1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

First RMT OU 4th Gen

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by B-Zard, Jul 28, 2011.

  1. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Hello guys this is my first RMT. I wanted to use a few pokes (or movesets) I haven’t used before. Some of them I have used already but I just wanted to give them different positions in my team.

    Team Building Process

    [​IMG]
    I wanted a lead that I’ve never used before and that is very powerful, so I came up with Scizor. I saw a few people using Scizor as a lead and to me it looked very effective since nobody seems to expect it as a lead.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Of course I needed a poke which could lay up rocks, so there is my second member Swampert. Swampert is pretty reliable of setting op rocks it also matches up pretty good with Scizor resiting each other weakness.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    Third I wanted an offensive poke with good defenses and resistances that could help other team members, so here is Dragonite. It works great with Swampert and Scizor especially with the resitances and weaknesses.
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Next I wanted a bulky water type which could take a lot of attacks. I wanted to try out Milotic since I have never used it before. I always chose Vaporeon but now I wanted to try out someone else.
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    I still needed a rapid spin blocker and a choice scarfer so Rotom-A immediately came to mind. With its good defenses and access to a strong fire type move I chose the Heat form over the other ones. Yea it off course has a pretty cool sprite.
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    In the final slot I wanted a grass type probably one which could absorb toxic spikes and is fast so Roserade fits these things best. With access to Natural Cure and Leech Seed it is a good supporter of my team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    This was my team when I had Dragonite as a lead instead of Scizor. If you compare it with my current team Dragonite is replaced by Machamp. I chose Heatran over Swampert since with Heatran I got a FWG core. Starmie over Milotic since it had Rapid Spin and was much more offensive. Shaymin went over Roserade since it was more bulky, although it doesn't have access to Toxic Spikes.

    Current team
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    This is how my team turned out. With a lot of suggestions you can see what I chose to be best and what came out of it.

    Movesets

    [​IMG]

    Machamp @ Lum Berry
    Ability: No Guard
    Adamant Nature, 240 hp, 248 att, 12 spdef, 8 speed
    - DynamicPunch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch
    - Bullet Punch

    This is my lead which I really like. It works against most other leads for example suicide ones. The only leads which are a problem are Metagross (especially Banded ones with Zen Headbutt), banded Azelfs with Zen Headbutt (also LO versions), lead Gallades and sometimes opposing Machamp when losing the speed tie.
    Ice Punch/ Stone Edge depends on what I like. Ice Punch ko's lead Dragontie, which Stone Edge doesn't even after taking life orb damage when attacking me. Stone Edge is mainly for Gyara who loved coming in on Machamp so after a few battles I decided changing Ice Punch to Stone Edge, but I found out after Intimidate Stone Edge still didn't do enough so I changed it back to Ice Punch.

    [​IMG]

    Scizor @ Choice Band
    Ability: Technician
    Adamant Nature, 248 hp, 252 att, 8 speed
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit

    Bullet Punch for Stab and combined with Techinician and Choice Band very powerful. U-turn for scouting. Superpower is a very strong move combined with Choice Band. Pursuit is for trapping ghosts and psychic types for example killing Banded Azelfs that killed my Machamp with Zen Headbutt.

    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Shuca Berry
    Ability: Flash Fire
    Naive Nature, 4 hp, 252 spatt, 252 speed
    - Stealth Rock
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Will-O-Wisp

    My stealth rock user. Fire Blast for power and STAB and I chose it over Flamethrower. With 85 acc and 120 base power it is strong and still pretty reliable. Earth Power is mainly for coverage and because every Heatran carries it. Wow is to surprise physical attackers like DD Gyara and DD Nite or even Ttar who love to switch in on Tran. Thanks Tomahawk and sandshrewz for this set ;).

