Final thoughts on the Threat List

[Bologo]

The question is: Is Breloom threatening enough to be considered a threat? Considering how it is natural for someone to carry a Gliscor, Cress, Salamence or Celebi (and other stuff that counters fighters), and a Sleep Talker to help against Hypnosis that could come out of Yanmegas/Gengars, Breloom does not seem very standout at all. A team can be murdered by just about anything, so theoretically just about everything should be in the threat list because of that, and we know that doesn't work.

It's not all that natural to carry a Sleep Talker at all. Ever thought about the Gliscor/Celebi usage being partly because of Breloom, and not just Heracross?

That's very well the way it could be, because you don't see Sleep Talk Cresselias coming out against Gengars or Yanmegas, but Sleep Talk Cresselia is pretty much the most common form of the thing.

 

[Dragontamer]

Here are the pokemon I'm thinking that need to be either kicked off, or deserves discussion.

Starmie
Suicune
Slaking
Kingdra

I'm neutral on Kingdra, it is excellent in the rain and is in addition an excellent rain dancer. I can't have too strong of an opinion on it because I haven't faced too many.

Next is Slaking. His ability ruins him, but he is certainly a threat for that single turn he is in. As the others have said... the game is too fast for him. Again, neutral on this guy as well.

Suicune I'm leaning towards "Defensive Threat" and not an "Offensive Threat". +6 Crocune doesn't 2-hit KO 0/0 Blissey all the time. Not that you'd throw Blissey on a Calm-minding / Roaring Suicune of course... this is strictly a measure of Suicune's attack power. Even after a calm mind or two, Suicune has trouble getting the power of stronger Specs / Life Orb and Nasty Plot users like PorygonZ, Lucario and and Infernape.

Finally, Starmie. 115 speed is great, 100 Sp. Atk is unfortunately now on the weak side. Bolt/Beam is standard on many Sp. Attackers, and while Specs Surf from Starmie is certainly powerful, if you can survive Specs Tri-Attack from PorygonZ, or Specs-Lucario, or LO NP Azelf or a MixApe, I have a feeling that Specs Starmie is covered.

Not saying it isn't useful. But I see it closer to a utility pokemon. Nonetheless, Suicune probably should come off the threat list before Starmie does. Starmie has a movepool, speed and Sp. Atk advantage over Suicune. This leaves my opinion of Starmie as "Neutral".

Ultimately, if utility pokemon get a mention on the "defensive threat list", then Starmie, Suicune, and Kingdra probably would be better on that list and off of this one. Starmie's defenses are overrated... and such a popular and versatile pokemon deserves a mention on one of these lists.

 

[the Lexx]

Keep in mind that Breloom can also subseed, and there's no guarantee when it will spore - it could always just attack or sub while you switch, and put you in a "is it going to use spore or an attack?" situation when the sleep talker comes out. Cresselia only has a 1 in 3 chance to break Breloom's sub by the way, assuming it isn't using Psychic.

 

[Jumpman16]

The question is: Is Breloom threatening enough to be considered a threat? Considering how it is natural for someone to carry a Gliscor, Cress, Salamence or Celebi (and other stuff that counters fighters), and a Sleep Talker to help against Hypnosis that could come out of Yanmegas/Gengars

I think you should sit back and think about what you're saying while remembering our target audience. You're "someone" seems like a competent battler who wouldn't be inclined to look at this threat list for help anyway, but regardless...a Sleep Talker? Those haven't been common since Advance. And even so, do you think our target audience knows unequivocally to keep Gliscor and Salamence away from Breloom until it sleeps something else?

Yes, but despite how appealing that looks, a fair bit of pokemon have the defense to take it.

I have both used Breloom to and seen it beat or at least totally stalemate a few Cresselia 1-on-1 because that was their Sleep Talker. Regardless, there are several pokemon on the threat list with multiple viable "counters", and Breloom is just one of them.

Breloom is not the only pogey that gives trouble if you don't have a STalker. Gengar, Yanmega, Jynx, Crobat, etc. Because of that, Breloom doesn't look as shiny as what it is described, despite its 100% acc Spore (either way, they give the same effects am I right?)

I am not sure why you're likening Spore to Hypnosis like they're the same move. By your logic, Grasswhistle Leafeon should be a viable threat since the accuracy is only 15% lower than Hypnosis'. That's less of a difference than the 30% between Spore and Hypnosis!

Besides, we can take all of your examples case by case. Gengar is a bigger threat because of Hypnosis (and is on the Threat List). Yanmega is a bigger threat because of Hypnosis (and is on the Threat List). Jynx may have made the Threat List if it weren't weak (to Pursuit)...or to put it in other terms, who the hell would even use Jynx if it didn't have Lovely Kiss, just for a Specs user that's outclassed by many other Specs Threats? And Crobat is much, much less annoying without Hypnosis...think back to how mediocre it was in Advance.

