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[First RMT] Damp Tenacity

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Hylian Auree, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. Hylian Auree

    Hylian Auree

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    5


    [​IMG]

    Hey, all! I'm an avid Pokemon fan who's recently gotten into competitive play. I've always had a thing for water- and grass-type Pokemon, so naturally Rain Dance teams have sparked my interest. For a while now I've been messing around with several builds, though lately my focus has been on rain stalling. A few days ago I stumbled upon Smogon's profile for Parasect, a grass-type Pokemon I absolutely adore. In combination with Drizzle, the mushroom bug performs solidly as a Spore-SubSeed staller. This team is built around that concept, essentially combining entry hazards and late-game switchouts forced by Spore-Seed to slowly wear down the opponents. I'm new to Smogon forums, so this is also my first RMT.

    The team has been doing pretty well so far, though advice and tweaks from more experienced players will hopefully further ameliorate it. Any and all suggestions are welcome; however, I really want to keep Parasect on the team, which is what it was built around in the first place. So, without further ado, I present you our team members. Changes made to the team following discussion will be bolded.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Politoed @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Protect
    - Perish Song

    The permanent rain summoner, Politoed is a necessity to any Rain Dance team. I opted for a standard, bulky set to ensure longevity and outlive other weather inducers. Scald receives a nice rain-STAB boost and a handy burn rate to scare physical attackers, Toxic breaks down walls and injures Ninetales, Protect is useful for scouting and additional leftover recovery, and Perish Song impedes set-up sweepers and (to an extent) Baton Pass chains. The reason I went with a -Spe nature and 0 Spe IVs is to set up weather first turn versus standard Tyranitar and Abomasnow support sets.

    [​IMG]

    Chansey @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Seismic Toss
    - Softboiled
    - Heal Bell

    Chansey, the bulkiest pink blob anyone could ask for. She easily sponges any special hit that isn't Focus Blast, offers team support with Stealth Rock and serves as a cleric with Heal Bell. I previously ran Wish in place of Softboiled, though I found that without Protect she often needs the immediate recovery, and most of my team has some means of recovering anyway. Works really well as a defensive core alongside Skarmory.

    [​IMG]

    Skarmory @ [​IMG]*
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 SpD
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind
    - Brave Bird

    A sturdy sky armor, Skarmory really is one of the best physical walls available to rain teams. A whopping base 140 Def stat, a handful of resistances, only two weakness -- one of which is largely mitigated thanks to rain -- and a reliable means of recovery and phazing give this bird incredible staying power. It is usually able to set multiple layers of spikes with relative ease, and can wear down opponents by whirlwinding them into hazards. Taunt prevents it from getting hit by status, as well as from being set-up bait for slower hazard setters and boosting attackers. I have considered running Brave Bird over Taunt, but the latter has been a great success so far. I am open to advice on this.

    Update: I have decided to go with Brave Bird over Taunt after all to hit threats like Breloom, Toxicroak and Celebi and to prevent being total setup fodder for taunt users
    [​IMG]

    Starmie @ [​IMG]*
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover

    With the hazard setters covered, the team needed a way to deal with hazards from the opposing side. Starmie seemed like the best choice here, for numerous reasons: It is incredibly fast, has passable bulk and a reliable means of recovery, can cure of status just by switching out, and packs good special attack to hit incoming spinblockers hard. I opted to go with Hydro Pump and Thunder over Scald and Thunderbolt for the extra power and reliability in rain. I chose this EV spread in order to outspeed max invested base 110 Spe Pokemon and carry some extra bulk and power, as fellow base 115 Spe Pokemon either do not form a significant threat or are countered by other team members.

    Update: I have, per discussion, replaced Thunder with Ice Beam to hit certain threats to the team a bit harder, namely Breloom and Thundurus-T. To ensure 1HKOs against these threats, Starmie now holds an Expert Belt for extra super effective power. A slight change has been made to the EV spread as well.
    [​IMG]
    Jellicent @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Cursed Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Shadow Ball
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    When the premise of a team is to rack up damage through hazards, it is only natural to consider the inclusion of a reliable Rapid Spin blocker. Jellicent fits this role beautifully; it has two great abilities to pick from, good bulk, reliable recovery and a nice support movepool. Taunt and Scald are a must on any such jellyfish, while Shadow Ball hits Starmie hard (and does solid damage to Celebi and Lati@s). I decided to go with Cursed Body over Water Absorb, since most of my team is already water proof -- two members that resist it and one with Dry Skin -- and the chance of disabling an attacking move is really neat in combination with Taunt. Jellicent's typing allows it to switch into Fighting moves as well; it does a fair job at countering Terrakion, one of the team's larger threats.

