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Forretress (BW2 Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/3]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Doughboy, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    [​IMG]
    What a Baller
    Forretress

    [Overview]

    <p>When one thinks of Forretress, one word springs to mind: utility. Forretress's role in OU is defined by its use of the semi-exclusive Rapid Spin to clear entry hazards from the field. With Rapid Spin, it extends the longevity of a wide range of Pokemon such as Dragonite and Thundurus-T. The use of Rapid Spin also acts as a line of defense against teams that heavily rely on residual damage from entry hazards. In addition, Forretress occupies a unique niche among Rapid Spin users in that it has access to all three entry hazards. This makes Forretress flexible; it can allow your Pokemon to sweep or to stall. Perhaps what sets Forretress furthest apart from other spinners is its Steel typing and high Defense, making it one of the best Pokemon to tank the powerful Outrages and other physical moves thrown around in the OU tier.</p>

    <p>Forretress is not without its severe disappointments. While it is the spinner that can fill the most roles on a team, it is also the easiest to spinblock. Forretress's lack of powerful offensive moves outside of Gyro Ball means OU's premier spinblockers&mdash;Jellicent and Sableye&mdash;will have no problem coming in and tanking (if you can even call it that) a hit to block Rapid Spin. While Forretress can do little back, Jellicent and Sableye will be more than happy to cripple it with Will-O-Wisp, while Gengar can wreck it with a powerful special move. The same lack of offensive presence means Forretress is setup bait for the numerous sweepers in OU. Thus, a solid plan for dealing with setup sweepers is necessary when running Forretress. Lastly, Forretress lacks any means of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers, so it is very prone to being worn down by the hazards it is designated to remove and the hits it is designated to tank. Altogether, Forretress's support can open many doors for your team, but without a solid plan for dealing with setup sweepers or spinblockers, your team itself might be opened.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rapid Spin
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes / Stealth Rock
    move 3: Volt Switch
    move 4: Gyro Ball / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sturdy
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress's placement on a team should be for one reason alone: Rapid Spin. Without Rapid Spin, other Steel-types such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory are superior choices. Forretress's secondary function outside of Rapid Spinning is to tank hits, especially physical ones, for its teammates. With maximum Defense investment, Forretress becomes a handy tool to take the powerful Outrages thrown by Dragons and easily spins against opposing Pokemon that rely on weaker physical moves.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin with an accompanying hazard of choice will allow Forretress to support its teammates whether it is in the endeavor of sweeping or stalling. Spikes is the more exclusive of the two entry hazards listed and is more effective in wearing down the spinblockers Forretress has to combat. However, if your team is lacking a Stealth Rock user, Stealth Rock can be used instead of Spikes. Volt Switch is perhaps the best attacking move in Forretress's arsenal; not only can it be used to escape Magnezone, but it can also be used to act as a pivot for your team. Forretress is the slowest user of Volt Switch in the game, so it can effectively tank a hit for a teammate and switch out with Volt Switch to make sure your frailer, but more offensively inclined, Pokemon can come in safely. In the last slot, Forretress can run one move to prevent becoming setup bait for certain Pokemon. Forretress's low Speed and Steel typing makes Gyro Ball its most powerful move. On the other hand, Hidden Power Ice is more effective in taking on Gliscor and Dragon-types 4x weak to Ice. However, it is a very weak move and generally misses out on Terrakion and Tyranitar in terms of coverage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Relaxed nature and 0 Speed IVs give the most powerful Gyro Ball possible and the slowest Volt Switch possible, which enables Forretress to get a safe switch-in for another Pokemon when facing a variety of targets. If you are using Hidden Power Ice, you should use 44 Special Attack EVs with a Bold nature to 2HKO 200 HP Landorus-T after Leftovers. Another alternative EV spread has 144 Attack EVs, which can be used to OHKO Terrakion after two switches into Stealth Rock and to OHKO minimum HP Magnezone and Heatran with Earthquake. However, using 144 Attack EVs compromises so much on bulk that it's not worth using. As for other alternative moves, Toxic Spikes can be used over an attacking move or a hazard. By having two hazards on Forretress, one can choose the hazard in a battle that most appropriately fits the situation (i.e. Spikes or Toxic Spikes.) It should be noted, however, that Toxic Spikes has very limited use in OU, more so than in other tiers. For example, Sun teams often carry Venusaur while rain teams carry Tentacruel or Toxicroack. 27 Pokemon in OU are not affected by Toxic Spikes (29 if counting the benefits gained by Conkeldurr and Breloom with their appropriate abilities), so in many battles, they will find little use at all. Additionally, running an extra hazard over a move will compromise Forretress's ability to spin well and can make it more likely to become setup bait. Earthquake can be used over an attacking move to prevent Jirachi or Lucario from setting up on you. Earthquake also does heavy damage to Heatran and Forretress, who would otherwise switch in freely. Pain Split lets Forretress have a semi-reliable means of recovery and mitigates the need for a Wish passer. In addition, Pain Split allows Forretress to beat Ferrothorn one-on-one, whereas otherwise Ferrothorn could win and prevent Rapid Spin with a combination of Leech Seed and Iron Barbs. In the item slot, Custap Berry can be used instead of Leftovers so Forretress can hang on with Sturdy and effectively pull off a priority Rapid Spin or a hazard of choice.</p>

