HP / 192 SpD is enough for example to tank from Timid or perhaps 88 HP / 252 SpD to tank from Modest) and KO back while still living. Another option I want to suggest is to try Heal Bell on Mega Lopunny. While Mega Lopunny is not the best cleric, it certainly wouldn't be bad to get Mega Lopunny to heal bell even if it's 1-2 times a game. While missing out on Toxic or Fake Out can be annoying, Heal Bell might be a good option as your team is prone to status.

 

[power]

kek123, he's right. > is the greater than sign.

As a side note, I would take 32 evs out of xatu's defense and put them in speed, to outspeed 32 speed jirachi so you won't get flinched.

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Hey this isnt a rate but something to do with you tittle that bugged me in the bracket its says (peaked >1900) which is wrong since > is the mathematical sign for less than so your tittle is saying peaked less then 1900 I know your using it for an arrow but it may be confusing for some and slightly bothered me especially when you peaked higher then 1900 xD

Also very nice and creative team!

Thanks! I am glad you liked the team! > is a 'greater than' sign though :-P

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Hey there I really like your team. One look at your team and I can easily see how this team has really good chemistry and would require you to use it a bunch of times to get used to it and use it effectively.

There's nothing much to say, but I think your Tangrowth's EVs can be slightly improved. Actually, your Tangrowth right now has a small chance of being 2HKO'd by Keldeo's Specs Secret Sword, but it becomes marginally big with rocks up. So, I recommend using 244 HP / 16 Def / 248 SpD with the same nature, as that allows Tangrowth to 100% avoid the 2HKO w/o rocks and decreases the chance of being 2HKO'd with rocks up by about 5%. However, if you really want to avoid the 2HKO with rocks up you can use Relaxed with 56 EVs in Defense, although I doubt that you're willing sacrifice that much bulk.

Now I have a couple of suggestions that I think you should try out. The first one is to try running a bit more SpD on Alomomola and trying Mirror Coat over Toxic. You can take a Solar Beam from Zard Y from full (64 HP / 192 SpD is enough for example to tank from Timid or perhaps 88 HP / 252 SpD to tank from Modest) and KO back while still living. Another option I want to suggest is to try Heal Bell on Mega Lopunny. While Mega Lopunny is not the best cleric, it certainly wouldn't be bad to get Mega Lopunny to heal bell even if it's 1-2 times a game. While missing out on Toxic or Fake Out can be annoying, Heal Bell might be a good option as your team is prone to status.

I will normally switch out into Alomomola or Tornadus-T on a Keldeo if locked into SS and it has a chance to KO Tangrowth on the second hit. But that being said, avoiding the 2HKO is a good benchmark to hit and a worthwhile change. Thank you!

I do not like the SpDef Almomola change though. Alo is this teams only good physical wall and reducing its physical bulk this much will open it up to being 2HKO by M-Pinsir (or OHKO'ed by +2). I really need to be able to tank these hits to get a toxic off to ensure it does not sweep through the rest of my team. It would be nice to have a good lure for Charizard Y, but I don't think it is worth the sacrifice against most teams. Additionally, toxic is REALLY nice to wear a down Zapdos switching in (which isn't a threat, but can be annoying with heat wave against Tangrowth).

Heal bell on M-Lopunny is an idea I have toyed around with but not actually used. I don't think it is a good idea to give up fake out, but if you'd like to try it over toxic, it may be nice. Without toxic Shedinja, Slowbro, Lando-T, Garchomp, etc. are going to be bigger nuisances, but none of these are real threats--toxic just helps take them down more efficiently. So maybe worth trying.

Thanks so much for your input! I really appreciate your time!

 

[DoctorPhrog]

kek123, he's right. > is the greater than sign.

As a side note, I would take 32 evs out of xatu's defense and put them in speed, to outspeed 32 speed jirachi so you won't get flinched.

At first, I didn't think it was worth taking more out of Xatu's already lackluster defense. I will normally switch Alo into Jirachi to punish it with rocky helmet damage, but now I actually think you're right. SpDef Jirachi's commonly run stealth rocks and having Xatu speed creep those with a bit of investment sure would be nice. That being said, you added a bit more than is needed to hit this benchmark. I would go with a final spread of 200 HP / 232 Def / 76 Spe to outspeed 32 speed Jirachi (maybe 4-8 more in speed if you want to creep up a smidge more). Thank you for this suggestion; good eye!