And if you're going to draw the comparison, you may as well put the pokemon on level terms. Do you honestly think Breloom would be as threatening if it only got Sleep Powder? What about if it only got Grasswhistle? Or, on the other side of the coin, what if Gengar did get Spore? Or Crobat? Or Yanmega? What if Shaymin and Sceptile and Roserade and Abomasnow got Spore (all learn Grasswhistle)? You can't honestly believe they wouldn't pose more of a threat than they currently do.

Anyway, I'm sounding off on this one because this is one of the few pokemon I actually have quite a bit of experience with and against.

I'm also not going to repeat myself on why I think Slaking is a threat. You all may be right regardless, but I already refuted the "it isn't used" argument in the other thread. And my reasoning behind Dugtrio has been in the RMT Announcement this Threat List came from since last March—the least us Policy Reviewers can do is read that if we haven't already, right? That said, I did just pick up my calculator to remind myself what Slaking can do to Skarmory—my evident litmus test for physical efficacy—and the 56-67% with TP/FP/FP (lol) isn't very apprealing when it's not attacking the next turn. I should have gone back to old, dependable "for some numbers" from the beginning... (as if I'm the final decision maker on this stuff lol)

Ultimately, if utility pokemon get a mention on the "defensive threat list", then Starmie, Suicune, and Kingdra probably would be better on that list and off of this one. Starmie's defenses are overrated... and such a popular and versatile pokemon deserves a mention on one of these lists.

You do realize that:

1) there is a Defensive Threat List
2) Suicune and Starmie are already on there
3) I stated above that the lists aren't mutually exclusive, right?

The way this paragraph reads I honestly cannot tell whether you've read my posts to these effects, in both this thread and the first one in Stark, or the Defensive Threat List that's in the RMT forum and has been since August.

 

[Jibaku]

Meh okay Jump. I was simply sounding off at the fact that I never ran into problems facing one, and I've truthfully never taken it as a threat when building my teams and I still breeze off against one (unless their Breloom is built to metagame against me). Sometimes it's annoying to fight (Subseeding gets on my nerves, but then again, every Subseeder does that), but I can still get around it.

This, though, has absolutely no bearing on the threat Slaking itself poses, and therefore should not be the reason it is not on the Threat List.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...

 

[goofball]

Shouldn't the threat list reflect common threats in the metagame? If so there is no reason to include slaking while he is threaten, you won't run into him enough times to warrant a dedicated counter. Even so you already have teams with plenty of defensive walls as it is to cover other hard hitters.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post jumpman, I'll change anything accordingly. >.<

 

[Firestorm]

I disagree with taking Breloom off the list. Breloom's combination Spore, Substitute, Focus Punch, Seed Bomb and/or Leech Seed can tear things apart if not prepared and is common enough that you should really take its presence into account. Not many good Pokemon have a 100% sleep followed by a subseed or subpunch off of 130 base attack. Especially combined with double leftovers recovery from Toxic Orb.

I think Jump said it more eloquently than I have though.

Shouldn't the threat list reflect common threats in the metagame? If so there is no reason to include slaking while he is threaten, you won't run into him enough times to warrant a dedicated counter. Even so you already have teams with plenty of defensive walls as it is to cover other hard hitters.

This is something I wanted to comment on too. I've thought of the Threat List as a "What to watch out for when making your team" list. This has made me think of it as a common threat list. There's a ton of Pokemon that can be threats in certain circumstances, but aren't seen enough to really take into account when creating a team. In a way, it reminds me a lot of the OU tier. Pokemon you see a lot due to their power and should keep in mind when creating your own team.

 

[Dragontamer]

You do realize that:

1) there is a Defensive Threat List
2) Suicune and Starmie are already on there
3) I stated above that the lists aren't mutually exclusive, right?

The way this paragraph reads I honestly cannot tell whether you've read my posts to these effects, in both this thread and the first one in Stark, or the Defensive Threat List that's in the RMT forum and has been since August.

Yes, I understand that. I do remember seeing the defensive topic list, and yes, it is my mistake for not checking that Starmie and Suicune was already on there. I also understand that the lists are not mutually exclusive. And with that it is fair that you can conclude that paragraph was not of the quality expected in this topic. With that said, let me try this one more time, particularly on Starmie's and Suicune's case to make my point.

In my experience, both Starmie's role in battle has been to be the spinner/support/utility, and Suicune's role is to be a bulky water / phazer type. In both cases, they commonly run with EV investments in HP as opposed to maxing out Sp. Attack.

While both pokemon can theoretically be an offensive threat, I do not think that they are in practice a threat. Starmie is usually a support/utility pokemon, Suicune is a wall.

Where the other argument comes in is of course Starmie's high Sp. Attack and speed which make it possible for Starmie to really sweep a team. However, I find the sweeper Starmie to be less threatening than the stronger sweepers such as PZ and Azelf. This added to the fact of Starmie's typically defensive EV spreads makes me think that Starmie is a borderline case that should be discussed.