    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Timid Nature, 252 hp, 4 spatt, 252 speed
    - Surf
    - Thunderbolt
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Beam

    My rapid spinner so my team doesn't have to worry about entry hazard damage or being toxiced by toxic spikes. Surf for STAB and because it is more reliable than Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt is mainly for Gyarados and other waters and Ice Beam for Grass types and Dragonite, Flygon and Gliscor. I have used this set before with Recover and I notices I didn't use it at all, so thats why I chose Ice Beam over Recover. Life Orb is for some extra power, especially since I have no spatt investment. Thanks 2sly4u for this set.
    [​IMG]
    Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    Timid Nature, 4 hp, 252 spatt, 252 speed
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Overheat
    - Trick

    This is my Choice Scarfer and spin blocker. I know this set is Ttar weak but besides Ttar I think it will work. Tbolt and Shadow Ball for STAB and Overheat to kill stuff like Jirachi and Breloom. Trick to mess up walls like Blissey.
    [​IMG]
    Shaymin @ Leftovers
    Timid Nature, 4 hp, 252 spatt, 252 speed
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - HP Fire
    - Leech Seed

    Seed Flare is Shaymin's best attack and is STABed. Earth Power for coverage and to hit Fire types who love to come in on Shaymin, Hp Fire is for Scizor and other Steel types not named Heatran and off course to hit opposing grass types. Leech Seed is to recover my team and off course to do something against Bliss. I first had Rest on this Shaymin but I found out during battles that Leech Seed worked better. Thanks to 2sly4u I chose it over Roserade.

    So this is my team and feedback will be greatly appreciated!
  2. Faladran

    Faladran
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,139
    Hi, this is a cool looking team. I think you should definitely try a different lead, though; Scizor matches up badly against Heatran, Skarmory, Forretress, and sleep leads. In my opinion, lead Dragonite with a Lum Berry would work well in the first position. This gives you a way to beat sleep leads with the proper attack + Extremespeed. You'll probably want to use Fire Blast to help make up for the loss in power; 85 accuracy is still pretty reliable.

    Definitely consider Haze > Toxic on Milotic. Most switch-ins to Milotic will have Natural Cure, whereas Haze will prevent stat boosters like Kingdra from setting up on you. Swampert and Scizor can handle it to a degree, but both lack recovery and can be flinched by Waterfall. Ice Beam is another option if you'd like to hit Grass-types on the switch. Also, try out HP Fire > Substitute and Rest or Synthesis > Leech Seed on Roserade. This team lacks a solid switch-in to CB Scizor's U-turn, so you need HP Fire to hit it and other Steels. Use an EV spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD to ensure you can survive a CB Bullet Punch. Leech Seed can also be quite unreliable for recovery, especially when opponents apply pressure. Synthesis is good for 50% instant recovery, whereas Rest works with Natural Cure to heal you up to full so you can switch out. Good luck with your team!
  3. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Okay thanks for helping me. I will try using Dragonite as a lead since with Lum Berry it can beat sleep leads. Is this a good set:

    [​IMG]
    Dragonite @ Lum Berry
    Abilibty: Inner Focus
    Quiet Nature, 252 att, 252 spatt, 6 speed
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Earthquake
    - Extremespeed

    Is EQ > Superpower better as a lead or Superpower > EQ?


    Are there any more suggestions to improve my team?
  4. 2sly4u

    2sly4u

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    535
    Hey B-zard, I'm more than happy to give you a rate.

    First off, I totally agree with Faladran as far as your lead goes. Scizor loses to many common leads such as Azelf, Heatran, sleep leads and occasionally Machamp with Speed EVs. Lum Berry Dragonite can handle all of those just fine (except Machamp, but hardly anyone really does well against him).

    For me, Milotic seems expendable. You already have a Bulky Water in Swampert, and he can handle Setup Sweepers with Roar (Gyarados can be problematic, but you have Rotom for him). I'd replace her with either Heatran or Starmie. Heatran gives you arguably the best Fire type in the game, completing your FWG core, alongside Swamy and Roserade. He can run many sets, but I recommend the Substitue set.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran@Leftovers
    Naive Nature, 252 SpA, 4SpD, 252Spe
    Fire Blast
    Substitute
    Earth Power
    Explosion/ Toxic

    Fire Blast is for STAB, while Earth Power is basically mandatory on Heatran. Substitute eases prediction for you and protects you from status. The last move is up to you. Explosion lets you KO basically anything you can't handle otherwise, such as Blissey, while Toxic is very helpful against Stall teams.

