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BW Ubers FORRETRESS DIALGA ARCEUS GHOST LATIAS KYOGRE HIPPOWDON

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by gookie, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. gookie

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    FORRETRESS DIALGA ARCEUS GHOST LATIAS KYOGRE HIPPOWDON

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This team does not have a lot of history, but has beaten many mighty players like donkey, syrim, and trickroom. This team is capable of applying a lot of pressure to standard offense and defensive playstyles. Offensive playstyles often cannot handle the fast hazards from Forretress and the combined pressure of two offensive Calm Mind users. Defensive teams crumble to Choice Specs Dialga in tandem with hazards; 252 HP Arceus is 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse and even those that invest in Special Defense cannot avoid the 2HKO with normal poison damage unless they are Steel Arceus.

    ~Sets~

    (ps: I might lie about EV spreads)

    Forretress
    [​IMG]

    Forretress (F) @ Custap Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SDef / 0 Spe

    This is my lead more often than not. The miracle of Custap Forretress will become apparent when in about 80% of your matchups you can get a layer of Toxic Spikes and a layer of Spikes with no hassle. Your standard Deoxys-S pisses itself in fear after being taken down to its Focus Sash by full-powered Gyro Ball as it uses Taunt. The IVs are so that Fire Punch Deoxys puts you into Custap Berry range, as opposed to doing like 60% and making me furious. Reshiram and Kyurem-W leads beat me outright, but Kyogre absorbs their assaults easily, especially with no hazards.

    The advantage of having Spikes and Toxic Spikes down immediately are huge, offensive teams are extremely gimped by the constant poison damage, and I have the defensive core to switch around or stall Pokemon out with recovery moves. Against defensive teams the advantage is not as immediately apparent, but when you realise I have four Pokemon which call for a lot of predictable switches the residual damage is vital in getting the upperhand.

    Funnily enough, I will also lead with this in the face of a likely Mewtwo or Rayquaza lead, eschewing one layer if they choose to attack immediately so I can Gyro Ball them. Should they choose to set up they will be met with a 2HKO. Savvy Rayquazas will know to ExtremeSpeed me after Sturdy has been activated, but it's a 50/50 and you can always switch out to Ghost Arceus to preserve Custap Berry.
    Sometimes it is wise to preserve Forretress, especially if you can get it into Custap Berry range by switching it into hazards later, it's a great last minute check to stuff like CM Mewtwo and DD Rayquaza which my team occasionally struggles with.

    Dialga
    [​IMG]

    Dialga @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 144 HP / 252 SAtk / 112 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder
    - Fire Blast

    The big Kahuna. Probably my favourite Dialga set of all time, it is probably the most hazard resistant choice user in the tier, and is capable of dishing out massive damage. Fire Blast deals upwards of 80% to specially defensive Ferrothorn in rain, Draco Meteor 2HKOes standard tank Ho-Oh WITHOUT Stealth Rock (more of an illustrative than a practical example, as Regenerator Ho-Oh can still switch into Draco Meteors without Stealth Rock). Not much prediction is really needed with this set, just weigh up what can switch into the move you decide, i.e., don't use a move that could leave you in a situation wherein the team cannot handle a switch in that can take the move. This means that 90% of the time you'll be fine using a Dragon move; Steel Arceus can't handle Kyogre, Ferrothorn is set up bait, Chansey and Blissey are set up bait, Excadrill takes waaaaaaaaay too much damage.

    Another cool thing to do to preserve hazards is to break opposing Forretress's Sturdy with Ghost Arceus, then switch immediately to Dialga and use Thunder: 66.38 - 78.24%, saving you the trouble of having to engage Toxic Forretress in a painful battle with Ghost Arceus.

    Choice Specs Dialga usually has no trouble crushing defensive teams, common switch-ins, such as Grass Arceus in rain, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Specially Defensive Kyogre can either be taken out with the right prediction, or simply keel over to the insane damage output. Standard Ubers Skarmory takes Draco Meteors worse than Close Combats, suffering from a massive 61.97 – 72.75% damage, a clean 2HKO. 144 SpD Timid Arceus Grass takes 45.94 – 54.27% from Dragon Pulse, making it unable to stall out Dialga when inflicted with normal poison. Specially Defensive Kyogre is easily 2HKOed by Thunder and 3HKOed by Dragon Pulse, making it an iffy switch in at best. Ferrothorn is roasted by Fire Blast regardless of weather, and can be set up on by Forretress.

    The EVs are just speed-creep with bulk, I usually invest a fair amount to beat out Earth Plate and support Groudons (252/0 Groudon is OHKOed by Specs Draco Meteor), tank Ho-Ohs, support Dialgas, etc.