    Update: The 44 EVs initially placed in SpD have been moved to Spe to ensure taunting fellow Jellicent and to outspeed certain Tyranitar sets.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Parasect @ [​IMG]
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
    Careful Nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Spore
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute
    - Protect

    Parasect, the shining star of the team and the incentive for its creation. While many would instead opt for its mushroom sibling, Amoonguss, Parasect still has a nice niche on rain teams as one of my favorite Pokemon. Its access to the notorious Spore, which puts to sleep anything it pleases, is one of its most rewarding qualities. With Dry Skin, Leftovers, Leech Seed, and passable bulk, Parasect is able to take hits and recover ridiculous amounts of health every turn by alternating between Substitute and Protect, all the while slowly wearing down the opponent. For many, the only way to end this suffering is by switching out, although with hazards in place, one must think twice before doing so. I chose to run Protect over X-Scissor for longevity and extra health sapping, though I am open to change this. In essence, once its hardest counters are eliminated (think: anything with Stone Edge) and hazards are up, Parasect can incessantly harass its opponents late game.

    [​IMG]

    Firstly, other weather inducers are of course a threat to the team. Sun in particular heavily reduces the team's viability. However, Politoed does have the advantage of hitting Ninetales and Tyranitar for super effective damage, and with so many hazards the rare Abomasnow is easily worn down. This team also has some issues with Baton Pass teams, although with proper prediction a combination of Perish Song, Taunt and Whirlwind can put a stop to things.

    Some specific threats:

    [​IMG]
    Breloom seriously harasses this team. The only thing that can take its hits well is Skarmory, but even then Spore is a pain and the SubPunch variants do a good amount of damage. I usually try to whirlwind them as soon as I wake up, and Taunt if I predict them to switch in. This is one of the reasons I am considering Brave Bird.

    [​IMG]
    Nasty Plot variants. While Chansey absorbs unboosted Thunder/Thunderbolt with ease, the Taunt/Nasty Plot variants will seriously destroy this team. I usually try to switch into Parasect as soon as possible, sponge a HP Ice and Spore-Seed it, which works pretty alright if I'm in time.
    [​IMG]
    While not as big of a threat as the other two thanks to Chansey, Latios is still pretty annoying. No spikes and neutral damage to Stealth Rock doesn't help either, and the Trick variants will leave Chansey rather crippled. I usually sponge a Draco Meteor with Chansey and switch to Skarmory when they're forced to switch out. The more they switch the more hazard damage, so I guess it works out alright. Jellicent can also hit with a super effective Shadow Ball provided Latios doesn't have a fresh Draco Meteor at its disposable.

    [​IMG]
    While Skarmory does an okay job taking hits, 30-40% damage and the chance of a crit is still worrisome. Switching from Chansey into Jellicent on the Choice variants works as well, and again forces the opponent to switch (yay hazards). In general, Jellicent and Politoed do fairly well against Terrakion provided they're at high health.

    [​IMG]
    Calm Mind Jirachi is a pain, really. I usually try to have either Skarmory or Politoed in to Phaze/Perish Song it, or Taunt it with Jellicent, break the sub, go to Parasect and Spore Seed. Either of those strats works fine if I predict well and react in time.

    *I will add more threats as they come/are discussed*

    [​IMG]
    Parasect and rain are two of my favorite things around, so naturally this is a very fun team for me to use. I know the slot could be used for something better, but it's something I'll have to deal with it. Again, I am open to any suggestions -- as long as Amoonguss isn't one of them! Thanks for reading and rating!

    ---
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


  2. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Hey there,

    This is a solid team and it's quite original too so good job for have built it.

