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Former #1 team, needs help getting caught up to today's world

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by jrrrrrrr, May 17, 2008.

  1. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Heya Smogon, this is the team that I achieved quite a bit of success with on the Shoddy Ladder..with a stay at #1 of almost two weeks. But that was a looooonnnggg time ago, especially in terms of pokemon time. The OU metagame has changed quite a bit since I was really "serious" about playing, and it has changed even more since this team was at its high point, and I am really having difficulty getting back into the swing of things. To put it in perspective, the Smogon tier list has been updated twice since I was using this team with a high success rate. So I figured instead of making a new team it would be better to revamp my old one that I loved using so much. I hope some of you guys can help!

    The main idea is to get a jump on the opponent and keep rolling downhill with just enough defense to brace for an opponent's onslaught, then finish them off before they can regroup. Most of the time, the pokemon will be revealed in this order and when I win it is usually 2-0 or 1-0. Doing this allows me some room for error (though I will almost never "predict" so this isn't usually a factor) and it also gives me some breathing room if I get unlucky.

    Here it is, at a glance:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Let's get started!

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunder Wave
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - U-turn

    In all of my D/P experience, this is the best lead I have used. Hilarity ensues when facing a Yanmega or Ninjask lead. The best part is that it can beat Salamence even after one DD, and slow Gyarados after two DDs. I made it Timid just so I could beat pretty much every other scarfer, and Deoxys-Speed as well. It always helps to have a Ground immune. Thunder Wave is there because I hate Infernape and Gengar, and getting a TWave off before they attack me is usually worth sacking Zapdos for. Plus, Zapdos doesn't really have any other moves worth using. If the opposing lead looks dangerous, I just U-turn out to safety while scouting their switch-in. Usually, they will go to Blissey which allows me to set up this next guy:

    [​IMG]
    Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP/60 Atk/196 SAtk
    Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Crunch
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Punch
    - Substitute

    D/P Tyraniboah variant with a wonderfully effective EV spread given to me by Curt. If something should be changed on it, let me know. Basically, it sets a sub up on Blissey and then batters the opposing switch-in. It's pretty strong, self-explanatory, and really easy to use. -SDef nature since physical hits are far more common, and because Sand Stream pumps its SDef enough to make the difference negligible. I would rather survive an Outrage or a weak EQ than a Surf.

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spd
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Roost
    - Ice Fang
    - Stealth Rock

    Heracross and other fighting type counter that I so desperately need. It cover's most of Tyranitar's weaknesses very well. Again, this guy's job is self-explanatory. Sets up Stealth Rock for great support (I find that Gliscor gets a lot of free turns), and since I really don't care about my opponent's item, Knock Off is pretty useless here. Careful nature is for funny guys that want to use HP Ice Lucario for an OHKO, although more SpDef might be necessary.

    [​IMG]
    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/136 Atk/120 Def
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Zap Cannon
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Gyro Ball

    The spiker and spinner of my team. I've considered removing Rapid Spin for Earthquake, since SR/Spikes/TSpikes really don't hurt me that much, but it really gets in the way of Zapdos' mind games which are key to forcing the opponent into switching. The Atk EVs are to do a solid amount of damage to Gengar and Mismagius. I don't have to worry about Dusknoir or Spiritomb since I have both Heracross and Tyranitar. Zap Cannon is a last resort against Gyarados, and random paras are always fun :)

    [​IMG]
    Heracross (M) @ Choice Band
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 72 Atk/200 Def/236 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Pursuit

    This thing is a BEAST. The defense EVs look funny, but I really can't stop Swampert and Mamoswine/Weavile without them here. Having a defensive investment is always good when you have awesome Ground, Dark and Fighting resists like Heracross does. With this spread and Choice Band, Heracross will always 2HKO Skarmory with SR up with Close Combat (at least it has never failed to do so for me). 200 Defense EVs is just a number I picked that looked good after ipl told me the wonders of a 501 attack stat. If there is something better to shoot for, please tell me.

