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First RMT - Yet another Sunny team! =]

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Tsuzuriko, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Tsuzuriko


    Jan 27, 2013

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Hello. Before I start describing my team, I would like to get some stuff out of the way. I have never played competitive pokemon before, bar rare Wi-Fi battles. I only got into competitive pokemon recently, so I'm not exactly aware of all the important things on the metagame. I guess you could say I'm a noob, but I tried my best to consider everything I could when I was making this team. Also, I'm Brazilian, so I'm sorry if something I say sounds weird, or if I misspell anything...

    That out of the way, I would appreciate any kind of reply, I want to improve my team and skills as much as possible and I couldn't think of a better way of reaching this goal, than making a RMT after I found out about it.

    Well then, let's get to the Team description, shall we? =]


    When I started into competitive playing, one of the first things I realized was just how useful weather actually was, if compared to what I knew from playing the games. I was fascinated when I found out about Weather Wars and how they influence the metagame, which is the main reason I decided to start by playing OU, rather than other tiers.

    All the Weathers have advantages and disadvantages of it's own, so at first, there wasn't actually a good reason nor motive for me to choose a Sun team, besides the fact that I love Ninetales since the first gen. I also found myself rooting for the Sunny teams, whenever I saw one. So It's as simple as that, I decided to build a team starting from a pokemon I liked and then proceed with a main goal of building a team as consistent as possible, that would perform well under the sun and also wouldn't be completely dependable on it. I'm not sure whether or not I succeeded, but I don't feel like I completely failed on accomplishing that either. I guess the best way to find out is by describing the team.


    Ninetales @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Drought
    EV's: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid (+Spe / -Atk)
    - Flamethrower
    - Nasty Plot
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Solar Beam

    I decided to run a more offensive set on it. Sure, it doesn't have great Sp. Atk, but 81 isn't so bad either, and base 100 Speed can cover that flaw. When I first started using it, I had a defensive set, with Substitute instead of Nasty Plot. It didn't work out really well, I kept dying somewhat early if for some reason I wasn't able to get a Substitute. I experimented replacing Substitute for Disable, and it did work sometimes, but wasn't reliable. I tried SubDisable, by getting rid of Will-O-Wisp, but the situation didn't change so much. Then I tried using Jolteon with Substitute+Baton Pass and getting Will-O-Wisp back again to replace Substitute. Even though Jolteon was fast, Scarf users were still a problem, not to mention priority moves, especially physical ones. When I decided to use a more offensive set, things started to change. Not only I was able to deal considerable damage with Flamethrower and Solar Beam, but using Ninetales became somewhat easier, now that mispredictions didn't always punish me with death. Nasty Plot worked well with a Offensive set, so i kept it. I also tried Fire Blast over Flamethrower, but it seems "Lady Luck" hates me when it comes to accuracy, so I decided to stick with Flamethrower. I also have tried Toxic instead of Will-O-Wisp, but even with that better accuracy, I still missed a lot. Plus the chance of halving my opponent attack is way better than simply damaging it, not to mention Steel being immune to Toxic. Regarding Air Balloon, turns out that having it instead of Leftovers is great, since not only can I switch into a Ground type move, but I also don't get trapped by Dugtrio while the balloon is intact.


    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EV's: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid (+Spe / -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Sleep Powder
    - Growth
    - Hidden Power Ice

    Venusaur. A pokemon with incredible bulk, that also has what is maybe the only reason for many Sun teams around: Chlorophyll. Since Chlorophyll already doubles it's speed, you may be wondering why do I have a Timid Nature instead of Modest? Well, first because base 108 Pokemons with Scarf can outspeed Modest Venusaur, second because if for some reason I can't keep the sun up, I still have a chance of outspeeding some pokemons that could otherwise move first. Not to mention outspeeding other Modest Venusaur. As for the EV's and moves, I decided using the common Special Growth. having a way to recover while still dealing damage is great, plus the fact it get's Stab from Giga Drain. Sleep Powder is mostly for when I'm at disadvantage for some reason, so I can try to get a Growth or two. I had HP Fire over HP ice, but with so many Heatran around coupled with the fact that it's easy to predict, I decided to try changing it, which turned out to be a good thing. HP Ice isn't something you never see on a Venusaur, but you can still take advantage of it more often than HP Fire. Also, this way i can also outspeed opposing Timid Venusaur that have HP Fire.


