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All Gens Find a Niche: Feraligatr

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. Jellicent

    Jellicent
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    In this thread, we'll be taking a look at Pokemon that have never quite hit OU status, but still occasionally find a way to shine in certain gens. Despite their flaws, there's something about these Pokemon that offers a unique value. Discussion here is limited to past gens and OU. These 'mons will likely be good in lower tiers, but the goal is to find what makes them worthwhile in standard play. Similarly, this is a past gens forum, so the current gen is simply off-topic.

    Featured Pokemon:
    01 - Mr. Mime
    02 - Omastar
    03 - Arcanine
    04 - Weezing
    05 - Moltres
    06 - Hitmonlee
    07 - Nidoqueen
    08 - Raichu
    09 - Blastoise
    10 - Articuno
    11 - Feraligatr
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
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  2. Jellicent

    Jellicent
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    And right off the bat, it's Mr. Mime time! So, besides making kids uncomfortable for two decades, what actual purpose does this weirdo serve? From RBY to ORAS OU, let's talk niches~

    [​IMG]
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  3. Lavos

    Lavos cultivating
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    [​IMG]
    Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
    - Baton Pass
    - Barrier
    - Encore
    - Substitute

    mime has one niche in GSC as part of a full growthpass team which aims to collect boosts and create an unkillable sweeping monster. it is unique in its access to barrier + bp + encore, which are fairly potent together. encore is particularly strong when you've already trapped something via umbreon/smeargle and it's trying to set up on you. encore can not only lock something into curse while you boost up, it also can be used as a finishing move before you pass to twistedspoon exeggutor (the best and only growth sweeper) so you get a free turn to 2hko snorlax unless encore rolls low. substitute is better against status and you generally want to have a sub up before you pass big stats to avoid losing to a random crit. can't think of any other options, maybe twave?

    teammates include: amnesia passing girafarig, umbreon, scizor/jolteon, smeargle, exeggutor
    Crystal_, OrangeGuru and dice like this.
  4. The Idiot Ninja

    The Idiot Ninja

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    As far as RBY goes, this thing is completely unviable in OU. It's an Alakazam without Recover and much less Speed and Special. Access to Thunder/Thunderbolt is the only thing it has going over Alakazam, and it's not close to being enough to carve him a niche. It's walled to eternity by Chansey, it doesn't do much to Snorlax, I suppose it can TWave and Seismic Toss an Exeggutor on the switch a la Kazam (haha good pun!), it's outsped by Jynx in the lead position, it's all around outclassed by many other Psychics in the tier. Its only legitimate use is absorbing a Sleep Powder or being a sac on an Explosion, maybe get a TWave off, and that's not much of a feat. Even on a mono Psychic team, you'd probably run Jynx, Exeggutor, Slowbro, Starmie, Alakazam and Hypno before resorting to the Mr. Meme.
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  5. steviestar

    steviestar

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    Mr. Mime (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Soundproof
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind / Barrier
    - Substitute
    - Encore
    - Baton Pass

    Mr. Mime was never a Baton Pass staple in any gen (except maybe 3? not too familiar with BP teams in that one), but its unique access to Soundproof and Baton Pass gave it a niche as the BP archetype's only guaranteed stop to Perish Song, a role that was particularly relevant in BW when Politoed and Celebi commonly ran the move (at least back in the day). Soundproof is also handy for blocking Roar, but Espeon's newfound access to Magic Bounce overshadowed it in that role.

    However BP teams didn't really take off until the introduction of Speed Boost Scolipede in Gen 6. This gen was not particularly kind for Mr. Mime as Perish Song's relevance all but died in OU and superior Baton Passers such as Sylveon were introduced, basically eliminating Mr. Mime's already small niche. The final nail in the coffin of course was the introduction of the Baton Pass clause, eliminating Baton Pass chains from the tier altogether and thus removing the chance of Mr. Mime ever seeing the light of day in OU.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  6. Cowboy Dan

    Cowboy Dan

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    To expand on what steviestar said, Mr. Mime's niche in gen 3 is all about baton pass, specifically the ever annoying presence known as full pass. Ever since ingrain smeargle got banned, Mr. Mime has provided these teams with their primary method of thwarting common phazers. Soundproof allows it to block moves like roar and perish song, meaning only whirlwind can reliably break these chains which is only really used commonly by Skarmory. If you've ever gone through the lower levels of showdown's ADV ladder, you probably have a special kind of hate for this pokemon.
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  7. Enigami