 

[dsm77773]

Not really relevant, but on Ditto 1 Attack / 0 Speed IVs still give you HP Ice. Together with a Relaxed Nature, this allows you to beat opposing Ditto 1v1 in the PP war (opposing Ditto will transform first and its Transform will then have only 5 PP so it'll Struggle first). Also run 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 filler (not Spe) EVs to take minimum damage from said Struggle.

 

[Mon of Steel]

Funnily enough, I fought this team 2 times. Both times I beat it. This team sucks. (Naw, I'm just kidding.)

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-360659846 (yea, IK, my team sucks ballz)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-395707985 (I was pretty mindblown when I saw the team a second time, BTW the Slaking team isn't mine, it's Klutverde's.)

Admittedly enough, it's an interesting concept. I will say though, that it's the weirdest Stall that I've ever seen.

Although normally I wouldn't rate a Stall team (it's not my field of expertise, and I don't like it), I'll make an exception here because I'm amused by the team.

1) Why is Torn-T on the team? You already have one AV user. Is there a mon that Tangrowth can't switch into that I'm missing, or some other reason I don't see? (It's probable, I'm on mobile rn.) I would think that a LO + Taunt Torn-T would help your matchup vs. enemy Stall, or replacing Torn-T altogether would do something.
2) Tangrowth can switch into Mega Diancie, I don't think it threatens you at all. I personally was never a huge fan of Iron Tail Torn-T (because dat accuracy), or Iron Tail in general, so I would replace Iron Tail w/ something else. IDK that's just me.

Not much of a rate, I'll update later if I can.

 

[kek123]

Thanks! I am glad you liked the team! > is a 'greater than' sign though :-P

kek123, he's right. > is the greater than sign.

As a side note, I would take 32 evs out of xatu's defense and put them in speed, to outspeed 32 speed jirachi so you won't get flinched.

O'yea lol I feel dumb now xD

also the team is a bit weak to clefable as the only way to stop is playing of there choke as iron tail torn-t isnt the best way to deal with it and you just struggle with fairys in general
0 Atk Tornadus-T Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

so I have two possible solution to this one being changing mega lopunny to a bulky SD Mega scizor the second being changing Dito to heatran just a couple of idea .I think Mega scizor would go nice as it fit your team better and its defensive stall ish style better.

 

[ruru]

Truly an interesting team.

I tried this team on the ladder I noticed several major problems with Clefable magic+cm and M-Gardevoir.

For M-Gardevoir: Tornadus can only revenge kill it because it suffers pressure about Stealth and status. (Heatran setter very ez)
Clefable is very annoying for this team, council to find a solution to it.

I also think that volturn core are another annoying.

I think it's a good team after all. With some threat you must play aggressive.

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Not really relevant, but on Ditto 1 Attack / 0 Speed IVs still give you HP Ice. Together with a Relaxed Nature, this allows you to beat opposing Ditto 1v1 in the PP war (opposing Ditto will transform first and its Transform will then have only 5 PP so it'll Struggle first). Also run 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 filler (not Spe) EVs to take minimum damage from said Struggle.

Really good points and not something I had considered. I like the min speed, but I'm not sure it is worth dropping the 4 EVs in HP. With 252 HP EVs Ditto sits at a nice round 300. When transforming into something with regenerator this allows ditto to gain back the max amount of health. This scenario comes up a lot more than struggle, so I think I will keep it. The min speed, however, is clever. I'll make that change, but will run a sassy nature to maximize SpDef as I think it is more important against Zoroarks.

Final spread of:
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD and
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 0 Spe
Nature: Sassy

I'll give you credit when I make the edits to the OP

 

[dsm77773]

Really good points and not something I had considered. I like the min speed, but I'm not sure it is worth dropping the 4 EVs in HP. With 252 HP EVs Ditto sits at a nice round 300. When transforming into something with regenerator this allows ditto to gain back the max amount of health. This scenario comes up a lot more than struggle, so I think I will keep it. The min speed, however, is clever. I'll make that change, but will run a sassy nature to maximize SpDef as I think it is more important against Zoroarks.

Final spread of:
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD and
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 0 Spe
Nature: Sassy

I'll give you credit when I make the edits to the OP

Oh, and you might as well run 31 Attack for maximum Struggle damage. Also if you run 31 or 1 Attack, you can run 31 Defense IVs and keep HP Ice.
May I ask why SpDef? Yeah, it lets you tank more hits from Zoroarks, but a) Zoroark is very, very rare:
| 158 | Zoroark | 0.255% | (August 2016 usage stats)
b) Zoroark still forces you out, as Ditto has no way to break the Illusion anyway, so it's left spamming Transform until it gets KOed. You can identify Zoroark when Imposter does not activate, and then react properly, but Ditto isn't taking hits from Zoroark.
Also 248HP EVs reduces Stealth Rock damage. Anyway you are just dropping 1HP (299 max) so I think it's worth it.

