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Pokémon Florges

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by GSP, Oct 14, 2013.

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  1. GSP

    GSP

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    [​IMG]
    Florges
    Type: Fairy
    Predicted Base Stats: 78 / 65 / 68 / 112 / 154 / 75
    Abilities: Flower Veil (Prevents Grass-type allies from becoming statused)
    Symbiosis (The Pokemon can pass an item to an ally)
    Notable Known Moves:
    Aromatherapy
    Moon Blast
    Psychic
    Grass Knot
    Calm Mind
    Wish
    Protect
    Analysis:
    Florges is one of the new Fairy-types introduced this generation, so it's not so surprising that it works a lot like the original Fairy-type, Sylveon. They both have mediocre stats aside from their outstanding Special Attack and Special Defense, and their movepools leaves a lot to be desired. However, a few moves do stand out: Aromatherapy and Wish. These 2 moves give it just the right amount of backing it needs to make a name for itself in this metagame.

    Potential Movesets:

    Medicinal Herb
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Flower Veil
    Nature: Calm
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Moves: Wish / Protect / Aromatherapy or Toxic / Moon Blast

    At the moment, Florges doesn't have the offensive movepool to go for an attacking set, so this is the best it can do so far. Florges can work an excellent cleric; healing itself or others with Wish and Aromatherapy. Toxic is also an option to poison stall some Pokemon.
    What differentiates Florges from a lot other clerics is that it can also provide some form of offensive presence. A base 95 STAB move backed by a base 112 Special Attack is enough to dent quite a few Pokemon, possibly even OHKOing Pokemon if it's super-effective (Calcs needed).
    A major flaw in Florges is that besides from its Special stats, it's terrible. Pretty much any moderately powerful physical attack is enough to OHKO or 2HKO it, so play to its strengths at it should be a valuable member to your team.
    Forretress and Scizor make excellent teammates for Florges. Forretress can be the physical side of a defensive core, or Scizor can provide some deadly physical pressure. Both are immune to Poison and resist Steel, while Florges can take Fire-type attacks coming their way (so long it's not Flare Blitz or Fire Punch).

    Flower Power
    Item
    : Life Orb
    Ability: Flower Veil
    Nature: Timid / Modest
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
    Moves: Calm Mind / Moon Blast / Psychic / Hidden Power Fire or Ground

    With Florges' high Special Attack and a movepool just big enough, an offensive set could be used. Calm Mind is the crux of this set, as it raises Florges' already high Special stats to monstrous levels. Moon Blast is obligatory STAB, with HP Ground allows it to hit to hit the Poison- and Steel-type that resist it. However, HP Fire could be used to hit things like Skarmory and Bronzong, while still doing neutral damage to Poison-types. If you run HP Fire, it's in your best interest to run Psychic so you can hit Poison-types super-effectively.

    Sweet Leaf
    Item
    : Leftovers
    Nature: Bold
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Moves: Calm Mind / Recover / Aromatherapy / Moon Blast

    As Moon Blast is only resisted by 2 types (both of which not all that common), a mono-attacking set could work to great effect. With a few Calm Mind boosts and max HP and Defense, Florges could take hits from both sides of the attacking spectrum while simultaneously raising it's Special Attack.
    Recover and Aromatherapy is so Florges can heal off any damage it takes while setting up and is not Toxic stalled by the likes of Heatran and Blissey. Moon Blast is obligatory STAB. Decently powerful, accurate, and is only resisted by 2 types.
    Any Pokemon that can deal with Poison- and Steel-types makes a good teammate for this Florges. So basically, anything with Earthquake and/or a Fire attack.

    Other Options:
    With Florges' subpar Speed, a Choice Scarf set could be used, but there are many faster Pokemon that hold Choice Scarfs, so it becomes obsolete in higher tiers.

    Checks and Counters:
    Anything with a physical attack that isn't Dragon and can take a Moon Blast are your best bet. So Pokemon like Arcanine and offensive Poison-types or Steel-types can put Florges in some real trouble.


    P.S. Please tell me if any part of this is lacking, there's another moveset I can add, or if I can improve on a certain area. Thanks!