    Enigami

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    To expand on RBY Mime, it's more accurate to compare it with Abra. Similar special (Abra actually has 5 more), same Speed, same lack of Recover, same role, with the only differences being Mr. Mime's higher bulk and access to Thunderbolt. Mr. Mime's failings in OU are already mentioned above, but with regards to UU and below:

    UU: Crappy Kadabra that trades recovery, speed and power for Thunderbolt, which gives it a better matchup against Articuno and Water-types that aren't already Psychic-weak while weakening it heavily against everything else except maybe Moltres.

    RU: Likely one of the top Pokemon there and probably S-Rank as it's the strongest Psychic that would be available (RBY rule of thumb: every tier ends up with a relatively highly viable Psychic-type, or if none are available, user of the move Psychic- no exceptions) and has good speed/Special relative to the tier and would be a major threat while healthy, but still balanced as once paralyzed it becomes quite easy to eliminate.
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  8. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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    Aside from Baton Pass... uh in Gens 4-6 you can run Teeter Dance + TWave for heinous fuckery
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  9. BKC

    BKC
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    Really cool thread idea Jelli, I like it a lot. Hope to see it continue. Anyway enough with the pure BP for Ash's mom's housemaid

    ADV
    [​IMG]

    Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
    Ability: Soundproof
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Psychic
    - Hypnosis
    - Fire Punch

    Mr. Mime has the tools to be a decent enough offensive CMer. Same SpA as Jirachi/Celebi. It's also got monster SpDef. Hypnosis is what seperates it, though. We all know how powerful sleep is in Advance these days and Mime must use this to differentiate itself. Gardevoir can also pull off this combination but in my opinion is better suited to serve as jira's Dugtrio trapper set. Mime's superior 90 base speed also lets it get the jump on most Salamence, Zapdos, +1 DDtar, Jolly Heracross, and even some Gengar, giving it better defensive utility for an offensive CM Poke than Voir would have. Soundproof is good for fucking with the occasional RestBell strat you come across. It can't really switch in to much outside of defensive Celebi (on a non-Leech Seed) and Reflect WishCM Rachi so keep that in mind. There is no reason to use three attack, Taunt / Encore or Trick @ CB because at that point it becomes 100% outclassed by Alakazam. Offensive CM Pass is done better by Celebi. Obviously Mime's pretty bad overall but you could do worse.

    edit @ mcm: I did think of Jynx and while it'd be silly to not agree that it's much better overall, the reason I didn't mention it is Mime's ability to hit Metagross/Jirachi which Jynx can't while having the solid 306 Speed as opposed to Gardevoir's 284 and still having sleep. A stretch, I know (and Jynx hides behind Subs to dish out its Ice Beam/LK, although I always liked Psychic for Cune), but I figured that's half the fun of this thread, especially since I was trying to stay away from any BP related stuff.

    edit 2 @ enigami: yes, in theory you could. realistically, though, you would not ever use that set on jynx. that's why.

    [​IMG]
    Mr. Mime @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Soundproof
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Psychic
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Healing Wish
    - Trick

    Gained Fairy typing in XY so it's immune/resistant to Latios' STAB and doesn't care about other moves. Dazzling Gleam also hits Tyranitar/Weavile SE so that helps a little. Healing Wish is always awesome, main use you'll get out of it. Trick is good for some fatty wall. It outruns Scarf Excadrill and everything unboosted in OU, with Mega Zam's (and Aero's) ridiculous 438 being the new standard. Also, Soundproof blocks Gardevoir's Hyper Voice, which is extremely cool. Finally, its 4x Fighting resistance is quite notable in this generation with some of the fearsome fighters we have running around.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  10. Oglemi

    Oglemi oh my gosh you found me
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    Secret Boss Mod

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    DPP
    [​IMG]
    Mr. Mime @ Life Orb
    Ability: Soundproof
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hypnosis
    - Nasty Plot
    - Psychic
    - Baton Pass

    I used to play around with dumbshit like this back in DP when Hypnosis had better accuracy (actually with CM over NP since that was an HGSS egg move iirc), and while this is pretty much completely outclassed by Celebi and Azelf (and Alaka), the lack of extra weaknesses over Celebi, ability to sleep, extra power in NP, and option to Baton Pass out can make an ok but ultimately weaker fit on heavy offense teams looking for a different option over any of the three.

