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Policy Review Flavor Steps

Discussion in 'CAP Policy Review' started by DougJustDoug, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    I'm in favour of Birkal's proposal, with the first three exceptions jas explained, regarding pronunciation, auto-accepted edge-case grammar, and height/weight left with the TL. I have no problem leaving it in the mods' hands to prepare the slate with all legal entries for us.

    Nothing much to add from me, but for what it's worth, these are my thoughts.
  2. capefeather

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    I don't know if we have to make the name requirements into hard and fast rules. I think that there are submissions that are simplistic enough that people don't need to be told how to pronounce them or how the name originated. Then again, I always thought that Kitsunoh was easy to pronounce and it's one of the given examples of a hard-to-pronounce name... but something like Glorifly should be readily apparent in both pronunciation and etymology. I suppose we could require instead that, if somebody has to ask, THEN the submission has to come with phonetics and/or etymology. After all, it is the convoluted submissions that people tend to want to avoid.
  3. paintseagull

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    I agree with Birkal's proposal and all the rules therein.

    I agree that we should require pronunciation guidelines, because even though we don't get them in the game, the game developers must have them behind the scenes, so why shouldn't we? I'm sure many name submitters throw words together without putting thought into how it sounds, and this would force them to consider that.

    I don't think we need to include height/weight in either names or dex entries. If it had to go into any flavour step, it should be art. I am fine with the TL continuing to decide these.
  4. inanimate blob

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    Birkal's proposal is justified, it makes all sorts of sense to help with cutting down on people lashing out (poor bmb).

    I don't agree on the idea of having specific pronunciations for Pokémon on CAP. Part of the joy of Pokémon is its uniqueness, which I think is important even to those just messing around on CAP, whether they know it or not. Different pronunciations are similar to different dialects, which I believe is another level of individuality.

    The art step definitely needs to be the one deciding upon the weight/height. Without it, spriters may have to deal with a Pokémon an artist intended to be as big as Wailord becoming Joltik sized, or vice versa.
  5. I'll throw my support behind Birkal's proposal as well. Until now, I've been silently leaning toward allowing all legal entries, but not posting to support that because I was as concerned as the rest of you about slate size. I think that Birkal has put together some reasonable requirements that will help with this problems, and more importantly, I don't think that much more can be done without sacrificing some of the "fairness" of the flavour steps. Eventually, we may just have to deal with having an enormous slate, and that is preferable to reducing the field in ways that might look arbitrary.

    I do agree, though, with the posters that say height/weight should remain the TL's decision. I came in here ready to support pronunciation requirements, because every CAP gets some name submissions that look hopelessly awkward to pronounce, but inanimate blob's post has changed my mind. Those particularly awkward names never win anyway.

    Birkal's proposal, minus pronunciation and height/weight.
  6. Birkal

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    I can give on height and weight, fair enough. I never had a strong feeling about them either way, so I'm fine with letting that be at the TL's discretion.

    However, I do want to argue for pronunciation. Remember, if we are going to slate every legal submission, Name Polls are going to be a nightmare. Literally the worst. We need to insert something to cut down the pool a bit, or otherwise we're going to drive our voters mad with 60+ options.

    With that being said, I feel like pronunciation is the best way to go about adding some sort of positive guideline to weed out some submissions. Think of it this way: if a created name proves challenging for a submitter to say aloud, why in the world should it be slated? I don't care how the name is pronounced, to be honest. What I do care about is that the one who submits it should know how to pronounce it. Because if they can't, who can? As someone who has studied scientific names for insects, I can tell you firsthand that CAP4's name submissions were horrendous. People were not only mangling the species names, but mashing them together in nonsensical and unpronounceable ways. I believe that the submitter should be able to say the name they are submitting. Whether it be through IPA or vocaroo.com, I don't care. I don't even care if the pronunciation is in the final product. Ultimately, the only thing I'm attentive to here is making the Name Poll smaller, and this seems like the best way to go about it.

    Once we've resolved this issue of whether we're going to include pronunciation or not, I feel that this thread has served its purpose.
  7. Texas Cloverleaf

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    Yveltal and Xerneas would like a word with you Birkal

    I personally don't think that pronunciation is a big issue simply because many people have different variations on how they pronounce Pokemon names even if they're relatively easy to pronounce (classic example being Suicune). No the names can't be mangled mashups, but similarly they shouldn't have to be dumbed down obvious to pronounce if the submitter like the aesthetic of an alternative better.

