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|Flame Saber|[UBER]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Aerrow, May 13, 2010.

  1. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,557
    [​IMG]

    Although, I have gone through many Uber teams in my Uber career, I have never posted a rate my team thread/ topic about one so I decided to post on of my recent team which has had decent success reaching a CRE ranging from approximately 1350-1400, barely missing the top 50 on the leader board. I knew this team revolving around a Roosting Physical Ho-Oh could be improved, so I decided to post this team and seek advice from the Smogon Community. I hope you guys enjoy reading about this kind of successful team and I hope I don’t bore you too much.

    [​IMG]

    Changes in the Team Since When it was Posted

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    Team At a Glance

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    Lead Replaced By

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Honour [NN]
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Impish Nature | Drought Ability
    252 Hp/ 156 Atk/ 32 Def/ 60 SpDef/ 8 Spe
    Perfect IV’s
    [​IMG] Earthquake
    [​IMG] Stone Edge
    [​IMG] Stealth Rock
    [​IMG] Thunder Wave

    Reasons

    Basically, It has been moved from being one of the team's tanks to the lead position because and empty slot was needed to add a Pokemon which could successfully counter CM Rest Talk Kyogre which was a threat.

    Old Lead
    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Redemption
    [NN]
    Deoxys-A
    @ Focus Sash
    Naïve Nature | Pressure Ability
    252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 Hp
    Perfect IV’s
    [​IMG] Stealth Rock
    [​IMG] Extreme Speed
    [​IMG] Mirror Coat
    [​IMG] Superpower

    Opinion and Thoughts

    Once you think about a common Uber lead, what comes to your mind? Without even thinking about it, as if you had it memorized, you would probably say a lead Deoxys-s; one of the most common, yet one of the most reliably and effective leads in the metagame; so in my team, I thought why not take advantage of this and use its weaknesses against it so it could be minimally effective while I still get to successfully complete my intentions with my [Anti- Deoxys-S] lead. So after thinking for a while, I concluded what other Pokémon to use other than Deoxys himself, just in an altered form?

    Technical Information
    [EV’s, Moves, Nature]
    Deoxys-A is not only able to stop speedy leads including Deoxys-S and choice scarf Darkrai with the swift use of a couple of ExtremeSpeeds, but Deoxys-A also fares quite well against other common leads including Groudon and Tyranitar which will fall to a base 120 power Superpower paired up with an ExtremeSpeed if it is needed [Tyranitar will be OHKO’d by Superpower so ExtremeSpeed will only be needed for Groudon leads]. And of course, the last attacking move, Mirror Coat provides excellent coverage of Kyogre leads who will probably use a water Spout to get Deoxys out of the way and while Deoxys-A will survive due to its focus sash, Mirror Coat will OHKO Kyogre. And after Deoxys-A has done its primary job, it can also set up stealth rock before going down to an opponent’s revenge killer.



    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Valiance
    [NN]
    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Careful Nature | Sturdy Ability
    252 Hp/ 44 Atk/ 212 SpDef
    Perfect IV’s
    [​IMG] Rapid Spin
    [​IMG] Toxic Spikes
    [​IMG] Spikes
    [​IMG] Payback

    Opinion and Thoughts

    If you are an experienced Uber battler, you may already know that for Ho-Oh to sweep to it’s fullest potential, it needs all the help it can get to successfully sweep with the least amount of trouble caused and it is for this very reason that I have provided it with not only a rapid spinner [Ho-Oh has to pay a toll of 50% of its HP every time it switches into stealth rocks], but also I had thought of maximizing its potential but providing it with both spikes and toxic spikes support as this will help it wear down the opponent much faster. And what other Pokémon to use than Forretress which can successfully set up both these entry hazards [most of the time], while also striving to be an excellent rapid spinner as well?

    Technical Information
    [EV’s, Moves, Nature]
    For the actual set, I have chosen to run the standard specially defensive Forretress set as it allows it to more efficiently compete in the Uber metagame which is primarily based around special attacks. This set not only takes STAB dragon type attacks from the likes of Palkia like a beast, it also is able to deal with OU Pokémon used in the Uber tier including Salamence spamming Draco Meteors and ever so common Gengar which is ‘thought’ to be one of Forrtress’ counters. This set also allows this Pokémon to set up its entry hazards with much more ease as it can now take many of the common attacks in the Uber Tier including Draco Meteor among others. But of course, the greatest weakness of any Pokémon which sets up entry hazards is a rapid spinner and this is exactly the reason I have this Pokémon …



    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Defiance
    [NN]
    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Lonely Nature | Levitate Ability
    248 Atk/ 64 SpAtk/ 196 Spe
    IV’s:
    [​IMG] Hidden Power [Fire]
    [​IMG] Dragon Claw
    [​IMG] Shadow Sneak
    [​IMG] Draco Meteor