    I really don't think there's anything else that Mr. Mime really has to offer outside of being on full BP chains. I wish you could use the above set with Healing Wish on the set, but it's incompatible with both Hypnosis and Nasty Plot.

    It also has a bit of a niche as a dual screener but Celebi and Cresselia will almost always do that better too, the only set there that neither one can do being screens / Hypnosis / Baton Pass.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  11. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    Agreeing with bkc, I rly like this thread's idea and will defo lurk around :)

    As for Mime itself, full bp is allowed in adv, and mr.mime is a staple in those, it's realllly good at what it does there. Soundproof blocks Roar/Perish Song (two would be BP counters). With its insane spdef, it has a really easy time setting up subs/calm minds in the face of even the most poweful special behemoths such as Zapdos. You have a plethora of awesome moves on it too, as far as BP chains go, such as Calm Mind, Barrier, Hypnosis and Encore.

    Regarding the sleepcm set posted by BKC, i think Jynx does that a bit better, as its faster and has an awesome ice stab to boot.

    It could also fit DPP bp chains probably, though i haven't seen it because as of right now, the most popular chain (electrode/smeargle/gliscor/vap/hypno/kiss) can deal with roar just fine.

    It was also a staple in BW bp chains before they got banned, for pretty much the same reasons.

    So yeah to sum it up: soundproof + bp = top tier bp chains member.
  12. Enigami

    Enigami

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    Uh, BKC...
    252 SpA Mr. Mime Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 151-178 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Jynx Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

    Remember that Hidden Power is 70BP, only 5 behind Fire Punch. Jynx can run the same set as you posted but with stronger attacks, 15% more sleep accuracy and more speed (even with HP Fire's speed drop). Mime's just got Soundproof and no weaknesses from Ice-typing going for it.
  13. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Full pass isn't really a thing in gsc. no way to indefinitely prevent phaze. BP needs to be quick to work - 1 boost is all you get.

    Mime's GSC roles are twofold imo:

    Mr. Mime @ Miracleberry/Leftovers
    -meditate
    -baton pass
    -thunder
    -hypnosis

    Passing attack boosts is one of them. Thunder hits standard phazers hard, and hypnosis can put another out of commission. Because of these two moves, mime can pass attack boosts more reliably than can scizor (skarm beats it every time) or even smeargle (no attacking moves for when spore is used up). and vaporeon passing curse boosts sacrifices speed, which you usually don't want to do when doing bp (losing champ's speed adv over lax or speed tie with egg is brutal, as is losing nido's good speed tier or something exotic like tauros or aerodactyl). Lefties > berry if you want to use this as a standalone attack boost passer rather than as part of a full on bp gimmick team.

    Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
    -psychic
    -thunder
    -counter
    -encore

    Mini-alakazam is role #2. The main draw of this set is being able to learn both counter and encore. Zam usually can force Lax to wail on it with the threat of Encore against Curses, and can punish Lax wailing on it with Counter, but it can't use both and therefore is vulnerable to the opponent figuring out which threat isnt there (a la rapid spin cloyster). Mime gets around this. However this set is probably better done by clefable.
    Ortheore, Crystal_ and Earthworm like this.
  14. Jellicent

    Jellicent
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Awkward stats and a poor defensive typing have always held Omastar back, but every gen, it seems to gain just enough new tricks to carve itself another niche. So, just what kind of unique utility does this mollusc offer, and how can we make the most of it? Remember, discussion here is limited to past gen OUs.

    [​IMG]
  15. Enigami

    Enigami

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    For RBY Omastar

    OU: Niche is very small. Rest Omastar walls Body Slam + Ice Beam AmnesiaLax, Hydro Pump is powerful enough to 2HKO Tauros which makes it one of the best ways to punish predicted Hyper Beams from it, and in general it's a Normal-resist that Exeggutor does not enjoy facing (unless it has Mega Drain). Problem is, its weaknesses to the common Earthquake, Thunderbolt and Mega Drain compromises its great bulk, and Water-types have an easy time taking advantage of it as without reliable status they don't have much to fear from Omastar. Chansey is also a major problem unless it runs Submission (3HKO). This changes slightly if playing with Horn Drill allowed, which makes Omastar more of a threat to Chansey, Slowbro, AmnesiaLax, and if paralyzed, the other Water-types.

