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Ubers Forretress

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by WreckDra, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    QC: 3/3 (Sweep, Blue Jay, Melee Mewtwo)
    GP:3/3 (SuperJOCKE, Redew, Calm Pokemaster)
    DONE


    [​IMG]
    Overview
    ########

    Forretress is the definition of a team supporter. It sports an excellent defensive typing, with ten resistances and one weakness along with the amazing ability Sturdy. Forretress's movepool is also vast with support options, including three out of four entry hazards, the extremely useful Rapid Spin, and an array of other options that give it a solid amount of utility on a large amount of teams. BW bestowed Volt Switch upon Forretress, giving it the ability to sponge a physical hit with its respectable 75/140 physical bulk and then bring in another Pokemon for free, which only adds to its plethora of useful options. XY wasn't very kind to Forretress, however. The buff to Defog now forces Forretress to compete with many support Arceus formes as well as Defog Skarmory, while also making Forretress's own hazards more difficult to keep in play. XY also nerfed Forretress's Steel typing, removing its resistances to Dark and Ghost-type moves which doesn't stack well with Forretress's mediocre special bulk. Despite all of these negatives XY brought to Forretress, it actually benefited a considerable amount from the disappearance of popular bulky Ghost-types, which allows it to Rapid Spin more freely. Forretress also ruins other support Pokemon that came this generation such as Klefki and the new Arceus-Fairy with the added bonus of not being absolute Mega Gengar bait. Forretress still suffers from its old cons though, such as being Taunt bait and 4x weak to common Fire-type coverage. Be aware that despite its shortcomings, Forretress is still extremely viable in Ubers, as Spikes and Toxic alone can do a large amount of damage to any team.


    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Volt Switch / Gyro Ball
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    nature: Calm


    Moves
    ========
    Rapid Spin will always be one of the most useful moves in Forretress's arsenal and should thus be considered on any Forretress set. The same goes for Spikes, as Forretress is one of the best users of them, and it also lures in support Arceus for Forretress to Toxic. Toxic is used precisely for these Arceus variants, barring Steel and Poison of course, and it is also useful against other bulky Pokemon without Rest such as Groudon, Giratina-O, and Lugia. The last slot is a slight toss-up between Volt Switch and Gyro Ball. Volt Switch is extremely useful for getting a teammate in safely, escaping Shadow Tag users, and stealing offensive momentum if Forretress is walling the opposition. However, Gyro Ball is also a candidate for this slot, as it is Forretress's best hope of dealing direct damage, 2HKOing Mega Gengar instead of just freeing Forretress from its Shadow Tag. It will also 2HKO any offensive Xerneas variant. Make sure to use a Sassy nature with Gyro Ball. Toxic Spikes is an amazing move and Forretress is one of the best users of them as well. Either Spikes or Toxic can be substituted for Toxic Spikes. Forretress also has a recovery option, outside of Rest, in Pain Split, which will help it stick around longer with the addition of wearing threats with high HP down faster, but Forretress generally has no room for it. All in all, your moveset should depend on what your team needs as Forretress is a supporter with many options.


    Set Details
    ========
    Leftovers gives Forretress a bit more staying power as well as a chance to reactivate Sturdy should Forretress take any premature damage. The EVs are there to patch up Forretress's lackluster Special Defense in the specially based Ubers environment, while its typing and natural physical bulk are all it needs on the physical side. On the contrary, a physically defensive spread could be used along with Pain Split and Toxic to take on Swords Dance Arceus variants better, as well as many other threats such as Mega Kangaskhan, Rock Polish Groudon without Swords Dance, and Landorus-T. Once again, Forretress is a team supporter, so the set you choose should be based around what suits your team best.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Dedicated spinblockers are less common in Ubers because Defog is the most common method of removing hazards. Should your opponent carry a spinblocker while you have hazards up, using Volt Switch is generally the correct and safest play although poisoning an Arceus-Ghost or Giratina-O switch-in will make them much easier to handle. Forretress can actually set up Spikes after poisoning a Giratina-O and force it to take more Toxic damage as it stays in to Defog. Spikes should be used when your opponent is going to switch or after Forretress has poisoned a support Arceus that can't defeat it, such as Grass Arceus. When an opponent is going to switch, make sure to note how threatening Forretress's switch-in is. If it can be handled easily, then begin to set up Spikes, but if your team is greatly threatened by it, then using Volt Switch and switching into a Pokemon that can check it will be your best course of action. Lastly, Forretress has no recovery outside of the unreliable Pain Split, so make sure to keep it in good heath for as long as possible, as the Spikes and Toxic it carries as well as its ability to Rapid Spin are invaluable in most situations.


    Team Options
    ========
    Forretress is a team supporter and should only exist to help its teammates, but there are a few Pokemon that can make conditions more ideal for Forretress to do its work. The first teammate is Kyogre, as it reduces Forretress's weakness to Fire-type attacks greatly for five turns with the rain that it brings. Forretress also loves receiving Wishes from Wish passers such as Sylveon, Blissey, and Chansey. Tyranitar, Rock Arceus, and Water Arceus all have amazing type synergy with Forretress, and the former also helps Forretress stack on residual damage with sandstorm. Yveltal deserves a special mention as it can remove spinblockers for Forretress, while in return, Forretress can remove Stealth Rock to make Yveltal's switches safer. Mega Gengar can trap and remove Defog users so Forretress's entry hazards aren't wasted before any significant damage is done.