    <p>When selecting teammates for Forretress, its tendency to become setup bait, susceptibility to spinblockers, and lack of reliable recovery should be kept in mind. Pokemon with the ability Intimidate, such as Gyarados, Salamence, and Landorus-T, are good partners because they mitigate the initial boosts of Pokemon attempting to boost their attack against Forretress. Choice Scarf users and priority users are also good teammates, because if a Pokemon sets up on Forretress while Forretress Volt Switches out, they can proceed to KO even boosted threats. Phazers also do well to prevent boosted threats from making an impact on your team if they set up on Forretress. Pokemon with powerful Pursuits make great teammates since they can remove the spinblockers that Forretress has a lot of trouble with. Tyranitar is the best because it can cover Forretress's nasty Fire-type weakness and provide Sandstorm for additional residual damage. Wish passers are great assets to Forretress because they prevent it from being worn down by the physical attackers it is supposed to tank and the hazards it is supposed to remove. Vaporeon and Chansey get the nod over other Wish passers due to their large HP stats and their ability to take special moves that might otherwise overwhelm Forretress.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Forretress can run a specially defensive spread in order to better sponge special attacks, particularly those from Dragon-types and Gengar. However, when considering that Forretress takes over 50% from Latios's Specs Draco Meteor (non-choice special dragons often carry a move to cripple Forretress ) and that bulky Water-types can now burn Forretress with Scald, the niche that Specially Defensive Forretress had is now lost. Forretress can also run a multitude of different items effectively. Forretress can be used as a lead with Mental Herb to make it impossible to Taunt or OHKO; meanwhile, it can set up both Spikes and Stealth Rock while stopping opposing suicide leads with Rapid Spin. Red Card can be used with Sturdy to prevent Forretress from becoming setup bait, and it gives you the freedom to set up as many hazards as you want while the opponent uselessly sets up. Lastly, Shed Shell can be used to prevent either Magnezone or Gothitelle from trapping you. Note that with Volt Switch and proper prediction, Forretress can prevent trapping from occurring.</p>

    <p>Forretress can play around with either its hazards or attacking options and run a couple of other moves. Explosion can be used as a last ditch effort to prevent a Pokemon from setting up and to get a teammate in unscathed. However, the power nerf to Explosion this generation makes it an unappealing option. Toxic can be used to spread status and to cripple Sableye and Jellicent who might try to spinblock Forretress.</p>