    However, first of all, I suggest you to use SubstituteToxic Tentacruel instead of your Jellicent for two simple reasons, the first is that SubToxic Tentacruel can also spin against Jellicent which your Starmie can't do and it's with Toxic a better Rapid Spin user for Stall teams in general because it has more staying power than Starmie, the second is that Tentacruel can't be Pursuit'd by Tyranitar and Scizor, which is
    very good in my opinion since Tyranitar and Scizor are quite common nowadays and if you lose Starmie hazards can be troublesome for your stall. An EV spread of 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe with a moveset of Substitute, Toxic, Scald and Rapid Spin, with Timid nature and with Black Sludge should work fine on your team.

    Second, I'd probably use Jellicent with Will-O-Wisp replacing Shadow Ball and I'd move 44 EVs from SDef to Speed because 44 EVs on Speed allow you to outspeed Scizor and to burn it with Will-O-Wisp, it's a must on Jellicent in my opinion since it allows to burn Scizor, Ferrothorn and Tyranitar as well which can give some problem to Jellicent if it lacks Will-O-Wisp. You can also use Jellicent with 116 EVs on Speed which allows to outspeed Choice Band Tyranitar with 104 EVs on Speed, the most common Tyranitar in the current BW OU metagame, since Jellicent is your main counter for stuff such as Keldeo and your Rapid Spin blocker as well, you should try to use a faster Jellicent if you don't want to see your Jellicent Pursuit'd.

    As last thing, I'd definitely use Brave Bird instead of Taunt on Skarmory because both Toxicroak and Breloom are a pain for your team and with Brave Bird you can handle them easily, Taunt is a good option and an useful move too but Brave Bird is a better choice for your team since Breloom and Toxicroak can simple 6-0'd your current team without any problem and that isn't very good since a Stall team should be as solid as possible and even if I think your team is built very well, you must avoid to get 6-0'd by a x Pokemon if possible.

    Good luck!
  3. Hylian Auree

    Hylian Auree

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
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    Hey Alexander,

    Thanks for your suggestions. I did run Tentacruel at first, albeit with a different set, but replaced him with Starmie because I found I was lacking the power to deal with some spinblockers. However, your recommended set seems to fit better, and I will definitely try it out. As for the Jellicent, you caught me on a mistake there; the 44 EVs were invested in SDef, not SAtk, sorry! I will try to run your set instead, although personally I feel Will-O-Wisp is a bit redundant to Scald, and most physical attackers don't bother Jellicent too much (except for Tyranitar, who is at least damaged considerably by Scald).

    I agree with you on Brave Bird, and I will make the change right away. Thanks!
  4. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
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    Hey there,

    I haven't rated in a while; hopefully I can still offer some helpful tips.

    Being that this is a stall team, defensive synergy is extremely important, because not having an answer to a certain type of attack is simply, not ok. If you look at your team, there are quite a few notable weaknesses. For one, you have a big Electric type weakness- 4 weak with only one resist. This makes you especially weak to pokemon like Nasty Plot Thundurus-T, who can set up on Chansey and then proceed to deal heavy amounts of damage. The fact that your team consists of 3 water types is where the problem lies, imo. You can try Ice Beam over Thunder on Starmie to hit Thundurus-T and Dragons, and this will definitely help take care of that problem. You can use Chansey / Parasect to handle Rotom. You do not really need Thunder because most flying types are hit by Ice Beam even harder and water types can be stalled with Jellicent / Parasect.

    You might also have some trouble handling some select Grass types. Grass types that can dent Skarmory can deal quite a lot of damage; Nasty Plot Celebi can do this and more, hitting Skarm for a lot with HP Fire, and leeching off of Chansey's HP stat with Giga Drain. For this reason, using Brave Bird over Taunt is probably a good idea, as it lets you dent those Grass types that not only deal damage but also wall Parasect. Starmie's new Ice Beam can also help you handle pokemon like Breloom.

    Other than that, I think you seem pretty good. Sun could be a problem, but it can be overcome with conservative Toed and Chansey playing. Good luck!
  5. Lan119

    Lan119

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
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    Hey, I really like the stall team, especially now that Deo-D is banned. The first thing I wanted to mention is that I question the decision to change Starmie to Tentacruel is one I question. I really think that this team's biggest problem is the lack of speed. Every pokemon is very critical to the object of this team, and if one goes down, your in a lot of trouble. My first suggestion here is to run Shed Shell on your Skarmory over Leftovers. If Skarmory is trapped by a Magnezone, you have no line of defensive against some of the powerful dragons in OU. I also agree that you should have Brave Bird over Taunt; it just so much more utility. Back to the complaint I had about getting rid of Starmie. Tentacruel has a lot of utility against some of the bulky fighters that are going to hurt. However, most fighters are going to 2HKO Tentacruel, and then what is Tentacruel walling that Jellicent isn't. Like, he mentions that you face a lot of risks when facing pursuiters, by Surf really hurts Scizor and Tyranitar, and if you think that either has a Scarf, just play conservatively with Starmie.