    Starmie, on the other hand, has the same primary typing as Milotic. However, she has one big advantage: Rapid Spin. This will really help a good chunk of your team, since almost all of its is damaged by Spikes. Here's my recommended set:

    [​IMG]
    Starmie@Leftovers
    Timid Nature, 252 HP, 4SpD, 252Spe
    Surf
    Thunderbolt
    Rapid Spin
    Recover/Ice Beam

    This Starmie, while nowhere near as powerful as the Life Orb variant, provides your team with the coveted Rapid Spin. This lets you beat Stall much easier, and lets Dragonite avoid being mauled by his nasty SR weakness. Surf is STAB, while Thunderbolt nails Gyarados and other Waters. Recover is recommended in the last slot, as it lets you switch in and Spin multiple times in a match. However, Ice Beam may prove useful against opposing Dagonite and Flygon.

    Lastly, if you opt for Starmie, I'd go for Shaymin over Roserade. Rapid Spin on Starmie removes the need for a T-Spikes absorber, and Shaymin is better both offensively and defensively. Here's my recommended set:

    [​IMG]
    Shaymin@Leftovers
    Timid Nature, 252SpA, 4SpD, 252 Spe
    Seed Flare
    Earth Power
    HP Fire
    Rest

    This Shaymin is both a potent offensive threat and bulky enough to utilize the Natural Cure/Rest combo (he's much better at it than Roserade). Seed Flare is unique to Shaymin, and is probably the best Grass move in the game. Earth Power is for coverage. HP Fire lets you roast Scizors and other grass types who think they can force you out, though HP Ice is an option if Dragons scare you. Rest, of course, lets you regain all your health. As a bonus, between Starmie and Shaymin, you would have two status absorbers.

    So, a quick recap:
    1)Dragonite to Lead position

    2)Heatran or Starmie over Milotic

    3)If Starmie, Shaymin over Roserade

    That's all I have. Good Luck!
  5. Smith

    Smith is a 90's bitch
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,341
    Hey B-Zard, I haven't done a 4th gen team in a while so cut me some slack but I'd be happy to rate! I'm going to assume in my rate that you decide to make Dragonite your lead, which again seems to be a much better choice. The team actually looks pretty solid, but I think that something that could trouble you is SD Lucario. Rotom is a great check, but its entire set is ScarfTar fodder, Lucario's most common team-mate. I'd also sorry about Offensive SubSplit or SubCharge Rotom, as he can set up subs fairly easily on Roserade or BP locked Scizor and really mess you up- nothing is very comfortable taking his powerful attacks, and while Swampert can roar him away, without recovery or significant special defensive investment you won't be able to handle his powerful shadow balls for long.

    Fortunately this can be patched up pretty easily. You might want to try Will o Wisp over Overheat on Rotom- it isn't a perfect solution, but in the early game it gives you something to spam around until you know your opponents entire team so that Tyranitar doesn't poop on you. It also is generally more useful than Overheat- you handle the likes of Metagross and Scizor fine without it, and indeed probably incur more damage with Will o Wisp anyway. Also, on Roserade, try using Energy Ball over Grass Knot. It still hits plenty hard when it needs to, and can break Rotom's subs so you don't need to take any of his sass. It might also help against Vaporeon or Lanturn if you go toe to toe against them, and again you nail Swampert and Suicune hard enough anyway. That's all my advice, I hope this helps!
  6. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    2,277
    Hey B-Zard, got your message. This seems like a cool team, even more so if you implement the changes Faladran suggested, so I'm going to assume you do in this rate.

