Follow The Leader [Pre Viability Ranking Discussion!]

[Quantum Tesseract]

Am I the only one thinking that it is waaaaay too early to be having Viability Rankings? And not only that, but the whole complete Viability Rankings, S-D, with 62 possible leaders listed! I mean how many of those 62 leaders have actually been tested at this stage? What percentage of them even have sample teams?! There is no way this could be an accurate representation of the meta at this stage in time.
I could maybe understand having a VR for S to A- mons for what we think might become top threats, but beyond that it just seems stupid and completely random.
Honestly though, Octillery. Octillery. A pokemon that is E rank in PU, providing its team with 1 useful but niche asf ability, strong special coverage, barely usable physical coverage, thunder wave, and literally nothing else. Octillery. It is in C.
Do we honestly think it is better than any of the things it is ranked above? If the answer is yes, the pokemon you are saying yes to should be unranked.
And then I see things like Infernape in D rank. A high tier UU pokemon with respectable usage and ranking in OU, boasting 2 moderately good abilities, very wide physical coverage, solid special coverage, multiple boosting options for special and physical attackers, special and physical priority, reliable recovery, hazards, phazing, Will-O-Wisp, Taunt and more. That's a D rank mon for ya.

The viability rankings simply don't make sense. They are based on nothing. We should keep it to A- and above for now.

Anyway, rather than erupting over the VR, one thing which I wanted to get around to discussing was Talonflame.
I honestly don't think it is half as amazing as some people make it out to be (and I certainly don't think it is S rank material). Literally anything that isn't 2HKOed by Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, or perhaps Steel Wing, and has enough offensive pressure to prevent any attempts of setting up, can often deal with as least half a Talonflame team by itself. Any good team only needs two pokemon to match up reasonably well vs Talon and you're almost set.
Plus even if you do throw 1 or 2 pokemon into your team specifically to prepare for Talonflame (because perhaps you have a few mons weak to it) you really aren't losing out on anything, because most good Talonflame checks are really good pokemon in general, are extremely spashable, or have a lot to gain from this meta. Plus they often double as good checks to many other HO teams like Dragonite and Extreme Speed spam teams. Tyranitar, Heatran, Aggron, Regirock etc.
Also Natural Gift isn't the greatest argument for pushing Talonflame over the edge, because realistically almost 100% of teams will have at least 1 or 2 pokemon which can't do anything at all to Talonteams, and it would be silly not to sack them to scout for Natural Gifts. And then if you screw up your natural gift, you're gone. Plus running Natural Gift requires you to forgo CB or something on 1 or 2 of your pokemon which makes your team overall easier to deal with for teams that would otherwise be less prepared.
And don't get me started on how stupidly crippling that SR weakness is.

I made 4 teams without Talonflame in mind, as I suggested these pokemon as leaders and made these teams before the Talon discussion really took off, and I played 4 games against my friend who grabbed a Talonteam from the thread. I won all 4 games. Now I realise that as this was some serious late night testing, we both made some really retarded moves in a couple of the games, which possibly affected the outcomes, but its easy to see how Talonflame teams do really struggle against a variety of different counters that aren't specially niche mons designed to counter the Birds. I'd hate to how a Talonteam would match up vs Extreme Speed Spam, or a defensive team with 2 or 3 actual dedicated checks. I'm not trying to say Talonteams are trash. But they definitely aren't S worthy. Maybe A rank is more suitable.

Dunsparce vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338549955

Barbaracle vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338551714

Druddigon vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338552931

Shiftry vs Talonflame
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338555005

NOTE: And these are all teams that apparently suck because their leaders are all D rank or Unranked. (Actually upon another look, Shiftry is considered much better, in fact its just as good as Octillery!)

Also just lastly, I gave my friend a turn with my Barbaracle team and I got destroyed every time. Barbaracle has proved to be a very good leader, crushing all my other teams. So could we maybe consider ranking it? Perhaps even above Octillery?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338058608
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338068509

No offense, but your opponent played terribly. they had all of those matches in the bag. If you'd like, I can use that same team (I''m assuming he used mine) and show you how badly off you are. You had three checks to his entire team against a bad opponent, and you still only 2-0'd. What isn't 2hko'd by on of those moves without intimidate/flash fire, though? Thus far I have the rhypheriors/rhydons, Heatran, and (barely) aggron. Admittedly those do check it very, very well, but the pressure it exerts on teambuilding is enormous.
You also played pretty badly vs him in the barbaracle matches. I'm really not sure what to say. All of those teams are ranked, so I'm not sure where you are getting that either.
Extreme speed also has yet to be a problem with the exception of arcanine, a total cteam.

