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Forretress (UPDATE)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by gookie, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    [Overview]

    <p>Much has changed with the shift to BW, but Forretress is still Forretress. It remains exceptionally good at what it does, namely providing entry hazard and Rapid Spin support, but outside of that role, it is extremely limited. BW brought it a few buffs in Volt Switch and the improvement to Sturdy, which now acts as a psuedo-Focus Sash. Sadly, threats such as Reshiram and Magic Bounce Xatu have also come into play, making life a bit harder. All in all, play safe, support Forretress well, and watch as your opponent is shredded and poisoned at every turn by layer after layer of entry hazards. Be a bit careless and predict wrongly, though, and shudder as your bagworm is wiped out every match without fail.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Toxic Spikes
    move 4: Pain Split / Toxic / Volt Switch
    item: Leftovers
    nature : Careful
    evs : 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress's amazing Bug / Steel typing, great overall bulk, and access to Rapid Spin, as well as all three entry hazards, make it a great choice for a support role on nearly any team. Due to the lack of Pokemon able to reliably set them up, Spikes is a massively useful move on Forretress in Ubers. Furthermore, there are a wide range of grounded Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes, but affected by Spikes, such as Steel Arceus, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Dialga; this makes Spikes a great move to use on Forretress. Toxic Spikes are the second hazard that Forretress will often use; they can be incredibly dangerous in Ubers due to very threatening Pokemon such as Darkrai, Mewtwo, Blaziken, Palkia, and the majority of Calm Mind Arceus formes (most notably Ghost) being put on a timer once poisoned; note, however, that Calm Mind Arceus inflicted with only regular poison can still pull off a sweep. All weather starters are also vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, making them an effective weapon in winning the weather war. With the prevalence of Choice items and Draco Meteor users, Forretress will find plenty of opportunities to set up its hazards. Rapid Spin is where Forretress carves out its biggest niche. Thanks to its great resistances to common Ghost-, Dark-, Ice-, and Dragon-type attacks, it is able to consistently switch in and remove entry hazards, allowing Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Reshiram to come into play without losing huge chunks of their health. Bulky grounded Pokemon such as Groudon, Palkia, most Arceus formes, and Chansey also appreciate Forretress's ability to remove the Toxic Spikes that greatly reduce their staying power.</p>

    <p>Pain Split, Toxic, and Volt Switch are mainly filler options, but they have their uses. The first allows Forretress to switch into Choice-locked resisted moves more recklessly; and, perhaps more importantly, makes Forretress one of the best Ferrothorn counters in the game. Ferrothorn can only significantly damage Forretress with Iron Barbs and Leech Seed, but with Pain Split Forretress can set up hazards and Rapid Spin on Ferrothorn to its heart's content. Toxic allows Forretress to cripple spinblockers and walls such as Lugia and Ho-Oh, which are immune to Toxic Spikes, and also punishes Arceus formes that might try to set up on Forretress. Finally, Volt Switch lets Forretress act as a scout after it has laid a few entry hazards, and can be useful for maintaining offensive momentum, or even setting up a Pursuit trap on a careless spinblocker.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Max HP and Special Defense along with a Special Defense-boosting nature is necessary to make the most of Forretress's relatively low special bulk, as it needs all it can get to take the Draco Meteors and Ice Beams thrown around in Ubers. Leftovers is the item of choice, as the passive recovery helps Forretress to shrug off weak or resisted attacks. Keep in mind, however, that even with full investment, neutral special attacks still take a fair chunk out of Forretress's health, so ensure that you play off of its numerous resistances.</p>

    <p>A more physically defensive spread (252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD with a Bold or a Relaxed nature) can be used with Toxic to check certain physical attackers. This spread ensures that Forretress is never 2HKOed by +1 Outrage from Dragon Dance Rayquaza. However, Forretress will still struggle against even non-Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus packing Earthquake; as such, a spread of 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD can be used to always avoid the 2HKO from a +2 Adamant Arceus using Earthquake. Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus still possesses the ability to 2HKO after Stealth Rock with Earthquake almost all the time (guaranteed for Adamant, even without Stealth Rock); at this point, one should just use a fully physically defensive spread. Forretress also struggles with Lum Berry variants of Extreme Killer Arceus, which can absorb one Toxic and will beat Forretress more often than not, even if the Forretress is packing Pain Split.</p>