    Arceus-Ghost
    [​IMG]

    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 96 HP / 236 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Focus Blast
    - Judgment
    - Recover

    Your standard spinblocking CM Arceus-Ghost with a few EV tweaks. The difference in bulk is quite minimal, whereas the boost in damage output is huge. Specially Defensive Kyogre and standard Ubers Ferrothorn have much more difficulty checking this beast.

    Aside from spinblocking, Arceus-Ghost is very important in applying pressure to offensive teams, as it is almost impossible for them to check. It is also a semi-reliable check to Latias, outspeeding it and being able to beat it in a CM war most of the time. Arceus-Ghost also somewhat alleviates the pressure of ExtremeKiller from Hippowdon.

    If I see the opposing team is weak to CM Arceus Ghost I will not hesitate to lead with it and set up.

    Latias
    [​IMG]

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 172 HP / 144 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind

    My Kyogre check and second offensive CMer. I was tempted by the all-out attacker set, but needed Latias to reliably beat CM Grass and Electric Arceus. Usually throwing out Thunders early is better to catch over-eager Genesect and fish for paralysis. I only aim to outspeed Garchomp because I like having some bulk and power on my Latias.

    It is also interesting to note that 4/0 Ho-Oh is 2HKOed by Dragon Pulse + Thunder. Of course, Ferrothorn is a complete stop to this set, but as it is complete set up bait for dual hazard Forretress this doesn't really worry me.

    Kyogre
    [​IMG]

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Roar
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Kyogre serves a lot of roles on this team, beyond simple weather control and 100% accurate Thunders it provides a valuable pivot and status absorber. Most CM Arceus are stopped cold and phazed out, Ferrothorn risks a 51% chance to be burned in two Scalds (which is great to spam), making it much easier to handle. Roar is great to shuffle on obvious switches, and is capable of getting Palkia poisoned on the switch in, only to have it phazed out immediately. Speaking of Palkia, Choice Scarf barely ekes out 50% with Thunder, making staying in on it to Rest a viable option. Overzealous Scarf Palkia using Fire Blast or Spacial Rend will actually find themselves walled and slowly dying to poison damage.

    Hippowdon
    [​IMG]

    Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Slack Off
    - Whirlwind

    The first thing that probably jumps out at you is the choice of Sand Stream over Sand Force. There are many reasons for this: Kabutops can no longer 2HKO Hippowdon with Waterfall, Ho-Oh becomes a breeze to handle (although the burn is annoying), and I have a way of slowing down Kingdra, which is actually very threatening.

    Other than that, Hippowdon serves a very important role on this team, walling Groudon, physical Zekrom, ExtremeKiller, and being the only Electric-type immunity. Hippowdon was chosen over Groudon mainly because Ho-Oh would be too much of an asshole otherwise, but the reliable recovery is also very nice. Being able to switch into Ho-Oh and Groudon to set up Stealth Rock is also a great asset. I will also switch Hippowdon fearlessly into Ferrothorn because Power Whip is only a 3HKO.

    Using Hippowdon requires you to be aware of the fact that should Hippowdon be caught out by a stray critical hit or surprise mix set it will very rarely have the opportunity to heal itself back up unless it used Slack Off on that turn. Being so slow means that there are very few opposing Pokemon that Hippowdon can heal back in front of when in critical HP.

    Threatlist

    How do you guys even do a comprehensive one of these lol.

    Mewtwo can be annoying but Latias + Ghost Arceus is enough, even though one of them might die in the process. Ideally I can use Forretress to weaken it sufficiently then finish it off later.

    Expert Belt or Lustrous Palkia can 2HKO everything on this team but Latias outspeeds it so it can't outright sweep me.

    As I don't have anything over (effectively) 111 base Speed anything that is faster or can boost to be faster has the potential to be annoying.

    Conclusion

    shoutout to my homies, you know who you are.

    importable (open)
    Forretress (F) @ Custap Berry
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin

    Dialga @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 144 HP / 252 SAtk / 112 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder
    - Fire Blast

    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 96 HP / 236 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Focus Blast
    - Judgment
    - Recover

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 172 HP / 144 SAtk / 192 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Roar
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Hippowdon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Slack Off
    - Whirlwind


    don't forget to set Forretress's IVs!
  2. polop

    polop
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    To be honest this team's success surprises me. While it is unique in the sense it utilizes the rarest (and arguably 2nd hardest hitting) Dialga set, this team neglects one key trait that should often hurt it in the long run; a lack of a revenge killer.

