Gen 4 Fire, Water and Grass Type Cores

[george182]

Fire/Water/Grass Type Cores

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I was shopping with my friends the other day and I saw a kid’s jumper which had on it a picture of; a hoody, Jeans and headphones. You can immediately tell that it’s been designed by an adult because it’s such an out of sync view on what a kid wants on his hoody. Almost as bad of a cliché as using a skull and crossbones.

People actually buy this >_<​

I get a similar impression when I read statements hating on the use of Fire, Water and Grass type pokemon together. Like an old women designing a hoody, it shows a poor understanding of the real situation. People don’t always use Fire, Water and Grass type pokemon as a 'core' and suggesting that it’s a bad thing to use all three together is obviously stupid.

1. Firstly it’s not always used as a ‘core’
Heatran is on 50% of teams and Infernape is on 25% of teams, which means is that Fire types are incredibly common. Water types are probably the most common type in the tier (bar steel), every single competitive team seems to have a water type these days. My point is that that Fire and Water types are extremely common. So whenever you use a grass type, it's extremely likely that you'll have the Fire, Water, Grass combo.

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2. FWG isn't a bad thing
Sometimes FWG is used as a core and it can be really effective. I don’t understand that mentality that “FWG doesn’t gain anything”. Here are a couple of examples of Fire, Water and Grass type pokemon with good synergy:

Physical Infernape and Sub Punch Breloom are an excellent wall breaking combination battering their way through walls like Rest Talk Gyarados. They can happily switch in each other checks like Vaporoen and Celebi respectively. Breloom’s spore is a key feature of this core, luring out and crippling things that check this trio. Dragon Dance Gyarados is the perfect sweeper to take advantage of the holes Infernape and Breloom create.

A different style of core. Roserade and Heatran having excellent defensive synergy allowing them to set up entry hazards easily (spikes + stealth rocks in this example). Starmie completes the typing synergy and provides rapid spin support, allowing complete entry hazard domination and makes switching between the three pokemon a lot easier.


I understand that there is a problem when some people slap on three random Fire, Water and Grass type pokemon. Needless to say, this is bad teambuilding. But that doesn't make using all three types together a bad thing.

Tl;dr
FWG isn’t always used as a ‘core’ and when it is, it can be effective.

 

[BKC]

you shouldn't use fwg mons because you want fwg (which often leads to weaknesses to things like tspikes and electrics) but because the mons work well together, like in the examples you gave. the common mentality of "i started this team with / then i added suicune shaymin heatran because i wanted fwg" is pretty dumb.

 

[george182]

True.

 

[Warped Worlds]

I agree with this, but I agree with BKC a little more. Most F/W/G cores suck, but some are very important for some teams like semi stall. Don't use F/W/G just because it looks pretty, use it because you have a reason to use it besides rock paper scissors. One of the biggest flaws of F/W/G is everyone prepares for it when teambuilding today, which is why you should have more of a reason for using it besides defensive synergy. I think if you do have F/W/G on your team though, it is almost like a core or a secondary core even if unintended which is ok. It is only natural that they would be good defensively, as long as the F/W/G mentality didn't mess with your teambuilding, and you actually put thought and logic into your teambuilding process. Some very good teams use F/W/G, and I have a good team which uses it as well. The F/W/G core was unintended.

 

[george182]

Don't use F/W/G just because it looks pretty

But that's one of the best things about FWG :P

 

[Mulligan]

As I said in the Latias discussion thread, the biggest reason the whole FWG core disgusted (still disgusts just thinking about it) me is because it promoted lazy teambuilding. DPP is a metagame that offers a player quite a few options as far as creativity goes, whether offensively or defensively. You really don't have to use a FWG core to have a great team, but a lot of times players end up returning to the "safety" of it. I do understand where it kinda comes from though. Towards the end of DPP, Salamence was banned and Grass types were getting extremely popular mainly due to the lack of Dragons, particularly Shaymin. When BW released, this was the metagame that DPP was left with and everyone knows that old metagames don't change as far as new mechanics, they only trend. The people I tended to see "abuse" the FWG cores were either players that were completely new to DPP or older vets that hadn't really touched DPP since BW1 released.

Despite my feelings about it, though, I'd rather have this metagame than the previous ones before it. I think players just want to win above all else, which is unfortunate in such a creative and diverse metagame like this one at least as far as teambuilding is concerned. There's a bunch of lowered-tiered 'mons that don't make up the FWG core and are perfectly viable on OU teams. Sometimes, they are the better option than their OU counterpart. Winning is a good thing, but that shouldn't be your only purpose IMO. You can think outside the box and still be competitive in DPP.