    <p>A Ghost-type is a mandatory teammate to block Rapid Spin, which can otherwise waste all of Forretress's hard work; the Giratina formes are probably the best, and both have good synergy with Forretress, though Ghost Arceus makes a great choice as well. Blissey and Chansey can take most neutral or super effective special attacks directed at Forretress in stride, while supporting the team with Wish or Stealth Rock. In return, Forretress can easily set up on many of the physical attackers that threaten Chansey or Blissey, such as Garchomp and Groudon that lack a Fire-type move. Palkia can switch into many Pokemon that often come in on Forretress, such as Choice Specs Kyogre, Reshiram, Giratina-O, opposing Palkia, and Mewtwo, and threaten them with Thunder or its STAB Dragon-type attacks, and thus makes a great teammate. Sweepers such as most Calm Mind Arceus and Kyogre love having Forretress as a partner to both set up and remove Toxic Spikes. Ho-Oh and Reshiram enjoy Rapid Spin support, and can easily switch into most Fire-type attacks for Forretress; in return, it can tank Dragon-type moves for Reshiram and come in on defensive Groudon without a Fire-type move, which is a constant threat to Ho-Oh. Groudon also forms a potent physically defensive core with Forretress, and can set up Stealth Rock, phaze with Roar or Dragon Tail to rack up entry hazard damage, and scare Dialga off with STAB Earthquake. Kyogre can lessen Forretress's Fire-type weakness thanks to Drizzle and destroy Fire Punch Groudon, Ho-Oh, and select Arceus formes. Zekrom can stop defensive Kyogre and Ho-Oh with its STAB Bolt Strike. Dialga is also a great teammate, as it can come in after Forretress uses Volt Switch on the Giratina formes looking to spinblock, scaring them off and setting up Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>Despite the third slot being dedicated to a secondary hazard most of the time, Forretress can employ an additional utility move for fourth slot. Pain Split + Volt Switch allows Forretress to stay healthy and gain momentum. Pain Split + Toxic allows it to check Extreme Killer Arceus. Gyro Ball, Hidden Power Ice, and Payback also have their uses. Gyro Ball provides Forretress with a usably meaty STAB attack, and can hit common switch-ins such as Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Giratina-O for reasonable damage. It also gets a super effective hit on Kyurem-W, 2HKOing it even without Stealth Rock, although a Choice Specs-boosted Draco Meteor 2HKOs Forretress in return. Hidden Power Ice gives Forretress the ability to counter Gliscor, provided that Forretress is healthy, and a strong attack against Rayquaza and Shaymin-S. Payback can be used to check Latias and Latios, but Forretress can only switch into sets with Dragon Pulse and Grass Knot, as Thunder, Surf or Hidden Power Fire will maul it. However, a +1 Dragon Pulse will 3HKO Forretress from either of the twins, making Forretress a shaky check at best.</p>

    <p>Stealth Rock can be used over Spikes or Toxic Spikes on more offensive teams lacking another entry hazard supporter. However, in most cases, it's a waste of Forretress's potential, especially considering the range of other Pokemon that can also set up Stealth Rock.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>As previously mentioned, Forretress is fairly limited outside of the listed options. Shed Shell is an option to escape from Magnezone, but Forretress will greatly miss the Leftovers recovery. Forretress learns Reflect and Light Screen, and can thus make decent use of a dual screens set, but it should usually opt to Volt Switch out or simply lay more entry hazards rather than use a screen. Under Light Screen and rain, however, Forretress can be a tough nut to crack with even Fire-type attacks. Protect can be used in the last slot to scout for foes carrying a surprise Fire-type attack, such as Espeon and Groudon, and also eases prediction when dealing with Choice item users, but the listed moves are generally more useful, and Forretress already has many move options as it is. Earthquake can be used to catch Heatran, Magnezone, and Reshiram on the switch. A Custap Berry in conjunction with Sturdy can allow Forretress to function as a sort of suicide lead, but that is usually a waste of its defensive potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Magic Bounce Espeon and Xatu with Hidden Power Fire are probably Forretress's biggest counters; they reflect its attempts to set up entry hazards and can OHKO with a 4x super effective Hidden Power. Tentacruel can also be annoying, as it absorbs Toxic Spikes, has access to Rapid Spin, and can scare Forretress off with a potentially rain-boosted Scald, while Forretress can do little back bar Earthquake. Forretress has trouble with any Pokemon carrying a Fire-type move as well, as most of them will OHKO if rain is not present; Reshiram, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, and Mewtwo are the most common users. Although Groudon is normally setup fodder for Forretress, it will sometimes run Fire Punch or Overheat to fry the bug. Both Ho-Oh and Reshiram can switch in at will and threaten Forretress with their STAB Fire-type attacks, only really fearing Stealth Rock damage or Toxic. Kyogre has little to fear from any of Forretress's attacks, and can drown Forretress with its Water-type STAB moves. Finally, although rare in today's metagame, Heatran can roast Forretress with Lava Plume or Fire Blast, and Poison Heal Gliscor can freely come in and either Taunt Forretress or set up a Substitute.</p>
  2. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Is a toxic+pain split set viable? I use it on my sun team and it counters extremekiller arceus well. The spread is like 252 hp/16 def/240 spdef impish nature. I believe someone posted this in the older Normal Arceus update?(not the current one). Maybe it should get an AC mention? If however, Arceus has Lum Berry, Forretress will likely lose.
  3. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    IMO
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock / Toxic
    - Pain Split / Volt Switch / Toxic

    A little bit slashy but the last two moveslots are almost literally choose anything out of TS/SR/Toxic/PSplit/Volt Switch, with the exception of running three hazards because that's just dumb.

    Spikes imo is more important than TS for the immediate damage, and the fact that Arceus can't just waltz in on layer one TS for regular poison which allows him to actually wipe out stall teams. TS is obviously still useful but I feel like its usefulness dropped a bit this gen.

    Gyro Ball I agree to an extent but mention it somewhere because it hits Kyurem-W se and does a decent amount to Mewtwo, Darkrai, and kinda to extremekiller etc, and in some situations its better than Volt Switch because Volt Switch doesnt break Subs (except for Gyarados's) because it's so weak. Also, it's not completely walled by something extremely stupid like Hone Claws / Sub Dugtrio. Other times you might not have something faster than the opponent and you want Forry to stay in to take the hit, and you might find the abillity to deal damage necessary.
  4. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Mention that rain + light screen + pain split let's it set up on and sort of beat subless gira_o, Gira_a, and ghost arceus, even if they pack fire attacks. Beating spinblockers is pretty chill and tbh, having light screen up in ubers is a godsend anyway. Not main set material, but worth a mention.
  5. gookie

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    i'm not going to mention light screen, i'd rather set up hazards then switch out

    a normal boon to screeners is speed

    @jibaku, i'll wait for a few other people to weigh in on slashes but i will gladly make an AC mention of gyro ball
  6. trickroom

    trickroom
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    IMO
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock / Toxic
    - Pain Split / Volt Switch / Toxic

    I agree with Jibaku slashes but why not just put Toxic in the 4th slot instead of slashing it in the 3rd slot too?