    UU: Muuuch better, atleast while Dragonite and Legendary Birds are around. Tremendously powerful Hydro Pump/Blizzard along with its resistances make it a great answer to Dragonite, Moltres, Articuno, Dodrio and Persian. Also helps that unlike OU there isn't Chansey and a bunch of powerful waters with Thunderbolt and/or instant recovery to abuse it.
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  16. BKC

    BKC
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    GSC
    [​IMG]
    Omastar @ Leftovers
    Ability: Swift Swim
    - Surf
    - Sandstorm
    - Toxic
    - Reflect / Rest / Ice Beam

    Snorlax check that sets up sand for residual damage fun. Decent switch to Tyranitar as well. Excellent SpAtk, speed ties Exeggutor/Machamp.

    ADV
    [​IMG]
    Omastar @ Mystic Water
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Electric] / Surf / Spikes

    The most powerful of the Rain Dance sweepers in Advance. Mystic Water Hydro in rain outdamages HP Grass on Pert (latter maxes at 99% where Hydro has a 25% to OHKO). Sand immune, normal/flying resistant.

    DPP
    [​IMG]

    Can run the same RD set, although this time HP Electric is preferred and Life Orb is the item. It's just fast enough to outrun Scarf Heatran with Modest! However, Timid beats Scarf Rotom and Adamant Flygon. Alternatively...

    Omastar @ Leftovers
    Ability: Shell Armor
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Spikes / Protect
    - Toxic Spikes / Protect
    - Surf
    - Knock Off

    Hazards with Knock Off. Yum. To be used in sand.

    Also, I like this fella in ubers:

    Omastar (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic Spikes

    Not as a lead, but midgame he abuses Kyogre's rain to smack some shit hard and can lay down some hazards. Specs set is probably good too, it was used a fair bit in BW ubers by Sweep (to speak nothing of Shell Smash). Speaking of...

    BW

    [​IMG]
    Omastar @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Shell Smash

    The SOMALIA classic. Fuck your rain team lol
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  17. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    Yeah like BKC said, omastar's biggest niche in adv is being the most powerful swift swimer at your disposal, i talked a bit about it in the past here and there, the damage output is insane.

    The thing is, most team would rather use kingdra or ludicolo probably, as they have a much better typing to serve a general purpose outside of attempting to sweep. Kingdra can p.much set up on anything without status, and can check some rly annoying mons for offense in a pinch (starmie/gar); Ludicolo too and it even has a grass stab going for it, and a EQ immunity, giving it even more value. At the end of the day, i think Omastar finds its true niche in dedicaced swift swim teams, where you'll get to use two of them, because otherwise, you're often better off using kingdra/ludi for the defensive utilities they also provide.
    ---

    In bw, i think it's outclassed by kingdra and gorebyss as an anti-rain abuser/setupper respectively. Speedtier isn't kind when most scarfers will outspeed at +2 (outside of a boost in rain that is), and you lose bpunch (zor) resistance/mach punch (loom) neutrality compared to gorebyss. You do gain an espeed resistance for dnite tho.
  18. Jellicent

    Jellicent
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Though Arcanine always scores awesome points, it's never really made a big splash in OU. So how can we best bring out this pooch's potential? What unique roles does it fill and how should we support it? Discussion's open to any past gen OU, from RBY to ORAS.

    [​IMG]
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  19. Enigami

    Enigami

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    Despite its popularity pushing it on viability ranks, it really isn't viable at all in RBY OU mostly due to being mostly outclassed by every other Fire-type outside of Magmar and NFEs. Moltres and Ninetales have more powerful Fire Blasts. Rapidash is only slightly weaker offensively while possessing higher speed. Flareon only loses out on speed-tieing Jynx, and outspeeding Dragonite which Fire-types don't have a lot of options to deal with anyway, while offering even greater power. Charizard has Earthquake to get past Rock-types and Swords Dance to make it a potentially threatening sweeper. All of the above options have Fire Spin which Arcanine lacks, allowing them to take advantage of slower burned Pokemon (or for Rapidash and Moltres, possibly even faster Pokemon such as Alakazam and Starmie by using Agility) and potentially break some counters such as Slowbro, Chansey and Rock-types without even having to switch out at all.