This, plus what BKC and LizardMan said, sums up how I feel about it. I did use FWG cores, but a lot of times, like LizardMan said, they are unintended. I didn't go in thinking "gotta have an FWG core" when building a team like some other players did/probably still do.

 

[Warped Worlds]

252 HP / 252 Spe Shuca Boom Heatran / Bold Reflect Starmie / Spec'd Jolteon / OTR Bronzong / Bulky DD Nite / Mixed Abomasnow

Is not lazy teambuilding, but it uses a F/W/G core. Unintentional but it uses it to great effect. I agree with your post. The players who go in and say "im going to use F/W/G" or the old old vets, or the new DPP players are only limiting theirselves as a player. Once people learn the metagame and learn how to teambuild in this generation, it opens up several new doors due to how balanced and good the metagame really is.

Also yeah, maximizing your win rate depends on how creative you can be.

 

[george182]

I'll definitely disagree with the creativity front. Looking for weaknesses in the metagame and using non-standand methods to take advantage of them is a great way to win games. But there is nothing wrong doing what everyone else does, just trying to do it better.

I'd like to add that FWG as a generic concept is good for momentum. As the three types don't share and weaknesses and together they have useful resists. Obviously it's not the only core that does this.

 

[BKC]

While this is an extremely hipster thing to say, doing what everyone else does is not good. By doing it you're putting yourself at a disadvantage against someone good. If you're ok with trying to beat a top player with Heatran / Shaymin / Starmie / Gengar / Flygon / Zapdos then go ahead but that's exactly what the other guy has (or should have) prepared for and it's probably (similar to) what he was hoping to run into. It lets him read your team and accurately guess your remaining pkmn without much effort, not to mention that his team is most likely (or should be) made to have little trouble against standard shit like that.

 

[Warped Worlds]

Yeah I meant what BKC meant.

"But there is nothing wrong doing what everyone else does, just trying to do it better." The only thing is, this takes a good amount of creativity. Creativity to avoid the consequences of losing to the anti metagame teams, and creativity to be less predictable. Trying to do what other people do but better also does not directly attack the metagame, which requires you to be creative to do so while also sticking to your original goal.

 

[george182]

I dunno, I defiantly think playing 'standard' is very underrated.

Firstly no one can be 100% sure of your remaining pokemon as long as you don't always use standard things. Obviously every battler needs to have to ability to mix things up.

Secondly you can play randomly with standard things. I'm not talking about unique movesets, I'm talking about the move choices you make in game. As long as this part is kept random, then you are not predictable. Urgh, I tried explaining this concept to one of my tutees.

Each situation you face in game there are usually multiple 'viable' options available to you. You shouldn't always pick the 'best' option because this makes you predictable and as long as you switch it up sometimes, then you aren't predictable.

Now back to the point, standard pokemon tend to give you more options (that's part of the reason they become standard). Unique movesets/pokemon tend to be more channeled down their pre-chosen path, Torment Tran is a great example of this (although not really creative anymore). What I'm saying is that the ability to be more creative in game makes up for the lack of creativity in your pokemon.

I've beaten top players with standard teams (things they are prepared for). Using this standard team I've had multiple opponents complain about a bad team match-up and broken down stall from people like M-Dragon, Fakes and Kevin Garrett. I don't think using standard teams makes it harder to break your opponent down or make you more predictable as long as you play creatively, which every good battler does.

I'm not saying don't be creative in your teams. In fact I think having and using creative teams is a necessity. But I believe there is nothing wrong with playing standard once in a while.

 

[Warped Worlds]

I can also see my easiest opponents are the ones who have teams which I can read like a book. Even if they play well. There is multiple viable options in creative teams, and that is what sets you apart from the good players if you are a great player. It is an important thing which gives you the strength and edge over the average player.

Using Torment Tran isn't really playing standard though, unless your using a standard team. Your geo stall for example wasn't really standard. As a competitive player, every edge you can get is very neccessary.

That team you linked isn't that standard by the way. It uses Starmie lead, which isn't a metagame standard (even if some people use it and isn't too uncommon.) It has offensive DD Gyarados with Taunt (instead of the Suicune or Vaporeon which people usually use), rocker Metagross (which is not normally seen on F/W/G teams and you have Zen Headbutt), Sub WoW SpDef Tran. The only really bog standard mons it has are Leech Seed Shaymin, and Scarf Flygon. The team also isn't weak to much, while the standardish teams are weaker to more or are easier to directly plan for.

So even it may be a bit "standard" to some players, it really isn't to the point where it would cripple you unless they saw the team before. (I fought that team many times since its well known and a good team and I know it by heart, but I am sure there is many players who won't know it and could lose to it by suprise WoW Tran or something.)