    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Jellicent, Sableye, and Gengar deserve a special place among Forretress counters because they block Rapid Spin, which is Forretress's primary purpose. It should be noted that Gengar will take hefty damage from Forretress's Gyro Ball if you predict the Gengar switch-in correctly. Heatran can come in on most of Forretress's moves and wipe it off the face of the earth with its Fire-type STAB. Other Fire-types such as Volcarona and Infernape can do the same. Gothitelle and Magnezone can trap Forretress and prey on its 4x Fire weakness to OHKO with HP Fire. Gothitelle can also Trick Forretress to lock it into a move where he is extremely easy to set up on. However, Forretress with Volt Switch have a chance to escape if the trappers do not immediately use HP Fire. Ferrothorn can come in on Forretress and proceed to set up hazards of its own, baiting Forretress to spin them. In the long run, Ferrothorn will beat Forretress one-on-one with a combination of Iron Barbs and Leech Seed should the Forretress not carry Pain Split. Donphan takes little from Hidden Power Ice or Gyro Ball and can spin away all of its hazards while slowly chipping at its health with Earthquake. Gliscor can set up a Swords Dance or Substitute on Forretress and eventually force it out with repeated Earthquakes if Forretress does not have Hidden Power Ice. It can also prevent hazard setup with the use of Taunt. Thundurus-T, Garchomp, Landorus, Jirachi, and Terrakion can all set up on Forretress quite easily if it lacks the proper moves to do significant damage to them. Lastly, with proper prediction, Xatu and Espeon can reflect the hazards Forretress sets up and hit back with a fatal Heat Wave or Hidden Power Fire.</p>
  2. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    I've seen quite a few of my peers run Earthquake purely so Magnezone doesn't get a free Substitute against Forretress, and it's also nice with Sturdy, so at worst, you may want to mention it in the AC for that. Also mention Shed Shell in either Other Options or the AC, and rename the set something other than "Physically Defensive," since there is no other alternative defensive set around (as far as you have now). Recommendation from me are "Rapid Spin" or "Hazard Control" (for a touch of creativity).
  3. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ᴜияᴇᴄᴏɢиɪsαβʟᴇ
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    If you're going to mention Xatu as a counter (which you should), you should group Espeon with Xatu, since both have Magic Bounce, which stops Forretress from getting its hazards up.
  4. dice

    dice practitioner of the city
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    Espeon takes hefty damage from a Gyro Ball meaning that it isn't a "counter" really. Plus, Espeon is rarely seen in OU.
  5. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I think you should mention Pokémon with Pursuit as great partners, since Forretress can use Volt Switch to lure them, and then, the Pokémon with Pursuit can checkmate them.

    Tyranitar is one of the best, since Forretress can use Volt Switch to switch to him safely (as some spinblockers can get arount Tyranitar, for example, Gengar can use Focus Blast, and Jellicent can use Will-O-Wisp). It can then checkmate both, with Crunch or Pursuit. Forretress will then, later on battle, be able to spin, if it gets the opportunity. Forretress can also check Terrakion, one of the biggest checks to Tyranitar, provided it carry Gyro Ball.

    Also, mention that if you are using HP Ice instead of Gyro Ball, you can not only use 31 Speed IVs, but can use 0 Attack IVs and a Bold natute. This mitigates confusion damage, although there are very few cases on which you would face a confusion-inducing move, and Tornadus-T leave a large dent on Forretress with Hurricane anyway (I didn't did the calculations to see if it's an OHKO). Still, you never know if you are going to face such situation, and as Rapid Spin is being used exclusively for its effect, it's not a big deal if you "do less damage" with it. Not to mention that Forretress can now outpace some things, like... Ferrothorn? Paralyzed Bronzong and Reuniclus? lol (anyway, if you aren't using Gyro Ball, it's not necessary to drop speed)