    Show Hide
    Also forcing simplicity leads to things like Glorifiy which was a really horrible name >_> (soz doug)
  8. nyttyn

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    While a pronunciation guide would be handy, I don't think, for privacy reasons, we can force people to actually pronounce it over a voice recording software/site. For both the sake of optics, and both for it being a really bad idea, I think we should at most request a guide to pronunciation - an actual audio clip of someone saying it shouldn't ever be required. I'll be honest Birkal - I feel that's a horrible idea, and we're going to get some serious black eyes if we decide to go down the "nuts to privacy, you do this shit or you don't get slated" route.
  9. Birkal

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    I'm suggesting either voice recording software or IPA. It would not be required to do both. Just one.

    Then explain why Nintendo released the pronunciation of their names almost immediately after their names were announced?

    I don't think either of you two are getting my point. My goal with pronunciation is to lower the amount of submissions for Name Polls. It doesn't irk me that my pronunciation of Revenankh is likely different than every single human being in the universe. What would bother me is if Deck Knight (the creator of the name) didn't know how to pronounce it. I do not think a name can seriously be submitted if its creator cannot pronounce it themselves. That is why I consider it a good criteria to tack on to Name Submissions for the ultimate goal of: minimizing the slate.
  10. nyttyn

    nyttyn ¿Que?
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    My apologies, I momentarily forgot what IPA meant and thought it was some sort of newfangled recording software the kids are using nowadays. That would be fine, then. /support
  11. jas61292

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    While I understand that is the goal, I think that if we went with the other rules for name submissions that Doug suggested earlier in this thread that we will already achieve this goal. Pronunciations are a much more controversial requirement to include and in my mind will likely be unnecessary to achive the desired result with other rules in place. Personally, I would suggest not including it and going with the other rules. If the number of submissions still proves to be a problem, then we can always revisit this issue after CAP5. However, unless it is proven that it is really necessary, I would much rather prefer to stay away from requiring something like this.
  12. nyttyn

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    I don't see any reason not to include pronunciations in the first place. I mean if you don't even know how a name's said why are you submitting it? That's like me submitting a custom-made gun to a guns show without even knowing how to say its name. Or a custom-made car to a car show. It's just one of those things that will not only cut down on submissions but also has no real reason not to be a requirement.
  13. CiteAndPrune

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    I agree with jas that the rules given by Doug are better for reducing the total number of entries. I don't think they need to be simplified - if we give off the impression that 'wow these CAP folk have dozens of rules even for coming up with names' we'll look the all the nerdier for it, but also come off as treating our steps seriously - even if ultimately flavor isn't as important as competitive concerns, what IS important is streamlining that step, as well as avoiding getting our CAPs landed with downright horrible or illegal names (as the total word limit indicates).

    On the other hand, I also agree with Birkal about including pronunciation in some form, and either IPA notation or vocaroo seem fine. Given the choice they present, most if not all members would be able to manage this. Heck there could even be a third option - that I'd like to call 'in layman's terms' (for lack of a better term):
    Show Hide
    Voodoom
    'Voo' as in 'voodoo' and 'doom' as in 'doom'

    Unnecessary I know, but I wanted to pick an easy name for the sake of showing how easily one can explain pronunciation by pointing to existing words, one syllable at a time.


    If pronunciation is still controversial, we could add it as an optional rule. As in, it's not absolutely required, but nice to have (or, it's ONLY required if the name 'as written' confuses readers). This rule could be added to the other rules already given and make the list that much longer (especially if we go with 'only required if... optional otherwise' to make it appear complex and reward those who read it carefully enough).
  14. paintseagull

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    I seriously don't get the pushback on pronunciation. It doesn't even need to be included on-site or even in the poll. But it forces people to think a little bit more carefully about their submission. Any good name submitter will have thought this through and it is absolutely no extra creative effort for them to include it. I think having a standard guide like IPA is required because you need to include where to put the emphasis. All this does is help prevent unpronounceable entries and weed out lazy submitters automatically. Why should this be optional? Remember that we do have rules for our art submissions that don't always line up with real pokemon artwork.

    Personally, I am very glad for that pronunciation guide that was given for Yveltal and Xerneas, because now I can talk about then without hesitating on how to say them and it helps me remember the names and how to spell them in the first place. I can think of a few pokemon I have never heard pronounced or seen pronunciation guides for that are very difficult to remember how to spell. Cofragrigus? Alomomola? Okay I happened to get them right this time but seriously.

    We are not infringing on anyone's rights to pronounce things how they want (nobody's stopping you...) but name submitters should have a pronunciation in mind.
  15. srk1214

    srk1214 You are people yes ou no?
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    I totally support the inclusion of pronunciation either IPA or recorded.
  16. DougJustDoug

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    I like the idea of requiring pronunciation with each entry. It adds a little more formality to the final submission and it will help people understand the names submitted.