Your right on the rankings, though- Most of the thingsbelow C+ are total geusswork. I'm pretty happy with the B ranks and higher, as well as reasonably with C+, but if anyone has played those mons please let me know (I know you have, let me know which ones should go up, and how high). Tbh I've been mostly running of my maybe 14 or so games and long, long ours of inheritance.

Nominating Breloom for A at least, A+ if possible

I think breloom is a really leader with its various options defensively and offensively, Its teammates also helps against GW spam, especially regirock, Also special pokemon have JUST enough options to work, Vacuum wave and Giga drain and Focus Blast and also Sludge wave are the most notable, Technician Hidden Power Too, I always forgot to say these but banette [Possible teammate] is a notable helpful mega, Prankster Spore/Leech Seed/Substitute/More options and also focus punch, all that helps it a lot

This pokemon also helps against various high-ranked teams, You can always use priority to break the illusion then work forward, Shame no hazards or else it will work much better, as for mew teams it doesn't have the type advantage, but depending on the teams it actually could have a small advantage, and also against GW-Spam teams, I think Regirock can deal with them easily seeing they are Burdspam and fire attacks, Regirock can tank both easily, and ain't scared of no WoW, Clefable teams gotta be scared from sludge wave [Gengar is a possible teammate] and Strong Physical Fighting STAB [Die Chansey], Nidoking can form a problem tho, but again there is probably teammates I forgot about which can take care of Nidoking

It is good, but the main draw, spore, can only be used once. The problem with it, however, is how quickly it dies to mega metagross/anyhting not weak to grass, fighting, and poison (lati twins and gengar come to mind).
It also faces competition from gliscor who has better coverage and reliable recovery.
show me some replays.

 

[G-Luke]

I also believe its too early for a full viability thread, and alot of Pokes there are most likely not as viable in practice (Octillery). Just keep it in S to A range for now. And Glicsor doesnt outclass Breeloom since there teams will be very very different.

Breloom teams will most likely be offence, consisting of a) Breloom. b) One or two SubPunchers c) two techichan special attackers d) one or two burd checks.

Gliscor teams will range from balance to stall archetypes and consist of
A) Gliscor (mostly stallbreaker or physically def)
B) Snorlax (lets get real its gonna be on the team)
C) A special tank
B) A phycial wall (if none already there)
E) Hazard remover

Obviously the teams are gonna be very different and do different things.

And Keldeo is a viable partner for Anything with water and/or fighting special attacks (it prefers its Water STAB howevever since usually its more powerful / spammable) or Kecleon wirh Protean + Nasty Plot.

Landorus-T is not only a great follower, but a great Leader too!

Access to a good ability, awesome physical movepool, excelkent special movepool, hazards, three diffent setup options (Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Calm Mind)
It lacks recovery and hazard control, so it most likely will be a offensive Leader.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I also believe its too early for a full viability thread, and alot of Pokes there are most likely not as viable in practice (Octillery). Just keep it in S to A range for now. And Glicsor doesnt outclass Breeloom since there teams will be very very different.

Breloom teams will most likely be offence, consisting of a) Breloom. b) One or two SubPunchers c) two techichan special attackers d) one or two burd checks.

Gliscor teams will range from balance to stall archetypes and consist of
A) Gliscor (mostly stallbreaker or physically def)
B) Snorlax (lets get real its gonna be on the team)
C) A special tank
B) A phycial wall (if none already there)
E) Hazard remover

Obviously the teams are gonna be very different and do different things.

I didn't say outclass, I said competition. Breloom still makes decent ph stall teams, and gliscor still makes decent ph offense. Breloom has pretty magor advantages, but I'm not sure that they are as good as, say, kecleon. The point is valid, however.

Imma hide tag everything c and lower.

 

[NOCturnal Hunter]

Okay, since I have internet again (yay!) I should be able to help out by making teams to help with the Kyurem-B suspect. However, while Kyurem-B is stupid good, I do believe we should focus on broken leaders, which will do more to break the metagame. Clefable teams, Talon teams, and Dragonite teams, for instance. I know they may not be broken, I'm jsut trying to list some good leaders.

Also, would someone show me where this Viability Ranking for leaders is that I so badly advocated for? I see people referencing it, but I cannot find it.

 

[Stocke]

Okay, since I have internet again (yay!) I should be able to help out by making teams to help with the Kyurem-B suspect. However, while Kyurem-B is stupid good, I do believe we should focus on broken leaders, which will do more to break the metagame. Clefable teams, Talon teams, and Dragonite teams, for instance. I know they may not be broken, I'm jsut trying to list some good leaders.