    I've thougth that people would see mono-hazard Forretress as silly, and as a waste of its potential. I actually used Forretress with Volt Switch AND Gyro Ball (and only one hazard, on my case, Stealth Rock). And I see it MUCH better than the two-hazards, one-attack Forretress. I didn't knew that other people thougth the same.
  6. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    You should definitely slash in Earthquake for the fourth slot, as it is quite useful against Magnezone. If you can keep Sturdy intact or outpredict your opponent, you can even do a hefty chunk to Heatran.
    Yeah, it definitely is.
  7. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    back when i was fiddling with EVs on pseudoboltbeam forry, i was using a similar benchmark; it guarantees a 2hko on certain dragons.... however for the life of me i can't remember which. i was concocting some other benchmarks but i forget em. in general iirc, you can 2hko basically any salamence under any reasonable circumstances, and 0/0 landorus (either forme) will also be taken out. you need a lot to 2hko gliscor without hazards (cause of poison heal). you'll never 2hko dnite without rocks (cause of scales) but with sr on the field you 2hko 0/0 dnite easily, and you can forget about damaging sdef-invested dnite at all. garchomp takes a non trivial amount of EVs to 2hko with or without rocks (more than 36 that's for sure)

    so i'd probably ditch the benchmark and just invest nothing
  8. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Toxic Spikes needs to be slashed somewhere. Also, a more balanced EV spread deserves a mention.. it's not always about who you can spike on.. it's about damage from Random special attacks. I haven't used Max Defense on Forretress in years and never regretted. His Ice / Ghost / Dark resists are actually pretty nifty.

    I run 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpDef, Impish at times. Forry is NOT a wall so why treat him like one? He is there to Spike and Spin! He get's some use on Sun as well, so let's not forget how that affects those Bulky Waters. I would mention Hidden Power Fire in AC as well. It works when Forry is on Sun to piss off Ferrothorn, Scizor, and other Forry wars.
  9. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    As of now, 27 Pokemon in the OU tier are not affected by Toxic Spikes. Increase this to 29 if you want to count the benefits taken by Conkeldurr and Poison Heal Breloom (granted both of these are not the most popular). If you take in the more popular Pokemon of the tier, the Top 20, 11/20 are not affected by Toxic Spikes. Compare this to the metagame of Ubers, where Toxic Spikes are particularly effective (and counting each arceus form as its own Pokemon) where there are more Pokemon that are hit by it. In addition, the offensive state of the metagame is not conducive to the use of Toxic Spikes as well. Against offense, it is optimal that only 1 layer be set up since the Pokemon will be staying in for 1-2 turns (especially choiced users). However, against high paced offensive teams Spikes is much more effective by giving you access to 25% damage for pokemon staying in for both 2 turns and 1 turn.

    Lastly, Sun and Rain surprisingly carry absorbers of Toxic Spikes. Tentacruel and Toxicrock are paired with Politoed about 20% of the time each. Meanwhile, Ninetales is paired with Venasaur 58% of the time! While Sand does not have absorbers other than Amoonguss (which has definitely increased since BW1) they do contain Pokemon, mostly Steel-types, that mitigate the effectiveness of Toxic Spikes.

    Overall Toxic Spikes usefullness is much more limited than SR or Spikes in this metagame, thus I do not recommend it for a slash and find it fitting to be in OO.

    I have found that Forretress finds itself spinning/setting up exclusively against targets with all physical moves. It is not about treating him as a wall, it is about minimizing damage as much as possible on the attacks he exclusively takes. A small amount of Sp. Def investment is viable and if you can find a benchmark for suitable investment I'll put it in.

    Ferrothorn, Scizor, and other Forretress are the least of suns issues. As a matter of fact many sun teams could find them all foils to become set up bait, which is where Volt Switch comes into play. You would be much better off running HP Ice for Dragons that actually trouble sun teams.
  10. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    This overall looks pretty solid, I just want to note a few things.

    First off, I know volt switch is the perferred option, but it can easily be tossed on teams that are not as reliant on momentum like stall teams. I think you should mention that if you do run other moves, run it over volt switch.

    Earthquake needs hefty attack investment to 1HKO Magnezone after rocks, a total of 124 evs, that needs to be mentioned.

    Be sure to give pain split a dam good OO description, I personally never run Forretress without it, with it Ferrothorn and Skarmory become complete set up bait for Forretress.