    If you absolutely had to run Arcanine in OU:

    [​IMG]
    - Fire Blast
    - Body Slam
    - Hyper Beam
    - Agility / Leer (or other move)

    STAB + Body Slam + Hyper Beam, 4th slot filler. Agility and Leer are probably the best options available to it, as Agility lets Arcanine overcome paralysis and potentially sweep in the end game, while Leer puts Starmie and Chansey in danger of being 2HKO'd with the combo of Body Slam + Hyper Beam and keeps Slowbro from safely resting against it, as well as weakening Reflect users if there are no other answers to them available. A few other options are Rest to wall Chansey (best if the opponent's Chansey is paralyzed), Reflect to make it less vulnerable to Earthquake if it finds any free turns to set it up, and Toxic for completely crippling a Dragonite expecting an easy setup.

    Also got around to making sets for RBY Mr. Mime and Omastar, in case anyone wanted them.
    Mr. Mime and Omastar sets (open)

    [​IMG]
    Mr. Mime
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt / Counter
    - Seismic Toss
    - Thunder Wave

    Pretty straightforward. STAB, Thunderbolt for increased damage against Water-types, Seismic Toss for other Psychics, and Thunder Wave for status. Optionally, you can drop Thunderbolt for a surprise Counter.

    [​IMG]
    - Hydro Pump
    - Blizzard
    - Body Slam / Seismic Toss
    - Rest

    Surf can be used over Hydro Pump, but might as well use Omastar's 115 Special to hammer things as hard as possible. Ice Beam can be run over Blizzard if you want more Freeze PP. For the third slot, best options are Body Slam for the chance to inflict paralysis or Seismic Toss for higher damage against opposing Water-types. Rest can probably be dropped in OU as the only Pokemon it walls there is Ice Beam AmnesiaLax, and Jynx if it's lucky. Submission over Rest in OU may be preferable to help Omastar break through Chansey.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
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  20. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    GSC:

    @ omastar: probably the best sand-setter but that isn't much of a role on its own despite GSC mechanics making sandstorm 1/8 per turn. It's also a neat FireCurselax counter with Haze, so adding that in is pretty important to get the most out of it. However, last I checked ThorLax was getting absurdly popular (not standard but used far more often than normal) which kinda ruins it (especially if you count on it + skarm to counter Laxen...)

    Omastar @ Leftovers
    -Surf
    -Sandstorm / Toxic
    -Haze
    -Rest

    Toxic slashed with Sandstorm if you want to force things to Rest & be able to throw out a few Surfs here and there instead of constantly setting up passive damage. That said, Omastar's sand can whittle away at Tentacruels and be a safer passive damage to throw out against a Gengar team, not to mention it actually works against sleeping pokes.


    @ arcanine: It's a Fire Type with cruddy coverage options but it's pretty tanky and has good enough SpA to 3HKO Lax in the sun. Exchanging coverage for tankiness is not something you generally want out of a gimmicky Sunny Day Fire poke, but that's what Arcanine has to work with:

    Arcanine @ Leftovers
    -Fire Blast
    -Sunny Day
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk

    It's hamstrung as a tank by low PP, but it's better to think of it as a sunny day sweeper that has staying power. In that case, RestTalk helps alleviate PP pressure on Fire Blast (v important when trying to go for those Lax 3HKOs) and pure Fire typing means it can go toe-to-toe with Electrics without a ton of risk (unlike a ST Moltres).

    FWIW this thing is probably more likely to find its way on standard teams that want a goofy 6th than it is to find its way onto a dedicated mono-Fire team:

    Charizard - EQ/Rock Slide/Belly Drum/Fire Blast
    Moltres - Sunny Day/Fire Blast/Sustitute/HP Grass
    Houndoom - Fire Blast/Crunch/Counter/Sunny Day
    Magmar - Fire Blast/Cross Chop/Sunny Day/Thunderpunch
    Entei - Fire Blast/Sunny Day/Solarbeam/HP Fighting
    Flareon - Fire Blast/Zap Cannon/Growth/Baton Pass