    Swords Dance Scizor seems like he could put a huge dent in your team. At +2, nothing on your team likes taking Bug Bite / Bullet Punch / Superpower. Milotic and Roserade are demolished by +2 Bug Bite, Dragonite gets KOed by a +2 Bullet Punch and Scizor gets KOed by a +2 Superpower. Swampert has a chance of being KOed by a +2 Bug Bite even when hazards aren't up, and with one layer of Spikes, it's a guaranteed KO (not to mention Swampert can't do anything back). Your only good way of dealing with him is Rotom, who is a good counter, but unfortunately very Pursuit weak. You have a similar problem with Swords Dance Lucario. After a Swords Dance, everything on your team bar Rotom gets KOed by Close Combat / Swords Dance. Combine that with the fact that Choice Scarf Tyranitar is a common partner to Lucario, and he is an annoying threat.

    You also seem to have a problem with offensive Grass-types. Nasty Plot Celebi can OHKO all of your team members with Grass Knot / Psychic / Hidden Power Fire, and a standard offensive Shaymin can defeat your team with just Seed Flare and Hidden Power Fire if he gets luck with SpD drops on Dragonite and Roserade.

    To fix these problems, I recommend using a Heatran over Swampert. Heatran is just as reliable for setting up rocks, but also beats Grass-types and Scizor. The set is:

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    Heatran @ Shuca Berry | Flash Fire
    Naive | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Stealth Rock / Fire Blast / Earth Power / Explosion


    I also recommend using Will-O-Wisp or Hydro Pump over Overheat on Rotom to fix its Pursuit weakness. That way, he is a more reliable spinblocker and revenge killer for Lucario and others.

    Good luck!
  7. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Ok thanks for the rates guys. I just edited the first post so you can see what came out of it.
  8. ENZ0

    ENZ0
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,347
    Hi B-Zard,

    Nice team! The team itself looks finishedl you seem to be able to handle both offense and stall effectively. I'm just gonna make you aware of some present threats, and suggest very small changes for the team.

    The offensive threats you should be aware of are: CM Wish Jirachi, Breloom, Shaymin, and Substitute Zapdos. CM Wish Jirachi has the potential to beat Scizor, Starmie, and Shaymin at +1. I just suggest you try to hurt it before you set up; Overheat over WoW might be nice on Rotom(H) to hit Jirachi, Breloom, and Shaymin but not completely necessary. The trade-off is not catching Scizor and Tyranitar on the switch-in. I think a small nitpick that will result better for your team is changing Starmie to a LO set. It is Starmie @ Life Orb | Timid Nature | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe | Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Rapid Spin, this set will provide the power to OHKO Zapdos after Stealth Rock and do over 50% on most Shaymin. The bulk is cool, but your team doesn't need it because Rotom(H) will check Gyarados. Also, with a LO set you can OHKO a decent amount of spinblockers i.e CS Rotom and Gengar. Keep the Overheat suggestion in mind, but a LO set on Starmie takes more priority imo.

    Hope this helps; good luck man!!!
  9. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Thanks for your advice although I still a bit confused. I like will-o-wisp because it can be useful on a ttar and luke etc. switch ins but at the same time being locked in it sucks. Scizor and Shaymin can take on ttar so this kinda makes overheat better. When I have overheat I have 3 pokes with fire type moves so Leaf storm might also be a good option since it is super effective on ttar and with shaymin I got another strong grass type move.

    For cm rachi my tran can handle it and even my trick rotom can give it a scarf.

    For Starmie I like the LO idea since it adds power to my moves and also because I didn't have a LO user, although I use Surf > Hydro Pump because I don't like the 80% accuracy cuz these moves always miss when you want them to hit.
  10. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Problem solved, I chose Overheat > Will-O-Wisp mainly because I don't like being locked into an status move. I know it works to beat Ttar but to me that seems the only benefit. Overheat on the other hand is to take down stuff like Breloom, Jirachi, Lucario and other steel an grass types who could give my team trouble. With Overheat on Rotom I know I have 4 pokes with fire type moves but I don't think that's a huge problem.
  11. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    Hello! I just have a few things to note with your team. Firstly you don't have a phazer. Most teams need one; if not baton pass (even without ingrain) will screw you instantly. I suggest using roar on heatran over explosion. You said explosion is for blissey (and others that you cant handle). However, since you have trick with rotom for blissey already, it seems pointless to trickscarf and then explode on it. A timely trickscarf is enough for blissey. Here's for I trickscarf blissey:
    since most blissey are paired with skarmory, send out rotom to skarmory. Most people would switch to blissey to absorb your tbolt or overheat. Instead of doing so, you can just use trick and predict the switch. If not you can fool your opponent that you are not going to use trick for a few times before finally using trick when you are confident he/she will definitely send out blissey against your rotom instead of something else like a swampert.

