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Forretress (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by zdrup15, Jul 1, 2011.

  1. zdrup15

    zdrup15
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    [​IMG]
    Pokedex Page

    Credit to Windsong for getting this past QC stage

    [Overview]

    <p>Forretress has been known throughout each generation as one of the greatest entry hazard setters available in standard play. This is not without reason, as it has solid 75 / 140 / 60 defenses, and a movepool shared only with Smeargle, including every type of entry hazard and Rapid Spin. In addition, Forretress finds plenty of opportunities to set up in the current metagame, with a lot of hugely useful resistances thanks to its Steel typing, and only one weakness. This makes Forretress a solid Spiker for many styles of play.</p>

    <p>However, Forretress faces stiff competition from a newcomer: Ferrothorn, who has significantly more special bulk, a better set of resistances, and Leech Seed to make up for the lack of recovery. However, Forretress does find a niche to set it apart from Ferrothorn in the ability to lay Toxic Spikes and spin entry hazards.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Toxic Spikes
    move 2: Spikes
    move 3: Rapid Spin
    move 4: Earthquake / Volt Switch / Gyro Ball
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Physically defensive Forretress is capable of setting up and spinning away entry hazards against a myriad of neutral and resisted physical moves, including Outrage, and choiced Steel-type attacks. Toxic Spikes and Spikes are the two entry hazards of choice due to the wider distribution of Stealth Rock, and are both highly effective thanks to the high number of grounded threats in the metagame. Rapid Spin completes Forretress's trio of supporting moves, spinning away all opposing entry hazards. Earthquake can be used on the last slot, hitting some common Forretress switch-ins, such as Magnezone and Heatran, as well as other grounded Fire-types, for heavy damage. Gyro Ball allows Forretress to hit switch-ins such as Hydreigon and Landorus for reasonable damage, and finally, Volt Switch allows Forretress to escape trappers and gain momentum for its team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress's EV spread allows it to get the most out of its naturally solid defenses, giving it a significant amount of physical bulk. This allows Forretress to take on a wide variety of physical attacks, while the Special Defense helps in taking weaker special attacks. An alternate spread of 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 Def is also viable if one chooses Earthquake for the last slot, netting an OHKO on opposing Heatran and Magnezone after Stealth Rock damage. However, Air Balloon Heatran will still be able to switch in safely on Forretress, even if Earthquake is being used. In addition, if one of the listed entry hazards is unneeded, a second attacking move can replace it to complement Forretress's type coverage. However, Forretress's main goal is usually to set up hazards rather than to attack directly. Finally, Shed Shell is a good alternative to Leftovers due to the prevalence of trappers such as Magnezone, whereas the latter grants Forretress significantly more staying power.</p>

    <p>Because Forretress's limited attacking options are rather weak, it's set-up fodder for many Pokemon. Kingdra, Gyarados, and bulkier Salamence are all capable of coming in against Forretress thanks to their natural bulk and, in the case of Salamence and Gyarados, Intimidate it, allowing them to set up easily. Also, the attacking move Forretress is running will determine which Pokemon can set up on it. Without Gyro Ball, for instance, Terrakion and Landorus, as well as other sweepers immune to Ground-type attacks, can set up on Forretress with ease. If Forretress lacks Earthquake, then Nasty Plot and Swords Dance Lucario, as well as Magnezone, other grounded Steel-types, and assorted Fire-types have a field day against it. Finally, Heatran, Chandelure, and essentially anything with a Fire-type attack is capable of either KOing or knocking a tremendous dent in Forretress. In general, anything with a strong special STAB attack is capable of tearing out a massive chunk of Forretress's HP.</p>