    That's probably what I'd go with on a full-out gimmick like mono-Fire. Meanwhile this more standard-ish team could catch some folks off guard:

    Arcanine - Fire Blast/Sunny Day/Rest/Sleep Talk
    Snorlax - Body Slam/Curse/Rest/Fire Blast
    Zapdos - Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave/Hidden Power Ice/Rest
    Steelix - Earthquake/Curse/Roar/Explosion
    Cloyster - Ice Beam/Toxic/Spikes/Explosion
    Machamp - Cross Chop/Rock Slide/Fire Blast/Curse

    (Obv all the Sun synergy is gimmicky as hell - HP Ghost on Champ & EQ on Lax & Thunder>Tbolt anyway on Zapdos & Surf>IB anyway on Cloy probably make for a better team tbh)
  21. Oglemi

    Oglemi oh my gosh you found me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Secret Boss Mod

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    DPP
    [​IMG]
    Arcanine @ Life Orb
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Flare Blitz
    - Extreme Speed
    - Thunder Fang
    - Hidden Power Grass / Morning Sun

    Espeed and Intimidate are about the only things Arc has over Infernape, and can kinda work as a sweeping counterpart/wallbreaker for it or vice versa. Arc's Speed tier is kinda shitty but it does at least outspeed key things like Gyara. Major downsides are that Arc is stopped cold by Ttar and picked off by Flygon. Major upside is that even max HP Starmie can't switch in safely on anything after SR since it gets 2HKOed by FB or TFang followed by Espeed. Absolutely needs SR off the field to work since it's gonna die super duper quick and if SR is on the field it's probably only getting in once.
  22. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Arcanine can sort of be used in ADV where you might be using Moltres if instead of wanting a spikes immunity, you instead need intimidate and espeed. But that's really quite niche considering the availability of better Intimidate mons. Still, Espeed is very handy for things like Salac mons! ADV OU doesn't exactly have loads of priority. Espeed is actually strong enough to have a roll in its favor against Dugtrio after 3 layers heh.

    Arcanine, while trash in DPP in general, is actually a not terrible lead because of Intimidate + decent power + ESpeed to finish off.

    Arcanine @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Def / 100 SpA / 148 Spe
    Naughty Nature
    - Flare Blitz
    - Extreme Speed
    - Iron Head
    - Overheat / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ground

    Speed is for Jolly Breloom. Can also run 212 speed w/ Naughty and HP Ground to do better against lead heatrans. Iron Head + Espeed kos aero. Overheat KOs non-Occa metagross 100%. Lum means you beat Roserade, Smeargle, and Machamp.

    It's sort of like a lead Ape/Dnite hybrid I guess, but Espeed and Intimidate somewhat set it apart. Like, it does better than Ape against Aerodactyl, Machamp, Azelf, and Gallade to some degree. Worse against Empoleon, Heatran, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Zapdos.
  23. Vengeance417

    Vengeance417

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
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    ORAS

    [​IMG]
    Arcanine @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 176 HP / 24 Atk / 252 Def / 56 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Morning Sun
    - Flare Blitz
    - Bulldoze / Extreme Speed

    Admittedly, Arcanine doesn't fare too well in ORAS OU. As an offensive Fire type, it's severely outclassed by the likes of both Mega Charizards, Talonflame, Heatran, Volcanion, and even oddballs that are rarely seen in the tier, such as Infernape and Entei. Even as a defensive Fire type Pokemon, Heatran, bulky Mega Charizard X, and SpDef Talonflame are much more consistent picks than the "Legendary" Pokemon.

    However, physically defensive Arcanine, thanks to decent bulk, semi-reliable recovery, and access to Intimidate, stands out from the crowd as a solid switchin to some of the more prominent physical attackers in the tier, such as Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Mega Metagross, Mega Scizor (nearly all Fire types can switch in to Mega Scizor, but Heatran, for example, has to watch out for an offensive variant's Superpower on the switch), and Jirachi. While Mega Charizard X typically does the physically defensive WoW set better, it takes up a valuable mega slot, is bound to Charizardite X for its item, and it doesn't switch in on mons like Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny nearly as well due to a lack of Intimidate.