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Funnily enough, I fought this team 2 times. Both times I beat it. This team sucks. (Naw, I'm just kidding.)

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-360659846 (yea, IK, my team sucks ballz)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-395707985 (I was pretty mindblown when I saw the team a second time, BTW the Slaking team isn't mine, it's Klutverde's.)

Admittedly enough, it's an interesting concept. I will say though, that it's the weirdest Stall that I've ever seen.

Although normally I wouldn't rate a Stall team (it's not my field of expertise, and I don't like it), I'll make an exception here because I'm amused by the team.

1) Why is Torn-T on the team? You already have one AV user. Is there a mon that Tangrowth can't switch into that I'm missing, or some other reason I don't see? (It's probable, I'm on mobile rn.) I would think that a LO + Taunt Torn-T would help your matchup vs. enemy Stall, or replacing Torn-T altogether would do something.
2) Tangrowth can switch into Mega Diancie, I don't think it threatens you at all. I personally was never a huge fan of Iron Tail Torn-T (because dat accuracy), or Iron Tail in general, so I would replace Iron Tail w/ something else. IDK that's just me.

Not much of a rate, I'll update later if I can.

Lol. I am glad you liked it... or at least thought it was interesting xD

1) Torn is on the team for some much needed speed and a secondary response to special attackers. Bc tangrowth is AV, it can get worn down by repeated special attacks. Having Torn as my back up gives me a great way to maintain momentum. With this team the goal of the triple regen core is all about being able to switch in and out and gaining recovery each time. Torn relieves a lot of pressure on Tang and with u-turn allows it to keep pressure on the opponent.

2) M-Diancie still hits Tangrowth pretty hard; it's able to 3hko it before tang can 2hko it (assuming you switch in on the first hit). But it's also VERY nice to dish out large damage on M-Gard (72.5 - 85.4%) and OK damage on clefable (32 - 38.1% which is 99% chance to 3hko if you knock off its leftovers...this comes up more than you'd think). I know it's shaky accuracy is a large draw back, but having it has made a lot of games much easier to win. And honestly... I don't need any other coverage. Another knock off user isn't needed and its other options (sludge wave, grass knot, etc.) are not as useful imo.

Thanks for the rate! I really appreciate your input :)

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Truly an interesting team.

I tried this team on the ladder I noticed several major problems with Clefable magic+cm and M-Gardevoir.

For M-Gardevoir: Tornadus can only revenge kill it because it suffers pressure about Stealth and status. (Heatran setter very ez)
Clefable is very annoying for this team, council to find a solution to it.

I also think that volturn core are another annoying.

I think it's a good team after all. With some threat you must play aggressive.

M-Gard was not listed as a threat, but I suppose could be considered a minor one. Usually one u-turn + iron tail from torn will take it out. I switch in on hyper voice and u-turn out the first time to tangrowth. switch back to torn and iron tail the second time for the KO. they usually will not go for psyshock either time, but if they do, it can be bad. Also worth noting, if things get bad, you can go into ditto which comfortable lives any attack from Gard and can dish out a hyper voice or psyshock back.

Clef should not be a problem, but you have to play it right. Don't let it come in on a toxic or scald (fearing burn) from alomomola bc you need to get it t-waved from xatu. go directly into xatu and get it paralyzed (they usually stay in bc no one really expects t-wave from it). then you can spam air slash, roost, and haze. When you get the chance knocking off its leftovers will make it much easier to wear down. if things get bad, torn also does good damage with iron tail, especially with its 30% chance to lower clef's defense. I'll admit this team LOOKS like it just gets 6-0'ed by clef, but once you learn how to play around it, you shouldn't have a problem with it :]

Volt-turn should be your bread and butter to play against. You'll need to keep rocks off the field, but if you do, then just switching between alomomla and tangrowth hard counters any volt-turn core. U-turners quickly get worn down with rocky helmet damage and as soon as they change up moves you can click knock off with tangrowth or toxic with alomomola to punish them.