    Requiring IPA could be a bit too much, if people don't have access to a microphone for a Vocaroo recording. IPA is complicated. Yes, it will definitely require people to put some extra work for making submissions, even if they use a transcription service. But most readers and voters won't be able to make easy use of it.

    Do these make sense to most of you?

    sɪkəlænt
    rɛvɛnɑŋk
    pajrok​

    Even if you can make out which pokemon they are, do you intuitively understand the pronunciation of each by looking at that? My bet is that most people will actually get the WRONG idea of the pronunciation, because they aren't familiar with IPA.

    Can all of you even see those names above? Because you require certain fonts in your browser for many of those characters to even appear. If anyone is seeing question marks or blocks, then your browser doesn't support the unicode characters of the IPA alphabet.

    Maybe we should just tell people to include a pronunciation for their name and let them do that however they want. Or maybe ask for a common sense pronunciation and also require them to do an IPA transcription, using a helper site like this one. Here would be an example submission using our very first CAP pokemon (credit to Lawman for the name, BTW):

    That is not too terribly complicated, it makes submitters go do a little legwork, and it gives most average readers an easy way to interpret the submission.

    (BTW, even though I know the proper pronunciation of Syclant, I always say "SY-clant" ("SY" rhymes with "pie") in my head when I read it!)
  17. jas61292

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    Ok, let me take a different approach to this. A lot of you seem to be saying that pronunciation is good because it is a logical thing to include with a name, and it is another rule that will help reduce the number of legal submissions. However, everyone seems to be missing the important point that pronunciation is fundementially different than the other requirements in that it will not actually reduce the number of legal submissions. No, instead all it will do is reduce the number of submissions period.

    Take a look at the rules for an art final submission:
    Notice that every single rule here is easy to follow. Almost anyone who has the ability to upload a picture would be able to submit an image that follows these rules. You don't actually need any artistic ability. Even though we are looking for good art, our rules are not in place to judge based on art or artist quality. For better or worse, all the rules do is standardize what is legal, and trip some people up who don't read the rules thoroughly.

    Now take a look at the name rules that DougJustDoug proposed earlier. While obviously tailored to a different step of the process, these rules are practially identical to the art ones in that they do not judge people based on the quality of their name or their ability as a name creator. It judges their ability to follow rules. Anyone who has an idea who can read the rules could get their name slated under those rules, just like anyone who can draw could get their art slated in the art step. It is about reading the rules and following them not ones ability to complete the tasks necessary.

    Pronunciation is different. Its true that, like the other rules, it would provide an extra thing people have to read or else not get slated. However, it also has a huge potential to just prevent people from submitting at all. Say that we decided to go with IPA pronunciation as a requirement. Well, guess what? I don't know how IPA works. Guess that means I am never submitting a name. And, I am not afraid to take a guess that this holds true for a vast number of other contributors. This is not a rule triping people up and limiting legal submissions. This is a rule intimidating people out of submitting at all. And to make things worse, you know those people who didn't know IPA? The ones who couldn't submit at all because of that rule? Yeah, well guess what. The pronunciations in the legal entries don't even mean anything to them. So... let me get this straight. IPA would prevent potential good name submitters at all, and not even provide anything useful to the majority of the community. And we want this why?

    Voice recording isn't any better either. I don't have a microphone. No submission for me. My speakers don't work/I don't have a program that can play the file. No pronunciation for you. Obviously the former is more of a concern than the latter, but the point still stands.

    The only one that seems even remotely close to not being a problem is some sort of just generic pronunciation like CiteAndPrune gave an example of. However, I find that to be equally a waste of time as it simply takes the above problems and covers them with a friendly face. If you truly want to know how it is prononuced you would need to be able to look up and know the pronunciation of the words on which it is based, which could potentially still require IPA. In addition, they are fairly useless, as words themselves are subject to pronunciation changes based on local dialects.

    Regardless of the specifics though, the important thing to remember is that this is not just another rule. It is a requirement that will prevent people from submitting at all, rather than just limiting legal submissions, and that is not what we want. We are a community project, and we want to look like it. Making it difficult for someone who is not educated in the intricacies of linguistic to submit a name is not what we want.
  18. srk1214

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    Jas, IPA may not be the easiest thing to just learn and use consistently. But if a submitter isn't willing to put in the very small amount it would take to IPA-ize ONE NAME, I don't know why they're even submitting anything.