    Exploding is fun but I see no need for it in your team. It is also good to note that toxic spikes does not cripple your team (which happens to quite a lot of teams). I suggest using celebi over shaymin with the same stats. Celebi and heatran forms the infamous celetran core. You might want to keep earth power for the same reason as shaymin but I suggest heal bell over hp fire. You already have 2 counters for scizor and 3 fire moves may be too much. Heal bell allows celebi to act as a cleric in case your scizor accidentally get burn as scizor must remain healthy, being the only strong physical attacker in your team. You can opt WoW on rotom over trick. I used that for quite some time myself and I can provide some feedback. WoW instantly cripples rotom's usual counters like scarfttar. However, other than that, there isn't much use. Scarf WoW means you have to catch your target on the switch and it's definitely not good to be locked into. I generally find trick more useful but if you feel that crippling walls is better than crippling physical threats, stick with trick like you did.

    Scizor and rotom can be trapped and KOed by magnezone and ttar respectively but none of your teamates benefit from it. I used SD heracross alongside scarf rotom h as in the case rotom gets scarf pursuited, I am still on the better end since I can force it out and set up and hit ttar when it tries to come back for a scarf fire punch. Even starmie sometimes can get pursuited. Well this is the only big problem I see in your team. You could get something to set up after something gets pursuited or just play cautiously. Lum lead is as good as it gets but your team doesnt really have a reliable machamp counter (lead and sub + 3attacks). IF you use celebi, consider using psychic over earth power for it. If you do use celebi, it means you have 3 dark/ghost weakness though you have 2 resists. However, if you're draco metoer does not OHKO lead machamp, you may face a stone edge. And CB dugtrio handles heatran and starmie. Edit: I see DD kingdra putting holes into your team, especially sub DD varients.

    Actually if you didn't realise you have a FWG core now. Overall your team doesn't have a really huge issue with current threats. So it's a pretty good team, I give 7.5/10. The missing points are for some problems like lacking a phazer and multiple weakness to trap killing without a backing for it. But still job well done :)
  12. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Thanks for your advice. I have used this team alot on PO so I know its weaknesses. Instead of the Dragonite lead I use an anti-lead Machamp:

    Machamp @ Lum Berry
    Ability: No Guard
    Adamant Nature, 240 hp, 248 att, 16 spdef, 4 speed
    - DynamicPunch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch/ Stone Edge
    - Bullet Punch

    This Machamp can take on most leads bar Metagross (especially Banded ones with Zen Headbutt), banded Azelfs with Zen Headbutt and sometimes opposing Machamp when losing the speed tie.

    I am going to keep Explosion on Heatran I guess but I am not sure if I like roar. Explosion has saved me a few times and is the only way for Heatran to do something against Bliss. For Rotom I am just going to stick with Overheat and Trick. I haven't used Overheat a lot but mostly it is just to scare out things like Scizor. Trick was very useful against things like Blissey and Vaporeon.

    For Celebi I don't think I am going to use it to be honest. The only problem with Celebi is that it is Grass/Psychic so it means a few more weaknesses (a lot to be honest) than Shaymin has. For example Pursuit bait which Starmie and Rotom also are or can be.

    Sorry I am not going to use your suggestions, it is mainy because I have used this team a lot and I know its weak spots (yes DD kingdra screwed me but not very often like 2 out of 25 battles, cuz it is kinda uncommon) so that means I am not going to change a lot on this team. Rotom-H has been trapped a few times but it was very uncommon. I am certainly to keep this set cuz it has saved me soooo many times (yes it did). Scizor has sometimes been trapped by Magnezone but it was not a huge deal I guess, sometimes I was just lucky and I U-turned on the Magnezone switch.