Also, would someone show me where this Viability Ranking for leaders is that I so badly advocated for? I see people referencing it, but I cannot find it.

It's in post #172: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/follow-the-leader.3565685/page-7#post-6696847

 

[nightsitter]

If anyone wants to test things out I'll be in the OM room on main

 

[Stocke]

Just scored my first two victories with my Mawile team. Showdown's replay-uploading server still seems to be down and I don't know of a good place to upload the downloadable file option it gives you, so I'll just post the chat logs in hide tags and you can read if you'd like.

vs. nightsitter

nightsitter joined.
Atael joined.
Format:
Custom Game
Atael's team:Mawile / Kyurem-Black / Metagross / Gengar / Keldeo / Aerodactyl
nightsitter's team:Mew / Heatran / Pidgeot / Swampert / Shaymin / Tyranitar
★nightsitter: hmmm interesting
Battle between nightsitter and Atael started!

nightsitter sent out Shaymin!

Go! Aerodactyl!
[Aerodactyl's Intimidate!]
The opposing Shaymin's Attack fell!
Turn 1

Aerodactyl used Taunt!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 11.
The opposing Shaymin fell for the taunt!

The opposing Shaymin used U-turn!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 74.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 7.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 3.
It's not very effective... Aerodactyl lost 6.6% of its health!

The opposing Shaymin went back to nightsitter!

nightsitter sent out Swampert!
Turn 2

Aerodactyl used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing Swampert used Waterfall!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 74.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 5.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 13.
It's super effective! Aerodactyl lost 76.0% of its health!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 74.
Turn 3

Aerodactyl used Super Fang!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 69.
The opposing Swampert lost 50% of its health!

The opposing Swampert used Defog!
Aerodactyl's evasiveness fell!
The pointed stones disappeared from around the opposing team!

The opposing Swampert restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 4

Aerodactyl used Knock Off!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 1.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 9.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
The opposing Swampert lost 20.0% of its health!
Aerodactyl knocked off the opposing Swampert's Leftovers!

The opposing Swampert used Soft-Boiled!
The opposing Swampert restored its HP.
Turn 5

Aerodactyl, come back!

Go! Keldeo!

The opposing Swampert used Waterfall!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 4.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 10.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 8.
It's not very effective... Keldeo lost 17.0% of its health!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 73.
Turn 6

nightsitter withdrew Swampert!

nightsitter sent out Shaymin!

Keldeo used Grass Knot!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 39.
[DEBUG] 20 bp.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 15.
It's not very effective... The opposing Shaymin lost 2.5% of its health!
Keldeo lost some of its HP!

The opposing Shaymin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 7
★Atael: tbh there are probably better choices than Keldeo for this team but I didn't want to use Heatran because of its Ground weakness

Keldeo used Flamethrower!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 93.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 8.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 0.
It's super effective! The opposing Shaymin lost 76.0% of its health!

The opposing Shaymin used Will-O-Wisp!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 3.
Keldeo was burned!

The opposing Shaymin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
Turn 8
★nightsitter: you could always run air balloon
★nightsitter: oh but you want lo
★Atael: mhm
★Atael: Heatran is kind of slow too

nightsitter withdrew Shaymin!

nightsitter sent out Mew!

Keldeo used Flamethrower!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 48.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 13.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 1.
The opposing Mew lost 47.6% of its health!

The opposing Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
Turn 9
★nightsitter: i don't think i have a good answer to keldeo
★nightsitter: with non-mega'd pidgeot

Keldeo, come back!

Go! Kyurem (Kyurem-Black)!

The opposing Mew used Soft-Boiled!
The opposing Mew restored its HP.
Turn 10

Kyurem used Swords Dance!
Kyurem's Attack rose sharply!

The opposing Mew used Will-O-Wisp!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 52.
Kyurem was burned!

Kyurem was hurt by its burn!
Turn 11

Kyurem used Ice Punch!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 17.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 6.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 11.
The opposing Mew lost 48.6% of its health!

The opposing Mew used Knock Off!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 84.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 3.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 13.
Kyurem lost 18.4% of its health!
The opposing Mew knocked off Kyurem's Life Orb!

The opposing Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Kyurem was hurt by its burn!
Turn 12

Kyurem used Ice Punch!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 88.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 8.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 7.
The opposing Mew lost 39.2% of its health!

The opposing Mew used Soft-Boiled!
The opposing Mew restored its HP.