    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  2. FrostFire

    FrostFire

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    At first glance, Florges looks kind of cool; 72/148 special bulk is pretty awesome, and 118 special attack is more than decent. Thing is though, most of the things that Fairy types would really like to wall are physical; dragons like Garchomp, Salamence and Dragonite will all be targeting it's lower defense stat. The other resists it has tend to be physical attacks as well - U-turn for bugs, Crunch from Ttar. And even with the U-turn resist, the most common user (Scizor) can destroy Florges with Technician Bullet Punch. Also, while Florges seems to want to run a specially bulky support set, ask yourself: Why am I not just using Blissey/ Chansey? With their enormous HP factored in, they have more physical bulk, more special bulk, S-Toss for consistent damage, and the ability to pass gigantic wishes.

    Fairy may be a better typing, but I just think that Florges' stats are... unfortunately not the best :(
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  3. GSP

    GSP

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    I agree. Really the only thing Florges has on Chansey/Blissey is an immunity to Dragon, a few resists, and more offensive capabilities.
  4. Magnemite

    Magnemite arceus with wings
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    It's such a shame, too. It looked like it had so much more potential. The nail in the coffin is the fact that its ability is the most horribly situational ability to ever exist. I mean honestly, who came up with Flower Veil? It's almost like they tried to make it the least useful non-hindering ability imaginable.
  5. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Sadly, as I posted in the Gardevoir thread, you're exactly right. This thing is really just like Gardevoir with slightly better stats but no WoW. High SpD but awful physical defense, and that physical defense is really a killer. I think it needs some defensive investment or it will fall way too easily against even resisted physical hits, and its SpD is high enough already. Maybe if it gains a wider offensive movepool or a better ability it will really open up more options for Florges!
  6. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    It looks to be outclassed by Sylveon unless has another usable and much better ability.

    Sylveon has more HP and it is slower, but it is not so much rellevant on a supporting set role in which having more HP is better.
    Sylveon also has Heal Bell because Eevee learns it as a Move tutor in past gens.
  7. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Florges learns Aromatherapy which is, for all intents and purposes, the same thing as Heal Bell.

    But yeah, its WishPass set is outclassed by Sylveon because it has less HP and overall bulk.

    How I wish it had a Grass/Fairy typing...doesn't make sense at all that it doesn't.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2013
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  8. mac1275

    mac1275

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    It could have a niche setting up grassy terrain, but it seems like Florges was designed for doubles in a way. Both of it's abilities are almost useless in singles, but have minor use in doubles. Symbiosis is a bit strange, but could be used to pass an item to a pokemon that uses gems in doubles. Flower Veil is still pretty useless. Maybe pair this thing with a Gogoat run a physical set with grass gem to hit hard with an initial horn leech and then have Florges pass leftovers while setting up grassy terrain. I could also see Florges seeing a lot of use in UU or RU as a cleric or even as a bulky sweeper if it falls to RU. While I doubt that Florges will be OU, it seems like it could still be useful in other metagames.
    Also, Florges can use a move called petal blizzard. It's basically the grass version of flamethrower, ice beam, thunderbolt. 90BP 100Accuracy 15PP Could be an interesting move on an offensive set that doesn't want to use the risky petal dance.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Please remove Recover from its movepool as it hasn't been confirmed to get it (actually it has nowhere been stated in the research subforum that it gets it at all). Also include more notable known moves, such as Grass Knot, Energy Ball, Psychic, Calm Mind, Hidden Power, and maybe Light Screen.

    Seeing as a Wish Florges is going to be mostly outclassed by Sylveon if they end up in the same tier, i think that an offensive CM set would be Florges's best bet:

    Florges @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flower Gift
    Nature: Modest / Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Calm Mind
    - Moonblast
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fire

    Pretty good coverage with those three moves, with Psychic covering the Poison-types that resist Moonblast, Hidden Power Ground covering many of the Steel- and Fire-types that also resist Moonblast, and Hidden Power Fire covering Bronzong, Scizor, Foretress, and Skarmory. If this thing gets Earth Power as an egg move or from move tutors its going to be a really solid Calm Mind swepeer in UU. Kinda similar to Meloetta, but with better typing, coverage, and no unreliable moves (Focus Blast).
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
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  10. GSP

    GSP

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    Thank you for your addition. When I first made that post, for some reason Recover was on the list of available moves on Showdown, but I see now that it has been removed. I'll change it either now or tomorrow.
  11. Zennistrad

    Zennistrad

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    Right now I'm running Florges with 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA and a Bold nature, with Calm Mind, Moonblast, Psychic, and Hidden Power Fire. It's not nearly as offensively powerful as it would be with special attack investment, but the physical defense EVs give it more flexibile defenses for building boosts, after which it can do some pretty impressive damage.
  12. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Overall, blissey is a dried out special wall, chansey is literally better at being a pathetic helpless special wall since it can actually sponge SE fighting hits and twave the fighting types back (barring something like CB terrak of course: 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 774-912 (109.94 - 129.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 134-158 (37.22 - 43.88%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO though CB terrak with proper prediction can stomp them both in the right scenario)
    and florges and other monster tanks like goodra are better special tanks than it because they can actually hit back!