    The only thing is DD kingdra and maybe swap Explosion for something else on Heatran: maybe Hp grass (swampert)/ ice (flygon, dragonite, gliscor) / electric (gyarados), dragon pulse (kingdra), Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Substitute or Roar. What do you guys think is best to replace Explosion with or should I just keep it?
  13. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    WHey there again. No I am not going to convince you to use what I suggested but instead explain what I had suggested. Now, since you're going to use machamp, there is no need for explosion. Explosion is something nice to fall back on but since you already have machamp for blissey and scizor with superpower and trick to cripple it, exploding is just overkill. I suggested celebi because of the wonderful typing synergy it has with heatran. Yes I know celebi has a tonne more weakness but it allows you to check machamp comfortably if you use psychic. Furthermore, it checks all variants of breloom (although scizor can u-turn to rotom to break its sub and follow with overheat). Machamp is indeed a good addition to your team, especially since it counters magnezon and scarf ttar, reducing the chance of those 2 trapping your pokes. Roar is basically just for phazing, if you feel there isn't a need for it it is still quite ok given that your team can handle set uppers quite well. Using hp ice is possible for heatran but since it's slower than your intended targets, you have to predict the switch ins for hp ice to work. And no, hp elec wont hit gyara, it can just waterfall you first, lols. WoW cripples heatran counters on the switch except another heatran and infernape. Try out the modifications first before you decide again :)
  14. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Okay I will try to replace Explosion on Heatran for something else, maybe Dragon Pulse for Kingdra cuz when it screwed me over it was locked into outrage so when I did go into tran the only thing I could do was explode. WoW is also a good option since Gyara, Dragonite and Kindgra love to come in on it, so when I predict right it can help me alot. Breloom and Machamps aren't really a problem I guess because of the fact that I haven't seen them often. I only saw Machamp as a lead and that was like 1 out of 5 battles. So when I give my Machamp a little more speed they won't be a problem cuz there isn't a speed tie anymore. I still don't know if I should use Celebi because it gives more weaknesses and the only reason I should use it over Shaymin in this case is because it can handle Machamp, which are kinda uncommon. Maybe you can convince me by giving me a good Celebi set.
  15. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    1 in 5 leads is VERY COMMON to me... Handicpping your self 20% of the time isn't good. Breloom isn't a prob anyway since you got u turn. Oh celebi can counter kingdra to some extent though it will take outrage... Here's the set from http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/celebi

    [​IMG]

    Celebi @leftovers
    Ability: Natural cure
    EVs: 252 hp/220 def/ 36 spe
    Nature: Bold
    Moves:
    -Grass Knot
    -Recover
    -Heal Bell
    -Psychic / Perish Song

    I deviated a bit from smogon's set with psychic/ perish song over hidden power. Heal bell saves you from some random status hax. Psychic is for machamp. Perish song means that kingdra can't lock into outrage or there's 50% chance of getting ko'ed by perish song. Perish song also works against cro cune. Grass knot 2HKO ttar but you might not get koed if you dont switch. You should try whatever changes you can make to your team before deciding. It takes time to get used to new changes too.
    edit: ps, don't quote! Just quote the account names will do and remove the text. Makes it better without a huge chunk of quoted things.
  16. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Okay I will try it over Shaymin, although I am going to change the moveset and ev spread to this I guess:

    [​IMG]

    Celebi @leftovers
    Ability: Natural cure
    EVs: 4 hp, 252 spatt /252 speed
    Nature: Timid
    Moves:
    - Grass Knot
    - Leech Seed
    - Earth Power
    - Psychic

    It is based on my Shaymin set. Grass Knot replaces Seed Flare and Psychic replaces Hp fire. Heal Bell isn't necessary because Celebi has Natural Cure.

    Oh and for Machamp when I faced it as a lead most of the times I killed it so the rest of the team didn't have any problems dealing with it. So thats why Machamps didn't cause my team problems.