    Spikes is really more important it hits Ferrothorn, Dialga and Heatran harder as well. The immediate damage really prevents Kyogre from spamming full power Water Spouts on the turn it comes out. Also, Lugia abuses Spikes much better or any other phazer really.

    But Gyarados is the strongest pokemon in Ubers!
    Volt Switch is pretty weak but it helps Forretress to scout and go right to the counter after it is being hit. Breaking Focus Sash can help sometimes against Deoxys-A.

    I like using a Bold nature Forretress ( same spread like Skarm or 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD )more these days because SD Arceus is getting pretty common, and Forretress can check it with Toxic. Bold also helps with Kyurem-B who can't hurt you much actually, surviving 2 +1 Rayquaza Outrage is always useful.
  7. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    made some changes according to jibaku and trickroom - qc get on this please
  8. barry4ever

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    I think Hidden Power Ice should be mentioned there somewhere in AC since it is pretty useful to break Gliscor's Sub and do some damage to Rayquaza locked into Outrage. Also on the last 2 slots, I'd prefer Toxic not be last slash. Toxic is hella useful on Forretress especially now that Latias is everywhere. I personally dont have an opinion about the ev spread, both are useful tbh. Just take a judgement call on it.

    QC Approved 1/3
  9. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Yeah HP Ice is really useful, lol. An AC mention sounds good.

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  10. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    Be sure to mention Gyro Ball's use against Kyurem-W, Lati@s, etc. in AC.

    QC APPROVED: 3/3
  11. gookie

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    will begin writing up shortly, thanks for the approvals guys.
  12. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
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    One thing I noticed is that there isn't a single mention of Kyurem-W at all, especially since it should be at least mentioned that even with 252/252+, Forretress is still 2HKOed by Draco Meteor with Stealth Rocks up. The part about Gyro Ball is good, but Gyro Ball only 3HKOes back, so even if it is locked into Ice Beam, Forretress would be better off spinning or setting up hazards unless Kyurem is at 40% health or less. It is also useless against anything else, since there's a ton of Water-types and stuff running amok, as well as the fact that the somewhat slower Ubers Speed tiers sap Gyro Ball's power.
  13. Jibaku

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    Unless my calculations are wrong, it should 2HKO 100% of the time. Assuming Modest max Speed Kyurem-W, which is..er..the slowest set atm, you're dealing a minimum of 52.68%.
  14. Hawkstar

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    0Atk Forretress (Neutral) Gyro Ball vs 4HP/0Def Kyurem White (Neutral): 44% - 53% (176 - 210 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 11% chance to 2HKO.

    When I made that post I forgot to set Forretress's Speed IV to 0, but it still isn't a guaranteed 2HKO, unless SR is on the field.
  15. Jibaku

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    Here's what I got

    216 Atk (0 EVs) 95 Base Power STAB Gyro Ball ((289/76)*25) vs 391 HP / 217 Def Kyurem-W = 206-246 damage (52.68%-62.91%)
  16. Hawkstar

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    Why are you using Attack EVs? I used 0 EVs because there are no analyses with any investment in Attack either here or on-site. 216 EVs seems like a lot of EVs for a purely defensive Pokemon, especially when Gyro Ball has 2 targets in the Ubers metagame: Kyurem formes and Terrakion. Might be more, as that's all I can think of off the top of my head, but still not enough to justify 216 Attack EVs in my opinion.

    Edit: I misread that as 216 Attack EVs rather than that being its actual stat.

    Edit 2: OK, now I am getting your results Jibaku, I don't understand how I was getting the ones I had before but now I agree at least that Gyro Ball is a good move for taking out Kyurem.
  17. Jibaku

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    I am not using Attack EVs
  18. Yonko7

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    [Overview]

    <p>Much has changed with the shift to BW, but Forretress is still Forretress. It remains exceptionally good at what it does, namely providing entry hazard and Rapid Spin support, but outside of that role, it is extremely limited. BW brought it a few buffs in Volt Switch and the improvement to Sturdy, which now acts as a psuedo-Focus Sash. Sadly, threats such as Reshiram and Magic Bounce Xatu have also come into play, making life a bit harder. All in all, play safe, support Forretress well, and watch as your opponent is shredded and poisoned at every turn by layer after layer of entry hazards. Be a bit careless, and predict wrongly though, and shudder as your bagworm is wiped out every match without fail.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Toxic Spikes
    move 4: Pain Split / Toxic / Volt Switch
    item: Leftovers
    nature : Calm
    evs : 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress's amazing Bug / Steel typing, great overall bulk, and access to Rapid Spin, as well as all three entry hazards, make it a great choice for a support role on nearly any team. Due to the lack of other Pokemon able to reliably set them up, Spikes is a massively useful move on Forretress in Ubers. Furthermore, there are a wide range of grounded Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes, but affected by Spikes, such as Steel Arceus, Excadrill, Ferrothorn and Dialga; this makes Spikes a great move to use on Forretress. Toxic Spikes are is the second hazard that Forretress will often uses; they can be incredibly dangerous in Ubers due to very threatening Pokemon such as Darkrai, Mewtwo, Blaziken, Palkia, and the majority of Calm Mind Arceus Formes (most notably Ghost) being put on a timer once poisoned; note, however, that Calm Mind Arceus inflicted with only regular Poison can still pull off a sweep. All weather starters are also vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, making them Toxic Spikes 'them' does look ambiguous in this case an effective weapon in winning the weather war. With the prevalence of Choice items and Draco Meteor users, Forretress will find plenty of opportunities to set up its hazards up. Rapid Spin is where Forretress carves out its biggest niche. Thanks to its great resistances to common Ghost-, Dark-, Ice-, and Dragon-type attacks, it is able to consistently switch in and remove entry hazards, allowing Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Reshiram to come into play without losing huge chunks of their health. Bulky grounded Pokemon such as Groudon, Palkia, most Arceus formes, and Chansey also appreciate Forretress's ability to remove the Toxic Spikes that greatly reduces their staying power. </p>