    Forretress best supports fragile Pokemon such as Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, Darkrai, and the previously mentioned Mega Gengar by setting up Spikes to net them KOs that they normally wouldn't get and using its slow Volt Switch to tank a hit and bring them in safely. Forretress also takes priority moves aimed at them very well. Lugia loves having Stealth Rock off its side of the field whilst having Spikes on the opponents side in order to have its phazing shenanigans pack some punch. Ho-Oh adores having Stealth Rock off the field and can shrug off any Fire-type move aimed at Forretress. Fairy-types can use two of Forretress's most dangerous switch-ins, Palkia and Yveltal, as setup bait. Forretress generally does better on offensively inclined teams that are able to apply enough pressure to Defog and Rapid Spin users to keep them off the field or punish a turn of clearing entry hazards with a sweep. The Spikes Forretress provides will aid sweepers in tearing apart teams, and Toxic can help wear down walls and tanks so sweepers can break through them easier.


    Other Options
    ########
    Forretress has plenty of other options, but most are either done better by other support Pokemon, or are very situational. Reflect and Light Screen, with Light Clay as an item, can be utilized to make a set-up sweeper's life easier, but Defog now removes dual screens so keeping them up is a hassle. This is also done better by Klefki with its ability, Prankster. Stealth Rock is always an option, but many other Pokemon are able to set it up better, while Spikes is a more unique option on Forretress. Earthquake can be a nasty surprise for an unsuspecting Heatran or Mega Lucario while also 2HKOing Mega Gengar, but Volt Switch or Gyro Ball are generally the better options. Use a Careful nature alongside Earthquake. Counter can turn matchups against Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus and Swords Dance Ground Arceus on their heads and can even be a nasty surprise for Blaziken and Ho-Oh if Sturdy is active, but Forretress generally doesn't have room for it, and it is very situational.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh can roast any Forretress with Sacred Fire and fears nothing from Spikes and little from Toxic as it regains its lost HP with Regenerator. Substitute variants don't fear Toxic or the rare Counter at all.

    **Blaziken and Mega-Blaziken**: These two will also roast Forretress with their Fire-type STAB moves, but both of them dislike Toxic cutting into their already non-existent longevity. All except for Substitute variants should be wary of Counter if Sturdy is active. Substitute variants also set up on Forretress easily.

    **Taunt Users**: Forretress hates Taunt users such as Gliscor, Yveltal, Heatran, and defensive Mewtwo as they stop it from doing anything useful and can wear it down with attacks or status.

    **Mega Lucario**: Mega Lucario is immune to poison and resists Gyro Ball. It can 2HKO Forretress with Close Combat. It fears Counter and is 2HKOed by Earthquake, however.

    **Bulky Steel-types**: Dialga, Aegislash, Arceus-Steel, and Heatran are good examples of Steel-types that Forretress fears and cannot beat as two of them generally carry Fire-type moves and one other also functions as a spinblocker. Arceus-Steel can set up on Forretress as well.

    **Kyogre**: Any variant can muscle its way through Forretress, while defensive variants can Rest off Toxic.

    **Arceus-Poison**: Forretress cannot beat it, and it can freely set up on Forretress.

    **Reshiram**: Reshiram can check Forretress with its Fire-type STAB, and it ignores Sturdy with Turboblaze.

    **Fire-type coverage**: Anything with a decent Fire-type attack can check Forretress after Sturdy is broken.

    Skeleton (open)


    Overview
    ########
    • Has access to the useful Rapid Spin
    • Has access to 3/4 entry hazards (not Sticky Web)
    • Great defensive typing and amazing Defense
    • Very wide support movepool, giving it a lot of utility
    • has the slowest Volt Switch in the game
    • faces a lot of competition for a team slot
    • lost resistances to Dark and Ghost Type Attacks
    • is quad weak to common Fire type coverage
    • hates Taunt like no other
    • has low Special bulk and offenses

    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Volt Switch/Gyro Ball
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpDef
    nature: Calm


    Moves
    ========
    • Rapid Spin is Forretress' main utility for removing hazards from your side of the field
    • Spikes is a very useful entry hazard and can put a lot of pressure on mostly grounded teams. This also lures in Defog Arceus for Forry to Toxic
    • Toxic is Forretress' primary way of dealing damage and crippling many threats in the Uber tier
    • Volt Switch is very useful for switch initiative, shaking Shadow Tag users, or bringing in sweepers safely
    • Gyro Ball is useful nailing offensive Xerneas and 2HKOing Mega Gengar. It is Forry's best hope of doing any direct damage, use a Sassy nature with 0 Speed IVs with it
    • Toxic Spikes are an amazing entry hazard and Forretress is an amazing setter of them but it is redundant with Toxic or Spikes. Toxic Spikes could be used over either of these though
    • Pain Split is Forretress best form of recovery and it also helps Forry wear down many high HP threats. Forretress usually doesn't have room for it though


    Set Details
    ========
    • 248 HP/8 Def/252 SpDef with a Careful nature is Forry's best ev's for taking on the Ubers environment
    • Leftovers are for the built in recovery
    • A physically defensive spread can be used to check Swords Dance Arceus variants among other Pokes that the specially defensive spread can't
    • The move set should be dependent on your team needs as Forretress has useful support options out the ears but only 4 slots to put them in