    You've tried to bypass this by using a defensive core consisting of Max HP Max Defense Hippowdon, Latias, and Specially Defensive Ogre, and while I do admit this is effective in its own way, it doesn't stop all the terrifying sweepers that exist in the tier. Calm Mind Mewtwo, Mix Dragon Dance Rayquaza (Swords Dance is dangerous too as V-Create OHKOes Hippo after SR, and Latias will get OHKOed by +2 ExtremeSpeed after SR, everything else is OHKOed by Dragon Claw / V-Create), Calm Mind Lati@s, Nasty Plot Darkrai (Kyogre must have taken a good bit of residual damage though, like over 40%), Tailwind Zekrom, and Life Orbed Ho-Oh (needs two layers of Spikes) are just some of the Pokemon that can power through this team. Hippowdon's inability to Toxic may prove problematic, as this will make pokemon like Swords Dance Groudon and Swords Dance Ground Arceus able to get an EQ on it and switch out. You stated Forry can easily set up two layers of hazards, but the lack of two layers of Toxic Spikes (you said 1 layer of Spikes + 1 layer of Toxic Spikes), might make it difficult to stop these guys. Type-stacking teams might also be annoying. To give an example: after Rayquaza weakens Hippo Salamence should be able to sweep, but I really don't know how to help anyone prepare for this and this weakness can be played around and is common on balanced teams X_X.

    This problem is completely eliminated if Tentacruel / poison-type is present. Speaking of Tentacruel, you seem to be slightly annoyed of rain stall teams. The Chansey / Ferro / Tentacruel or just Ferrothorn w/t Protect + Tentacruel w/t Protect walls the entire team. Ghost Arceus switching in on Tentacruel risk being Toxiced (and they will get Toxiced after Tspikes are up), and its not like its Judgments will hurt seeing as it gets passive recovery from Rain Dish. Your only hope is "scald burns" from Kyogre, Latias, and Specs Dialga. While the latter two can hurt Tentacruel with Thunder, Tentacruel that carry Protect can take advantage of Dialga's Choice item and just scout what move it wants to use, then switch to Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn alreadys walls Latias so I won't say anything about that. After Toxic Spikes are set, Hippo and Ghost Arceus's longevity drop, and Forry will likely be dead if not useless from Tenta's presence (it can't touch it with Gyro Ball, rain-boosted Scald 2HKOes, and Rapid Spinning is easy after Ghost Arceus is Toxiced, a Ghost can quite easily block Forry's spinning unless its like min / min def giratina-o lol).

    The strange thing is, with Kyurem-W getting released Rain stall's popularity has dropped if not gone extinct X_X. So it may not be the largest issue, but the Ferrocruel core, I imagine can prove to be a great nuisance if you we're to go against it.

    Honestly the best way I could think of pairing up these threats would be to use Choice Scarf Palkia (well this doesn't let you revenge kill TW Zekrom but it takes care of non SD Rayquaza...) > Latias, and Life Orb Dialga > Specs Dialga would in my opinion be the simplest way to change the team and fix the issues. Scarf Kia is the only mon that can take a Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout while being able to serve as a revenge killer while Dialga's added freedom to moves lets it tear down cores with greater ease (Mixed LO is actually better but its all on your preference). Dropping Dialga for a revenge killer also works, but I can't think of any Choice Scarf mon that actually can get past Ferrocruel.
    Show Hide
    this hide tag does not exist

    There's also Smeargle that might be problematic but I'm going to not talk about it because that thing plain sucks and Kyogre should be able to put a decent stop to it most of the time unless sleep talk hax


    Of course I'm completely fine if you ignore this post and choose to avoid making the changes anyway... Good Luck with the team regardless :D. Poppy is one of the best Uber battlers ever, and this team partially shows that.
  3. gookie

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    I openly acknowledge some of the threats you mentioned, in particular any offensive variant of Mewtwo can wreak havoc on this team should it be played right (but it still has trouble going one on one unboosted vs 5/6 members of this team, including forry if Sturdy is unbroken). Mix DD Quaza is a threat to every team without a specialized Arceus, given, I can't revenge-kill it as easily, but it will really struggle to get a boost against that isn't Hippowdon, as even Forry 2HKOes it. Latias is not as huge of a threat as Mewtwo, as Arceus outspeeds it, mix (tailwind) Zekrom is threatening, but eh, after it kills something it will be forced out. Ho-Oh can power through Hippowdon only and ONLY with Life Orb; offensive Groudon, especially with SD, really hurts, but it will kill something then be forced out or faint most likely.

    Honestly, analysing this team's weaknesses is all well and good, but I would play with and against it first before saying anything, I forgo a lot of defensive backbone for insane offensive pressure; I cannot hope to check everything.

    Now that you have brought it up Protect Ferrothorn and Tentacruel ARE annoying, but, again, if I play it right I can break them with my three offensive 'mons. Tentacruel is set up bait for Ghost Arceus if I get burned or switch in on one layer, Ferrothorn often gets burned and with my spread takes almost 80% from +1 Focus Blast.

    In theory, a Choice Scarf user over Dialga seems to be a better fit, but in practice I have missed the insane power and wallbreaking potential that Specs Dialga provides.