    <p>Forretress pairs well with Pokemon that can handle its crippling Fire weakness, as well as take hits from all the special attackers that plague it. Tyranitar can deal with Heatran, Chandelure, and Magnezone, and easily switch in on special attacks due to sandstorm increasing its Special Defense. It can also eliminate spinblockers and Magic Bounce Pokemon, allowing Forretress to spin and set up entry hazards more easily. Jellicent and Vaporeon are also great teammates as the former is one of the best spinblockers in OU and the latter can pass Wish to Forretress to make up for its lack of reliable recovery. Defensive Gyarados also pairs well with Forretress, eliminating some troubling sweepers that set up on it, such as Swords Dance Lucario. Finally, Blissey and Chansey can take hits from special attackers such as Heatran, pairing with Forretress to form a pseudo-SkarmBliss combination, walling a huge number of threats.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Toxic Spikes
    move 3: Rapid Spin
    move 4: Earthquake / Volt Switch / Gyro Ball
    item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
    ability: Sturdy
    nature: Sassy / Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress is capable of switching in on a huge number of common attacks. It can then proceed to set up or spin opposing hazards away. The difference is that this set sacrifices a bit of physical bulk for the ability to switch in against more powerful special attacks, such as the common choice-locked Draco Meteor. The entry hazards and Rapid Spin form the crux of the set, allowing Forretress to function as a solid support Pokemon throughout the game. Forretress has a couple of options for its final moveslot: Earthquake allows Forretress to put a solid dent in the common Steel- and Fire-types, and can let it beat common trappers such as Magnezone by abusing Sturdy; Volt Switch is another option, letting Forretress set the momentum of the battle in its user's favor by pivoting out of switch-ins and trappers; Gyro Ball can hit some common switch-ins, such as Latios and Latias, for reasonable damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread offers Forretress maximum special bulk, allowing it to switch into a wide array of special attacks. This lets Forretress safely set up against a variety of common Pokemon, such as bulky Water-types, as well as weak special attackers in general. Finally, specially defensive Forretress can afford to take an unSTABed Fire attack if necessary, making it less vulnerable to a large portion of the metagame. Leftovers is arguably the superior item on this set, as it lets Forretress abuse Sturdy with greater ease, and more importantly, turns several 3HKOs—from the likes of bulky Water-types and other common Pokemon not investing in Special Attack—into 4HKOs. However, Shed Shell is still an option if you are overly concerned with being trapped by Magnezone. Finally, Pain Split is usable, as its semi-reliable recovery gives Forretress a nice edge over Ferrothorn and other Spikers.</p>

    <p>Sadly, even with the tremendous investment in Special Defense, anything with a STABed Fire move is capable of ripping massive chunks out of Forretress's HP. This means that common Fire-types, such as Heatran and Darmanitan, are all capable of demolishing Forretress. Also, due to the lack of Attack investment, most sweepers can use Forretress as set-up fodder.</p>

    <p>Taking into account the aforementioned weaknesses, there are some teammates that should be considered for this set. Since Forretress's main goal is to set up entry hazards, Jellicent and Dusclops are good teammates as they have a good synergy with it and can make sure the hazards aren't spun away. Vaporeon and Chansey / Blissey also pair very well with Forretress thanks to their good special bulk and the ability to pass giant Wishes. Finally, Tyranitar is also a good partner for the bagworm: it can switch into most special attackers, eliminate the problematic Magic Bounce Pokemon, and, as a bonus, sets up sandstorm, which, when added to the entry hazard damage, means the opponent's Pokemon will die much faster.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Though Forretress's movepool is by no means diverse, it certainly has a couple of options that can be used if necessary. Gyro Ball, when combined with Macho Brace, has 100 Base Power against anything with 198 Speed or more, which is a significant portion of this fast-paced metagame. However, this is normally pulled off more effectively by Ferrothorn, who has a lower base Speed and better dual STABs. In addition, if avoiding becoming set-up fodder is more important than getting up as many layers as possible, then Explosion is a reasonable alternative over any of the sets' attacking moves. However, due to its reduction in power, it is in general not very useful.</p>

    <p>In terms of supporting options, Forretress receives both Light Screen and Reflect. While these moves are undoubtedly useful, it's normally better to leave dual screening to slightly bulkier Pokemon with better resistances, or Pokemon that aren't complete set-up bait. In addition, Forretress once again suffers from the four moveslot syndrome, as it can't use both screens and two entry hazards without forgoing an attacking move, allowing Taunt to completely shut it down. Forretress also has a couple of recovery options between Rest and Pain Split and, while neither of them is reliable, they are both somewhat viable choices if Forretress is being used without Wish support. However, Rest should always be used with either Aromatherapy or Heal Bell support.</p>

    <p>Because Forretress's base HP is very low, the first step when attempting to create an EV spread for it should always be to maximize HP. From there, the remaining EVs should be split between its defenses, or Attack when trying to KO specific Pokemon.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Due to Forretress's rather lackluster attacking options, a wide range of Pokemon are capable of countering it. Fire-types, such as Heatran, are capable of switching into any move Forretress has when holding an Air Balloon and can either obliterate it with their STAB Fire moves or use it as set-up fodder. Air Balloon Magnezone can also come in on any of Forretress's moves, trapping and KOing it. In addition, Ghost-types prevent Forretress from spinning away hazards, and many of them, such as Chandelure (though it's not primarily used as a spinblocker), Jellicent, and Gengar are all capable of putting a dent into or even OHKOing Forretress if it lacks investment in Special Defense.</p>

    <p>Also, Forretress is very easy to set up on depending on what its moveset is. Lucario doesn't fear Forretress when it's holding an Air Balloon or if the latter lacks Earthquake. Conkeldurr can come in on a wide variety of Forretress's moves and proceed to set up with Bulk Up, and Excadrill can set up on Forretress lacking Earthquake. In addition, if Forretress doesn't have Gyro Ball, then Landorus, Virizion, and Haxorus can all switch in and start to wreak havoc. Finally, Pokemon with reasonable natural bulk or Intimidate, such as Gyarados and Salamence, can switch in on most of Forretress's moves and proceed to set up.</p>