    Okay and something else what should I do with Explosion on Heatran?
  17. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    Lols! How did you ko machamp? I'll be glad to see that. No I didn't give heal bell for celebi to heal itself. Its to ensure your teammates don't get some random status by accident like you don't want scizor to accidentally get burned by WoW or get parahax from tbolt. I gave it defensive EVs to support the team better along with heatran. That makes a somewhat defensive celetran core that you can fall back on. The bulky EVs ensure that celebi wont be the third victim of scarf ttar along with rotom and starmie. Gogo try out the sets for at least 10 matches for each change you made to your team. It makes it easier for you to see what your team needs :)
    edit: oh about heatran... I would use roar for phazing and stack SR damage since gyara likes to switch in on heatran ( you can roar it when it switch in so it would have 50% gone to SR next time) phazing is useful to pull you out of situations you don't want to get stuck in. Oh yea, if you want to use roar on heatran, you may want to alter the EVs to those of the RestTalk set or other defensive set here: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/heatran
    roar has negative priority so you might want to go defensive but if you want more damages, stick with the offensive EVs and keep explosion if you deem there is no need for phazing. But still most teams need a reliable phazer to back up.
  18. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    The first turn me and my opponent both use DynamicPunch and eat our Lum Berries (sometimes I got a crit so there I got a ko and sometimes my opponent didn't have a lum berry resulting into hurting himself into confusion), and second turn depends what I predict to happen. It might result in winning the speed tie and killing the opposing Machamp.

    For Heatran I will try out Roar > Explosion. For Celebi I am just going to stick with the moveset I posted above your post since I like max speed and max spatt to be as powerful and fast as possible just as Shaymin. I understand that Heal Bell is important but in the 30 battles I have used this team I didn't get any annoying status conditions (for example Scizor being burned), so I am using Earth Power > Heal Bell. I understand you want to convince me of it but I have noted a few times that I didn't like some of your sets, I am very sorry about that but as I told you I know this team very good and because it did so well I don't like to make major changes; for exaple changing teammembers. That's why I want Celebi to have the same ev spread as Shaymin and having Earth Power. Oh yea and for your Celebi ev spread Psychic isn't even a ohko. I know it is better than Shaymin to do something against Machamp but I told you before that Machamps weren't a problem mid and late game because I took them down already. By the way Seed Flare is much better than Celebi's grass knot which is with no spatt ev investment kinda underpowered if you compare it with Shaymin's Seed Flare.