    <p>Pain Split, Toxic and Volt Switch are mainly filler options, but they have their uses. The first allows Forretress to switch into Choice-locked resisted moves more recklessly; and, perhaps more importantly, makes Forretress one of the best Ferrothorn counters in the game. Ferrothorn can only significantly damage Forretress with Iron Barbs and Leech Seed, but with Pain Split Forretress can set up hazards and Rapid Spin on Ferrothorn to its heart's content. Toxic allows Forretress to cripple spinblockers and walls such as Lugia and Ho-Oh, who are immune to Toxic Spikes, and also punishes Arceus formes who may try to set up on Forretress. Finally,Volt Switch lets Forretress act as a scout after it has laid a few entry hazards, and can be useful for maintaining offensive momentum, or even setting up a Pursuit trap on a careless spinblocker..Space</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Max HP and Special Defense along with a Special Defense-boosting nature is are necessary to make the most of Forretress's relatively low special bulk, as it needs all it can get to take the Draco Meteors and Ice Beams thrown around in Ubers. Leftovers is the item of choice, as the passive recovery helps Forretress to shrug off weak or resisted attacks. Keep in mind, however, that even with full investment, neutral special attacks still take a fair chunk out of its health, so ensure that you play off of it Forretress's numerous resistances.</p>

    <p>A more physically defensive spread (252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD with a Bold or a Relaxed nature) can be used with Toxic to check certain physical attackers. This spread ensures that Forretress is never 2HKOd by +1 Outrage from Dragon Dance Rayquaza. However, Forretress will still struggle against even non-Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus packing Earthquake, as such a spread of 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD can be used to always avoid the 2HKO from a +2 Adamant Arceus using Earthquake. Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus still possesses the ability to 2HKO after Stealth Rock with Earthquake almost all the time (guaranteed for Adamant, even without Stealth Rock), at this point one should just use a fully Physically Defensive spread. Forretress also struggles with Lum Berry variants of Extreme Killer Arceus, which can absorb one Toxic and will beat Forretress more often than not, even if the bagworm is packing Pain Split.</p>

    <p>A Ghost-type is a mandatory teammate to block Rapid Spin, which can otherwise waste all of Forretress's hard work; the Giratina formes are probably the best, and both have good synergy with Forretress, though Ghost Arceus makes a great choice as well. Blissey and Chansey can take most neutral or super effective special attacks directed at Forretress in stride, while supporting the team with Wish or Stealth Rock. In return, Forretress can easily set up on many of the physical attackers that threaten Chansey or Blissey, such as Garchomp and Groudon that lack a Fire-type move. Palkia can switch into many Pokemon that often come in on Forretress, such as Choice Specs Kyogre, Reshiram, Giratina-O, opposing Palkia, and Mewtwo,; Semicolon and threaten them with Thunder or its STAB Dragon-type attacks, and thus makes a great teammate. Sweepers such as most Calm Mind Arceus and Kyogre love having Forretress as a partner to both set up and remove Toxic Spikes. Ho-Oh and Reshiram enjoy Rapid Spin support, and can easily switch into most Fire-type attacks for Forretress; in return, the bagworm can tank Dragon-type moves for Reshiram and come in on defensive Groudon, whicho is a constant threat to Ho-Oh. Groudon also forms a potent physically defensive core with Forretress, and can set up Stealth Rock, phaze with Roar or Dragon Tail to rack up entry hazard damage, and scare Dialga off with STAB Earthquake. Kyogre can lessen Forretress's Fire-type weakness thanks to Drizzle and destroy Fire Punch Groudon, Ho-Oh, and select Arceus formes. Zekrom can stop defensive Kyogre and Ho-Oh with its STAB Bolt Strike. Dialga is also a great team mate, as it can come in after Forretress uses Volt Switch on the Giratina Formes looking to spinblock, scaring them off and setting up Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>Despite the third slot being dedicated to a secondary hazard most of the time, Forretress can employ an additional utility move from the fourth slot. Pain Split + Volt switch allows Forretress to stay healthy and gain momentum. Pain Split + Toxic allows it to check Extreme Killer Arceus. Gyro Ball, Hidden Power Ice and Payback also have their uses. Gyro Ball provides Forretress with a usablye meaty STAB attack, and can hit common switch-ins such as Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Giratina-O for reasonable damage. It also gets a super-effective hit on Kyurem-W, 2HKOing it even without Stealth Rock, although Choice Specs Draco Meteor 2HKOs, Comma so don't switch Forretress into it. Hidden Power Ice gives Forretress the ability to counter Gliscor, povided it that Forretress is healthy, and have a strong attack against Rayquaza and Shaymin-S. Payback can be used to check Latias and Latios, but Forretress can only switch into sets with Dragon Pulse and Grass Knot, as Thunder, Surf or Hidden Power Fire will maul it. However, +1 Dragon Pulse will 3HKO Forretress from either of the twins, making Forretress a shaky check at best.</p>