    Opinion and Thoughts

    In my opinion, Giratina-O serves not only as one of the best spin blockers in the Uber metagame, but also this Pokémon can take on the roles of an excellent special sweeper, only without the need of setting up and boosting moves like calm mind and such. Giratina-O, nicknamed ‘the Great Wall’ definably lives up to its name as its massive base HP stat coupled up with its great defensive stats make it not only a defensive Pokémon but also an excellent sweeper as it also has a decent special attack and access to a STAB priority move and also, a great set of other moves which allow it not only to overcome its common counters like choice band Scizor but also allow it to sweep by firing off STAB powered dragon claws or Draco Meteors for added power.

    Technical Information
    [EV’s, Moves, Nature]
    As you can see, I’m running the standard mixed attacking Giratina-O set which is pretty basic, yet very effective. Not a lot to say here about the EV’s, moves and such here, so I guess I’ll quickly write about the strategy. After [If] Forretress has started to set up [Hopefully Finished], the opponent will most probably switch into a rapid spinner which will most likely be their own Forretress and as they attempt to rapid spin, I switch into this beast without taking any damage as Giratina is immune to normal type moves [for anyone who doesn’t already know]. Then I proceed with path [A] [which is using Hidden Power [Fire] to finish off Forretress if the decide to stay in] or [go strait for a Dragon Claw or Draco Meteor if I predict a switch to a Pokémon that resists the fire attributed move]. That’s basically the strategy associated with using Giratina-O on this team.



    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Elegance [NN]
    Latias @ Soul Dew
    Timid Nature | Levitate Ability
    112 HP/204 SpA/192 Spe
    Perfect IV's
    [​IMG] Calm Mind
    [​IMG] Dragon Pulse
    [​IMG] Thunder
    [​IMG] Recover

    Reasons

    Team was needing an exceptional counter to CM RestTalk Kyogre as it could cause many problems for the team and basically stop Ho-Oh's sweep as it brought in the rain among other things. CM/ Recover Latias does a great job countering this Kyogre as it can set up CM after CM beside the Ogre and when the time is right , it can KO Kyogre with a swift Thunder.


    Old Pokemon

    Show Hide
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Honour
    [NN]
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Adamant Nature | Drought Ability
    252 Hp/ 256 Atk/ 32 Def/ 60 SpDef/ 8 Spe
    Perfect IV’s
    [​IMG] Earthquake
    [​IMG] Stone Edge
    [​IMG] Stealth Rock
    [​IMG] Thunder Wave

    Opinion and Thoughts

    Probably the one thing that can really stop Ho-Oh from continuing to sweep is its average base speed stat. due to it being quite low, Pokémon including Palkia and Rayquaza can totally stop its sweep so to help stop this problem for Ho-Oh, I’ve given it thunder wave support so threats which out speed it would be a thing of the past. Not only that, Groudon can also start a sweep of its own by the amazing coverage given by Earthquake and Stone Edge powered up with STAB [Earthquake] and its base 150 attack stat, Groudon has started its own sweep in many of the battles I had used this team in.

    Technical Information
    [EV’s, Moves, Nature]
    There’s not much to say here since I’m running standard EV’s and moves but the one thing that you may think isn’t right is that I have stealth rock on Groudon. You’re probably thinking: “Why would you have stealth rock on Groudon when Deoxys-A already has it?!”, and my response would be that when I use Deoxys-A as a lead, I focus on using it as an anti- lead, not a set up lead so often, he goes down without being able to set up the much needed rocks and this is why I have given Groudon stealth rock just in case Deoxys-A is unable to get them on the opponent’s side of the field when the battle begins.


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Eternity [NN]
    Dialga @ Choice Scarf
    Timid Nature | Pressure Ability
    4 Atk/ 252 SpAtk/ 252 Spe
    Perfect IV's
    [​IMG] Draco Meteor
    [​IMG] Thunder
    [​IMG] Fire Blast
    [​IMG] Dragon Pulse

    Reasons

    Dialga also aspires to be a great revenge killer just like my former revenge killer, Palkia, but it seems as Dialga is more suitable for this team as it doesn't add another Dragon Type Weakness which Palkia did. So in short, Dialaga achieves the same role as Palkia but is just better for the rest of this team in terms of synergy 9Without Dialga, I would be sending out Forretress every time I see a Dragon Type attack coming).