    Usage Tips
    ========
    • Volt Switch out on suspected Spinblocker switch ins if your opponent has hazards up, although getting Toxic onto an Arceus-Ghost or Giratina-O will make your life easier. Forretress can also set up Spikes on Physical Giratina-O all the while forcing it to stay in to use Defog while it takes Toxic damage before Forry is eventually burned and Dragon Tailed out
    • Spikes should generally be used on turns your opponent switches or on mons that are immune to Toxic, but can't touch Forretress. Use discretion when an opponent is going to switch, as Volt Switching will be more beneficial if the your opponents switch in to Forry will threaten your team greatly.
    • Preserve Forretress' health as much as possible as it has no reliable recovery method and the Toxic and Spikes it carries can be useful against many threats in Ubers
    Team Options
    ========
    • Forretress enjoys having it's Fire weakness being reduced by Kyogre's rain for 5 turns
    • Tyranitar has amazing synergy with Forretress and brings sand to aid the Bug in Toxic stalling
    • Forretress loves receiving wishes from pokes like Blissey, Sylveon and Chansey
    • Forretress can help fragile pokes like Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S and Darkrai to get in for free with Volt Switch and sponge priority moves aimed at them
    • Arceus-Rock and Water both have excellent type synergy with Forretress
    • Forretress can spin away Stealth Rock for Ho-Oh and the latter can take Fire moves aimed at Forretress like a champ
    • Mega-Gengar can trap and remove Defoggers so Forretress is free to spike without fear of it's work being wasted
    • Yveltal loves a Stealth Rock free field and also removes Spin Blockers for Forry with relative ease
    • Fairies prey on the two of Forretress' most dangerous Switch ins being Palkia, Yveltal


    Other Options
    ########
    • Dual Screens with Light Clay can be used to support a team but this is better left to Klefki
    • Stealth Rock is an option, but there are a plethora of mons that use it better
    • Earthquake can be utilized to make Heatran, Mega-Lucario, and Mega-Gengar all think twice about switching in. Use a Careful Nature
    • Counter can surprise physical attackers that Forretress can't beat with the SpDef set like Life Orb E-Killer and SD Arceus-Ground. It can also surprise and KO an unsuspecting Blaziken or Ho-oh looking to prey on the bug so long as Sturdy is intact

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    • Ho-Oh
    • Blaziken and Mega-Chicken especially with Substitute
    • Bulky Taunt users such as Yveltal, Gliscor, Heatran, and Stalltwo( this doesn't like Gyro Ball though)
    • Bulky Steel types with strong neutral/Fire attacks like Dialga, Heatran, and Aegislash
    • Mega-Lucario if Forry isn't carrying Earthquake
    • Arceus-Dark with Refresh or Substitute
    • Arceus-Steel
    • Arceus-Poison
    • Kyogre
    • Reshiram can check Forretress with Sturdy active due to Turbo Blaze
    • Anything with a decent Fire move or strong neutral special attack can check Forretress after Sturdy is broken
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2014
  2. Piexplode

    Piexplode

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    I'm not sure whether you know the meta, or whether forretress is viable, but I'll start by saying remove fire fang mawile from the checks and counters, because I know that sure as hell isn't viable.
  3. Piexplode

    Piexplode

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    Ok just wanted confirming because the analysis so far didn't confirm that to me.

    The rest of it looks alright, I'll leave QCs to helping you, I have little else to add.
  4. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    I will update the overview when I take this out of its skeletal version to make sure to point out why Forre is viable although I think I already explained why with the bulleted version already
    I also got rid of Mawile from the Check and Counter list, I have been actively playing in Ubers since Gen 6 Bank Ubers was implemented on PS but I have not run into a single Mawile even though I know they are around from people telling me about them. I just wanted to cover all angles since I don't know what they run, it was a last minute thought. Thanks for the insight though

    I am very interested in what you have to say Sweep
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  5. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    Alright, I still think it could be cleaner, but it is ready QC1
  6. Sweep

    Sweep (makeup)
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    I've used Forretress a fair amount and it is still very viable IMO. Rapid Spin is better this generation due to the reduction of spinblockers and Volt Switch prevents it from getting trapped by Gengar and friends. Any Sticky Web teams lacking a spinblocker will hate Forretress and Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost (fairly common on Web teams) despises the old Toxic / Pain Split combination. Also, Toxic / Pain Split still dicks with Swords Dance Arceus-Normal, as even Lum variants will lose 1-1 as a +2 Earthquake does not come close to 2HKOing Forretress. Overheat does beat Forretress but it is relatively rare. Alternatively, it can run a Specially Defensive set that can finish off Geomancy Xerneas with Gyro Ball, unless Xerneas has Hidden Power Fire AND Sturdy is broken. Hazards are still viable, too. Toxic Spikes dick with many Defog users, though Forretress does not fit it easily. Spikes are still great, even if other Pokemon (Car Keys, Deoxys-Attack) find more opportunities to set them up. That isn't to say Forretress is great in this metagame. It is major Yveltal bait if it tries to set up hazards, it really cannot do anything it it while getting crushed back by Dark Pulse. Taunt also dicks with Forretress, often forcing it to use Volt Switch. Unlike Scizor, it is not a good Xerneas check even though it can take a nice chunk out of it with Gyro Ball, since even Careful variants will easily be 2HKOed after Xerneas sets up. It can do enough to pick off weakened ones or allow a priority user to pick Xerneas off, but the inability to directly check it is a bummer. Overall, Forretress isn't as good as it was last generation but still has a lot of utility and can check key threats it the metagame, depending on what EV spread it chooses to use.

    Scratch the double hazards set, Forretress cannot beat Defog users 1-1 so any attempts by Forretress to hazard stack will often be in vain. Forretress will not realistically get to set up hazards as easily as last generation since Giratina-A / Ghost Arceus do not have to come in to block Rapid Spin, giving Forry free hazards. In other words, because this metagame is less centralized around hazards, your opponent will have an easier time pressuring Forretress directly, stopping it from hazard stacking. In conjunction with the Defog buff, and I do not see a place for a hazards-based set this generation. Also note that Toxic / Rapid Spin / Volt Switch are typically too good to pass up. Just stick to one comprehensive set, though it will probably be more detailed than your average set since Forretress has a lot of options and viable EV spreads at its disposal. Other QC are obviously free to chime in, I don't want to dominate discussion!