    <p>Stealth Rock can be used over Spikes or Toxic Spikes on more offensive teams lacking another entry hazard supporter. But, in most cases it is a waste of Forretress's potential, especially considering the range of other Pokemon that can also set up Stealth Rock.<p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>As previously mentioned, Forretress is fairly limited outside of the listed options. Shed Shell is an option to escape from Magnezone, but Forretress will greatly miss the Leftovers recovery. Forretress learns Reflect and Light Screen, and can thus make decent use of a dual screens set, but it should usually opt to Volt Switch out or simply lay more entry hazards rather than use a screen. Under Light Screen and rain, however, Forretress can be a tough nut to crack with even Fire-type attacks. Protect can be used in the last slot to scout for foes carrying a surprise Fire-type attack, such as Espeon and Groudon, and also eases prediction when dealing with Choice item users, but the listed moves are generally more useful, and Forretress already has many move options as it is. Earthquake can be used to catch Heatran, Magnezone, and Reshiram on the switch. A Custap Berry in conjunction with Sturdy can allow Forretress to function as a sort of suicide lead, but that is usually a waste of its defensive potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Magic Bounce Espeon and Xatu with Hidden Power Fire are probably Forretress's biggest counters; they reflect its attempts to set up entry hazards and can OHKO with a 4x super effective Hidden Power. Tentacruel can also be annoying, as it absorbs Toxic Spikes, has access to Rapid Spin, and can scare Forretress off with a potentially rain-boosted Scald, while Forretress can do little back bar Earthquake. Forretress has trouble with any Pokemon carrying a Fire-type move as well, as most of them will OHKO if rain is not present; Reshiram, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, and Mewtwo are the most common users. Although Groudon is normally setup fodder for Forretress, it will sometimes run Fire Punch or Overheat to fry the bug. Both Ho-Oh and Reshiram can switch in at will and threaten Forretress with their STAB Fire-type attacks, only really fearing Stealth Rock damage or Toxic. Kyogre has little to fear from any of Forretress's attacks, and can drown Forretress with its Water-type STAB moves. Finally, although rare in today's metagame, Heatran can roast Forretress with Lava Plume or Fire Blast, and Poison Heal Gliscor can freely come in and either Taunt Forretress or set up a Substitute.</p>



    Nice job writing this!
  19. EkSalJouMoer

    EkSalJouMoer

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Btw for c&c xatu has heat wave. Just saying lol.
  20. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

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    Messages:
    8,227
    Poppy please address Yonko's amateur check

    you don't have to implement everything that he changed, just what you agree with

    if you have questions don't implement it and the next gper will address it
  21. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    implemented what i felt like
  22. Oglemi

    Oglemi it's me heysup's gay friend, the legendary gaysup
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
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    add
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    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Much has changed with the shift to BW, but Forretress is still Forretress. It remains exceptionally good at what it does, namely providing entry hazard and Rapid Spin support, but outside of that role, it is extremely limited. BW brought it a few buffs in Volt Switch and the improvement to Sturdy, which now acts as a psuedo-Focus Sash. Sadly, threats such as Reshiram and Magic Bounce Xatu have also come into play, making life a bit harder. All in all, play safe, support Forretress well, and watch as your opponent is shredded and poisoned at every turn by layer after layer of entry hazards. Be a bit careless, and predict wrongly though, and shudder as your bagworm is wiped out every match without fail.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Toxic Spikes
    move 4: Pain Split / Toxic / Volt Switch
    item: Leftovers
    nature : Calm
    evs : 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress's amazing Bug / Steel typing, great overall bulk, and access to Rapid Spin, as well as all three entry hazards, make it a great choice for a support role on nearly any team. Due to the lack of Pokemon able to reliably set them up, Spikes is a massively useful move on Forretress in Ubers. Furthermore, there are a wide range of grounded Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes, but affected by Spikes, such as Steel Arceus, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Dialga; this makes Spikes a great move to use on Forretress. Toxic Spikes are the second hazard that Forretress will often use; they can be incredibly dangerous in Ubers due to very threatening Pokemon such as Darkrai, Mewtwo, Blaziken, Palkia, and the majority of Calm Mind Arceus formes (most notably Ghost) being put on a timer once poisoned; note, however, that Calm Mind Arceus inflicted with only regular poison can still pull off a sweep. All weather starters are also vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, making them an effective weapon in winning the weather war. With the prevalence of Choice items and Draco Meteor users, Forretress will find plenty of opportunities to set up its hazards. Rapid Spin is where Forretress carves out its biggest niche. Thanks to its great resistances to common Ghost-, Dark-, Ice-, and Dragon-type attacks, it is able to consistently switch in and remove entry hazards, allowing Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Reshiram to come into play without losing huge chunks of their health. Bulky grounded Pokemon such as Groudon, Palkia, most Arceus formes, and Chansey also appreciate Forretress's ability to remove the Toxic Spikes that greatly reduces their staying power.</p>