    Old Member

    Show Hide
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Valour
    [NN]
    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Timid Nature | Pressure Ability
    252 SpAtk/ 252 Spe/ 4 Atk
    Perfect IV’s
    [​IMG] Spacial Rend
    [​IMG] Surf
    [​IMG] Thunder
    [​IMG] Outrage

    Opinion and Thoughts

    Well, as you have probably guessed, I was lacking a decent revenge killer which could come in on many of the metagame’s sweepers and deal a swift OHKO or 2HKO [obviously, after another one of my team members has fainted or maybe when I predict a resisted attack]. So I started looking for a reliable revenge killer … my search soon ended when I looked up Palkia’s choice scarf set in the strategy Pokedex; I had found the fifth member of this team without too much hassle.

    Technical Information
    [EV’s, Moves, Nature]
    Thought this excellent revenge killer is quite powerful at its job, it does have a couple of weaknesses namely Roost Ho-Oh, Dialga, Blissey and most Steel types so this is when the team truly starts to show how interdependent they are; Groudon can come on any of these Pokémon and scare them away and in the process also setting up stealth rocks or a thunder wave so even though I’m using ordinary sets for these two Pokémon, they still make an extraordinary combo which finish setting the battle field for Ho-Oh to come in and sweep the remains of the opponent’s team …



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Chivalry [NN]
    Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
    Adamant Nature | Pressure Ability
    252 Atk/ 224 Hp/ 32 Spe
    Perfect IV’s
    [​IMG] Sacred Fire
    [​IMG] Brave Bird
    [​IMG] Earthquake
    [​IMG] Roost

    Opinion and Thoughts

    Say hello to the star of the show. Ho-Oh with its massive attack stat coupled with its wide move pool of attacks and access to a useful recovery move makes it an excellent late game sweeper even without the need of a set up move [Calm Mind, Swords Dance, etc]. With its STAB powered signature move, Sacred Fire, Ho-Oh can prove to be a great threat and with its counters removed and with every entry hazard it needs [Courtesy of the rest of the team] there’s pretty much nothing that can stop its rampage from completely destroying the opponent’s team.

    Technical Information
    [EV’s, Moves, Nature]
    As you can see, I’m using a standard physical attacker Ho-Oh set which aspires to be one of the best late game sweeper sets in the Tier. The given speed EV’s allow Ho-Oh to out speed most defensive Kyogre without the thunder wave support Groudon provides and also it can out speed Jolly Tyranitar. Max attack allows Ho-Oh to attack with the most ferocity possible and the rest of the EV’s are put into HP for bulk and survivability. The move pool consisting of two STAB attacks and the last for almost perfect coverage, there isn’t much that can stop Ho-Oh after Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock and possible paralysis. If everything were to go according to the strategy, the opponent would probably facing defeat much faster then he had been expecting victory.

    [​IMG]

    Team At a Final Glance

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    Well, that was my newest Uber team and I hope you enjoyed reading about it! I’m still actively battling with this team and would like to reach the leader board so any [thought out and logical] advice is completely welcome, so please post giving suggestions on how to improve this team!

    [​IMG]
  2. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    4,226
    Nice typical Ho-ohfense team. I can see a CM RestTalk Kyogre being a nuisance to this team. Although it's not going to readily sweep your team, it can repeatedly come in and get rid of the Sun, severely hampering your progress. Palkia is not going to be able to stop it easily either, since it can Calm Mind up and Thunder is not going to 2HKO. I suggest replacing Deoxys-A with Latias and moving Forretress or Groudon to lead position.

    Latias @ Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 112 HP/204 SpA/192 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    -Calm Mind
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Thunder
    -Recover

    Can CM up along with CM-Ogre and kill it. Thunder is better even with the Sun on your team since Grass Knot makes Latias complete Steel bait, and Kyogre is common enough for you to run Thunder anyway.
  3. gritane

    gritane

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    35
    nice team but I do not understand Stealth rock on Deoxys and Groudon

    groudon's Ev 252 Hp/ 256 Atk/ 32 Def/ 60 SpDef/ 8 Spe you mean 156 in atk?
  4. Hugendugen

    Hugendugen Noam Chompsky.
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    PS & Ubers Leader

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
    Messages:
    764
    I agree with shrang in terms of the change. Deo-a doesn't stop Deo-s if your opponent uses Extremespeed too. I know you can bring in Gira-o, but they can just switch out their Deo-s and bring in something else to handle Gira-o or maybe even set up hazards of their own. If you plan to use Stealth Rocks on Deo-a, you can always make Groudon a Paradancer by giving it Sword Dance, or you could keep Stealth Rocks on Groudon and give Deo-a a fire move to deal with Forre and Scizor leads. That is of course, if you don't decide to put Groudon or Forre in the lead position.

    This is quite a standard team so if you're having trouble, I'm guessing it's because many people have designed their teams to be able to deal with it.
  5. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,557
    Thanks for the Rates Guys!