    Thanks for your suggestions, I really like the Roar > Explosion on Heatran cuz if you predict right, especially with part flyings like Gyara and Dragonite, it can do some significant damage.
  19. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    Glad you liked roar :) sorry but i'm going to talk about machamp again(machamp is such a pest!). Sub +3 attacks is really awesome so long as there isn't toxic spikes. Sub +3 attacks means that something almost certainly WILL eat a dynamic punch or payback. The best counter to machamp actually is slowbro... But slowbro doesnt fit your team (although it has same typing as starmie). I havn't found a decent counter to sub machamp, the most I can do is use rotom to lure a payback and get heracross (for my case) to whack the sub if it has if not go for the KO with guts CC. Machamp is irritating but less so with toxic spikes. Not saying that you should get toxic spikes. If you didn't like celetran core, it's ok for your team if you really want to hit hard. If another problem props up, just post here, i'll see what I can suggest when I can. And oh, machamp against machamp, the faster one wins. Might want to put a little bit more of speed EVs for insurance. The good thing about machamp lead is that no one will try to trick scarf or trickband it. Just take note of your pp since 8 isn't a lot. One last thing, update your RMT. Lols
  20. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Thanks for your suggestions. If I notice that Machamps destroys my team I will post in this thread or even pm you. First I had Roserade in my team with Toxic Spikes, which you can see in the team building process, but I liked Shaymin more because it is much more bulkier than Roserade.
    And yes I am def going to give Machamp a little more speed cuz it is really annoying when losing my Machamp to a speed tie, since most teams aren't prepared for it (for instance my team, I just have to hope to get a crit or rely on another teammember to take it down). Yes I am going to update my RMT, thanks. Oh yea what mark do you give this team (last time you gave it 7,5/10)?
  21. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    Hi! Since you asked, I shall rerate your team. Well, I still don't see how you handle machamp but i'm guessing rotom can lure a payback for shaymin to switch in and seed flare and switch to something for the ko. That is provided machamp loses the speed tie which I doubt it will with the additional speed EVs you have given. Well rotom and starmie are still pursuit weak while scizor shouldn't fear magnezone if you don't lock into pursuit or bullet punch too early. For pursuit, I guess double switching solves the problem. All in all, those aren't really major problems though scarf ttar is very common. The FWG core ensure good typing synergy and u-turn can swing momentum to your favour. Most common threats are covered by your team and the most you can probably lose to is baton pass or some other randomly made teams. Other than trick, I don't know how you can break stall teams; yea I tried to use trick against blissey but the hippo either takes the trick or my tbolt against skarm. Since stall team isn't common and well built ones like KG stall are very rare, your team shouldn't have much problems. So I shall give 9/10. The 1 point is just that having 2 pursuit weak in the same team isn't a good idea since double switching is the best way agaisnt it for you. Can't think a way for pursuit problem unless you want to forgo either one which isn't a good idea either since both are important to keep common threats in check like rotom for lucario and gyara and starmie for infernape. A huge plus is none are SR weak and spinning allows you to keep switching freely. So how's using this team? Faced any major problems? I don't think there should be. Cya around!
  22. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    Thanks for your rate. The additional speed on my Machamp really works to take out opposing ones. I don't see many sub + 3 attack variants so the only ones I see are leads so when I dynamicpunch they take alot of damage and when they come in later in the battle they are weakend so almost anyone of my team can take it down. Scarf ttar and Magnezone are often problems and DDkindra with rest as well. I really don't know how to handle kindra after a DD, since my only priority with Scizor is resited.
    Also I tried Will-O-Wisp on Heatran to burn some random stuff, but if I burn Kingdra it is just going to rest + chesto the burn away.
    Yes there are some randomly made teams that sometimes cause problems, for example some uu pokes who you don't see that often in ou and have some sets you forgot about.
    Oh yea one question, what do you mean with KG stall?
  23. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    DD kingdra if you want to burn it, burn it on the SAME turn it uses rest. To counter it, use starmie or shaymin to lower its health enough though you have to sac one poke to do that and thereby force it to use outrage so heatran can come in to burn/phaze or scizor to finish off with superpower. KG stall is a super awesom made by Kevin Garrett: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78812
    I havn't found a way to completely break through it, i'm considering double trick in my team to cripple stall ie, I have 3 choice users in my team. Still working on that though. Kingdra most likely will KO one of your pokes at least but theres no other choice. CroCune might hurt your team badly too since tbolt wont do the trick, seed flare with spD drop should do it though.
  24. B-Zard

    B-Zard

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    119
    I think I can take on CroCune okay. I can trick it a choice scarf with my Rotom so it is hopefully locked into something like calm mind. Although they can come in later and get off a choice scarf rest to heal itself or getting off a sleep talk when it is already asleep. Shaymin can Leech Seed it and Seed Flare should do okay I guess.

    For Heatran I tried different moves in the fourth slot. I didn't use roar that often since Heatran carries weaknesses that are very common so most of the time I couldn't stay in for a long time. I also tried Hp Ice, this worked okay but I think Will-O-Wisp worked best since it can burn Gyara and Kindra and stuff when used at the right time. There are off course some random ResTalk Gyara's which can heal the burn. I think I am also going to try Dragon Pulse on Heatran to take on Kingdra better when it locks itself into Outrage.
  25. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz POTATO
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,452
    Roar is for general usage and is a staple for most teams. WoW isn't a bad idea but the 75 acc isn't always reliable. Dragon pulse sees no other purpose other than for kingdra or other dragon switch ins. So dragon pluse shouldn't be used since that is its only function. If you want to use it, might as well us an offensive set for heatran. Lols. Just keep to eiither WoW or roar, they're the best bet with more utility than dragon pulse. Whichever you use, up to you, see which is more important to your team.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)