The opposing Mew restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Kyurem was hurt by its burn!
Turn 13
★Atael: +2 and a burn effectively means I'm doing unboosted damage, right?
★nightsitter: yeah
★Atael: probably some discrepancies due to rounding but it's basically the same thing
★nightsitter: i think the calculations occur at the same stage, so it should be exactly the same
★Atael: an unboosted Kyurem-B seems to be manageable then, it's more of a worry when it is boosted
★Atael: which is very possible in this meta
★Atael: ok
★Atael: well it's possible in Standard too but you need to pass the boosts
★nightsitter: also with life orb still attached

Kyurem, come back!

Go! Gengar!

The opposing Mew used Soft-Boiled!
The opposing Mew restored its HP.
[DEBUG] natural status immunity.
Turn 14
★nightsitter: mawile doesn't get cleric support, does it?
★Atael: don't think so unfortunately
★Atael: do any other Sheer Force users, though?
★Atael: I'll have to check
★nightsitter: !dexsearch heal bell, sheer force
No Pokémon found.
★nightsitter: !dexsearch aromatherapy, sheer force
No Pokémon found.

Gengar used Shadow Ball!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 72.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 5.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
It's super effective! The opposing Mew lost 100% of its health!

The opposing Mew fainted!
★nightsitter: i should've calc'd that lol

nightsitter sent out Tyranitar!
[DEBUG] natural status immunity.
Turn 15

The opposing Tyranitar used Sucker Punch!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 47.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 13.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 3.
It's super effective! Gengar lost 100% of its health!

Gengar fainted!
★Atael: ah, yeah

Go! Keldeo!
Turn 16
★nightsitter: mew gives so many options to ttar
★nightsitter: to the extent that i'm running three dark moves
★Atael: should've just switched to this

nightsitter withdrew Tyranitar!

nightsitter sent out Swampert!

Keldeo used Focus Blast!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 79.
The opposing Swampert avoided the attack!

Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
Turn 17
★Atael: what's the third one?
★nightsitter: pursuit
★Atael: I don't think Mew gets Pursuit
★Atael: May be wrong though

Keldeo used Grass Knot!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 49.
[DEBUG] 80 bp.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 15.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 4.
It's super effective! The opposing Swampert lost 86.1% of its health!
Keldeo lost some of its HP!

The opposing Swampert fainted!

Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
★nightsitter: !learn mew, pursuit
In Gen 6, Mew can't learn Pursuit
★nightsitter: oh fuck
★nightsitter: good call
★nightsitter: i'll have to get rid of it

nightsitter sent out Tyranitar!
Turn 18
★nightsitter: i won't use it
★Atael: ok
★Atael: nothing I have that it would hit in particular, at least now that Gengar's gone
★Atael: well it would hit Metagross SE but I have a fighting move on it

The opposing Tyranitar used Sucker Punch!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 27.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 12.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 15.
It's not very effective... Keldeo lost 13.6% of its health!

Keldeo fainted!
★nightsitter: true
★nightsitter: and why would you switch out with metagross

Go! Metagross!
[Metagross's Intimidate!]
The opposing Tyranitar's Attack fell!
Turn 19

nightsitter withdrew Tyranitar!

nightsitter sent out Shaymin!

Metagross's Metagrossite is reacting to Atael's Mega Bracelet!
Metagross has Mega Evolved into Mega Metagross!

Metagross used Swords Dance!
Metagross's Attack rose sharply!

The opposing Shaymin restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 20
★Atael: nice thing about Mawile in particular is that it gets Swords Dance
★Atael: which is something it has over most other Sheer Force users
★Atael: !dexsearch sheer force, swords dance
Cranidos, Croconaw, Feraligatr, Kingler, Krabby, Landorus, Mawile, Rampardos, Totodile
★nightsitter: feraligatr would be cool too
★Atael: Mawile has the largest physical movepool out of those iirc

Metagross used Brick Break!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 76.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 5.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 7.
The opposing Shaymin lost 36.4% of its health!

The opposing Shaymin fainted!
★nightsitter: i loved its mega back in xy
★nightsitter: did it get a mega in xy?
★Atael: yeah
★nightsitter: i loved it back when it wasn't banned

nightsitter sent out Heatran!
Turn 21
★nightsitter: highly regretting not giving protect to pidgeot
★nightsitter: it would've really helped against metagross and keldeo and gengar
★Atael: let's see if Brick Break will OHKO

Metagross used Brick Break!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 51.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 3.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 3.
It's super effective! The opposing Heatran lost 95.1% of its health!

The opposing Heatran used Flamethrower!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 95.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 3.
It's super effective! Metagross lost 85.7% of its health!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 48.

The opposing Heatran restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 22
★Atael: nope
★Atael: close though

Metagross used Brick Break!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 26.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 9.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 11.
It's super effective! The opposing Heatran lost 11.2% of its health!