    So, after considering and testing these changes in quite a few battles, I have decided to remove Deoxys-A from the lead position it is currently in and replace it with the ParaGroudon on my team so I can add another pokemon which can help me deal wikth my CM RestTalk Kyogre weakness - CM/ Recover Latias [Suggested by Shrang].

    Here's The Set for Latias -

    [​IMG]
    Elegance [NN]
    Latias @ Soul Dew
    Timid Nature | Levitate Ability
    112 HP/204 SpA/192 Spe
    Perfect IV's
    [​IMG] Calm Mind
    [​IMG] Dragon Pulse
    [​IMG] Thunder
    [​IMG] Recover

    BTW, Gritane, that was a typo, I meant 156 Atk EV's; I'll have it fixed.

    Thanks for the Rates! Keep them Coming!
  6. ultimifier

    ultimifier

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,095
    seems like a pretty solid team. as i have never used ho-oh I'm not too familiar with the formula for making a good ho-oh team but i can see a couple of things i might change.

    Replace SURF with FIRE BLAST on palkia. Since you have no kyogre I dont see why you would want surf on palkia. You should try and keep sun out as often as possible and sitting around throwing around choice scarved surfs on a sun team seems like a bad idea!

    Tiny change here but I would suggest running more speed on Ho-oh. Most people hover those base 90s around 32 EVs so i would suggest adding more to outspeed support groudons/kyogres/dialgas. Running 40 or ever 44, 48 should help you get the jump on many people using support base 90 pkmns.

    Finally I would also suggest changing the EV spread on groudon. I cant remember the exact spread ( but i think its simpish with 252 HP and 160 SpD or something weird like that) that allows groudon to survive random hits like a deoxys-f or mewtwo grass knot. Since you are running a sun team, losing groudon to a surprise attack turn one is pretty much an auto loss.

    Hope these help, and good luck on the leaderboard
  7. Bluewind

    Bluewind My appearance, ability, and awesomeness strike fea
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,335
    Hi there

    Well this team is the epitome of standart Ho-Oh teams by now I suppose, so I'll only limit myself to suggesting Dialga over Palkia because of your screaming Dragon weakness that can and will bite you back if you rely on Forretress to take on all of them, especially SubPalkia and such; while one of Palkia's main perks is already going to waste because you have Kyogre very well covered by Latias. Of course this gives you no extra resistance and makes you weaker to DD Rayquaza, but at least gives you something that won't die because of a dragon sneeze.

    Good Luck =)
  8. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,557
    Thanks Again for the Rates Ultimifier and Bluewind

    So after about an hour of testing and comparing these changes on the team, I've decided to make these adjustments to the team: Changing Ho-Oh's EV spread to 252 Atk/ 212 Hp/ 44 Spe Which allows me to out speed many of the base 90 support Pokemon (As suggested by Ultimifier). Also, I am also changing my revenge killer from Palkia to Choice Scarf Dialga as this helps relieve my huge Dragon Type weakness (Suggested by Bluewind).

    Here's The Set

    [​IMG]
    Eternity [NN]
    Dialga @ Choice Scarf
    Timid Nature | Pressure Ability
    4 Atk/ 252 SpAtk/ 252 Spe
    Perfect IV's
    [​IMG] Draco Meteor
    [​IMG] Thunder
    [​IMG] Fire Blast
    [​IMG] Dragon Pulse

    Thanks for the Awesome Rates Guys!
  9. ultimifier

    ultimifier

    Joined:
    May 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,095
    im a little hesitant on dialga over palkia as now a DD rayquaza pretty much destroys your entire team. the only way for you to realistically beat it is by forcing it to outrage, sacrificing forry to weaken it with LO damage, then hitting it with giratina down to LO range and hoping it kills itself...

    rayray can come in and set up on forry, 1/2 dialga, and any other pokemon encored by wobb. This is one of the reasons i suggested using an impish groudon in my first post. Impish groudon will be able to stand up to DD ray and can survive a +1 DD outrage after SR+spikes (i think).

    So try out dialga but now you are MUCH weaker against DD poekmon such as rayray and sala!
  10. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Messages:
    1,557

    Thanks for the Rate!


    So, I've been testing the same EV's and all of the Groudon I currently have in my lead position but with an Impish Nature. This has dramatically helped me stop Salamences and Rayquazas countless times in the long run since it can survive pretty much anything they throw at him and he counter back with one of his moves [Basically Stone Edge]. Thanks for the rate; it really helped improve the team!

    BTW, Dialga has been proving to be better than Palkia on this team as a revenge killer so, I think I'll be keeping him for the time being.

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