Definitely a team that takes practice. Even for me, if i haven't used it in a while, it's hard to play with. But it seems to always have a win condition. Thanks for you comments! I really appreciate it! :D

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Oh, and you might as well run 31 Attack for maximum Struggle damage. Also if you run 31 or 1 Attack, you can run 31 Defense IVs and keep HP Ice.
May I ask why SpDef? Yeah, it lets you tank more hits from Zoroarks, but a) Zoroark is very, very rare:
| 158 | Zoroark | 0.255% | (August 2016 usage stats)
b) Zoroark still forces you out, as Ditto has no way to break the Illusion anyway, so it's left spamming Transform until it gets KOed. You can identify Zoroark when Imposter does not activate, and then react properly, but Ditto isn't taking hits from Zoroark.
Also 248HP EVs reduces Stealth Rock damage. Anyway you are just dropping 1HP (299 max) so I think it's worth it.

I'd prefer not to run max atk IVs in case of a stray foul play from Zoroark (rare move on a rare mon, but I've seen it... used on a scarfed special attacking set for coverage against dragon dancers I guess). And to me, if you are trying to dish out extra damage from struggle then it is counter productive to run min speed... I guess it sort of comes down to a preference but getting a kill with struggle with an untransformed Ditto is, in my opinion, less likely to occur and a foul play from Zoroark.

Ditto is not taking repeated attacks from Zoroark, but it allows you take take less damage on a mistake. You may switch into it once, see that you messed up, and be forced to switch out. If Ditto has SpDef investment, it will take a lot less from its attacks. Zoroark is indeed very uncommon, but honestly this is the only scenario I have taken damage with ditto in its non-transformed state (barring a time when ditto was my last pokemon and the opponent was behind a substitute).

Consider this scenario: let's say, the opponent goes into zoroark on a tangrowth, disguised as amoongus (amoongus forces tangrowth out and I often come in with ditto as a pivot to avoid spore on tornadus) then as zoroark goes for sludge bomb (bc tangrowth was in) ditto's imposter fails and ditto take damage. I'm obviously switching out next turn, but I will take a lot less damage with the special defense investment.

As for stealth rock damage, I think you're wrong there. 300 is not divisible by 8. Whether ditto has a 299 or 300 HP stat it will take 1/8 max health rounded down. In this case, it's taking the same damage regardless:

299/8 = 37.375 --> 37 HP
300/8 = 37.5 --> 37 HP

Unless I'm wrong, I think the odd HP rule is more of a generalization bc whether a pokemon takes 1/32, 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 or 1/2 an odd HP stat will always work for rounding... but it's not always necessary.

For the record, this has been the most satisfying discussion about pokemon I've ever taken part of. I think between the two of us, we should write the pokedex entry for ditto. lol :D

 

[Samoyed]

Hi! Thor team os really great, won a few battles with it. Just one really small thing: I would suggest running 8 Speed EVs on Tangrowth because it's quite popular right now, and most people speed creep. This allows you to creep the creepers, along with outrunning Diancie and TrickTini (out of TR), and speed tying Dragalge. That's all, really solid team in general!

 

[dsm77773]

I'd prefer not to run max atk IVs in case of a stray foul play from Zoroark (rare move on a rare mon, but I've seen it... used on a scarfed special attacking set for coverage against dragon dancers I guess). And to me, if you are trying to dish out extra damage from struggle then it is counter productive to run min speed... I guess it sort of comes down to a preference but getting a kill with struggle with an untransformed Ditto is, in my opinion, less likely to occur and a foul play from Zoroark.

Ditto is not taking repeated attacks from Zoroark, but it allows you take take less damage on a mistake. You may switch into it once, see that you messed up, and be forced to switch out. If Ditto has SpDef investment, it will take a lot less from its attacks. Zoroark is indeed very uncommon, but honestly this is the only scenario I have taken damage with ditto in its non-transformed state (barring a time when ditto was my last pokemon and the opponent was behind a substitute).

Consider this scenario: let's say, the opponent goes into zoroark on a tangrowth, disguised as amoongus (amoongus forces tangrowth out and I often come in with ditto as a pivot to avoid spore on tornadus) then as zoroark goes for sludge bomb (bc tangrowth was in) ditto's imposter fails and ditto take damage. I'm obviously switching out next turn, but I will take a lot less damage with the special defense investment.

As for stealth rock damage, I think you're wrong there. 300 is not divisible by 8. Whether ditto has a 299 or 300 HP stat it will take 1/8 max health rounded down. In this case, it's taking the same damage regardless:

299/8 = 37.375 --> 37 HP
300/8 = 37.5 --> 37 HP

Unless I'm wrong, I think the odd HP rule is more of a generalization bc whether a pokemon takes 1/32, 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 or 1/2 an odd HP stat will always work for rounding... but it's not always necessary.