    Pursuit, along with its high base SpDef makes it a solid Gengar stopper. The 236 speed EVs gives me just enough speed to beat out smarty pants users that want to run max speed Breloom, Machamp and Magnezone. I don't really care about that chump Gliscor, since it cant do anything to any one of my pokemon without a serious health risk to itself. It can Roost off the damage all it wants, its just giving me free switches. The main job of this thing is to slam the other team around juuussttt enough for the next "bulky sweeper" to work its magic.

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 176 HP/80 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Fire Blast

    ...And here's the cleaner. This is almost always the last pokemon I reveal, since without max attack or adamant, it will not be sweeping without some help from Spikes/SR/Heracross beatdowns. 176 HP EVs gives it 401 HP, allowing me to come in on 3 layers of Spikes 4 times, or any other combo of residual damage that adds to 25% (they usually do). It also allows me to comfortably survive Ice Beams from people who just shoot for magic numbers. Dragon Claw is there for when I get paranoid that they may have a Weavile/Mamoswine in reserve and don't want to get stuck in an Outrage. Also, it plays mindgames by making my opponent think that I might have a Yache Berry or Brightpowder equipped instead of Choice Scarf when they get hit by a fairly weak DC.

    Threats that are giving me some serious issues:

    Salamence- SpecsMence takes a huge chunk out of pretty much everything. MixMence is similar. Normally I go to Tyranitar to take the Draco Meteor, exposing its item, then to Zapdos to take the Brick Break, EQ, or weakened Draco Meteor. Salamence is hard to get in against this team though, with Stealth Rock and the fact that all of my pokemon can hit it pretty hard. If worse comes to worst I can just sacrifice something and punish the switch-in after.

    Swampert- Lack of a phazer for CursePert and having no Water resist kind of screws me over. Heracross can stop it a few times with an easy 2hko, but takes a big dent from Hydro Pump and it can be whittled down easily. Again, with Spikes down it is very difficult to bring in but it can wreak havoc when played well.

    Vaporeon/Milotic- I can absorb quite a few hits from them and smack them around quite a bit, but the fact that they never frickin die is what usually gets me. If my opponent is extremely careful with them, they will cause trouble. Again, it makes me think that I could use a solid Water resist but I'm not sure where to fit it in. Surprisingly though, Suicune doesnt give me problems since most of my team can 2hko it while it cant do much offensively with Spikes, SR and its usually weak SpAtk stat.

    Fighting types with an Ice move (Machamp, Gallade and some Lucario)- Since I'm not using a bulky Zapdos, I have to be pretty careful with Fighting types. Gliscor can usually wall them because of Roost, even with the 4x weakness, but an untimely freeze or crit against it will cause me some issues.

    This team is about as old school as D/P can get, but that's pretty much the problem. People have figured out how to stop scarfChomp and CBHera, and pretty much everything I've tried hasn't really done any good. Please help!!
  2. azntrumpet

    azntrumpet

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    Actually I think Salamence can come in quite easily, with not fully powered, Choiced EQ's, CC's, and Megahorns coupled with all of the Support moves, Salamence comes in quite easily. Specs versions especially, since they aren't gonna stick around for your Ice attacks.

    Choice Banded Gyrados's give you trouble as you have no safe switchins with SR up (Zapdos dies most of the time). This coupled with your inablity to break the Swamperts, Milotics and Vaporeons you talked about means you really need a Water resist.

    Gliscor+Swampert walls you horribly too. Lack of a Sleep absorber/Natural Cure makes me worry about Gengar too.

    Shaymin/Celebi easily breaks all of your water problem Pokemon, but that is just asking for more Salamence ownage. However with your resists you might be able to work around this. Not sure where to fit this in though.
  3. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Well you mentioned that in today's metagame you just can't keep up that offense you could so early in the D/P Generation. Hopefully, with my help we can update this so you can whore that first spot on the ladder once again!