    I believe 36 special attack guarantees a 2HKO on Gliscor after poison healing, I always used 56 special attack though.
  11. RaikouLover

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    This argument frankly pisses me off to hell and back and it is analogous to why we use Double Dance Terrakion. Double Spike Forretress is a staple because you use whatever fits the situation. You will encounter teams that have 0-1 affected by Toxic Spikes and you will find teams with 3-4 affected by Toxic Spikes. Team Preview makes this even more effective as you can pick and choose what is best for the team at the time. Yes, Spikes are generally more useful, but there are some scenarios where they are beneficial. This is particularly true in the late game when you simply need to find a way to kill stubborn Jellicent or whatever annoying dude evaded you all match. Double Spike Forretress is completely viable and it's not like you are actually attacking with him by adding a second move. It's not like you are actually using Forretress on an offensive team of your own -__-
  12. Jukain

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    See, the thing is, Spikes are super beneficial every match. You want Spikes up every match. Toxic Spikes... you don't need every match. Forretress cannot find the time to set up both, ever. Thus, you pick the more useful one, Spikes. Or you use Stealth Rock if you need it. Plus, you need Volt Switch + 1 attack. Forretress needs that extra attack really badly.
  13. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I don't think Forry needs more than one attack. Usually if I predict a ghost coming in, I Volt Switch to something that can take it on. Double hazards has been extremely useful in my experiences.

    Regardless, Toxic Spikes deserves to be slashed somewhere. It's useful against many teams out there, and is something that differentiates it from Ferrothorn.

    I'd personally change the current moveset to something like this:

    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes
    move 3: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
    move 4: Volt Switch / Gyro Ball (AC: HP Ice, HP Fire, EQ)
  14. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I personally think that Forretress, in fact, needs more than one attack. Volt Switch + either Gyro Ball or HP Ice (or even Earthquake). This happened a lot of time with me: I could take out that Terrakion, if weren't for the fact that I din't had Gyro Ball, so either my team was swept, or I had to be lucky. At times where I slashed Gyro Ball, Magnezone could come on any time that it wanted to either use Forretress as setup bait, or to just kill him. Or I couldn't gain momentum against things like Jellicent or Gyarados.

    Forretress in fact, needs two attacks a lot of time to be a reliable spinner. Trust me.
  15. dice

    dice practitioner of the city
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    wait i thought 36 spa was for gliscor?
  16. alkinesthetase

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    you do like 50% minimum precisely though, so you're not gonna 2hko it cause of poison heal (unless SR is up in which case you almost always 2hko it with 0 satk anyway)

    in any case, the worst thing gliscor can really do to you is taunt you and delay your hazards for a few turns, so if it decides to stay in on HP ice forry, it'll eventually die regardless (0 satk hp ice is a solid 3hko)

    as for this two attacks vs two hazards business, i think it's an unreasonable generalization to say either one is always correct. more attacks generally makes it easier to spin and hit back against things that you wall, but more hazards lets you compress more roles into a single pokemon and eliminates the need to find them elsewhere on your team. neither one is always the right answer
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes / Stealth Rock
    move 3: Volt Switch
    move 4: Gyro Ball / Hidden Power Ice

    These should be the moves in the main set. Dual hazards Forretress is AC material as it will rarely get the time to use both, and most of the time Spikes are the hazard you should be setting up, unless you have no other SR user in your team. Also Forretress really needs two attacking moves to work properly. Volt Switch is a given so that Forretress can act as a pivot, ease prediction against Magnezone, and avoid being set-up bait and losing momentum in general. Then it needs either Gyro Ball or HP Ice to deal with Outraging dragons, which is one of its main jobs anyway. Dealing with Gliscor and Terrakion depending on the move is nice too, but not its main goal, but Forretress must be able to deal some damage back to Outraging dragons. T-Spikes, Pain Split, dual hazards, and EQ should all go to AC as they all have their uses. Pain Split allows Forretress to beat Ferrothorn 1 on 1 instead of slowly dying from Leech Seed and Iron Barb damage and in general gives it some much needed longevity, and the only reason that it shouldn't go in the main set is because all the other moves are so damn important.