    Calc comparison (open)


    252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 141-166 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    -1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 176 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 102-121 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 95.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    -1 252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 176 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    -1 252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (35.5 - 42%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (if you're not running Bulldoze)

    252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Charizard-Mega-X: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    -1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 176 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 121-144 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery



    The EV spread allows Arcanine to outpace Adamant Bisharp (don't switch in on this thing, especially if rocks are up) to either OHKO with Flare Blitz or burn it with WoW on a predicted Sucker Punch (if you're low enough to die from one, that is). I wouldn't run any more speed than this as Arcanine needs as much bulk as possible. Bulldoze is the hidden tech of this set as it enables Arcanine to not be hard-walled by Heatran, and 24 Attack EVs ensure that max HP Heatran is 2HKOd by Bulldoze after Stealth Rock. Also, having a move that lowers the Speed of opposing mons can be pretty nice for not only itself but for its team. However, if Heatran isn't bothersome to you, Extreme Speed can be used to pick off weakened Talonflame, and the 24 EVs in Attack can be moved back to HP. Lastly, the HP EVs hit an odd number so Arcanine has an extra Stealth Rock switchin, and max Defense with an Impish nature is used to maximize physical bulk. Leftovers is the preferred item as ORAS OU has plenty of heavy hitters and Arcanine can really appreciate the passive recovery, especially for matchups like EQ Megagross. However, Rocky Helmet could also be ran to punish U-turn spam from Mega Scizor as well as Fake Outs from Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham (you're still 2HKOd by Medi's HJK, so watch out for that).
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
    Silver_Lucario42, p2 and BKC like this.
  24. Fakes

    Fakes
    is a Past SPL Champion

    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    Arcanine (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 216 Atk / 112 SAtk / 180 Spd (270 speed)
    EVs: 252 Atk / 76 SAtk / 180 Spd (270 speed, use with Silk scarf)
    EVs: 192 HP / 216 Atk / 40 SAtk / 60 Spd (240 speed, survives Starmie's Surf)
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 30 Spd
    Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
    - Extreme Speed
    - Fire Blast, Overheat
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Howl

    The most generic, "historical" Arcanine of ADV. Despite having above average physical and special attack, Howl is its only means of boosting any of these. On top of this, Arcanine lacks any decent non-Fire-Type move other than Crunch, which doesn't exactly sport the best synergy with Fire. HP Fightning coming from 341 Attack is guaranteed to kill 404/256 Tyranitar after a single Howl, whereas +1 Extreme Speed obliterates uninvested Dugtrio. However, even if Arcanine had its maximum attack stat of 350, modern 253 HP Dugtrio would still survive +1 Extreme Speed 75% of the time. A similar problem arises with offensive Starmie: While +1 Extreme Speed kills it in 2 hits, Arcanine won't ever take a Hydro Pump and needs 369 HP to live through Surf, in which case it can't reach 270 speed anymore to outrun Heracross.

    350 Attack with Silk Scarf can fix the Dugtrio problem most of the time:

    +1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 245-289 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    Overheat might even be a better option than Fire Blast, since the latter fails to kill Metagross without massive special attack investment.

    [​IMG]

    Arcanine (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 68 SAtk / 188 Spd (300 speed)
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SAtk / 176 Spd (270 speed)
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

    EVs: 32 HP / 252 SAtk / 224 Spd (310 speed, for use in ADV UU)
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass], Roar, Substitute, Thief (No Item), Charm, Crunch (UU only)
    - Protect
    - Toxic

    Since the Howl variant fizzles out against more than half of ADV OU, this might be Arcanine's best shot at doing anything at all, even if it's just spreading Toxic and being a nuisance in the very late stages of the game. However, Charizard and Moltres are still far more powerful (on top of their better typing), Ninetales has better status conditions to spread (both burn and sleep) and Camerupt has Explosion and immunities to both Thunderbolt and Sand Stream. The only advantage Arcanine has over its fellow Fire Types is its ability to better match up to Heracross due to its Trait. But unless you make good use of Intimidate, even Entei arguably does this better.
    Caledrith, Khaytra and Kingler12345 like this.
  25. Jellicent

    Jellicent
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Finally, a Pokemon that smokes more than I do. What actual utility does this gassy clump of toxins offer, though? How can we maximize its potential and best support it when teambuilding? Quick reminder that we're only looking at the various past gen OUs here. Get your gas masks ready, cuz it's Weezing week!

    [​IMG]

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