    Also lets not completely forget that fairy type is literally the undisputed king of all types now(it literally forces the previously- best offensive type to resort to such bad offensive coverage options as sludge bomb and iron head!) due to it's simply seemingly perfect type matchups with pokemon both offensivly and defensivly, though some people still call dragons the king, whatever, still one of the best defensive typings we have heard of.

    This combo of typing and not being worthless outside of sponging special hits (I'm eyeballin' you chansey and blissey) makes it a really good special wall and a real bitch to fight against.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2013
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  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Why would i use Florges over Sylveon as a defensive Pokemon? Sylveon has way better physical bulk, practically same special bulk (though Sylveon's bulk is a tad better), similar power, and bigger Wishes. So you should probably go and present similar calcs in Sylveon's thread.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
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  14. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    because the jump to 75 speed, calm mind, better movepool and better special bulk all make it a great contender, I'm not saying everybody should use it over sylveon, do what you want man, I'm just saying it's certainly a contender as a special tank in OU.

    (252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 83-98 (23.05 - 27.22%) -- possible 5HKO
    VS
    252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 93-110 (23.6 - 27.91%) -- possible 5HKO
    yes it's not much in this scenario, but all I'm saying is that it's better
    sylveon wins physical bulk, though I'm not sure why you would be using a special wall to be a physical wall, as both of them should mainly be used as tanks, special walls or mixed walls)

    nvm sylveon gets calm mind, it's really up to the player if they want the higher all other stats or the higher physical defense stat
  15. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Florges' stats listed on Serebii are 78 / 65 / 68 / 112 / 154 / 75. Notably, this gives Florges higher bulk than the original estimate but lower speed and special attack.

    With 78/68/154 defenses and a solid typing there's plenty of reason to use Florges, but Florges' main problem is that movepool. Sylveon can literally do everything Florges can: Calm Mind, Moonblast, Wish... even Aromatherapy is matched by Sylveon's Heal Bell. These two are nearly identical and it's a shame, really. The only unique thing Florges has are slightly better speed and doubles-oriented Terrain moves. If you like Florges more I'd say the best bet is probably Wish / Protect / Aromatherapy / Moonblast.

    Edit @ above, Florges does NOT have the better movepool, and Sylveon has CM as well. Florges has 15 more speed and slightly better SpD, in exchange for lower physical defense and weaker wishes.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013
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  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I am only talking about defensive Wish + Protect sets, where Florges has zero things to be used over Sylveon. The special bulk is practically the same while Sylveon has better physical bulk and bigger Wishes.

    Of course Florges can play the role of the offensive CM sweeper better (thanks to higher Speed), i never denied that, i just said there is no reason to use defensive Florges in a tier where Sylveon is available too.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  17. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    0 things, oh god look at the master exaggerator, not only does sylveon have downright worse special bulk, special attack (by 2 points but eh, I can still count it) and speed, but it also lacks the movepool that florges has (psychic and grass knot are a lot more useful than one would think) the only thing sylveon has over florges is slightly higher physical bulk, which is really not much of relevance in the roles they play as specially defensive wishers/ wish tanks.

    Infact it's the other way around, why use sylveon when you have literally sylveon 2.0?

    Sylveon's higher HP wishes are really not of relevance as, wishpassing can literally be done by most any other wish tanker in OU better, why? because they have 100+ HP, the same reason why mons like latias don't wish pass, they may be good pokemon on their own, but trying to pass their recovery is really a waste of time for them as there are other pokemon who really could do that better.

    also higher HP subs, not like either of them would consider using sub in most of their sets

    as shadow says, it's mainly up to favoritism to let you pick the mon to fill the role, I still say florges IS sylveon 1.5 or 2.0 w/e

    this really is trivial, I agree with that, I just like to show that florgess isn't that one pokemon that gets outclassed at everything it tries to do, because it isn't.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2013
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    The special bulk difference is negligible and doesn't make any difference in practice so stop mentioning it. And again, we are talking about defensive Wish + Protect sets, which will always use Moonblast, so you only really have one moveslot to spare. Heal Bell and Shadow Ball are decent choices for this slot on Sylveon, where Florges can use Aromatherapy and Psychic, but Shadow Ball gets much better neutral coverage with Moonblast in comparsion to Psychic.
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  19. prettycureXD

    prettycureXD

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    Sylveon gets Dual Screen, Shadow ball,Psyshock and Draining Kiss.
  20. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    I keep mentioning higher sdef because people said sylveon had higher, which was simply untrue, come to think of, you were one of those people, but now that FLORGES is confirmed to have higher sdef, you're trying to say it doesn't matter, interesting view on things eh?