    Victini @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Victory Star
    EV's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Jolly (+Spe / -SpA)
    - V-Create
    - Brick Break
    - Bolt Strike
    - U-Turn

    One thing I wanted to have on my team was something that could take advantage and hit hard under the sun, wasn't slow and if possible, not frail either. When looking at my options in OU, It seemed the only thing that would attend those requirements was Volcarona, so I tried it. It turned out not being so reliable. Without other choices, I tried Scarf Infernape, who could at least revenge kill and had great coverage. It worked, but the frailness was still bugging me. So I switched my attention to UU. I tried Scarf Chandelure. Chandelure performance was great, it dealt HUGE amounts of damage with it's 145 SpA, plus it could spinblock, but the frailness was still present. Then, I saw Victini. Not only it had great defensive stats, but it also had access to the strongest Fire move in the game, who can easily kill even the ones that resist it. Even with the nasty side effect, the power is worth it. Victini has also other good options for dealing damage on Bolt Strike and Brick Break. I run Brick Break because I don't have other Fighting attacks with this current team, otherwise I would use Zen Headbutt. The ability to simply scout and run away with U-Turn is another great advantage of using Victini. I also tried having Trick into Bolt Strike slot, but most times the last thing I want is to lose that Scarf, especially considering V-Create.


    Sableye @ Lagging Tail
    Trait: Prankster
    EV's: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
    Nature: Calm (+SpD / -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Trick
    - Recover

    Sableye is a member of the team because It has many uses, while occupying one slot only. With Deoxis-D around, a team unable to counter it can have serious problems, even with a spinner. For this reason I started with Espeon, a great counter that can also be a supporter too. But I didn't find it so helpful when experimenting with it. The main reason for choosing Espeon first before going to sableye, was the risk of Deo-D having Magic Coat, but after watching and batting Deo-D many times, I haven't seen Magic Coat being used so often (In fact, I can successfully Taunt it most of the time with Sableye). When I decided to get rid of Espeon, I had just seen Sableye in action, so I knew what i needed. After researching on Prankster and Taunt, I saw Tornadus (also Liepard and Whimsicott, but I didn't like them). Tornadus looked like a great option, it was faster than sableye and could also deal some considerable damage, but after using it, It felt like it doesn't have good synergy with the rest of the team, so I sticked with Sableye, since it could also trick, burn and spinblock, while having 3 key immunities, all at once. So far, It's working.


    Donphan @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EV's: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk / -SpA)
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock

    One thing I've noticed on competitive battles, is how a spinner can be a life saver more often than anything. Thus, I decided that if I wanted a consistent team, a spinner should most likely be included. First, I tried Starmie, it looked awesome at first glance, with that big, beautiful 115 base Spe, plus base 100 SpA. The coverage it had was also fantastic, but in the end, it would die more often than I would expect and with so many strong Scarf users around, I dropped it. Then i tried Forretress, who also looked awesome with all those hazards availabe, just waiting to be used. It also had Volt Switch, which i could use to my advantage. But in the end, it also turned out to disappoint me, since laying hazards wasn't so easy, plus Volt Switch wasn't so helpful as I thought it would be. It was then that I gave Donphan a chance. Fortunatelly, it didn't let me down. Not only it had good defense and attack stats in conjunction, but it also had good coverage and really handy priority in Ice Shard. It also gives me many opportunities to set up Stealth Rock. I tested Cloyster and Blastoise as spinners after it, but didn't like any, so I sticked with Donphan.