    Really, I have nothing much else to say except try it out first!!!
  4. sammao

    sammao

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    This whole team is walled by Chansey, you can only hurt it with Forretress Gyro Ball, which you explained is usually sacrifice in the beginning, I suppose you can try to set up two layers of toxic spikes, but if you opponent get rid of that, you will have to do a pp stall war against it, which isn't exactly ideal. I suggest Psyshock over thunder on Latia to deal with this threat, you will still be fine against Kyogre, Genesects and other steel type that thunder need to hit.
  5. gookie

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    i can and will stall chansey out with ogre. it's so rare nowadays but i can use it to rest on, set up hazards on, etc etc. not a problem.
  6. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Yeah, this team is a bit stall weak, since like the others have said, pink blobs in conjunction with other stall mons like Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Lugia and stuff can really wall you flat. I know you can stall Chansey, but you won't be able to stall the rest of the team (just isn't happening). Once opposing Toxic Spikes go up, it becomes a lot harder for GhostCeus to spin-block. Since Forretress is not built for lasting around, it's not going to spin very reliably either. I reckon all you need is couple of set modifications, and you'll probably be better position to take down stall. While I agree Specs Dialga is magnificent, it might be a better idea to change the set to Mixed Dialga, which lets you break down such walls with more ease. The second would be to replace Roar with Calm Mind on Kyogre. This way, Kyogre will actually pose a long time threat, meaning it isn't just a cue for your opponent to start spamming hazards, which unfortunately is something Special Defensive Kyogre does sometimes. Most of the Calm Minders that SpD Kyogre Roars out will have trouble taking it on when it has CM as well, since you can actually Calm Mind on most of them (apart from like, CM Water, which you have Latias right there for). So the sets would be:

    Dialga @ Expert belt
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 120 HP / 136 Atk / 252 SpA
    Nature: Quiet
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder
    - Brick Break
    - Dragon Pulse / Fire Blast

    and:

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Ability: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature: Calm
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Have fun.
  7. Donkey

    Donkey

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    CM kyogre loses to stall...stall frequently has Roar Giratina and Roar Kyogre along with phasing arceus forms or Arceus-Grass. Roar Kyogre easily beats Chansey by stacking hazard damage.

    Brick Break Dialga adds nothing to the team, in fact it takes it away. With good prediction and double switches this team can easily handle stall. Dialga tears holes allowing other pokemon to do more damage.

    If anything, this team is weak to some offensive mons for the reasons mr. lol mentioned but it is still a really cool and well built team so I don't have any suggestions that wouldnt change the team's dynamic.
  8. trickroom

    trickroom
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    This is a great team and I saw how well it does against cool players, ladder sucks. Better than my team of huge birds for sure :[

    Calm Mind Kyogre can't beat stall that easily now because Sleep counters are reset every switch, and stall teams will always carry at least one reliable phazer. I think Roar Kyogre should stay, it can threaten stall in some way too, such as forcing out Forretress with Scald, annoying Arceus forms with burns and spamming Roar to rack up entry hazards, and thanks to Rest, Kyogre does not fear status.

    I don't know about Mixed Dialga breaking stall, Brick Break is pretty weak and doesn't 2HKO Chansey. I would suggest you try out a more offensive Mixed Dialga if you really want to use it. One with Outrage, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast and Bulk Up. You lure in Groudon OHKO them, Outrage smashes the rest, of course Lugia will wall you but it can't touch your team at all besides phazing things.

    Mr.lol is right that the lack of revenge killers can be a bad issue when you are facing those monstrous sweepers but I think another threat annoys this team greatly Shaymin-S. The Subseed set can easily force out Hippowdon or even Kyogre with Seed Flare or just Leech Seed you, Latias can get haxed by Air Slash and when combined with Special Defense drops it will be really annoying. Even Ghost Arceus hates Seed Flares + Air Slash flinches.

    Ferrothorn can also be sort of annoying if Focus Blast misses and Specs Dialga mispredict. It walls Latias, Hippowdon, Kyogre and annoys Arceus with Leech Seed, although a much stronger Focus Blast helps a lot. Custap Forretress won't be alive mid game to deal with Ferrothorn so I guess you just have to predict right with Specs Dialga or destroy Ferrothorn as it switches in on Arceus.

    The shitty Electric Arceus can sometimes get lucky and get past Latias with paralysis chances. It can KO everyone with Thunder + Ice Beam, Ghost Arceus will do less damage to it, and Hippowdon dies to +1 Ice Beam, not much to change it, since Latias already rapes it anyway besides bs hax.
  9. BKC

    BKC
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    From now on, only post if you are going to rate the team. The next person to post without offering a rate is getting infracted.
  10. lousy918

    lousy918

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    ^lol how hypocritical jkjk

    You should shift 4 EVs from HP to SAtk, because you are hitting a Stealth Rock number while not hitting a Soul Dew number. You should understand what I mean.

    bablabla what a shit rate i cant see anything

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