    Overview

    -Rapid Spin is not particularly rare, though no one would argue the usefulness of the move

    -Replace "Access to Toxic Spikes" with "Access to all three hazards." I do agree that Toxic Spikes are cool due to their ability to cripple Defog Arceus, but Forretress really doesn't want to carry both Toxic AND Toxic Spikes

    -Add the phrase "giving it a lot of utility" after the fourth bullet point "It has a wide support movepool (insert comma)"

    -Add a bullet point about how much Forretress hates getting Taunted! This was a good overview overall.

    Support

    1. Change the name of the moveset to "support," since Rapid Spin and (possibly) a hazard give it immense utility for its team. Forretress can sometimes Toxic stall with Pain Split, but that isn't Forry's main calling card. "Toxic Staller" is also a very clunky name.

    2. I don't entirely disagree with the given EV spread, but I don't agree with all of the slashes. Copy and Paste this IMO:

    name: Support
    move 1: Toxic
    move 2: Rapid Spin / Spikes
    move 3: Volt Switch
    move 4: Pain Split
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpDef
    nature: Careful

    Basically, the only two moves that it must have are Volt Switch and Toxic. Pain Split is strongly recommended, though Forretress can probably survive without it on defensive teams with Wish support. Pain Split is big for helping check Calm Mind Arceus formes such as Electric though, so I personally would leave it unslashed. Rapid Spin is also great but not all teams need it (though its the biggest niche Forretress has over Mega Scizor IMO, since you can spin on stuff that Scizor cannot Defog on like Mega Mewtwo X, Defensive Yveltal, Thundurus, and others). Spikes are an excellent alternative if you can afford to drop one of those moves. Basically, Forretress can adapt its moveset to fit team needs. Stress that in your analysis.

    3. Remove the Stealth Rock mention, a lot of viable Pokemon get the move and set it up more reliably than Forretress does. I didn't slash Gyro Ball but it's very viable for bopping Xerneas. Mention 0 speed IV's and a Sassy nature on any set running Gyro Ball (though the further Speed reduction is not necessary on sets lacking the move, as its Volt Switch is slow as it is).

    4. Likewise, remove the Sassy nature mention in Set Details. Also, don't stress how Specially Defensive Forretress "beats" physical Arceus; it doesn't. Both Lum Berry and Life Orb Arceus can beat this variant of Forretress, though you might still be able to beat Leftovers and Silk Scarf variants. Also, Swords Dance Ground Arceus absolutely stomps you.

    5. Instead, mention the possibility of a physically defensive spread in Set Details :p. This variant DOES beat Lum Berry Arceus-Normal, as well as Jolly Swords Dance Arceus-Ground, Mega Kangaskhan, and Arceus-Ghost. It takes prediction to beat Life Orb Extremekiller, but Forretress can still annoy it. The problem with this spread is that it doesn't check much else, though it can check Band Scizor, Earth Plate Landorus-T, Physical Genesect, and Scarf Zekrom (sort of, avoids the 2HKO from Bolt Strike), and Physical Genesect. Unfortunately, ALL of those Pokemon have access to U-Turn / Volt Switch if they anticipate Forretress coming in to check them. Oh, this also checks Stealth Rock Life Orb Terrakion, making Sticky Web teams ever sadder. Still, that isn't a very big list. Calm Mind Arceus formes are common and Specially Defensive checks them, while still using its naturally high physical bulk to loosely check some physical threats I mentioned. You can also switch into Life Orb Deoxys-A lacking Fire Punch, so long you don't take a Psycho Boost and a Superpower back-to-back. Fortunately, Deoxys-A usually carry Low Kick, and Psycho Boost + Knock Off isn't quite enough to kill Forretress, doing a maximum of 98% damage after Leftovers recovery. Forretress might look like a great Deoxys-A check, but really nothing is, and Forry does better against it than almost any other Pokemon lacking priority. You also check Scarf and Expert Belt Xerneas lacking HP Fire (Life Orb is too strong to switch into). TL;DR specially defensive and physically defensive both have their uses, but I would keep specially defensive as the listed EV spread for now since it can deal with some of the physical threats I mentioned, but the physically defensive spread cannot deal with CM Arceus. Other QC are free to disagree with me.

    6. The first point in Usage Tips is good, especially when Forretress is used on offensively-inclined teams. Add some detail to the second point though; what can Forretress do with the free turns it gets from spinblockers that come in. Should it simply cripple the ghost with Toxic or set up Spikes if you know the ghost lacks Defog? Perhaps Toxic, THEN set up Spikes? I'll let you talk about the strategy here, unless you need my help (I feel like a Construcivist teacher). Also, DEFINITELY add a bullet point about knowing when to use Pain Split, as newer users who read the analysis may be unfamiliar with when to use it. Make sure to mention that it is a solid option if Forretress is threatened to get 2HKOed, so long your opponent's Pokemon is afflicted with Toxic and still relatively high on health. Forretress definitely does not want to give a Calm Mind Arceus free health because it used Pain Split at the wrong time! Usage Tips section needs work and detail.

    7. The Team Options section looks good. Mention that Forretress can tank priority well when you talk about frail sweepers as teammates.