The opposing Heatran fainted!
★nightsitter: gg
★Atael: t-tar has Sucker Punch, right
★Atael: this might be bad

nightsitter sent out Tyranitar!
Turn 23

Metagross used Brick Break!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 40.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 2.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 9.
It's super effective! The opposing Tyranitar lost 100% of its health!

The opposing Tyranitar fainted!
★nightsitter: fuck
★nightsitter: good prediction

nightsitter sent out Pidgeot!
Turn 24
★nightsitter: gg

The opposing Pidgeot's Pidgeotite is reacting to nightsitter's Mega Bracelet!
The opposing Pidgeot has Mega Evolved into Mega Pidgeot!

Metagross used Iron Head!
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 13.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 6.
The opposing Pidgeot lost 100% of its health!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 65.

The opposing Pidgeot fainted!

Atael won the battle!
★Atael: gg.
★Atael: ah, replays are still down
★nightsitter: shame
★nightsitter: all of my matches have been lost forever ;(
★Atael: any particular need to post the log, or should we just leave it at this?
★nightsitter: we can just leave it at this i think
★nightsitter: but if you want you can
★Atael: ok
★nightsitter: definitely post about mawile though, it's a very solid leader
★Atael: I already have
★Atael: I posted an older version of this team in the thread too, only changes since then are that I replaced Mega Medicham with Mega Metagross and Flash Cannon on Keldeo with Focus Blast
★Atael: I decided Flash Cannon was unnecessary because I already have two things to take care of fairies
★Atael: plus STAB is nice, even if it's unreliable
★nightsitter: yeah
★nightsitter: what do you run on mawile itself?

vs. synn3rz (not sure who that is on here)

synn3rz joined.
Atael joined.
Format:
Custom Game
Atael's team:Mawile / Kyurem-Black / Metagross / Gengar / Keldeo / Aerodactyl
synn3rz's team:Sigilyph / Slowbro / Tyranitar / Heatran / Sableye / Azelf
Battle between synn3rz and Atael started!

synn3rz sent out Tyranitar!

Go! Aerodactyl!
[Aerodactyl's Intimidate!]
The opposing Tyranitar's Attack fell!
Turn 1

The opposing Tyranitar used Protect!
The opposing Tyranitar protected itself!

Aerodactyl used Taunt!
The opposing Tyranitar protected itself!

The opposing Tyranitar was burned by the Flame Orb!
Turn 2
★Atael: ah

Aerodactyl used Stealth Rock!
Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing Tyranitar used Psycho Shift!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 8.
Aerodactyl was burned!
The opposing Tyranitar healed its burn!

Aerodactyl was hurt by its burn!
The opposing Tyranitar was burned by the Flame Orb!
Turn 3

Aerodactyl used Super Fang!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 83.
The opposing Tyranitar lost 49.9% of its health!

The opposing Tyranitar used Whirlwind!
[DEBUG] randBW(5) = 4.

Mawile was dragged out!
[Mawile's Intimidate!]
The opposing Tyranitar's Attack fell!
[DEBUG] damage event failed.
Turn 4

Mawile, come back!

Go! Keldeo!

The opposing Tyranitar used Psycho Shift!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 20.
Keldeo was burned!
The opposing Tyranitar healed its burn!

Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
The opposing Tyranitar was burned by the Flame Orb!
Turn 5

Keldeo used Focus Blast!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 90.
The opposing Tyranitar avoided the attack!

The opposing Tyranitar used Whirlwind!
[DEBUG] randBW(5) = 4.

Aerodactyl was dragged out!
[Aerodactyl's Intimidate!]
The opposing Tyranitar's Attack fell!

Aerodactyl was hurt by its burn!
[DEBUG] damage event failed.
Turn 6
★Atael: oh

Aerodactyl used Knock Off!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 1.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 10.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
It's not very effective... The opposing Tyranitar lost 4.0% of its health!
Aerodactyl knocked off the opposing Tyranitar's Flame Orb!

The opposing Tyranitar used Whirlwind!
[DEBUG] randBW(5) = 4.

Keldeo was dragged out!

Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
[DEBUG] damage event failed.
Turn 7

Keldeo used Focus Blast!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 44.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 8.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 15.
It's super effective! The opposing Tyranitar lost 45.9% of its health!

The opposing Tyranitar fainted!

Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
★Atael: ok good

synn3rz sent out Sigilyph!
[DEBUG] damage event failed.
Turn 8

Keldeo used Ice Beam!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 33.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 2.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 1.
It's super effective! The opposing Sigilyph lost 92.2% of its health!

The opposing Sigilyph used Cosmic Power!
The opposing Sigilyph's Defense rose! The opposing Sigilyph's Special Defense rose!