    Edit: Also run Ice Beam for dragons and fliers, Thunder only hits Jellicent and Parasect loves facing it.
  6. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
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    Hey really solid stall team you have here. Since you did a good job with covering many threats to your team, there are few suggestions to be made, and most of them already have been. However, one thing did catch my eye that could be problematic. If you were to scrap shadow ball on your jellicent and thunder on your starmie as has been suggested, the only way you could hit opposing jellicent for damage would be hazards and ice beam as jellicent that run 84 speed Ev's will be able to outspeed and taunt everything besides starmie on your team. By the way, it is pretty common for people to run this. So to prevent this from happening you have a few options. First, you could run 8 speed Ev's and a neutral nature on your politoed to outspeed any taunts and proceed to toxic. You could also keep shadow ball and replace scald with will o wisp on your jellicent, or run 84 speed Ev's as well to at least speed tie. Lastly, you could run a standard rapid spin + 3 attacks set with life orb on your starmie for better overall coverage and power. You have enough bulk on the team anyways so starmie won't have to take many hits and the ability to ohko threats like thundurus-t, breloom, boosting dragons, etc. will be much appreciated.

    Sorry for the poor presentation, I did this from my phone, but hopefully this will help you and good luck with the team!
  7. VN.

    VN. the birds pt. 1
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    I love the art! Cool team as well.

    Responding to your list of threats, I think that you can make Breloom and Terrakion a lot easier to deal with by trying a Tangrowth over your Parasect. Tangrowth is a very potent and underrated wall that benefits greatly from rain being up, allowing it tank any renegade fire punches like they're nothing. It's acess to HP Ice along with 100/125 physical bulk makes it a fantastic counter to Breloom and Terrakion and the ability to get both Leftovers and Regenerator ensures it to have great staying power. Tangrowth also retains the ability to use Sleep Powder that Parasect had [although a bit less accurate], which is always a huge advantage for stall as the match becomes 5-6 from then on. Tangrowth can easily take any attack from Banded or +0 Terrakion and survives any +2 attacks as well, even after SR, save a high roll +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge. Breloom has a hard time breaking Tangrowth as well, given that it resists Bullet Seed and only takes 43.07% - 50.5% from +2 Mach Punch. Tangrowth also helps combat Dragmag if Skarmory is trapped since it still beats Mence/Chomp/Dragonite pretty easily, especially since their weapon in Fire blast is now crippled thanks to rain. Aside from Tangrowth, I think you can make some additional changes to increase the team's effectiveness. First of all, Chansey definitely needs Toxic, so that it can beat Pokemon like Lati@s, Starmie, CM Virizion and other threatening Pokes that may switch in on Chansey to get an advantage. Status really shouldn't be a huge thing if you play smart; Toxic is much more of a necessity on Chansey. Toxic can also help against Thundurus-T as well, who really isn't as much of a problem since Chansey can beat Agility and Starmie outspeeds/kos Nasty plot. I'd also run 16 Spe on Toed to get to the 180 benchmark that a lot of Skarmory and CB Tar want to hit; it isn't really a huge change in investment on your part and could help down the road.

    Change Summary:

    Chansey:
    Heal Bell->Toxic

    Politoed:
    16 Def EVs->Speed

    [​IMG]
    Tangrowth (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Leech Seed
    - Sleep Powder
  8. JolteonTrainer

    JolteonTrainer

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    Tbh, putting Ice Beam instead of hydro pump or thunder will solve Thunderus T and Breloom threats. Just need to make sure you keep Starmie alive long enough for the end game.
  9. Hylian Auree

    Hylian Auree

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    Hey all, thanks for your replies and suggestions!
    First off, the idea that I immediately loved was Shed Shell for Skarmory. Magnezone, whom I forgot to add to the threat list, has been a pain for Skarmory so far, and Shed Shell is the perfect answer to this. Lefties recovery will be missed but it has Roost anyway, so this is definitely a good change imo.