    Other Options

    -Mention Toxic Spikes (an excellent move on it save for the fact that it is redundant with Toxic) and Stealth Rock (a dreadful move on it) in this section

    -Earthquake in conjunction with Volt Switch allows Forretress to torture Mega Gengar lacking Hidden Power Fire, but Gyro Ball smacks it for good damage anyway...EQ also hits Aegislash and Heatran on the switch (chip damage on the former, strong damage on the latter). Finally, it stops Mega Lucario from freely setting up on you.

    -Counter lel, fuck Life Orb EKiller and SD Ground Arceus. This also ambushes Geomancy Xerneas if you can preserve Sturdy or if Xern lacks HP Fire and Forry is very near full health.

    -Payback is cute for wearing down Giratina-O that try to spinblock you, but probably not worth a mention. Giratina-A laughs very hard at this sadly.

    Checks & Counters

    Blaziken needs an explicit mention. Separate Ho-Oh from Lugia and Yveltal and make it the #1 counter. Kyogre destroys Forretress...I'd also consider adding Mega Lucario to the list, because it can set up for free unless Forretress carries Earthquake. But yeah, Substitute / Taunt / Fire moves all harass the bagworm.


    Make the changes and I will approve this. I feel strongly that Forretress is still viable this generation.
  7. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    You seriously can't slash hazards with spin. Forretress has utility in supporting the team with both traits, and cannot check offensive threats effectively at all. Any attempt to make such a thing happen is pointless and I would rather back Forretress with solid core and rely on Volt Switch to build momentum against common switch ins and predicted Taunts. A slow Volt Switch vs a Defog Arceus can bring in stuff like Mega Gengar, Kyogre or MMY, all can proceed to put pressure on the opposing team. This is a much better method to put pressure than Toxicing switches, which is very massive, and Forretress won't fit on stall this generation anyway (since it can't check offensive threats well). One could argue that Volt Switch and Toxic are redundant in the sense that it's the only way Forretress can fuck around with its switch ins. This is partly true, but Volt Switch is a million times better due to how easy it is to bring in bigger threats via it. With correct team-mates, you should have no problem replacing Toxic, which is very meh as good teams have a status absorber/something that doesn't mind toxic (and a good player scouting for Toxic can be met with a much safer Volt Switch) anyway. I'd say Toxic has great merit vs Groudon and Lando-T, though, however you wanna spin on the latter usually.

    tldr: Spikes needs on slot. Spin needs one slot.
  8. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    Most of Sweep's changes are in place but I am not sure if the "what to do while Spin Blockers switch in" explanation belongs in the skeleton but it would definitely make sense in the final version of this analysis. I did put one in anyway though but it does make the Skeleton seem less Skeleton-like. I'm still not sure how Counter stops GeoXern though so I didn't add that or the Payback option
    I'm uneasy about slashing Spin with Spikes. I'm thinking of slashing Spikes with Pain Split just because there are some (though not very many) situations where PS only helps but isn't necessary.

    I also felt that it was a bit wrong to slash Rapid Spin but Spikes could very well be slashable (just on something other than spin) as some Balanced teams with Forretress lack the offensive types and power needed to keep certain types of Defoggers and Spinners under pressure. Forretress also requires Toxic to function as a stand alone Poke, otherwise it is relying on its team to do almost everything

    I'll see what I can do about Forre's nightmarish 4MSS

    More imputs are always welcome ^.^
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  9. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    -spin
    -hazard
    -anti defog
    -anti gengar

    More or less what forry's build should be imo. This more or less translates into Spin, Spikes/Tspikes, Toxic, Gyro/volt
    although I guess forry can get away with shed shell if you really want pain split but i feel that's not quite worth slashing.
  10. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    All right, here is what I came up with after reading all of your posts:

    Support (open)

    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes/Pain Split (edit: Pain Split will only be in Set Details)
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Volt Switch/Gyro Ball
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpDef
    nature: Careful


    I know it doesn't have everything that everybody wants but that is why the fourth bullet point of "Set Details" exists (TY Sweep). The reason I slashed in Pain Split with Spikes is because I find times where I don't need Spikes on a team and it just ends up being a wasted slot when I want Pain Split to help Forretress better ruin somethings survivability or out right check it if possible. You also don't want Pain Split slashed on the same slot as Toxic otherwise its usefulness goes out the window (this is a problem I had with the 5th gen analysis) not to mention Toxic is a MUST on just about any Forretress nowadays. I also found Volt Switch to be a must on Forretress just due to its sheer usefulness but Gyro Ball can also be used as it 2HKOs Mega Gengar and ruins any offensive Xerneas' day so I slashed the two together even though I think Volt Switch is the better option 99% of the time. Toxic Spikes and Toxic are redundant as hell and Toxic Spikes already has a mention in the OO category, but I could move it "Set Details" if need be because the move is amazing and Forre is one of the few things that can reliably set it up. I also unslashed Rapid Spin because teams that don't require Rapid Spin support that are using Forretress are very specific on how Forretress should operate within them and are few in number. This also falls under the Bullet Point 4 of "Set Details".

    Hope this settles with everyone nicely

    I won't implement this unless the feedback is mostly positive
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  11. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    no stop slashing around with hazards ffs, you need them

    pain split is a waste when you can't check offensive threats anyway, all you can do is troll defog arc, but you might as well toxic them on the switch and stall with something else. pain split was good last gen because spinblockers with high hp had incentive switching in on forry as well as the prevalence of ferrothorn. both of there factors aren't as important anymore and you still need hazards to give defog arc and incentive to switch in (so you can toxic or build momentum on them).
  12. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    I will move this to set details then and unslash Spikes

    Edit: Removed Pain Split entirely from the analysis (I'm not sure if this is too extreme)
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  13. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    I implemented the set anyway with Hack's changes just because I really did not like the slash on Rapid Spin just because of how team situational it is, i also realized how team situational Pain Split was as I normally bring LO Deo-A with E-speed or Banded Scizor with Forretress and Toxic + Pain Split brings some pretty dangerous pokes into their priority range. I won't mention Pain Split in the Set Details or on the main set though because it really only falls under bullet point 4 because of how team reliant it is. I don't think it deserves its own mention it in Other Options.