    <p>Forretress is also easily lured in, as its only real way to set entry hazards up is against Pokemon that are incapable of hurting it much. It has to take those opportunities to set up, so lures such as Expert Belt Tyranitar and Metagross, with Flamethrower and Hidden Power Fire, respectively, can easily remove Forretress. In addition, since Forretress commonly serves as a defensive pivot, as well as a Spiker on full stall, it's relatively easy to predict around. Finally, both Xatu and Espeon have Magic Bounce and can immediately force Forretress to switch.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Forretress doesn't really get much from the Dream World. Its new ability, Overcoat, lets it avoid damage from weather, which is rather useless when Hail, the only weather that damages Forretress, is so uncommon. However, Custap Berry can be used to make Forretress a viable lead, as when combined with Sturdy, it gives Forretress the ability to set up at least two layers of entry hazards against anything lacking Taunt or a priority move.</p>
  2. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    Custap Berry.........9.9
  3. zdrup15

    zdrup15
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    First of all, barry sucks.

    Then, that's the Dream World section.

    Finally, read the status: I haven't updated that part yet.
  4. Mikewando

    Mikewando

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    On the specially defensive set wouldn't it be better to recommend Sassy/Relaxed instead of Careful/Impish? Otherwise you're hurting Volt Switch by lowering Forretress's already low SpA.

    Also Speed IV should be 0 for physically defensive too, no?
  5. BattleStar

    BattleStar

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    I use this set
    Forretress
    1.Toxic Spikes
    2.Stealth Rocks
    3.Light Screen
    4. Counter
    252 EVs, 152 SpeD, 100 Def
    Careful
    Item: Rocky Helmet

    This set is very useful. It catches a lot of people on surprise. Losing Forretress is no big problem. Provides great support and great SpeD for my team
  6. Sir Azelf

    Sir Azelf

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    Ive been using Forretress ALOT lately and i feel both Spikes and spin for it are way too much this gen and it hardly has a chance to do this. I feel its optimal doing its thing when you decide on what sort of Spikes you want and using two attack moves of choice. Having one attack option is really not too great especially a lone un stabbed EQ/Volt switch. This leaves you stuck against so much stuff.

    - Gyro Ball
    - Spikes / Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch / Earthquake / Payback

    Gyro Ball or you are sucking hardcore against things you are meant to check and can check such as Haxorus, RP Landorus etc. Its also extremely useful against any faster sweeper generally (and offensive teams who block Spin with Gengar lol). Spin is obligatory and then you choose which Spikes you want. Last slot is up to you. Volt Switch lets you wear down ghosts with hazards and also escape zone obvs. EQ hits steels i guess. Payback is still a decent option as you can actually beat CM no HP Fire Latias as you cant 2hko with Gyro so maybe its more worth more merit on the sp.def set ?

    You could also mention in team options how Volt Switch + Hazards really put opposing teams under pressure looking to block Forrys spin as it wears down ghosts, so getting something to pressure the ghost is an awesome way to capitalize on Volt Switch. Pursuit would be at the top of the list. =P Dunno if its too important but yeah, definitely effective.

    Gonna second this too.
  7. giggity69

    giggity69

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    I disagree. Forre's niche is being able to do both at the same time, and you don't really have to go for max layers of everything. If you don't need t-spikes, don't lay them, if you don't need spikes, don't lay them; forre is cool because he gives you the option to lay whatever is necessary at the time. Also, in my experience, forre doesn't really need to spin every match unless you are supporting something 4x SR weak or something, so he isn't under too much pressure so long as you don't intend on getting 5 layers and a spin every match.
  8. zdrup15

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    Ok, this is now ready to be GP checked!
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Unsurprisingly, since this has already been checked 3 times in effect (one of them was me but I didn't realise this until I after I did this) there is very little wrong. I would question that it needs another.
  10. zdrup15

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    Thanks jc104. I've implemented the changes.

    The thing is I included the Team Options info in both AC sections and that's why I'd like to see this rechecked.
  11. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    I wouldn't have thought that this needed completely re-checking when only a couple of parts have been partially re-written

    If it will set your mind at rest, you could highlight the parts that you changed/rewrote, and then I can check them and give this a final stamp or something
  12. zdrup15

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    Ok then I guess the only parts that could use a last check are both Additional Comments sections.
  13. Bugbot

    Bugbot

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    Second set should have 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD instead, but that's about it !
  14. zdrup15

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    fixed, thanks!
  15. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    Amateur GP check:

    First GP check! This took waaay longer than I thought... It's late, so I'll complete the Checks and Counters section (italicized) and proofread tomorrow.