I was convinced 37.5 HP was rounded to 38, but just for the sake of it I've tested it and you're right. I don't think the replay matters but anyway: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-414499529 Ditto took 37HP damage from Stealth Rock
I get the point of the SpDef EVs, but Ditto shouldn't directly switch into anything anyway.
On 1 vs 31 Attack IVs: Zoroark is really uncommon, Foul Play Zoroark is almost non-existant. Now imagine the following situation: the opponent is as clever as you and runs minimum Speed on his/her Ditto, and you win the speed tie and happen to Transform first. In such scenario, you'll want to do as much damage with Struggle as possible:
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 22-27 (7.3 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 17-21 (5.6 - 7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
First calc is with 31 Attack IVs, second with 0. Aerial Ace cause you can't select Struggle in the PS! damage calc, I adjusted the BP accordingly so it's a physical, unSTABed, neutral 50BP move.
You still don't do shit, but I think it's more useful than hoping to ever find a Foul Play Zoroark.

For the record, this has been the most satisfying discussion about pokemon I've ever taken part of. I think between the two of us, we should write the pokedex entry for ditto. lol :D

I'll ask Game Freak

 

[DoctorPhrog]

I was convinced 37.5 HP was rounded to 38, but just for the sake of it I've tested it and you're right. I don't think the replay matters but anyway: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-414499529 Ditto took 37HP damage from Stealth Rock
I get the point of the SpDef EVs, but Ditto shouldn't directly switch into anything anyway.
On 1 vs 31 Attack IVs: Zoroark is really uncommon, Foul Play Zoroark is almost non-existant. Now imagine the following situation: the opponent is as clever as you and runs minimum Speed on his/her Ditto, and you win the speed tie and happen to Transform first. In such scenario, you'll want to do as much damage with Struggle as possible:
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 22-27 (7.3 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 17-21 (5.6 - 7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
First calc is with 31 Attack IVs, second with 0. Aerial Ace cause you can't select Struggle in the PS! damage calc, I adjusted the BP accordingly so it's a physical, unSTABed, neutral 50BP move.
You still don't do shit, but I think it's more useful than hoping to ever find a Foul Play Zoroark.
I'll ask Game Freak

Hi! Thor team os really great, won a few battles with it. Just one really small thing: I would suggest running 8 Speed EVs on Tangrowth because it's quite popular right now, and most people speed creep. This allows you to creep the creepers, along with outrunning Diancie and TrickTini (out of TR), and speed tying Dragalge. That's all, really solid team in general!

Glad you liked the team, Aubisio! :D

Personally, I would rather keep the spread without the 8 speed EVs... very understandable suggestion, but my team has a pretty easy time switching in on opposing Tangrowths. But if you prefer the speed creep, do it! xD

But as far as outspeeding Diancie, this would only be outrunning neutral nature, 31 IV, uninvested which is not really found in OU. And Tang is never outspeeding even a speed dropping nature with 0 IVs victini (maybe once it's at -1 from v-create I suppose). Speed tying (or going up to 12 EVs to outpace) uninvested neutral nature dragalge does sound nice... actually that sounds very nice. Sold. 12 EVs on tangrowth it is. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

 

[DoctorPhrog]

I was convinced 37.5 HP was rounded to 38, but just for the sake of it I've tested it and you're right. I don't think the replay matters but anyway: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-414499529 Ditto took 37HP damage from Stealth Rock
I get the point of the SpDef EVs, but Ditto shouldn't directly switch into anything anyway.
On 1 vs 31 Attack IVs: Zoroark is really uncommon, Foul Play Zoroark is almost non-existant. Now imagine the following situation: the opponent is as clever as you and runs minimum Speed on his/her Ditto, and you win the speed tie and happen to Transform first. In such scenario, you'll want to do as much damage with Struggle as possible:
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 22-27 (7.3 - 9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 17-21 (5.6 - 7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
First calc is with 31 Attack IVs, second with 0. Aerial Ace cause you can't select Struggle in the PS! damage calc, I adjusted the BP accordingly so it's a physical, unSTABed, neutral 50BP move.
You still don't do shit, but I think it's more useful than hoping to ever find a Foul Play Zoroark.
I'll ask Game Freak

Maybe I'm missing exactly the set up you're envisioning, but I can only see this happening given the following:

For this scenario of Ditto v Ditto struggle war, they must be the last two Pokemon, caused from of a double down the turn before (hence why neither player would switch out). We will assume both are at full health for this.