Keldeo was hurt by its burn!
The opposing Sigilyph was burned by the Flame Orb!
Turn 9

Keldeo used Ice Beam!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 84.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 0.
[DEBUG] Negating (sp)def boost/penalty..
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 4.
It's super effective! A critical hit! The opposing Sigilyph lost 7.8% of its health!

The opposing Sigilyph fainted!

Keldeo was hurt by its burn!

synn3rz sent out Azelf!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Azelf!
Turn 10

The opposing Azelf used Psyshock!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 35.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 10.
It's super effective! Keldeo lost 38.1% of its health!

Keldeo fainted!

Go! Metagross!
[Metagross's Intimidate!]
The opposing Azelf's Attack fell!
Turn 11

synn3rz withdrew Azelf!

synn3rz sent out Killswitch (Heatran)!
[DEBUG] damage event failed.

Metagross's Metagrossite is reacting to Atael's Mega Bracelet!
Metagross has Mega Evolved into Mega Metagross!

Metagross used Crunch!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 55.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 9.
The opposing Killswitch lost 23.6% of its health!
Metagross is hurt by the opposing Killswitch's Rocky Helmet!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 24.
Turn 12

Metagross used Swords Dance!
Metagross's Attack rose sharply!

The opposing Killswitch used Calm Mind!
The opposing Killswitch's Special Attack rose! The opposing Killswitch's Special Defense rose!
Turn 13

Metagross used Brick Break!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 37.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 8.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 13.
It's super effective! The opposing Killswitch lost 76.4% of its health!
Metagross is hurt by the opposing Killswitch's Rocky Helmet!

The opposing Killswitch fainted!

synn3rz sent out Azelf!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Azelf!
Turn 14

The opposing Azelf used Shadow Ball!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 57.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 2.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 11.
It's super effective! Metagross lost 66.8% of its health!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 18.
[DEBUG] move failed because it did nothing.

Metagross fainted!

Go! Mawile!
[Mawile's Intimidate!]
The opposing Azelf's Attack fell!
Turn 15

The opposing Azelf used Shadow Ball!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 83.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 11.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 11.
Mawile lost 45.2% of its health!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 5.
Mawile's Special Defense fell!

Mawile used Swords Dance!
Mawile's Attack rose sharply!
Turn 16

synn3rz withdrew Azelf!

synn3rz sent out Sableye!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Sableye!

Mawile used Sucker Punch!
But it failed!
[DEBUG] natural status immunity.
Turn 17

The opposing Sableye's Sablenite is reacting to synn3rz's Mega Bracelet!
The opposing Sableye has Mega Evolved into Mega Sableye!

Mawile used Baton Pass!

Go! Kyurem (Kyurem-Black)!

The opposing Sableye used Calm Mind!
The opposing Sableye's Special Attack rose! The opposing Sableye's Special Defense rose!
[DEBUG] natural status immunity.
Turn 18

Kyurem used Play Rough!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 52.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 10.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 8.
It's super effective! The opposing Sableye lost 87.8% of its health!

The opposing Sableye fainted!

synn3rz sent out Slowbro!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Slowbro!
Turn 19

Kyurem used Thunder Punch!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 17.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 13.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 7.
It's super effective! The opposing Slowbro lost 87.6% of its health!

The opposing Slowbro fainted!

synn3rz sent out Azelf!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Azelf!
Turn 20

The opposing Azelf used Psyshock!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 28.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 11.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 4.
Kyurem lost 55.2% of its health!

Kyurem used Ice Punch!
[DEBUG] randBW(100) = 4.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 7.
[DEBUG] randBW(16) = 14.
The opposing Azelf lost 62.9% of its health!

The opposing Azelf fainted!

Atael won the battle!
synn3rz left.
★Atael: gg.

 

[Stocke]

Sorry for double-posting, but I'd like to weigh up the pros and cons of using Mawile as a leader in an easier-to-read format now that I've seen how it plays firsthand:

Physical moves of note: Play Rough, Iron Head, Crunch, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Foul Play, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Fire Fang, Rock Slide, Brick Break, Stone Edge, Super Fang, Seismic Toss, Counter, Dynamic Punch
Special moves: Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Ancient Power (?), Charge Beam (?)
Status moves: Stealth Rock, Swords Dance, Taunt, Baton Pass, Pain Split, Sing; also, some more situational moves like Endure, Iron Defense, Magnet Rise, Misty Terrain, Snatch, Psych Up, the weather moves, and Torment.
Lacks: Hazard control, cleric support, reliable recovery, special setup outside Charge Beam, priority outside Sucker Punch, reliable status-infliction moves, powerful Ground/Water/Electric coverage, probably a few other things I'm forgetting