    I also made some small ordering changes and put some more detail in the Moves section
  14. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Overview
    Mention the poor special bulk and offenses in the Overview.

    Main Set
    Toxic Spikes should be a Moves mentions imo. It's not good enough to warrant a slash since it's kinda redundant with Spikes, but if a team particularly wants Toxic Spikes I don't see why not. Pain Split should be too I think (and Sweep liked it), just mention that it's difficult to fit since Forry often needs the other moves (usually a teammate can compensate missing some move though). Also don't call Volt Switch a must (else it wouldn't be slashed). Mention that Gyro is Forry's only real hope of accomplishing damage in general. Expand the usage tips; more on when to Spike or Rapid Spin. Also remove the first usage tip, it sounds a lot like Toxic stalling is Forry's main calling. Mention Gengar as a teammate to remove Defog users and allow Forry to Spike freely. Mention Yveltal as a mon that likes the absence of SR and can deal with Ghosts trying to spinblock. Mention Fairies since you're big fodder for Palkia and Yveltal.

    Other Options
    Looks good.

    Checks & Counters
    Remove the bulky Substitute user mention, you can Spike freely on stuff like Lugia (unless it has Defog, but then it probably can't fit Substitute and you can Toxic it) and you mention Ho-Oh separately. Instead list Gliscor and Heatran as bulky Taunt users. Mention that Giratina/Giratina-O only check it if they run Defog (otherwise you can Spike quite freely on them, especially Giratina).

    I trust that you'll implement these changes appropriately.

    QC: 1/3
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  15. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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  16. Sweep

    Sweep (makeup)
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    QC 2/3
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  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
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    I'm going to skip on Forry this time and come back later but from reading the overview what I think needs to be stressed is how Forry is an anti-metagame pokemon. Yes, role compression is a large part of it too but the biggest appeal comes from fucking over really, really good mons like Klefki, taking advantage of the disappearence of super bulky Ghost-types, and the general trend in current teambuilding to overlook the Spike setters that were so dominant last gen.
  18. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    I slotted most of this into the overview

    I have been noticing more Spike stacking teams while playing recently also so I would like to hold off on talking about the team building trend until we know what the response to this is or if I'm the only one running into it.(I don't want this to have to be revamped right after it is released)

    Perhaps a chat on IRC could clear this up

    I didn't like how little I stressed Forry's viability so I stressed it a bit more along with adding MM2's points.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  19. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    Changed Careful nature to Calm on the main set for more Volt Switch damage output (not that it really matters) and because you will be running Sassy with Gyro Ball anyway.( I honestly don't know why it was Careful in the first place :P, My bad for not catching this earlier)

    Mentioned to use a Careful nature along with EQ in the OO
    Alert to Sounds likes this.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo SO TIRED of listening to your nonsense, you massive gasbag!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    QC Approved 3.3
    [​IMG]
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  21. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Deleting...
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Placeholder.

    EDIT:

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    Overview
    ########

    Forretress is the definition of a team supporter. It sports one of the best defensive typings out there with 10 resistances and one weakness along with the amazing ability Sturdy. The bagworm's Forretress's movepool is also vast with support options including three out of four entry hazards, the extremely useful Rapid Spin, and an array of other options that give this bug it a solid amount of utility on a lot of different teams. Generation five BW also bestowed Volt Switch upon Forretress, giving it the ability to sponge a physical hit with it's its respectable 70/140 physical bulk, and then bring in another team member for free which only adds to its plethora of useful options. Generation six XY wasn't very kind to Forretress though. The buff to Defog now forces Forretress to compete with many support Arceus formes as well as Defog Skarmory,[add] while also making Forry's Forretress's own hazards more difficult to keep in play. Generation six XY also nerfed Forretress's Steel typing, removing its resistances to Dark-[add] and Ghost-[add]type attacks which doesn't stack well with Forretress's mediocre special bulk. Despite all of these negatives generation 6 brought Forretress, Forretress it actually benefited a considerable amount from the disappearance of popular bulky Ghost-types which allows it to Rapid Spin easier more easily. Not to mention that Forretress ruins other support Pokemon that came this generation such as Klefki and the new Arceus-Fairy with the added bonus of not being absolute Mega-Gengar Mega Gengar bait, unlike most of its support brethren. Forretress still suffers from its old cons though, being appetizing Taunt bait and being quad 4x weak to common Fire-type coverage can be a bit annoying at times. Be aware that despite its shortcomings, Forretress is still an extremely viable in the Ubers format and can do a lot of damage to any team with Spikes and Toxic as it watches the opposition suffer from Toxic and get impaled by Spikes.