On the turn both click transform, it will fail for whoever loses the speed tie and goes second. The important part here is only one Ditto transforms. The winner of the game will almost certainly be whoever lost this speed tie and did not transform. At this point, both will click transform for 5 turns (each time it will fail), then on the 6th the one that actually transformed will go down to struggle, while the other is free to continue using transform PP. For the next 4-5 turns (4 if Ditto has an HP stat that is a multiple of 4; 5 if it does not) the transformed Ditto will lost 25% of its HP (rounded down). Even if the transformed Ditto gets max rolls, and has a 299 HP stat (giving it the extra hit), it will not do enough, even to a 252 HP / 4 Def opposing Ditto, for the opponent before feinting from struggle recoil... it does have a small chance with 5 critical hits or 4 critical hits on 5 max rolls, but I'm going to call those negligible odds lol. This is why I am compelled by your reason to run min speed, but even if the Zoroark scenario is very, very, very rare, I don't think attack will ever play a roll.

A few more calcs to show you what I mean (I used the same aerial ace technique as you):
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto: 36-43 (12 - 14.3%) -- possible 7HKO
14.3% damage x 5 turns of struggle = 71.5%

And with 5 critical hits (literally less than 1 in a million chance):
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto on a critical hit: 54-64 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO

Because of this, if you want to do some descent damage with Struggle to an opposing 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto, I think you are forced to run attack investment. If you run max HP / max Atk, then you DO have a chance to 5HKO (which again is possible with an odd HP stat).

Now consider these:

Against SpDef Ditto:
252 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto: 53-63 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto: 58-69 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO

Against Def Ditto:
252 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 34-40 (11.3 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 37-44 (12.3 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO

Personally, I would definitely not run 252 Atk on a relaxed Ditto, but it does appear to be viable on a Ditto with an attack-boosting nature. If one were to go this route, however, I would go with 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 filler with an attack-boosting nature. This would provide the odd HP stat to ensure 5 hits it will need to have a chance to kill. But the kicker with this spread, is that you are heavily relying on the opponent not having defense investment.

So I guess I learned something.... by investing 92 into defense for a final spread of 252 HP / 92 Def / 164 SpD with a sassy nature I can avoid a 5HKO from opposing max attack adamant Ditto's struggle (barring a critical hit)..... But honestly I don't think this topic has been explored with this amount of scrutiny before, and I don't think max attack adamant Ditto is ran by anyone on the ladder (yet???).

So to conclude, I guess, I would still suggest minimum attack on a sassy nature Ditto to minimize damage from special attacks and foul play on zoroark. The relaxed set with 31 IVs in attack will still fail to 5HKO opposing 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto and the 252 Atk only has a chance to 5HKO against opposing Dittos without defense investment (meaning I doubt it would be worth it for anyone to use it). Additionally, because I am recommending the the SpDef set and not the attack-invested set, I still recommend 252 EVs in HP because I find it more important to gain the additional HP from regenerator than to get the extra struggle off because (1) I will not be able to 5HKO an opposing Ditto with struggle anyway and (2) in the very off chance I am trapped by a sub + hone claws Dugtrio, I will feint a turn earlier giving it one fewer turns to set up.

Given the scenario you described, I think that the vast majority of games will be decided by who transforms second on the initial turn and not by the attack stat of Ditto.


P.S. I meant the Smogon Strategy Dex, but if you have an in at GF, we should definitely talk lol!! :]

 

[dsm77773]

I can only see this happening given the following:

For this scenario of Ditto v Ditto struggle war, they must be the last two Pokemon, caused from of a double down the turn before (hence why neither player would switch out).

Agree

We will assume both are at full health for this.

And here is the problem I think. You're obviously not killing anything from full health with Struggle, unless you are a +6 Azumarill or something, but definitely not with an uninvested 48 base Attack.
Obviously, if opposing Ditto is at full health, if you win the speed tie, you're done. But now imagine that the opposing Ditto is not at full health. There are several reasons why this might be: maybe it failed to OHKO one of your bulkmons and took a hit. Maybe it Impostered Mega Lopunny and missed HJK at some point. Maybe it was using it to scout you and thus took several rounds of Stealth Rock damage:

On the turn both click transform, it will fail for whoever loses the speed tie and goes second. The important part here is only one Ditto transforms. The winner of the game will almost certainly be whoever lost this speed tie and did not transform. At this point, both will click transform for 5 turns (each time it will fail), then on the 6th the one that actually transformed will go down to struggle, while the other is free to continue using transform PP. For the next 4-5 turns (4 if Ditto has an HP stat that is a multiple of 4; 5 if it does not) the transformed Ditto will lost 25% of its HP (rounded down).