The main reason you'd use Mawile over leaders with larger movepools (and better base stats) is its access to both Intimidate and Sheer Force, both fantastic abilities in their own right. That said, it still has a decent movepool in its own right; Mawile has access to a decent variety of coverage in both the Physical and Special categories, as well as good physical setup in Swords Dance, hazards setup with Stealth Rock, and some other neat tools such as Super Fang, Taunt, Pain Split, and Baton Pass. Mawile has disadvantages, though; the lack of reliable recovery, a way to remove hazards if they're setup, and no access to Wish or Heal Bell to support the team all hurt. There's also the fact that Mawile's base stats are so low that running it as a leader effectively means you have a dead slot, but the abilities and moves it can pass on should make up for it if you play well.

edit: I don't have time to do a full recap of good partners so I'll just repost the Mawile team I've been using myself, hopefully that'll be helpful:

mawile team

Mawile @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Baton Pass

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Play Rough
- Swords Dance

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Brick Break

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Foul Play

Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast

Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Super Fang
- Taunt
- Knock Off

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Follow the leader is now playable on urkerab's server. http://rom.psim.us/
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-followtheleader-419 vs urkerab
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-followtheleader-420 Vs Urkerab, round 2
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-followtheleader-422 Vs Angry1

I had nothing to do with it, thank him.

 

[SANJAY]

Replay against Quantum Tesseract

Talonflame team vs Infernape Team

haxed pretty badly at the end (sorry about that) but gg nevertheless

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-341587297

 

[hausdog]

Should we require move and ability compatibilities on the leader, since we're giving 5 pokemon completely new moves and abilities?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Should we require move and ability compatibilities on the leader, since we're giving 5 pokemon completely new moves and abilities?

We do. Thats how it works, Ie no unaware+softboiled heatran.

 

[G-Luke]

Excellent. Now that this playable we can properly test Kyurem-B. And also properly fix viability rankings

 

[nightsitter]

Had a good (albeit haxy) match with NOCturnal Hunter http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-341778421
(sorry about the hax)
(so sorry)

Observations: Heatran is probably one of the best followers in the entire metagame. If you're in a time crunch, watch turn 36 to the end.



http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-341785171
if only i knew of its speed investment...

Observations: Kyu-B is yet another one of the best followers in the entire metagame. Nocturnal chose to run a tanky EV spread, but anyone could just as easily run 252 in speed with jolly. Either way, it's powerful and unpredictable. And it would be even more so if backed with aromatherapy/heal bell support.

 

[Stocke]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-341785171
if only i knew of its speed investment...

Observations: Kyu-B is yet another one of the best followers in the entire metagame. Nocturnal chose to run a tanky EV spread, but anyone could just as easily run 252 in speed with jolly. Either way, it's powerful and unpredictable. And it would be even more so if backed with aromatherapy/heal bell support.

Yeah, I'd definitely have to agree with you here. Kyu-B's only real downsides as a follower are, as you alluded to here, its vulnerability to statuses like Burn and Paralysis (which I've run into during my use of it) and its weakness to Stealth Rock (but that can be avoided when Magic Guard is used, as seen here). Not sure it's banworthy as that'll need further testing, but it's certainly one of the best (currently legal) followers out there.

 

[hausdog]

We do. Thats how it works, Ie no unaware+softboiled heatran.

Oh cool, as long as we're being consistent with the leaders and followers (I say, having never played this meta)

 

[Akumeoy]

Observations: Heatran is probably one of the best followers in the entire metagame..

That's to be expected. When pretty much every team is expected to have gaping holes in it, the ability to completely no-sell six whole types offensively (and resist several more) while boasting good offensive and defensive capabilities is hard to pass up.

Like, what team archetypes wouldn't run Heatran? Rain, Poison Heal, and leaders with no good special Fire moves? Ones that can't effectively run Flying- or Dragon-types to complement it? There might be Tranless builds here and there beyond that, but otherwise I predict it being a staple.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I guess it doesn't matter because this isn't on an official server yet, but what's the point in NOT suspecting it? In a metagame where you can give it literally anything you want to it'll obviously be broken as fuck

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I guess it doesn't matter because this isn't on an official server yet, but what's the point in NOT suspecting it? In a metagame where you can give it literally anything you want to it'll obviously be broken as fuck

rom is official...?
Its registered at least.

 

[tehy]

rom is official...?
Its registered at least.

Think he meant main server (plus maybe aqua)

That said, what mon are you looking to suspect? Might wanna edit that in cause I don't see enough context in the last couple of posts to tell. (Talonflame?)