    It's not that hard to translate something using, for example, this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English

    I really think this is an entirely logical step to restrict people from making lazy entries. We also don't have to be exceedingly harsh on IPA entries. For example, I'd not translate Revenankh or Pyroak precisely the way DJD did above (rɛvɛnɑŋk, pajrok.) The ɑ in Revenankh should be ɑː and the aj in Pyroak I prefer as aɪ. But I still know what they all say. All the restriction is intended to do is keep lazy people's entries out. Not eliminate people who may provide a slightly weird/wrong IPA.



    P.S. Yes. It's totally saɪklænt (Sigh-Clant) and not Sickle-Ant. Lawman picked an unnatural pronunciation
  19. Birkal

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    I am in full agreement with DougJustDoug's most recent proposal. Furthermore, I agree with Doug's "name rules" listed in this post. I think that by having very specific rules and the added obstacle of pronunciation, we'll be addressing our desire to both improve the quality and diminish the size of Name Submissions.
  20. Pwnemon

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    what bs syclant is and should ways be said "SICK-Lint."

    if we do pronunciation guides i will fight like hell that they be just like I did above, no IPA or anything, that's too complex. For example, "Mollux: pronounced MALL-licks." (MALL-Lucks, idc) (or even something like "Mall-uh-cks", the actual pronunciation isn't the point) As jas said, anything more deters good contributions because of being overly convoluted and who the hell knows how to read IPA anyway?

    edit: i know you're not doug i'm just saying
  21. DougJustDoug

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    For the record, I am not making up my own interpretation of the pronunciation of Syclant. I know most people don't know the proper pronunciation, which is one reason I used it as an example. But even when Lawman first proposed it, he gave a pronunciation of it. Just see this post where the name was proposed: click here.
  22. paintseagull

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    I am totally fine with a simple pronunciation specification, where you spell out the sound of each syllable and capitalize the emphasis. In fact that's what I assumed IPA was (guilty of not looking it up before advocating for it, sorry). Turns out there is no such guideline for the simple way of doing it that I could find anyway. IPA is a little intimidating, I think it wouldn't be so hard but if others find it daunting maybe we could go for something simpler.

    I also think voice recording should be off the table, seems silly to me, I don't wanna have to listen to a bunch of 2 second audio clips to be honest.

    p.s. cheers [​IMG]
  23. I agree with this, and am also against IPA for the reasons other posters have already given. But I don't mind requiring a simple pronunciation guide, since it's been rightly pointed out that people are free to ignore them anyway. Anyone can figure out a simple pronunciation guide, and that should do enough to weed out unpronouncable entries, while IPA is useful to a smaller number of the same people, and could look daunting to others. The simple ones are also extremely easy to create (for good submissions at least), which should eliminate any reason to use voice recording instead. I think that simple pronunciation and Doug's proposed rules should be all that we need for now.

    SICK-lant
  24. CiteAndPrune

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    I support the simple prounciation guide requirement as well. It's definitely much easier to manage than either involving IPA or doing voice recordings, since not everyone has the equipment/software to do those.

    I understand your worries about the dialects, jas, but still I think that this solution is simple enough to prove itself in practice. If and when pronunciation for names was given, people were doing it already referencing words, weren't they? At least as far as connecting the name to its root pieces (you don't make up brand new names from thin air, at least not for Pokemon) so this would mostly just expand on and clarify what we've already had been doing so far.
  25. DougJustDoug

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    Co-authored by DougJustDoug and Birkal

    There's been lots of great discussion here. Thank you for the various proposals, counterproposals and comments. We may not be in 100% agreement on all points, but we've come to a decent consensus. We are all generally aligned that we want flavor slates to be open to everyone and objectively determined, and we want to impose some more guidelines to help keep submissions manageable.

    Conclusion:

    We will be slating all legal, final submissions from here on out for all flavor polls. The CAP moderators will determine which submissions are legal based on the rules listed in each flavor thread OP and the general rules and principles of the CAP project overall. The first poll for all flavor steps will be Multiple Bold Vote to lower the slate down to a manageable level for later polls.

    For Name and Pokedex Entries, the following rules will be enforced to encourage active intelligent participation, to help reduce the size of the first slate, and to improve quality of submissions.

    Name Rules (open)

    Legal name submissions must meet the following standards
    • Names must start with a capital letter.
    • Names cannot be longer than 10 letters.
    • Names can only contain the following characters:
      • Letters A-Z
      • Numbers 1-9
      • Dash (-)
      • Apostrophe (')
      • Period (.)
      • Space
    • No more than two capital letters can be included in the name, and capital letters cannot be consecutive.
    • A maximum of two non-letters can be included in the name, and a maximum of one non-letter of each type can be included (ie. You can't have two numbers, or two apostrophes, but you could have one number and one apostrophe)

    Work In Progress (WIP) Names can be posted at any time for comments from the community.