What does Starmie have to offer? Surf, Bolt/Beam, Grass Knot, and Psychic. If you cover PZ, you've covered Bolt/Beam. If you cover MixApe, you should have covered Grass Knot. If you cover Azelf, Psychic is covered. Finally, Blissey easily walls Specs-Starmie, and Blissey isn't the only Sp. Wall who can shrug off Starmie's hits. Specs-Psychic is a 3-hit KO on Ludicolo and Lanturn. 252 HP Snorlax is 3-hit KOed by Specs-surf and Cradily + Sandstorm is 3-hit by Specs Ice Beam. Specs Starmie does perform well against some defensive threats like Tentacruel and Swampert... but there are plenty of walls who can take on Starmie's most powerful hits.

Suicune's Roar sets it apart in that it can always force out the opponent's wall, but with an even more limited movepool than Starmie, less Speed and less Sp. Attack, I'd have to say that Suicune should be knocked off this list before Starmie is considered.

 

[Phuquoph]

Oddly enough, it's the fact that Suicune is a wall that makes it a threat offensively. That makes it pretty easy to set up Calm Mind and proceed to sweep teams. Rest/Roar/Surf/Ice Beam isn't much of a threat offensively, Calm Mind/Surf/Rest/Sleep Talk is. There's not much else on the list that takes hit as well as Suicune, which makes it that much harder to prevent it setting up.

I agree that Starmie is nowhere as big a threat as PoryZ, Azelf, etc. but it is a different enough threat to require listing. Heatran makes a reasonable counter for Pory and Azelf, but obviously loses to Starmie. I've seen teams both on shoddy and in RMT threads that struggle against Starmie. Granted, they are poor teams, but the whole point of this list is to help newer players prepare for as many threats as they possible can.

How about splitting the list into two "tiers"? Tier 1: Cover these or you are fucked. Tier 2: You won't see these quite so much, but cover them anyway just to be on the safe side. This might help solve the discussion of "no one uses this, so why prepare for it?".

 

[Mekkah]

Maybe we should formulate the definition of a threat again before we start to add/remove Pokemon because if we're going by different definitions there's no point discussing what should be on and off the list.

"This pokemon sweeps if you're unprepared" is weak in RMTs and is weak here. Given that nearly any slightly offensively oriented Pokemon in DP can actually sweep "unprepared" teams because almost anything has a vast movepool in both physcial and special department, you may as well put BL and below things on there in some cases.

I think we should go by how many (stable) common Pokemon they are countered by when defining what is a threat and what isn't, and maybe, go by how easily they do rip through teams that do not have an end-all counter. Something like Breloom is having a harder time ripping through an "unprepared team" because there will always be something faster than it out there that kills it, but Salamence and Garchomp are both an absolute murder and faster than a great load of Pokemon.

Since DP seems to have very little to none good counters to the better Pokemon out there, I think that's our best bet really.

Also, about usage, I've outlined this before: I say we first look at the other factors, then write an entry and add them to the list if needed, and THEN if they are currently below top60 they can be removed (cut/pasted to "threats below top60" or unmarked or something. Or just link to the Shoddy statistics on the threat list and mention that it is more urgent to counter top60 ones on the weighed list than those below.

I mean, just because Slaking is out of the top60 doesn't lower its attacking stats when I use it. It's equally threatening in battle, it's just less urgent to cover.

EDIT: I'm against a tier split in this list. There's enough issues about on/off as it is. Adding an extra choice for each Pokemon will only result into more bickering.

EDIT 2: Concerning Slaking, Jumpman16's point is (at least, I believe it is - if it isn't then this is just an extra point) that just because Slaking does not move on turn 2 does not mean it doesn't hurt a fuckton on turn 1. Just because it makes the opponent more threatening on the Truant turn does not mean it is less threatening on the attacking turn. It is an offensive threat...but frankly, I don't think it's a very good Pokemon. It will likely stay low on use forever, but nonetheless you should be able to switch into one just in case someone decides to use it.

 

[Jumpman16]

Yeah but actually my most recent point is that since it is not at all a threat on turn 2 then that should be factored into how threatening it in itself is. (And Jibaku, I do mean just the threat it poses by itself, which is "I can damn near OHKO 95% of the pokemon in the game in one hit I don't care about my Ability or how badly I fuck over my teammates when I give x opposing threat a free turn of set up.) I'm more on the fence about it now though now that I reminded myself that it poses no threat on Turn 2, which is a big deal (or a ton of slower pokemon could switch into faster ones that can "2HKO" it and recover or threaten the OHKO, imagine a Truant CB Sala vs Milotic).

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

You can't really define a threat anymore since in general, a shit load of teams don't have a 'certain' weakness on paper. However, strategies and situations and circumstances changes a counter completely.

Pretty much the only purpose of this post was to disagree with defining what a threat is.

 

[Jumpman16]

You can more easily define "threat" when you remember our target audience and that the List purposely does not go into strategies largely and certainly doesn't go into situations. Such considerations are outside the scope of the Threat List and the RMT announcement in general.

Anyway, we're done here. I've given anyone else who wanted things like Breloom, Starmie and Suicune off the list plenty of time to chime in (both in this thread and the one in Stark), which is more than fair all things considered. For those of you who are both all-star battlers and have access to this forum who also disagree with what I am adding/removing form the list, I remind you: there is more to having an impact on competitive pokemon than your Shoddy ladder ranking!