Edit: this part of the post was at alljokesaside

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Think he meant main server (plus maybe aqua)

That said, what mon are you looking to suspect? Might wanna edit that in cause I don't see enough context in the last couple of posts to tell. (Talonflame?)

I'm not looking at any.

Aqua is down, so does he just mean main? If so, there are only like 9 om's that there is a point for suspecting.

 

[NOCturnal Hunter]

Had a good (albeit haxy) match with NOCturnal Hunter http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-341778421
(sorry about the hax)
(so sorry)

Observations: Heatran is probably one of the best followers in the entire metagame. If you're in a time crunch, watch turn 36 to the end.



http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-341785171
if only i knew of its speed investment...

Observations: Kyu-B is yet another one of the best followers in the entire metagame. Nocturnal chose to run a tanky EV spread, but anyone could just as easily run 252 in speed with jolly. Either way, it's powerful and unpredictable. And it would be even more so if backed with aromatherapy/heal bell support.

I honestly just chose to use what the teambuilder suggested...I was just too lazy to change it to better suit my team. Still, the hax wasn't too bad. I really was mad about it, but I enjoyed that first match nonetheless.

I also did change Encore to Aromatherapy. I haven't tested just yet, but I hope to change that!

Also, I'm still advocating for a temporary unlimited use of Baton Pass. It doesn't look too broken without Smeargle, and even IF Smeargle was allowed, I don't think Baton Pass teams would be used (not when crap like Belly Drum/Tanking/Geo-Spam/QuiverSpam/CoilSpam/SmashSpam/Technician/etc exist...). Don't get me wrong, it would be a threat with Smeargle, but without Smeargle, is it really that overpowered?

 

[Asumi]

my workhorse (workduck) on Inheritance

Leader: Clefable

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind / Cosmic Power
- Moonblast
- Moonlight

One of those setup sets that isn't completely shut down by Unaware, because Stored Power increases its BP for every boost you have.
Calm Mind vs Cosmic Power is entirely your choice.
It will have trouble breaking through Steel-types... until you get Stored Power to absurd levels (up to 260 with maxed CM).


Another good leader:

Abilities: Intimidate, Moxie
Physical: Aqua Tail, Avalanche, Body Slam, Crunch, Double Edge, Dragon Tail, Earthquake, Facade, Ice Fang, Iron Head, Outrage, Return, Stone Edge, Waterfall
Special: Blizzard, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Scald, Surf, Thunder, Thunderbolt
Other: Dragon Dance, Roar, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Toxic

I find it hard not to use a full Intimidate team, because Intimidate users have great move pools and they invalidate physical offense.
Also, DDance M-Gyarados can't be walled by Clefable teams because of Mold Breaker.

Intimidate users are great leaders:

(it's banned in Inheritance for a reason)

(workable moves, with Coil+Shed Skin+Rest to boot. Can pass Glare+Dragon Tail, so you can paralyze everything.)

(good movepool that includes Heal Bell and powerful moves like Close Combat and Overheat)

(also has Sap Sipper, Earthquake and Thunder Wave that Swampert would love to have)

(lead with this suicide leader with Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Explosion/Destiny Bond, Taunt)

(also has Technician-boosted Low Kick, Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch, Fake Out, Aerial Ace, Bulldoze, and Pursuit. Also has Rapid Spin. It's almost purely physical though.)

(similar moves/abilities to Mawile, but with Earthquake, better stats and less supportive moves)

 

[Martin]

Also, I'm still advocating for a temporary unlimited use of Baton Pass. It doesn't look too broken without Smeargle, and even IF Smeargle was allowed, I don't think Baton Pass teams would be used (not when crap like Belly Drum/Tanking/Geo-Spam/QuiverSpam/CoilSpam/SmashSpam/Technician/etc exist...). Don't get me wrong, it would be a threat with Smeargle, but without Smeargle, is it really that overpowered?

I disagree with this on multiple levels:

• BP clause wasn't implemented because its OP, but rather because its uncompetitive.
• Espeon squads are literally six mons with BP+Magic Bounce, and Espeon's movepool is good enough to make this dumb enough to face even w/o Smeargle or Scoli
• It'd be pointless for a clause to be alleviated for the sake of an archetype which has literally no positive impact on the meta being legal

there are more reasons to disagree but i need to sleep 'cause i have a concert in the morning and i cba to remember them

 

[G-Luke]

Asumi Cresslia would prefer Unaware to serve as a set up sweeper check aa well as a sweeper in itself. But if you must run Magic Guard, why run Moonlight? Softboiled is 1000% better.