    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Volt Switch / Gyro Ball
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpDef SpD
    nature: Calm


    Moves
    ========
    Rapid Spin will always be one of the most useful moves in Forretress's arsenal and should always be considered on any Forretress set. The same goes for Spikes,[add] as Forretress is one of the best setters of them and it lures in support Arceus for Forretress to Toxic. Toxic is used precisely for these Arceus variants, barring Steel and Poison of course, and it is also useful against other bulky Pokemon without Rest such as Groudon, Giratina-O, and Lugia. The last slot has is a slight toss-up to it as Volt Switch is extremely useful for getting things in safely, shaking Shadow Tag abusers, and stealing offensive momentum if Forretress is walling the opposition. However, Gyro Ball is also a candidate for this slot as it is Forretress's best hope of dealing direct damage as it 2HKO's 2HKOes Mega Gengar, instead of just freeing Forretress from its Shadow Tag, and will also 2HKO any offensive Xerneas variant. Toxic Spikes is an amazing move and Forretress is one of the best setters of them as well but it is extremely redundant with Toxic or just plain Spikes. Either of these could Spikes or Toxic can be substituted for it though. Forretress also has a recovery option outside of Rest in Pain Split which will help the bagworm it stick around longer with the addition of wearing high HP threats down faster,[add] but Forretress generally has no room for it. All in all, your move set moveset should depend on what your team needs as Forretress is a supporter with many options but it only has four move slots to fit these options into.


    Set Details
    ========
    Leftovers give gives Forretress a bit more staying power and also gives it a chance to reactivate Sturdy should Forry take any premature damage. The EVs are there to patch up Forretress's lack luster Special Defense in the specially based Ubers environment,[add] while its typing and natural physical bulk are all it needs to rely on on the other physical side of the spectrum. On the contrary, a physically defensive spread could be used along with Pain Split and Toxic to take on Swords Dance Arceus variants better,[add] as well as many other threats like Mega Kangaskhan, Rock Polish Groudon without Swords Dance, and Landorus-T. Once again, Forretress is a team supporter, so the set you choose should be based around what suits your team best.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Dedicated spinblockers are less common is Ubers due to Defog being the most used method of removing hazards but should your opponent carry a spinblocker while you have hazards up, Volt Switching is generally the correct and safest play although poisoning and Arceus-Ghost or Giratina-O switch in switchin will make them much easier to handle. Forretress can actually set up Spikes after poisoning a Giratina-O and force it to take more Toxic damage as it stays in to Defog. Spikes should be used when your opponent is going to switch or after Forretress has poisoned a support Arceus that can't touch Forretress, like Arceus-Grass. When an opponent is going to switch, make sure to note how threatening Forretress's switch-in is. If it can be handled easily, then Spike away begin to set up Spikes, but if your team is greatly threatened by it, then Volt Switching into something that can check it will be your best course of action. Lastly, Forretress has no recovery outside of the unreliable Pain Split so make sure to keep it in good heath for as long as possible as the Spikes and Toxic it carries as well as its ability to Rapid Spin are invaluable in most situations.


    Team Options
    ========
    Forretress is a team supporter and should only exist to help its team mates teammates, but there are a few pokes that can make conditions more ideal for Forretress to do its work. The first teammate is Kyogre, as it reduces Forretress's weakness to Fire-type attacks greatly for five turns with the rain that it brings. Forretress also loves receiving Wishes from Wish passers such as Sylveon, Blissey, and Chansey. Tyranitar, Arceus-Rock, and Arceus-Water all have amazing type synergy with Forretress and the former helps Forry stack on residual damage with the sandstorm it brings. Yveltal deserves a special mention as it can remove spinblockers for Forretress and the latter can remove Stealth Rock to make the bacon bird's Yveltal's switches safer. Mega Gengar can trap and remove Defoggers so Forretress's handy work isn't wasted before any significant damage is done.

    Forretress best supports fragile Pokemon like Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, Darkrai, and the aforementioned Mega Gengar by setting Spikes to net them KO's KOs they normally wouldn't have get, and by using its slow Volt Switch to tank a hit and bring them in safely. Forretress also takes priority moves aimed at them like a champ. Lugia loves having Stealth Rock off its side of the field whilst having Spikes on the opponents side in order to have its phazing shenanigans pack some punch. Ho-Oh adores a Stealth Rock free field and can shrug off any Fire move aimed at Forretress like it's nothing. Fairies can use two of Forretress's most dangerous switch-ins, being Palkia and Yveltal, as set up set-up bait. Forretress generally does better on offensively inclined teams that are able to apply enough pressure to Defoggers and Rapid Spinners to keep them off the field, or punish a turn of Spinning/Defog clearing the field with a sweep. The Spikes Forretress provides will aid sweepers in tearing apart teams and Toxic can help wear down walls and tanks so sweepers can push through them easier.


    Other Options
    ########
    Forretress has plenty of other options but most are either done better by other support pokes Pokemon, or are very situational. Reflect and Light Screen with Light Clay as an item can be utilized to make a set-up sweeper's life easy easier, but Defog now removes dual screens so keeping them up is a hassle. This is done better by Klefki anyways with its ability Prankster. Stealth Rock is always an option on anything that gets it, but many other Pokemon set it up better while Spikes is a more unique option on Forretress. Earthquake can be a nasty surprise for an unsuspecting Heatran of or Mega-Lucario while also hitting Mega Gengar, but Volt Switch or Gyro Ball is generally the better options. Use a Careful nature when using Earthquake. Counter can turn matchups against Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus and Swords Dance Arceus-Ground on their heads and can even be a nasty surprise for Blaziken and Ho-Oh if Sturdy is active,[add] but Forretress generally doesn't have room for it and it is very situational.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Ho-Oh**: Can roast any Forretress with its Fire-type STAB and fears nothing from Spikes and little from Toxic as it regains its lost HP with Regenerator. Substitute variants don't fear Toxic or the rare Counter at all.

    **Blaziken and Mega-Blaziken**: These two will also roast Forretress with thier their Fire STAB moves,[add] but dislike Toxic cutting into their already non-existent longevity. All except for Substitute variants should be wary of Counter if Sturdy is active. Substitute variants also set up on Forretress easily.