    Choice Scarf Zapdos was fun, but I honestly believe Roost and a Bold nature would be much more benificial to the team than this. Stability? Why not. I mean ScarfChomp is nowhere to be seen.

    Replace Tyranitar's Naughty nature with Quiet. It's alot better than sacraficing Special Defense and increasing Attack. Dark Pulse would be much better on the set because physical Crunch hits Celebi and Cressilia hard, but they're defensively orientated so Dark Pulse would hit them harder anyway. Gyro Ball from Bronzong won't always break your Substitute because you're reducing your Speed, which is cool for taking Bronzong out. The spread woud have a better effect in general. (Standard Boah EVs from R/S/E).

    I would consider taking out Forretress in place of something that can tackle Mamoswine. Bronzong is an option, but you already have a Stealth Rock user. Hidden Power [Electric], Gyro Ball, Hypnosis and filler would be fun. This is a little extra insurance should Zapdos fall to Gyarados' Stone Edge with the Stealth Rock support.

    This isn't a great rate but I will get back to you tommorow as promised. Mostly with the EVs for Zapdos and Bronzong (should you add it).
  4. bmbownz

    bmbownz

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    Messages:
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    since you haven't been around in a while, you may want to know that Mamoswine is one of the newer threats around here. boasting stabbed Ice shard, that bad boy could do a number on most of your team, in combo with stab Earthquake, and Blizzard on the mixed sets to take down your Gliscor. just a thought. I would work in a Bronzong, as it resist everything Mamo carries (use Levitate ability) and can hit him right back with super effective Gyro Ball

    EDIT: lol didnt read what Taylor wrote before typed mine. reinforcing the point I guess? =]
  5. Loras

    Loras

    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    Messages:
    19
    I'm not very good at Pokemon, so I can't give you much tips on that, but I am good at math and I can help you with that. Your Gliscor's EV spread and nature are not efficient.

    Here's your Gliscor's stats with 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spd and the Careful Nature (your build) with no EVs left over:

    HP: 354
    Atk: 226
    Def: 349
    Spe: 227
    SpA: 113
    SpD: 204

    The problem with this build is that Gliscor's base SpD is low compared to his Defense. Careful's 10% boost in SpD gives you less SpD than a +defense nature would give you Defense because of this.

    Here's a Gliscor with 252 HP/128 Def/72 SpD/4 Spe and the Impish Nature (+def, -SpA) with 42 EVs left over:

    HP: 354
    Atk: 226
    Def: 349
    Spe: 227
    SpA: 113
    SpD: 204

    It is most efficient to use natures that boost your highest stat. Of course, this isn't always the best option for your pokemon. For example, take Gengar. His SpA is 130 and his Spe is 110 so you would get a boost of 52 EVs from a +SpA nature and 44 EVs from a +Spe nature. However, because of the limit of the maximum amount of EVs you can have in a stat, you may want to take a +Spe nature anyways.

    Hope this helps.
  6. junior

    junior heard ur boyf was away this weekend, wanna meet at my place
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    Hey what no I'm not rating this! >:[

    Eh, first thing first, do you really need 3 Choiced pokemons? They really limit your versatility which is what you really need in this metagame, as Wobbufets are running loose. Simple prediction can beat this team too easily. Consider replacing ScarfChomp for YacheChomp or something similar for mid-late game sweep. Versatility on Garchomp is what makes it deadly now, not the Scarf. Garchomp can still maintain its ability to sweep mid-late game but while being more ferocious.

    Tyranitar wants its defenses so the best nature you can give it, as Taylor said, is Quiet.

    On Zapdos, I would suggest Extrasensory to KO the common lead Gengars. If I recall correctly, Thunderbolt isn't a guarentee KO and its always nice to have coverage and the ability to take out one worry away from your team. I would suggest it over Thunderwave or U-turn, although U-turn is better for scouting.

    On the whole, SpecsTran is something you should definitely look out for. Fire Blast can take out 2/3 of your team easily and while HP Ice takes down Garchomp. Your only one remaining is TTar but it too falls to Earthpower, negative special defensive nature or not.