    EDIT: Gothitelle and Tyranitar are also exceptional teammates for Forretress. They can kill any spinblocker (except from motherfucking Sabelye) that prevents Forretress from doing its job, and Forre can bring them in safely with Volt Switch.
  18. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Add Cutsap Berry to AC of the spiker set please (I told you this on irc but its not up). Personally, I think its worth a main set slash, but its early days (it was only released recently) so im willing to wait and see. Would be interested in other opinions of QC on this matter.
  19. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    How is Custap berry useful on Forretress?
    I mean it's not really OHKO'd by many attacks outside of Fire attacks and without Lefties you would need spin support to abuse sturdy if you are not using Forry in the lead spot where he doesn't seems to be too useful since Taunt/Magic Coat Deo-D shits all over him and so do most other lead pokes. I mean i get that you will get in Custap range sometimes even without sturdy but can you please give some examples how to effectively abuse it without getting too situational, because right now it feels pretty gimmicky to me and overall less useful than lefties wich can get you back into sturdy range even after switching into SR and provides at least a bit of recovery or Shed Shell.
  20. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    No one is reading what I posted... at all about "setting them both up." You don't want Stealth Rock + Spikes, but Spikes + Toxic Spikes effectiveness has to do with the other team. The truth is that Forry is only used on defensively orientated teams, so there are some situations where Toxic Spikes really help them stall out things like Mamoswine and Garchomp that can be more useful. It's for versatility, not for "more hazards"

    Volt Switch is not as good as people are making it seem. Yeah, you can escape Magnezone AFTER it Hidden Power Fires you.. (what's the point?). You are still set up bait for everything Volt Switch doesn't change that at all because of how piss-weak it is. If you really need to "predict" Magnezone just double switch it.... As for Outraging dragons, Gyro Ball alone handles them fine. However, most of the time it is Forry's BEST chance to spin for the team.

    I just really don't see all the utility that Volt Switch provides that's worth not having another hazard option. Forry is a piece of shit as a pivot, especially with the Max / Max EV spread given. His resistances are mostly special based other than Outrage, so "pivot" is contradictory.
  21. Jukain

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    Volt Switch is really cool because you can do shit like get off some damage on Cloyster and switch to something that can handle it better. Also, you can maintain momentum with it. The main thing is that is makes Forretress not total setup fodder.
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Man we get your point, but you don't get ours. T-Spikes will very rarely be more useful than Spikes, and this is the reason that the move deserves to be in AC. In most of the games you will want to set up Spikes first, and you will only have the time to set up one hazard, meaning that T-Spikes will be a waste of a moveslot in the majority of the time.

    Also i really disagree with you about Forretress not being a good pivot. Foretress can switch into and force out many Pokemon, such as Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mamoswine, Blissey, Chansey, defensive Celebi, Cloyster, Gliscor, SpD Jirachi, and a lot of choice Pokemon locked in the wrong move. Volt Switch is a valuable asset on Foretress no matter how you see it, as it can give a free turn on one of your Pokemon, prevent you from being set-up bait for Pokemon such as Cloyster, Gyarados, and SubCharge Magnezone, and finally force many switches, which pares nicely with the hazards that Forretress sets up.
  23. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Custap Berry is nice for getting that "speed spin" or a quick hazard before you go down. Thats about it really but it does have use in actual battles. For example, I can now switch into LO Latios Surf under Rain (oroutside of rain if iv taken some damage before hand), get into Custap range, and smack it with Gyro Ball / pull off a last minute spin for my Dragonite to come in with MS intact. Or I can lead with Forry, survive any hit while getting down SR, then have my berry activate for a layer of Spikes in addition to my SR. Its honestly not overly difficult to get Forry into 25% range once you start being aware of the damage pokemon can do and how you can use it to your advantage.

    True, its not as good as Leftovers, which is 100% the most consistent and reliable choice for Forretress. However, its not a terrible choice, hence the AC mention. I personally have had better success with it than Shed Shell Shed Shell, which is only really useful for Magnezone, which you can Volt Switch out of anyway. I get more mileage out of Custap than I do with Shed Shell.
  24. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

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    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    What is the verdict on Pain Split? I think it is good enough for AC.

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