    Latios @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EV's: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid (+Spe / -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    - Hidden Power Fire

    Latios joined the team without any motives, but stayed for many. It's base 110 base Speed and a Timid nature alongside with a scarf pretty much lets it outspeed anything on the tier, which is a pretty big deal. If you combine that with base 130 Special Attack, good STAB, decent coverage options and ability to cripple pokemons by tricking it's Scarf if so desired, are really more than enough to give it a slot on the team, in my humble opinion. Not like I can't replace it, but it's really good and that turns out to have great sinergy with the rest of the team. HP Fire is there to hit Steel types, even though i don't like that -1 IV on Speed.


    I can't think of many, but here are the ones I can think of:

    [​IMG]- Heatran: I can get rid of it, but if it has Air Balloon, It will most likely be able to kill 1 member of my team, before I can do it.

    [​IMG]- Tentacruel: It can be somewhat hard to kill, specially if assisted by rain. Still manageable though, not such a big threat most of the times.

    [​IMG]- Toxicroak: Under the Rain, it can be extremelly hard to kill, but simply playing carefully makes it not so hard after all.

    [​IMG]- Espeon: Whenever I see one, I need to be very careful while using Sableye. A wrong prediction can end up on me wasting my Lagging Tail on a pokemon that won't bother having it, or, more importantly, I can end up hitting myself. Again, playing carefully is a solution.


    I kinda like the results I've been getting with this team, considering i never played competitively before. It performs pretty well against other weather teams, while being a treat to non-weather teams. I find that awesome since I'm not used to play competitively yet (far from it in fact ^^), but I really like this team as it is right now. I do believe there may be plenty of room for improvement though and I'm willing to test any suggestions given. Also, I would like to thank you if you've spent your time to read this.

    Cheers. ^^
  2. Mr. Green

    Mr. Green

    May 14, 2011
    Nice team!

    Now it's time for Ninetales and Venusaur. Ninetales have to resist as much as possible and that offensive set will not let him, because he's too fragile. My idea is to use a more defensive set, for example the Chesto Rest, I think that is the more resistant or at least one of the hard to take away. 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd with Rest - Flamethrower - Will-o-Wisp - Sunny Day, Timid nature, with Chesto Berry. In addition, the Chesto Rest set is good for status problem, because if you use Rest, the status is cleared.

    Venusaur, could be done better, because all those evs in speed are not necessary, you have to outspeed Scarf Latios, and the other EV in Def or in Atk. 180 Spd / 76 Atk / 252 SAtk, Growth - Earthquake - Giga Drain - Hidden Power Ice, with Naive nature and Life Orb. 252 SpA to do more damage as possible with Giga Drain and Hidden Power Ice hit dragons, and all the rest in Atk to deal more damage from Earthquake.
    I've cut Sleep Powder for two reasons: first, it is easy to fail and if that fails you risk losing Venusaur which is the main sweeper in the Sun, Earthquake was good because it helps against Heatran, Toxicroak and Tentacruel, also with Earthquake you get a good coverage.

    As a last thing Latios Choice Scarf is useless in this team because the team is already faster than its thanks to Venusaur to Victini, and Victini and Donphan with Ice Shard is quite like revenge-killer.
    I suggest you to use Latios with this moveset: EVs: 20 Atk / 236 SAtk / 252 Spd Naive Nature (+Spd, -Sdef) Earthquake - Recover – Draco Meteor – HP Fire with Life Orb.
    With this moveset do Okho to Heatran with the support of Stealth Rock and 2 Okho to Tyranitar and Jirachi, always with the support of Stealth Rock plus some residual damage.
    Scarf Latios made ​​you weak Cb Tyranitar while with this moveset because six affixed with the rocks is 2 Okho.

    Good luck!
  3. Alexander.

    won the 2nd Official Ladder Tournament

    Jan 24, 2012
    Hello, Tsuzuriko.

    First of all, welcome to Smogon!