    Actually, you're weak to anything that has Specs or Nasty Plot in general. You need a solid special wall, like Blissey or Restalk Heatran. Consider these sets:

    Blissey @ Leftovers
    Nature: Bold
    EVs: 148 HP, 252 Def, 108 SpD
    ~ Ice Beam
    ~ Softboiled
    ~ Seismic Toss
    ~ Thunderwave/Toxic/Sing


    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Nature: Calm
    EVs: 252 HP, 128 SpA, 136 SpD
    ~ Lava Plume
    ~ Earthpower
    ~ Rest
    ~ Sleep Talk

    With the Special Defense EVs, you can survive a Heatran's Earthpower and KO it back with your own, assuming their's isn't a defensive Tranny too.

    I have to go now so I'll look at it again later.

    Laters jrrrrrrrrrr
  7. OGsloane

    OGsloane

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    306
    I dont know how helpful this'll be but i've used a
    tyranitar @ icicle plate
    128 atk/ 128 sp atk/ 252 spd
    Naughty/Lonely
    Ice beam
    Earthquake
    Stone Edge
    Its easy to use it to trick people into a gliscor switch and then ice beam it as far as my experiences go its been a OHKO. I've tried this on shoddy and in the console game with success in both. If you can get even two dragon dances in it can beat so much stuff, the problem is it relies on some prediction which you previously stated you dont do alot of.
  8. gec

    gec i've been crawling through the falling
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    I think you need some Special Defence EVs on Gliscor. Though it may not be worth the investment since you need quite a bit of Special Defence.

    You see, a Neutral natured (I'm guessing people who use HP Ice on SDLuke use Lonely/Naughty), Life orb Hidden Power [Ice] does 98.59% - 116.10% to a 252 HP/0 Sp.Def, Positive natured (careful) Gliscor. You have a very slim chance of survival. So with something like 136 Sp.Def EVs + Careful, you only take 83.62% - 98.31% from that HP Ice now. It may be too much of an investment but it's up to you really.
  9. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Here are the EVs I promised:

    Bronzong @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/48 Atk/128 Def/80 SAtk
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Hypnosis
    - Gyro Ball
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Earthquake / Explosion / Stealth Rock

    I would lead with this if you're going to add Stealth Rock, which would allow room for Gliscor to try something different; U-turn, Aerial Ace, Toxic or Swords Dance (it would need more Speed with Swords Dance). Hidden Power [Electric] is a sure 2HKO with Stealth Rock (why I believe this should lead and set up SR). I recommend 3 IVs in Speed and 30 IVs in Special Attack for the Hidden Power and the extra IVs to outspeed opposing Bronzong.

    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/180 Def/32 Spd/44 SDef
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Roost
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Light Screen

    Use 10 IVs in Attack and 30 IVs in Defense for a legit Hidden Power [Ice] with a Bold nature. I wanted to spread the EVs out more for durability, so I thought you won't need maximum Defense. Althought outspeeding Jolly Tyranitar is nothing more than a nescessity these days, as it's a 5HKO to the standard Tyranitar since its recent Special Defense boost in Sand Stream caused major problems for Zapdos to 3HKO. Light Screen's position is optional and I wouldn't doubt anything else there; Toxic, Thunder Wave, Sleep Talk, Rest + Sleep Talk > Roost + Light Screen. I guess the most efficient way is to test it out yourself.