    I'm still a bit stuck as to what to do about the Starmie/Tentacruel dilemma. Both have amazing qualities to them, though I'm leaning more toward MCBarrett's suggestion. The team is quite bulky in general, and having a bit of power to deal with threats such as Thundurus and Breloom is pretty sweet. I have one question: How does Expert Belt instead of Life Orb sound? It is much less predictable and because of the increased damage output may fool people into thinking I'm Choice Specs locked into a move, which is always a plus.

    I'm also considering the speed EVs on Jellicent, though I'm still a bit torn on the moveset. Let me know what you guys think is the best compromise, since there were quite a few mixed opinions.
  10. scary face

    scary face

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    Starmie is fine as the rapid spinner, it can 2HKO Jellicents with thunder so no need to switch to Tentacruel. Your team is abit weak to volt switch so you might change parasect to a water/ground type like Gastrodon
  11. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Starmie with 20 EVs on SAtk can't 2HKO Jellicent with 252 EVs on HP anyway.
  12. scary face

    scary face

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    Then use 252 Evs in Satk..
  13. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    I definitely think you should keep your Starmie instead of Tentacruel. While this may seem as if it's 'against the rule of traditional stall', Starmie can actually benefit your team a lot by using its Speed and decent power to check wall breakers, preventing your opponentfrom getting past your stalling techniques. Tentacruel fails to do this, which is why I think Starmie should stay.

    However, in regards to its spread / set, I still think you should try to retain as much bulk as possible, because it's your spinner, and you'll eventually need to bring it in multiple times to clear SR for Parasect. For this reason, I think you need to keep your set of Rapid Spin / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Recover. Recover is key as it helps Starmie stay alive for a longer period of time. Hydro Pump is STAB ofc and, when boosted by Rain, can hit quite hard. Rapid Spin is obvious, to help your team overcome SR. You might be wondering why I think Ice Beam works better than Thunder- after all, Thunder is much more powerful and can paralyze. Howeer, Starmie's job is to check wall breakers, not to be a wallbreaker itself. Therefore, you are not supposed to be trying to use Thunder to break Jellicent and other water type walls; you are supposed to be trying to use Ice Beam to KO many of the tier's best wallbreakers, including Garchomp, Breloom, Lati@s, Lando-I, and Thundy-I. Stall in general doesn't have as much trouble handling defense as it does offense- for counterstalling can effectively take down Jellicent, etc (ie Toxic from Politoed.)

    Now, onto a spread for Starmie. I think a spread of plain and simple 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe Timid with Life Orb is your best bet. This spread gves you pretty much the same amount of bulk, but some extra power- enough extra power to OHKO Thundy-T in Rain, OHKO Gengar after SR in Rain, 2HKO SpDef Ttar after SR in Sand, 2HKO Lati@s, and of course OHKO Breloom, Garchomp, Salamence, and Landorus-I (and Dragonite after SR) No extra investment is needed for Starmie's SpA because those threats are the only thing you need to KO, so the rest are efficiently stored in HP for bulk and Spe to outspeed those threats.
  14. MCBarrett

    MCBarrett i love it when you call me big hoppa
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    That's only on specially defensive variants. 20 EVs on SAtk with a Life Orb will 2HKO any physically defensive Jellicent, and even specially defensive variants take 40-48%.

    I think a 2 attack plus Life Orb set like Electrolyte suggested will work fine as long as you either run Shadow Ball on your Jellicent or run enough speed with Politoed to outrun opposing Jellicent like I said earlier just so it doesn't become too much of a problem. Expert Belt should be a good option too since everything you are trying to hit in your threats list is hit super effectively by either Hydro Pump or Ice Beam, other than Magnezone.
  15. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

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    Do you mean 4 SpA?
  16. Hylian Auree

    Hylian Auree

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    Electrolyte, I am really liking that suggestion. So far I have made these changes:

    Skarmory:
    Taunt -> Brave Bird
    Leftovers -> Shed Shell

    Jellicent:
    44 SDef EVs to Spd

    Starmie:
    Leftovers -> Expert Belt
    Thunder -> Ice Beam

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