This is what happens next. Now if Ditto is at full health, but the opposing Ditto is not, in 5 Struggle hits you do 110-135HP (assuming no critical hits, 31 Attack IVs, and the opposing Ditto being the standard Relaxed one). Assuming your spread on opposing Ditto, you deal 180-215HP damage with 5 Struggle hits (again, assuming none will crit). This means that if the opposing Ditto has some prior damage (30%) from Stealth Rock, status, chip hits or whatever, it is screwed. A critical hit in 5 turns it is not that rare, so chances increase. This is using your own calcs:

0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto: 36-43 (12 - 14.3%) -- possible 7HKO
14.3% damage x 5 turns of struggle = 71.5%

And with 5 critical hits (literally less than 1 in a million chance):
0 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto on a critical hit: 54-64 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO

Because of this, if you want to do some descent damage with Struggle to an opposing 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto, I think you are forced to run attack investment. If you run max HP / max Atk, then you DO have a chance to 5HKO (which again is possible with an odd HP stat).

Don't run Attack investment, you're still very far from KOing opposing Ditto with Struggle from full health.

Now consider these:

Against Def Ditto:
252 Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 34-40 (11.3 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Ditto Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 37-44 (12.3 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO

With this spread, is that you are heavily relying on the opponent not having defense investment.

And standard Dittos DO have Defense investment.

So I guess I learned something.... by investing 92 into defense for a final spread of 252 HP / 92 Def / 164 SpD with a sassy nature I can avoid a 5HKO from opposing max attack adamant Ditto's struggle (barring a critical hit)..... But honestly I don't think this topic has been explored with this amount of scrutiny before, and I don't think max attack adamant Ditto is ran by anyone on the ladder (yet???).

So to conclude, I guess, I would still suggest minimum attack on a sassy nature Ditto to minimize damage from special attacks and foul play on zoroark. The relaxed set with 31 IVs in attack will still fail to 5HKO opposing 252 HP / 4 Def Ditto and the 252 Atk only has a chance to 5HKO against opposing Dittos without defense investment (meaning I doubt it would be worth it for anyone to use it). Additionally, because I am recommending the the SpDef set and not the attack-invested set, I still recommend 252 EVs in HP because I find it more important to gain the additional HP from regenerator than to get the extra struggle off because (1) I will not be able to 5HKO an opposing Ditto with struggle anyway and (2) in the very off chance I am trapped by a sub + hone claws Dugtrio, I will feint a turn earlier giving it one fewer turns to set up.

If you're worried about Zoroark using Foul Play on Ditto, the Relaxed set obviously will take the hit better.
This is Foul Play vs Relaxed Ditto with 31 Attack IVs:
Zoroark Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 64-76 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
Foul Play vs SpDef Ditto with 1 Atk IVs:
Zoroark Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ditto: 78-93 (26 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Foul Play vs SpDef Ditto with 31 Atk IVs:
Zoroark Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ditto: 102-120 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
There's a noticeable difference in the last two calcs, but what is the chance of finding a Foul Play Zoroark?
| 162 | Zoroark | 0.13972% | OU's 1825 usage stats
| Nasty Plot 6.201% | this is the last listed move, which means <6% of the Zoroark's run Foul Play.
0.13972 * 0.06 = 0.0083832%
Meanwhile, Ditto...
| 109 | Ditto | 0.47844% |
For a Ditto Struggle war to happen, you need both sides having a Ditto, and that the scenario above occurs. Is that a more likely scenario than finding a Foul Play Zoroark? Ultimately, the Relaxed vs SpDef Ditto debate comes to that.

Given the scenario you described, I think that the vast majority of games will be decided by who transforms second on the initial turn and not by the attack stat of Ditto.

True

P.S. I meant the Smogon Strategy Dex, but if you have an in at GF, we should definitely talk lol!! :]

Maybe we can write Gen VII's Ditto analysis?