    As for Gliscor, I really would get rid of the Careful nature. It's not an effective spread at all and I highly recommend Impish, or even a Jolly nature if you want to try out the Swords Dance set (should you add Bronzong over Forretress with Stealth Rock on the set). But the standard Blissey / Cressilia's Ice Beam won't be hitting you for a OHKO if you invest in a slight ammount of Special Defense EVs. And it can effectively Roost the damage off taking no more than 48% of damage. If you used the Swords Dance set, then try out these EVs:

    Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 116 HP/136 Atk/40 Def/216 Spd/
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang
    - Roost
    - Swords Dance

    Or you can scrap the HP (320 was for Leftovers) and Defense for more Attack, and finally replacing Leftovers with Brightpowder. This outspeeds Lucario regardless, so don't get hit by Hidden Power [Ice] and you're sound...because they won't switch out Lucario if they have Hideen Power [Ice], allowing you to OHKO them first. Play with it.
  10. astrohawke

    astrohawke

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    587
    Ugh...I hate how nowadays everyone is like you have mamoswine weak unless you put bronzong in your team. Personally I'm not a fan of either bronzong or forretress because in my opinion, walls that can't heal themselves are pretty meh when it comes to taking hits. But if you had to go with one, then bronzong over forry would serve your team better.

    Junior is right about something though. Too many choice item users on one team. A weird choice considering you say you almost never predict. CS zapdos should be changed to a bulky variant for sure but I'd be more inclined towards the special side because bronzong and gliscor are already walling physical hits for you fairly well. Not to mention you lack something to take special hits. If you EV it right I think it can handle some hard special hitters like mence and heatran well. Though I'm too tired to check now so you can check for yourself if it's suitable. But pressure is always awesome against the likes of draco meteor and fire blast.

    Finally, I'm not against the use of scarfchomp at all. I say use it. If it's not used as much anymore, then good, people are less likely to expect it. From my experience, given a reasonably stallish team that's been played well, scarfchomp can still very easily clean up late game. You need a good revenge killer anyway and scarfchomp is still as good as any. Most people just don't know how to play it right. They send it out too early and start outraging like idiots only to get it walled by steels or ice sharded. As long as you maintain your strat of keeping it til the end or until you've scouted your opponent fully, it works very well.
  11. bmbownz

    bmbownz

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    nice suggestions, I always say bronzong should be on everyones team
  12. IggyBot

    IggyBot !battle
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    I promised, so here we go. I haven't really rated a team in a while, so hopefully this is good enough to keep up with Taylor, Junior and Gorm.

    I really don't see a need for Choice Scarf Zapdos anymore. Deoxys-E is already covered thanks to your Jolly Scarf Garchomp, so Zapdos isn't really nesecary. Changing to something a little bulkier would be helpful I think. If you wanted to do something different, you could also try something like 252 SpA / 36 Speed / 222 HP (or defense). Though a normal bulky Zapdos works great as well.

    Calm Zapdos will give you a good Mix Infernape counter, considering right now, it rips through 4 members of your team, and Garchomp can't always switch in because of the threat of HP Ice.

    A lot of stuff has already been said, so I'm not going to repeat it.

    From a personaly standpoint, I really don't like TyraniBoah in the current metagame. CB Tyranitar on it's own wrecks havoc. You can use Adamant max attack, or a Careful CB with lots of SpDef to absorb hits from Gengar and Starmie easily, while OHKOing with Pursuit, regardless of what they do. You could also change to Mixtar, which is also very deadly. Using a combination of 168 Attack / 96 SpA with a Brave nature ensures you OHKO Skarmory with Fire Blast assuming Stealth Rock is up, 2HKO Hippowdon with Ice Beam, OHKO Gliscor, OHKO Forretress, 2HKO Cresselia and Celebi with Crunch, and OHKO Heatran with Earthquake. You also retain your bulkiness considering you still have 246 EVs left that can be invested into HP / SpDef to take hits reasonably well. You will also be running an Expert Belt. Overall, here is the set:

    Tyranitar @ Expert Belt
    Brave
    Sandstream
    108 HP / 168 Attack / 96 SpAtk / 136 SpDef
    -Crunch
    -Earthquake
    -Fire Blast
    -Ice Beam

    If you want to outspeed Skarmory, you can also change to a Lonely nature, and change your spread to 32 HP / 168 Atk / 96 SpA / 136 SpDef / 76 Speed. To be completely honest, there is probably a better combination of HP/SpDef for the EVs, but what I suggested has been working fine for me so far.

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