    <p>Pain Split, Toxic, and Volt Switch are mainly filler options, but they have their uses. The first allows Forretress to switch into Choice-locked resisted moves more recklessly; and, perhaps more importantly, makes Forretress one of the best Ferrothorn counters in the game. Ferrothorn can only significantly damage Forretress with Iron Barbs and Leech Seed, but with Pain Split Forretress can set up hazards and Rapid Spin on Ferrothorn to its heart's content. Toxic allows Forretress to cripple spinblockers and walls such as Lugia and Ho-Oh, who are immune to Toxic Spikes, and also punishes Arceus formes who may try to set up on Forretress. Finally, Volt Switch lets Forretress act as a scout after it has laid a few entry hazards, and can be useful for maintaining offensive momentum, or even setting up a Pursuit trap on a careless spinblocker.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Max HP and Special Defense along with a Special Defense-boosting nature is necessary to make the most of Forretress's relatively low special bulk, as it needs all it can get to take the Draco Meteors and Ice Beams thrown around in Ubers. Leftovers is the item of choice, as the passive recovery helps Forretress to shrug off weak or resisted attacks. Keep in mind, however, that even with full investment, neutral special attacks still take a fair chunk out of Forretress's health, so ensure that you play off of its numerous resistances.</p>

    <p>A more physically defensive spread (252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD with a Bold or a Relaxed nature) can be used with Toxic to check certain physical attackers. This spread ensures that Forretress is never 2HKOed by +1 Outrage from Dragon Dance Rayquaza. However, Forretress will still struggle against even non-Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus packing Earthquake, as such a spread of 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD can be used to always avoid the 2HKO from a +2 Adamant Arceus using Earthquake. Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus still possesses the ability to 2HKO after Stealth Rock with Earthquake almost all the time (guaranteed for Adamant, even without Stealth Rock), at this point one should just use a fully physically defensive spread. Forretress also struggles with Lum Berry variants of Extreme Killer Arceus, which can absorb one Toxic and will beat Forretress more often than not, even if Forretress is packing Pain Split.</p>

    <p>A Ghost-type is a mandatory teammate to block Rapid Spin, which can otherwise waste all of Forretress's hard work; the Giratina formes are probably the best, and both have good synergy with Forretress, though Ghost Arceus makes a great choice as well. Blissey and Chansey can take most neutral or super effective special attacks directed at Forretress in stride, while supporting the team with Wish or Stealth Rock. In return, Forretress can easily set up on many of the physical attackers that threaten Chansey or Blissey, such as Garchomp and Groudon that lack a Fire-type move. Palkia can switch into many Pokemon that often come in on Forretress, such as Choice Specs Kyogre, Reshiram, Giratina-O, opposing Palkia, and Mewtwo, and threaten them with Thunder or its STAB Dragon-type attacks, and thus makes a great teammate. Sweepers such as most Calm Mind Arceus and Kyogre love having Forretress as a partner to both set up and remove Toxic Spikes. Ho-Oh and Reshiram enjoy Rapid Spin support, and can easily switch into most Fire-type attacks for Forretress; in return, it can tank Dragon-type moves for Reshiram and come in on defensive Groudon, which is a constant threat to Ho-Oh. Groudon also forms a potent physically defensive core with Forretress, and can set up Stealth Rock, phaze with Roar or Dragon Tail to rack up entry hazard damage, and scare Dialga off with STAB Earthquake. Kyogre can lessen Forretress's Fire-type weakness thanks to Drizzle and destroy Fire Punch Groudon, Ho-Oh, and select Arceus formes. Zekrom can stop defensive Kyogre and Ho-Oh with its STAB Bolt Strike. Dialga is also a great teammate, as it can come in after Forretress uses Volt Switch on the Giratina formes looking to spinblock, scaring them off and setting up Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>Despite the third slot being dedicated to a secondary hazard most of the time, Forretress can employ an additional utility move for the fourth slot. Pain Split + Volt Switch allows Forretress to stay healthy and gain momentum. Pain Split + Toxic allows it to check Extreme Killer Arceus. Gyro Ball, Hidden Power Ice, and Payback also have their uses. Gyro Ball provides Forretress with a usably meaty STAB attack, and can hit common switch-ins such as Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Giratina-O for reasonable damage. It also gets a super effective hit on Kyurem-W, 2HKOing it even without Stealth Rock, although a Choice Specs-boosted Draco Meteor 2HKOs Forretress in return. Hidden Power Ice gives Forretress the ability to counter Gliscor, provided that Forretress is healthy, and have a strong attack against Rayquaza and Shaymin-S. Payback can be used to check Latias and Latios, but Forretress can only switch into sets with Dragon Pulse and Grass Knot, as Thunder, Surf, or Hidden Power Fire will maul it. However, a +1 Dragon Pulse will 3HKO Forretress from either of the twins, making Forretress a shaky check at best.</p>