    I hope that I'm not being too overzealous. Zdrup, please don't be offended by the huge number of changes.
  16. zdrup15

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    Ok, first of all, thanks for trying to help. Now to the check:

    • When you check something, the main thing you have to consider is: this is the OP's analysis, not yours. It's obvious the language won't be yours and you should only fix it if it's wrong, not if you don't like it
    • Then you should check this thread to see what Smogon accepts as standard (such as uncapitalized sweeper and X typing instead of X-typing)
    • You have to assume people will only read one set when writing the analysis (so information such as what each attack does should be present in each different set the attack is being listed)
    • Re-read your check after you finish it. You'll notice some errors, thus improving it (for example, if you had done it, you'd notice the [SET COMMENTS] section of the second set says almost nothing after your edits)
    • Finally, if you try your best, you don't have to apologize to the writer even if you had to fix typos in every single word

    Thanks for the check, you did find 2 mistakes and I fixed them. Also, take what I said into account and keep checking to improve your quality.

    Personal note: why don't you try to write an analysis from scratch? You're not a bad writer and it should be fun.
  17. bugmaniacbob

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    Well, that's that sorted

    and with that we're all wrapped up here

    [​IMG]
  18. November Blue

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    Really? Thanks! I thought that there were no analyses left? *runs off to check*
  19. zdrup15

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    Thanks everyone, this is now Done!
  20. Eo Ut Mortus

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    In the fourth slot, Gyro Ball should be the primary slash, in my opinion, followed by Volt Switch. Earthquake leaves Forretress vulnerable to several important Pokemon that it should probably be hitting, such as Lati@s, Virizion, and Gengar. Earthquake really only hits two Pokemon, one of which commonly carries Balloon (Heatran, so you'll have to hit it with spin on the switch-in). Three if you count Tentacruel, who will likely beat you under rain anyway. edit: From testing, I find Earthquake works much better as a secondary attack; I think it should be mentioned as an alternative to one of the entry hazards rather than its sole attacking move.

    I also want to suggest a mention of Hidden Power Ice in Set Comments (probably just for the physically defensive set) or Other Options. Despite appearing gimmicky at first sight, Hidden Power Ice is actually a pretty decent option, hitting Dragon-types (Dragonite / Salamence), Landorus, and (most importantly) Gliscor for reasonable damage. I've tested it and found it useful (I can provide logs if wanted); it warrants a mention at the very least.
  21. Banryu

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    ...really? Not a single solitary mention of Counter anywhere on the analysis? ...even though it has a built-in physical catchall in Sturdy? Come on, that last moveslot is just screaming for Counter. Gyro Ball I can understand, and Volt Switch is all right, but the ability to set up Spikes in a Bulking-up Conkeldurr's face and then Counter his Drain Punch when I'm done is just too good for me to pass up, personally. Even if you mispredict and Counter early, spamming Counter is usually enough to scare out physical sweepers and force them to lose their boosts. I have fairly extensive experience with Counter Forry and IMO, Counter is a much better option than Volt Switch or Earthquake in many instances.

    Also, I get that Forry's niche is the ability to set up 2/3 kinds of entry hazards, but I tend to have trouble even getting my Spikes fully laid before Forry gets scared out by some Fire-type user or other. I personally just use one hazard alongside Spin, an attack, and Counter. This Forry set has served me well (I used the same EVs as the analysis) :

    - Gyro Ball / Stealth Rock
    - Spikes / Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Counter / Volt Switch

    My preferred move is each first slash, but the hazards are pretty open-ended depending on what the team needs, as is Gyro Ball VS Stealth Rock. Really, I think this is closer to what the analysis set should look like... or maybe Counter merits its own, more specialized set? I dunno.

    Or heck, could always keep Counter off of the analysis. I sure don't mind having it as my secret weapon that everyone still seems to not expect.
  22. StallMandibuzz

    StallMandibuzz

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    Counter is good, except for if it was a special attacker using Flamethrower or Fire Blast on your Forretress. Then when you try to use Counter, it fails because it was a special attack, and you have a severely weakened Poke. Basically, don't use Counter if you're up against a special attacker! xD
  23. Braseg257

    Braseg257

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    I think Toxic spikes and Stealth rock together are the best choise because the rocks are super effective on a fire type pkmn and this combination causes many damages on flying types pkmn too, so in this way is possible to hit flying pkmn with fire blast or flamethrower such as Dragonite, Salamence, Moltres or Togekiss and then switch Forretress in a pkmn with Flash fire or in a water type pkmn. A support with Light screen is also a good idea.
  24. Fatecrashers

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