    Looking at your team, I see that Lati Twins are a big problem, they can just spam a Dragon-type STAB against your team and one Pokèmon of your team will die. Latios can spam Draco Meteor without any problem and Substitute Calm Mind Latias can setup on Ninetales and Donphan and then she can smash your team quite easily. Therefore, I suggest you to use Specially Defensive Heatran replacing Victini, which seems quite redundant because Latios is already a very good revenge-killer for a lots of threats such as Dragonite, Salamence, Keldeo and so on and you don't need another one; otherwise Heatran is one of the best counter for Lati Twins and especially under sun it works pretty well, an EV spread 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe with a moveset of Lava Plume, Roar, Protect and Toxic, with Calm nature and with Leftovers should work fine on your team. Also, Heatran can wall without any problem Volcarona if it lacks Hidden Power Ground, which can be troublesome too for your current team.

    Another problem for your team, as you already said, is Heatran: you haven't solid switch into it and Heatran beats easily Ninetales, Venusaur, Sableye and Latios. Therefore, I suggest you to use Hidden Power Ground replacing Will-O-Wisp on Ninetales; normally I would have suggest to use Dugtrio replacing something on your team but in this chance I see that your team is quite original so I don't want to change much it. However, an Hidden Power Ground after a Nasty Plot does this damage on Specially Defensive Heatran: 252 +2 SpAtk Ninetales Hidden Power Ground vs 248 HP/252 SpDef Heatran (+SpDef) : 80% - 94,55% (2 hits to KO), so you have much chances to OHKO Heatran after a Stealth Rock damage, which is pretty good for your team since if Heatran dies, Venusaur, which is your main sweeper, can sweep opponent's team more easily.

    Other than that, I suggest you to change Venusaur's EV spread into 252 SAtk / 72 HP / 4 Def / 180 Spd; which still outspeeds Choice Scarf Latios/Latias when sun is up and allows Venusaur to have more staying power, which is always useful to live against Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch and Mamoswine's Ice Shard for example, which Venusaur has problems with.

    As last thing, I suggest you to use Psyshock replacing Thunderbolt on Latios because it's simple a better move on Latios since it allows to hit hard Amoonguss, Blissey and Tentacruel, which is a threat for your team, as you already said. Psyshock is good against Keldeo and Terrakion too, which can be quite troublesome for your team.

    Good luck.
  4. Tsuzuriko


    Jan 27, 2013
    First of all, thanks for the feedback guys, I REALLY appreciate it. As for the suggestions, I kinda understand why most of them were made.

    By now I've started testing those changes, beginning with both suggested Venusaur builds. I have to admit that even though i don't like dropping Sleep powder, Earthquake looks like it can be very helpful. It deals considerable damage and covers the lack of HP Fire when it comes to most steel types, while also hits opposing Fire types that try to take advantage of the sun and maybe KO Venusaur. I'm still testing it though. As for the bulk, It undoubtedly worth it, It's can take hits way better right now... I'm also testing a Modest Nature instead of Naive and 72 HP EV's and 4 Speed EV's replacing Earthquake back to Sleep Powder. I haven't made up my mind on which one to use yet.
    SIDE NOTE: I guess I was indeed wasting Venusaur EV's by investing on speed, but I only did that after a Terrakion outspeeded me under the sun without Rock Polish, priority, nor any kind of speed boost. I don't know the reason and I've tried to make sure I wasn't mistaken or simply hadn't noticed something, but my opponent just left after I complained. Maybe he cheated, maybe it was a bug, but with you guys saying I can outspeed even Scarf Latios under the sun without investing into Speed, I feel somewhat more confident.