    <p>Stealth Rock can be used over Spikes or Toxic Spikes on more offensive teams lacking another entry hazard supporter. But, in most cases it's a waste of Forretress's potential, especially considering the range of other Pokemon that can also set up Stealth Rock.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>As previously mentioned, Forretress is fairly limited outside of the listed options. Shed Shell is an option to escape from Magnezone, but Forretress will greatly miss the Leftovers recovery. Forretress learns Reflect and Light Screen, and can thus make decent use of a dual screens set, but it should usually opt to Volt Switch out or simply lay more entry hazards rather than use a screen. Under Light Screen and rain, however, Forretress can be a tough nut to crack with even Fire-type attacks. Protect can be used in the last slot to scout for foes carrying a surprise Fire-type attack, such as Espeon and Groudon, and also eases prediction when dealing with Choice item users, but the listed moves are generally more useful, and Forretress already has many move options as it is. Earthquake can be used to catch Heatran, Magnezone, and Reshiram on the switch. A Custap Berry in conjunction with Sturdy can allow Forretress to function as a sort of suicide lead, but that is usually a waste of its defensive potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Magic Bounce Espeon and Xatu with Hidden Power Fire are probably Forretress's biggest counters; they reflect its attempts to set up entry hazards and can OHKO with a 4x super effective Hidden Power. Tentacruel can also be annoying, as it absorbs Toxic Spikes, has access to Rapid Spin, and can scare Forretress off with a potentially rain-boosted Scald, while Forretress can do little back bar Earthquake. Forretress has trouble with any Pokemon carrying a Fire-type move as well, as most of them will OHKO if rain is not present; Reshiram, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, and Mewtwo are the most common users. Although Groudon is normally setup fodder for Forretress, it will sometimes run Fire Punch or Overheat to fry the bug. Both Ho-Oh and Reshiram can switch in at will and threaten Forretress with their STAB Fire-type attacks, only really fearing Stealth Rock damage or Toxic. Kyogre has little to fear from any of Forretress's attacks, and can drown Forretress with its Water-type STAB moves. Finally, although rare in today's metagame, Heatran can roast Forretress with Lava Plume or Fire Blast, and Poison Heal Gliscor can freely come in and either Taunt Forretress or set up a Substitute.</p>


    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  23. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Ruiner of Alph

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,338
    Checking now, though I'll only be able to do a C/P version.

    c/p (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>Much has changed with the shift to BW, but Forretress is still Forretress. It remains exceptionally good at what it does, namely providing entry hazard and Rapid Spin support, but outside of that role, it is extremely limited. BW brought it a few buffs in Volt Switch and the improvement to Sturdy, which now acts as a psuedo-Focus Sash. Sadly, threats such as Reshiram and Magic Bounce Xatu have also come into play, making life a bit harder. All in all, play safe, support Forretress well, and watch as your opponent is shredded and poisoned at every turn by layer after layer of entry hazards. Be a bit careless and predict wrongly, though, and shudder as your bagworm is wiped out every match without fail.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Toxic Spikes
    move 4: Pain Split / Toxic / Volt Switch
    item: Leftovers
    nature : Calm
    evs : 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Forretress's amazing Bug / Steel typing, great overall bulk, and access to Rapid Spin, as well as all three entry hazards, make it a great choice for a support role on nearly any team. Due to the lack of Pokemon able to reliably set them up, Spikes is a massively useful move on Forretress in Ubers. Furthermore, there are a wide range of grounded Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes, but affected by Spikes, such as Steel Arceus, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Dialga; this makes Spikes a great move to use on Forretress. Toxic Spikes are the second hazard that Forretress will often use; they can be incredibly dangerous in Ubers due to very threatening Pokemon such as Darkrai, Mewtwo, Blaziken, Palkia, and the majority of Calm Mind Arceus formes (most notably Ghost) being put on a timer once poisoned; note, however, that Calm Mind Arceus inflicted with only regular poison can still pull off a sweep. All weather starters are also vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, making them an effective weapon in winning the weather war. With the prevalence of Choice items and Draco Meteor users, Forretress will find plenty of opportunities to set up its hazards. Rapid Spin is where Forretress carves out its biggest niche. Thanks to its great resistances to common Ghost-, Dark-, Ice-, and Dragon-type attacks, it is able to consistently switch in and remove entry hazards, allowing Pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Reshiram to come into play without losing huge chunks of their health. Bulky grounded Pokemon such as Groudon, Palkia, most Arceus formes, and Chansey also appreciate Forretress's ability to remove the Toxic Spikes that greatly reduce their staying power.</p>

    <p>Pain Split, Toxic, and Volt Switch are mainly filler options, but they have their uses. The first allows Forretress to switch into Choice-locked resisted moves more recklessly; and, perhaps more importantly, makes Forretress one of the best Ferrothorn counters in the game. Ferrothorn can only significantly damage Forretress with Iron Barbs and Leech Seed, but with Pain Split Forretress can set up hazards and Rapid Spin on Ferrothorn to its heart's content. Toxic allows Forretress to cripple spinblockers and walls such as Lugia and Ho-Oh, which are immune to Toxic Spikes, and also punishes Arceus formes that might try to set up on Forretress. Finally, Volt Switch lets Forretress act as a scout after it has laid a few entry hazards, and can be useful for maintaining offensive momentum, or even setting up a Pursuit trap on a careless spinblocker.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Max HP and Special Defense along with a Special Defense-boosting nature is necessary to make the most of Forretress's relatively low special bulk, as it needs all it can get to take the Draco Meteors and Ice Beams thrown around in Ubers. Leftovers is the item of choice, as the passive recovery helps Forretress to shrug off weak or resisted attacks. Keep in mind, however, that even with full investment, neutral special attacks still take a fair chunk out of Forretress's health, so ensure that you play off of its numerous resistances.</p>

    <p>A more physically defensive spread (252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD with a Bold or a Relaxed nature) can be used with Toxic to check certain physical attackers. This spread ensures that Forretress is never 2HKOed by +1 Outrage from Dragon Dance Rayquaza. However, Forretress will still struggle against even non-Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus packing Earthquake; as such, a spread of 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD can be used to always avoid the 2HKO from a +2 Adamant Arceus using Earthquake. Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus still possesses the ability to 2HKO after Stealth Rock with Earthquake almost all the time (guaranteed for Adamant, even without Stealth Rock); at this point, one should just use a fully physically defensive spread. Forretress also struggles with Lum Berry variants of Extreme Killer Arceus, which can absorb one Toxic and will beat Forretress more often than not, even if the Forretress is packing Pain Split.</p>