    Anyways, so you really just admitted they pretty much play the same thing, but then again, you're saying sylveon is 100% better as a defensive wish wall than florges because it gets shadow ball, which is literally one of the most terrible moves to use UNSTABBed just because of how useless it is outside of providing perfect neutral coverage (perfect neutral coverage is not important at all for a wall, lets leave it at that)

    Also Sylveon gets dual screens, so what, you're gonna sacrifice 2 moveslots, a item slot (light clay) and near all your momentum to have a chance to get up something that klefki could probably do better as far as a dedicated screener goes. Psyshock all in all is meh since chansey takes little from any unSTABed psyshock (latios's specs psyshock can only 3HKO without hazards) and draining kiss < moonblast are you kidding me? why is using draining kiss even a discussion? why do you think giga drain was hardly ever used before gen 5?
  21. Mysteryracer

    Mysteryracer

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    Florges' SpD allow it to shut down a lot of special attackers in the same fashion as Blissey. The one perk it has though is its Fairy typing, which is arguably one of the best types in the game, due to its resistances to common attacking types such as Dragon, Fighting, Bug, and Dark types, with its only weaknesses being Poison and Steel types, two of the most uncommon attacking types in the game. Running a special sweeping set with Florges would be pointless, because Gardenvoir (and its mega evolution) can do that much better. Florges' main perk is using it as a special wall via taking advantage of its typing. Where other special walls have weaknesses that are easy to exploit, Florges' weaknesses are not as easy to exploit, due to how uncommon Poison and Steel type attacking moves are used. In a way, Florges is more of an anti-meta special wall.
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  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I said that Sylveon has higher special bulk before the OP was updated with the new stats, but even then i said that they practically had the same special bulk and gave no importance to the minuscule special bulk difference. And i think you misunderstood me, which is weird because i already explained it clearly 2-3 times already, but i will do it one more. Sylveon has higher physical bulk and can pass bigger Wishes. Florges has zero advantages over Sylveon as a defensive Wish passer and thus Sylveon is the best at this job. Also, i never mentioned any of the moves you go on a rant about (dual screens, Psyshock, Draining Kiss) because they are irrelevant. Anyway, that's my last response on this conversation because we are going in circles.
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  23. Alphanex20

    Alphanex20

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    IMO, it is really down to personal preference whether to use Sylveon or Florges, but I might use a Florges until December since I can't get a Wish Eevee any time soon (how do you get it anyway?) and Heal Bell isn't legal on Sylveon until December.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2013
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  24. asterat

    asterat

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    Calm mind sets are pointless because any decent physical attacker can revenge kill easily. I just can't see them accomplishing anything.

    However florges is far from useless. It is more or less outclassed by sylveon, but will function a tier lower. I'm not sure about that however. Florges' BST is 27 higher than sylveon, and that is something. Both move pools are barren, but I honestly think it's a waste to not run a hidden power, even if it is very weak. HP ground on florges could break through steels and some fires. HP fire could KO scizor and ferrothorn, but leaves florges open to heatran. It has a shot at OU, but not a huge one. Even though Sylveon is slower with less special bulk and attack the niche better defense (and better wishes) will make it more useful. Also maybe pixilate will be usable in some way or another.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2013
  25. zferolie

    zferolie

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    I'm Aiming to make mine a supporter/SpD wall in a sense.

    Calm Nature
    /Misty Terrain
    /Wish
    /Moon Blast
    /Energy Ball

    252 in HP, either 252 in SpA and rest in SpD or Split between SpA or SpD

    The reason I wasn;t going full tank is that her SpA is decent, and I still want her to do some attacking if need be. Yes, this set is walled by Steels, Poisons, and Fire's. A HP of something over Misty Terrain could work, but then you lose your team wide Safegaurd and Dragon Resistance(Misty Terrain lets you take half damage from Dragon attacks if you are grounded)
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