    As for Ninetales suggestions... I'll start with the Defensive ChestoRest. It sounded like a great idea to me, but turns out it didn't work so well. Sure, Ninetales isn't a great attacking pokemon, but it's still frail even with a defensive build, with or without recovery. Also pretty much every team (weather based or not), have ways to kill it. Dealing a bit more damage and with either Nasty Plot or simply with hit and run has been working better to me, not to mention I'm hit by physical moves more often than Special ones. If I switch EV's and nature to increase Defense, Rain teams would become a even bigger threat, so that's out of question. As for having HP Ground replacing Will-O-Wisp, it sounds like a great Idea, considering Sableye is my main choice to burn anyways. I'm still testing it, so far I still don't have anything I think it's worth to mention. I've also heard lots of people saying Air Baloon Ninetales is awful, but honestly, Air Baloon helped more often than I can think of. I've lost the count of how many times I could become trapped by Dugtrio, or how many switch-in's I've gained with it. Sure, after it pops out it's gone for the rest of the battle, but it helps me more often than Leftovers. I wouldn't (and I didn't) use it on Defensive Ninetales though, but since Defensive Ninetales isn't working for me, I guess I'll stick with Air Balloon, at least for now. =]

    As for replacing Victini for Heatran, I honestly can understand how the lack of a steel type is a flaw for the team, plus Heatran seems to have good synergy, but I mostly picked Victini to cover the lack of a physical Fighting move (Focus Blast is out of question, since it misses so often and is special based). V-Create was just a bonus, while Bolt Strike is indeed redundant if I have Thunderbolt on Latios. I'll give it a go on Heatran though when I have time to test it, but i really dislike losing Brick Break and I can't think of an alternative to replace it. Also, I'm not a big fan of Roar nor it's variants even though I'm aware they can be really useful, especially to get rid of pokemons with boosts. I'll definitely try Heatran with Roar though, but I might also try HP Ice as an alternative to hit Lati@s and other threats, even though I've got Venusaur and Donphan for that.

    For Latios suggestions, I would like to start with Psyshock. Psyshock is indeed a great option for Latios, It would hit Fighting threats, plus Gengar, Toxicroak and Tentacruel for great damage, but while using it I had very few opportunities to take full advantage of it. Also, Blissey surprisingly doesn't seems to be a problem most of the time (maybe because of Sableye I guess) and being locked on Psyshock tends to be bad, especially after a misprediction. That was the main reason for me switching to Thunderbolt. The other reason for me to have it is because I get plenty of opportunities to hit opposing water pokemons on weather wars, especially Politoed. Without Victini (and consequently Bolt Strike), I feel like losing Thunderbolt isn't a good idea. I will keep trying to work around Psyshock though, It may be worth if I try to play more safely with Latios. As for Life Orb, I've tested Life Orb Latios with Recover before I started to use Scarf (Also tried Specs) and honestly, it didn't work for me. Sure, the freedom and damage boost you get is great, but the damage recoil is also something you don't want, since most teams have ways of outspeeding and most likely KO Latios before it can use Recover effectively. As for having Earthquake, I think it'll be pointless now that I have HP Ground and 2 Earthquake users, I don't think having 4 Ground moves is gonna be something good, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Again, thanks for the feedback guys, it really helped me more than I could expect. =]


    EDIT: I'll change the first post after I'm done with testing these changes.

    EDIT 2: Decided to drop Earthquake on Venusaur.
  5. Tsuzuriko


    Jan 27, 2013
    So, here are the conclusions of the tests so far:

    - Now that I don't have an electric move, my whole team is weak to Gyarados... Not that Gyarados is so common, but now it's a big problem when it shows up.

    - I'm also having a hard time more often against Rain teams, now that I lack electric coverage, which is becoming a problem.

    - Heatran isn't being so useful as I was expecting, it has become sort of situational and it's hard to safely switch to him most of the times.

    - Also, The lack of a Fighting type move is really a problem, I've seen many oportunities that I could take advantage if I had a Fighting move. Again, Focus Blast is out of question because of low accuracy and since it's special based.

    The rest of the changes are working really well... but I was thinking about switching Heatran for Lucario, which could be a nice revenge killer with good typing, but I don't know what to think of it... I'm kinda at a loss right now. =/

    Any suggestions for those problems?

    Thanks in advance. =]

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