    <p>A Ghost-type is a mandatory teammate to block Rapid Spin, which can otherwise waste all of Forretress's hard work; the Giratina formes are probably the best, and both have good synergy with Forretress, though Ghost Arceus makes a great choice as well. Blissey and Chansey can take most neutral or super effective special attacks directed at Forretress in stride, while supporting the team with Wish or Stealth Rock. In return, Forretress can easily set up on many of the physical attackers that threaten Chansey or Blissey, such as Garchomp and Groudon that lack a Fire-type move. Palkia can switch into many Pokemon that often come in on Forretress, such as Choice Specs Kyogre, Reshiram, Giratina-O, opposing Palkia, and Mewtwo, and threaten them with Thunder or its STAB Dragon-type attacks, and thus makes a great teammate. Sweepers such as most Calm Mind Arceus and Kyogre love having Forretress as a partner to both set up and remove Toxic Spikes. Ho-Oh and Reshiram enjoy Rapid Spin support, and can easily switch into most Fire-type attacks for Forretress; in return, it can tank Dragon-type moves for Reshiram and come in on defensive Groudon without a Fire-type move, which is a constant threat to Ho-Oh. Groudon also forms a potent physically defensive core with Forretress, and can set up Stealth Rock, phaze with Roar or Dragon Tail to rack up entry hazard damage, and scare Dialga off with STAB Earthquake. Kyogre can lessen Forretress's Fire-type weakness thanks to Drizzle and destroy Fire Punch Groudon, Ho-Oh, and select Arceus formes. Zekrom can stop defensive Kyogre and Ho-Oh with its STAB Bolt Strike. Dialga is also a great teammate, as it can come in after Forretress uses Volt Switch on the Giratina formes looking to spinblock, scaring them off and setting up Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>Despite the third slot being dedicated to a secondary hazard most of the time, Forretress can employ an additional utility move for fourth slot. Pain Split + Volt Switch allows Forretress to stay healthy and gain momentum. Pain Split + Toxic allows it to check Extreme Killer Arceus. Gyro Ball, Hidden Power Ice, and Payback also have their uses. Gyro Ball provides Forretress with a usably meaty STAB attack, and can hit common switch-ins such as Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Giratina-O for reasonable damage. It also gets a super effective hit on Kyurem-W, 2HKOing it even without Stealth Rock, although a Choice Specs-boosted Draco Meteor 2HKOs Forretress in return. Hidden Power Ice gives Forretress the ability to counter Gliscor, provided that Forretress is healthy, and a strong attack against Rayquaza and Shaymin-S. Payback can be used to check Latias and Latios, but Forretress can only switch into sets with Dragon Pulse and Grass Knot, as Thunder, Surf or Hidden Power Fire will maul it. However, a +1 Dragon Pulse will 3HKO Forretress from either of the twins, making Forretress a shaky check at best.</p>

    <p>Stealth Rock can be used over Spikes or Toxic Spikes on more offensive teams lacking another entry hazard supporter. However, in most cases, it's a waste of Forretress's potential, especially considering the range of other Pokemon that can also set up Stealth Rock.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>As previously mentioned, Forretress is fairly limited outside of the listed options. Shed Shell is an option to escape from Magnezone, but Forretress will greatly miss the Leftovers recovery. Forretress learns Reflect and Light Screen, and can thus make decent use of a dual screens set, but it should usually opt to Volt Switch out or simply lay more entry hazards rather than use a screen. Under Light Screen and rain, however, Forretress can be a tough nut to crack with even Fire-type attacks. Protect can be used in the last slot to scout for foes carrying a surprise Fire-type attack, such as Espeon and Groudon, and also eases prediction when dealing with Choice item users, but the listed moves are generally more useful, and Forretress already has many move options as it is. Earthquake can be used to catch Heatran, Magnezone, and Reshiram on the switch. A Custap Berry in conjunction with Sturdy can allow Forretress to function as a sort of suicide lead, but that is usually a waste of its defensive potential.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Magic Bounce Espeon and Xatu with Hidden Power Fire are probably Forretress's biggest counters; they reflect its attempts to set up entry hazards and can OHKO with a 4x super effective Hidden Power. Tentacruel can also be annoying, as it absorbs Toxic Spikes, has access to Rapid Spin, and can scare Forretress off with a potentially rain-boosted Scald, while Forretress can do little back bar Earthquake. Forretress has trouble with any Pokemon carrying a Fire-type move as well, as most of them will OHKO if rain is not present; Reshiram, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, and Mewtwo are the most common users. Although Groudon is normally setup fodder for Forretress, it will sometimes run Fire Punch or Overheat to fry the bug. Both Ho-Oh and Reshiram can switch in at will and threaten Forretress with their STAB Fire-type attacks, only really fearing Stealth Rock damage or Toxic. Kyogre has little to fear from any of Forretress's attacks, and can drown Forretress with its Water-type STAB moves. Finally, although rare in today's metagame, Heatran can roast Forretress with Lava Plume or Fire Blast, and Poison Heal Gliscor can freely come in and either Taunt Forretress or set up a Substitute.</p>

    Well done, Big Poppy. Not much changed, really ^.^
    [gp]2/2[/gp]

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