    No more than three WIP Names can be posted by any individual person through the entire course of the submission thread. This limit applies to ALL posts made by a single person, even if previous posts are edited or deleted. This limit is intended to curb the tendency for some submitters to spam the thread repeatedly with lists of Names. This detracts from other submissions and makes it difficult for commenters to survey the submission thread.

    Do not bump your WIP names by posting them repeatedly, or making minor spelling changes of a letter or two. Bumping will result in the disqualification of all names by the offender. Editing or deleting bump posts will not prevent disqualification.

    Only ONE Final Submission can be made per person.

    Name Final Submissions can only be posted after a CAP Moderator posts in the thread that final submissions are open. Any final submission posted prior to the Moderator notification post, will disqualify the submitter from the poll entirely. Even if the offending post is edited later or deleted, the submitter will still be disqualified for the remainder of the thread. This ensures that all submitters have equal opportunity to post final submissions without anyone unfairly "jumping the gun".

    Final submissions must provide one sentence (25 words maximum) explaining the etymology of the name.

    Final submissions must provide a common English pronunciation and a pronunciation in IPA. The common pronunciation can be made in whatever format you feel best conveys the pronunciation to most English speakers. For information about IPA and processing words into IPA read this guide: IPA For English. There are also numerous phonetic translation tools online that can help.

    Name Final Submissions must posted exactly in the following format and in the following exact order:
    • The first line of the post must have the words "Final Submission" in bold on it's own line. No other text may be included before the bold heading.
    • A blank line
    • The Name submission in bold.
    • A blank line
    • A one line description of the etymology of the name or why it is appropriate for our Pokemon.
    • A blank line
    • "Pronounced: <common English pronunciation>"
    • "IPA: <IPA pronunciation>"
    Below the Final Submission you can post other comments, explanations, etc.

    Example final submission:
    Any Final Submission that does not follow the proper format will be disqualified.


    Pokedex Rules (open)
    Legal Pokedex submissions must meet the following standards
    • Pokedex Entries must have flawless grammar. Smogon has a Grammar & Prose team that will help identify mistakes.
    • Pokedex Entries cannot be longer than 25 words.
    • Pokedex Entries can only contain the following characters:
      • Letters A-Z
      • Numbers 1-9
      • Dash (-)
      • Apostrophe (')
      • Period (.)
      • Comma (,)
      • Colon (:)
      • Semi-colon (;)
      • Space

    Work In Progress (WIP) Pokedex Entries can be posted at any time for comments from the community.

    No more than three WIP Pokedex Entries can be posted by any individual person through the entire course of the submission thread. This limit applies to ALL posts made by a single person, even if previous posts are edited or deleted. This limit is intended to curb the tendency for some submitters to spam the thread repeatedly with multiple Pokedex Entries. This detracts from other submissions and makes it difficult for commenters to survey the submission thread.

    Do not bump your WIP Pokedex Entries by posting them repeatedly, or making minor wording changes. Bumping will result in the disqualification of all Pokedex Entries by the offender. Editing or deleting bump posts will not prevent disqualification.

    Only ONE Final Submission can be made per person.

    Pokedex Entry Final Submissions can only be posted after a CAP Moderator posts in the thread that final submissions are open. Any final submission posted prior to the Moderator notification post, will disqualify the submitter from the poll entirely. Even if the offending post is edited later or deleted, the submitter will still be disqualified for the remainder of the thread. This ensures that all submitters have equal opportunity to post final submissions without anyone unfairly "jumping the gun".

    Pokedex entries Final Submissions must posted exactly in the following format and in the following exact order:
    • The first line of the post must have the words "Final Submission" in bold on it's own line. No other text may be included before the bold heading.
    • A blank line
    • "<Pokemon Name>, the <Species Name> Pokemon", with the Pokemon name and the Species Name in bold
    • A blank line
    • The Black Pokedex Entry submission. Start with the word "Black" in bold, then a colon (:), and then the Pokedex entry.
    • A blank line
    • The White Pokedex Entry submission. Start with the word "White" in bold, then a colon (:), and then the Pokedex entry.
    • A blank line
    • The Black 2 & White 2 Pokedex Entry submission. Start with the word "BW2" in bold, then a colon (:), and then the Pokedex entry.
    Below the Final Submission you can post other comments, explanations, etc.

    Example final submission:

    Any Final Submission that does not follow the proper format will be disqualified.

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