 

[Lovegood]

Dayyyuuum the best squad ever has been posted on Smogon *0*
I don't have much to say, I played this team on the 1800-1900ish ladder and had a winrate of ~50% which is far enough for such an unconventional build, given that I didn't play it perfectly.
I don't see SubPunch Breloom in your threatlist, it destroys your build, I got wrecked twice by it on the ladder. I know Xatu looks like an answer but it's the most pressured mon of the team and can't come in through the whole game.
Congrats for building this :]

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Agree

And here is the problem I think. You're obviously not killing anything from full health with Struggle, unless you are a +6 Azumarill or something, but definitely not with an uninvested 48 base Attack.
Obviously, if opposing Ditto is at full health, if you win the speed tie, you're done. But now imagine that the opposing Ditto is not at full health. There are several reasons why this might be: maybe it failed to OHKO one of your bulkmons and took a hit. Maybe it Impostered Mega Lopunny and missed HJK at some point. Maybe it was using it to scout you and thus took several rounds of Stealth Rock damage:

This is what happens next. Now if Ditto is at full health, but the opposing Ditto is not, in 5 Struggle hits you do 110-135HP (assuming no critical hits, 31 Attack IVs, and the opposing Ditto being the standard Relaxed one). Assuming your spread on opposing Ditto, you deal 180-215HP damage with 5 Struggle hits (again, assuming none will crit). This means that if the opposing Ditto has some prior damage (30%) from Stealth Rock, status, chip hits or whatever, it is screwed. A critical hit in 5 turns it is not that rare, so chances increase. This is using your own calcs:



Don't run Attack investment, you're still very far from KOing opposing Ditto with Struggle from full health.

And standard Dittos DO have Defense investment.

If you're worried about Zoroark using Foul Play on Ditto, the Relaxed set obviously will take the hit better.
This is Foul Play vs Relaxed Ditto with 31 Attack IVs:
Zoroark Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 64-76 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
Foul Play vs SpDef Ditto with 1 Atk IVs:
Zoroark Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ditto: 78-93 (26 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Foul Play vs SpDef Ditto with 31 Atk IVs:
Zoroark Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Ditto: 102-120 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
There's a noticeable difference in the last two calcs, but what is the chance of finding a Foul Play Zoroark?
| 162 | Zoroark | 0.13972% | OU's 1825 usage stats
| Nasty Plot 6.201% | this is the last listed move, which means <6% of the Zoroark's run Foul Play.
0.13972 * 0.06 = 0.0083832%
Meanwhile, Ditto...
| 109 | Ditto | 0.47844% |
For a Ditto Struggle war to happen, you need both sides having a Ditto, and that the scenario above occurs. Is that a more likely scenario than finding a Foul Play Zoroark? Ultimately, the Relaxed vs SpDef Ditto debate comes to that.


True

Maybe we can write Gen VII's Ditto analysis?

Ok. You've won me over. I do see where you're coming from if both Dittos are not at full... and catching a foul play is indeed rare. And going back to my dugtrio example (I know, another rare situation, but that seems to be the theme of this discussion lol), it gives me a better chance to break its sub I'll put atk EVs back on the spread in the OP.

When Sun and Moon roll around and new analyses need written, I'll hit you up with a PM sometime and let's do it!

 

[DoctorPhrog]

Dayyyuuum the best squad ever has been posted on Smogon *0*
I don't have much to say, I played this team on the 1800-1900ish ladder and had a winrate of ~50% which is far enough for such an unconventional build, given that I didn't play it perfectly.
I don't see SubPunch Breloom in your threatlist, it destroys your build, I got wrecked twice by it on the ladder. I know Xatu looks like an answer but it's the most pressured mon of the team and can't come in through the whole game.
Congrats for building this :]

Lovegood! Thank you so much for the praise! That means a lot coming from you! And a special thanks for testing it out higher ladder... it's a tough team to get used to playing with, but it sounds like it was holding its own for you :D

And I hesitate to put breloom on the threatlist bc it can be always be managed. Initial switch-in should always be Tangrowth until you figure out the set (rock tomb does a number on Xatu). If it is sub-punch, Xatu really should be the about the best counter in the game lol... That being said, yeah Xatu is really pressured and can be wore down making it a huge threat; but when I see breloom I treat it a little more gingerly making sure it stays healthy until I know breloom is countered.

P.S. I'm still waiting for an upload on your YT channel :)

 

[Lovegood]

I agree Tangrowth is a switch-in, but it takes about half on a Focus Punch, I guess it depends on the match-up but both times I've faced a SubPunch Breloom, Xatu and Tangrowth were heavily pressured and I had to sent Alomomola out a lot, which meant free swtich-ins and Sub/FocusPunch from the Breloom as it does not fear Scald.

P.S. I WANT to upload, I have cool replays and stuff, but my computer and video editor are SOOO bad :((