    **Taunt Users**: Forretress hates taunt users like Gliscor, Yveltal, Heatran, and stalltwo Mewtwo as they stop it from doing hardly anything and can wear it down with attacks or status,[add] respectively.

    **Bulky Steels**: Dialga, Aegislash, Arceus-Steel, and Heatran are good examples of Steel-types that Forretress fears and cannot touch as two of them generally carrie Fire moves and the other also functions as a spinblocker. Arceus-Steel can sets up on Forretress as well.

    **Kyogre**: Any variant can muscle its way through Forretress,[add] while defensive variants can Rest off Toxic.

    **Arceus-Poison**: Forretress cannot touch it,[add] and it can freely set up on Forretress.

    **Reshiram**: Can check Forretress with its Fire-type STAB as it ignores Sturdy with Turboblaze.[add]

    **Fire-type coverage**: Anything with a decent Fire-type attack can check Forretress after Sturdy is broken.


    Ok, so there are a lot of standard mistakes here. Capital letters where they shouldn't be, hyphens missing etc. I suggest checking this out to learn the most common ones.

    There were a lot of instances of "nicknames", like this/the bagworm, as well as shortenings of Forretress' name (Forry). Some might allow the former, but the latter is a no-go. Also, there were a bit of fluff here and there; less is more in this case.

    Anyways:

    GP Approved 1/2
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
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  22. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    Done and Done :)

    also made some places smoother sounding

    I found some other stuff that wasn't caught when reading over it again.

    Ready for GP 2 ^.^
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  23. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    WreckDra AMCHECK
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    Overview
    ########

    Forretress is the definition of a team supporter. It sports one of the bestan excellent defensive typing,(AC)s out there with 10 resistances and one weakness along with the amazing ability Sturdy. Forretress's movepool is also vast with support options,(AC) including three out of four entry hazards, the extremely useful Rapid Spin, and an array of other options that give it a solid amount of utility on a lotlarge amount of different teams. BW also bestowed Volt Switch upon Forretress, giving it the ability to sponge a physical hit with its respectable 75/140 physical bulk, and then bring in another team memberPokemon for free which only adds to its plethora of useful options. XY wasn't very kind to Forretress thoughhowever. The buff to Defog now forces Forretress to compete with many support Arceus formes as well as Defog Skarmory, while also making Forretress's own hazards more difficult to keep in play. XY also nerfed Forretress's Steel typing, removing its resistances to Dark-type and Ghost-type attacksmoves which doesn't stack well with Forretress's mediocre special bulk. Despite all of these negatives generation 6XY brought to Forretress, it actually benefited a considerable amount from the disappearance of popular bulky Ghost-types,(AC) which allows it to use Rapid Spin more freely. Not to mention that Forretress also ruins other support Pokemon that came this generation such as Klefki and the new Arceus-Fairy with the added bonus of not being absolute Mega Gengar bait. Forretress still suffers from its old cons though, such as being Taunt bait and being 4x weak to common Fire-type coverage movescan be a bit annoying at times. Be aware that despite its shortcomings, Forretress is still extremely viable in the Ubers format, as Spikes and Toxic alone can do a lotlarge amount of damage to any team.

    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes
    move 3: Toxic
    move 4: Volt Switch / Gyro Ball
    ability: Sturdy
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    nature: Calm


    Moves
    ========
    Rapid Spin will always be one of the most useful moves in Forretress's arsenal and should always be considered on any Forretress set. The same goes for Spikes, as Forretress is one of the best settersusers of them and it lures in support Arceus for Forretress to Toxic. Toxic is used precisely for these Arceus variants, barring Steel and Poison of course, and it is also useful against other bulky Pokemon without Rest such as Groudon, Giratina-O, and Lugia. The last slot is a slight toss-up between Volt Switch and Gyro Ball., as Volt Switch is extremely useful for getting thingsa teammate in safely, shakingescaping Shadow Tag abusers, and stealing offensive momentum if Forretress is walling the opposition. However, Gyro Ball is also a candidate for this slot, beccauseas it is Forretress's best hope of dealing direct damage as it,(AC) 2HKOesing Mega Gengar,(RC) instead of just freeing Forretress from its Shadow Tag. It will also 2HKO any offensive Xerneas variant. Toxic Spikes is an amazing move and Forretress is one of the best settersusers of them as well. Either Spikes or Toxic can be substituted for Toxic Spikes. Forretress also has a recovery option outside of Rest in Pain Split,(AC) which will help it stick around longer with the addition of wearing high HP threats with high HP down faster, but Forretress generally has no room for it. All in all, your moveset should depend on what your team needs as Forretress is a supporter with many options.


    Set Details
    ========
    Leftovers gives Forretress a bit more staying power and also gives it a chance to reactivate Sturdy should Forretress take any premature damage. The EVs are there to patch up Forretress's lack(no space)luster Special Defense in the specially based Ubers environment, while its typing and natural physical bulk are all it needs on the physical side. On the contrary, a physically defensive spread could be used along with Pain Split and Toxic to take on Swords Dance Arceus variants better, as well as many other threats likesuch as Mega Kangaskhan, Rock Polish Groudon without Swords Dance, and Landorus-T. Once again, Forretress is a team supporter, so the set you choose should be based around what suits your team best.


    Usage Tips
    ========
    Dedicated spinblockers are less common is Ubers due to Defog being the most used method of removing hazards. Should your opponent carry a spinblocker while you have hazards up, using Volt Switching is generally the correct and safest play although poisoning an Arceus-Ghost or Giratina-O switch-(Add Hyphen)in will make them much easier to handle. Forretress can actually set up Spikes after poisoning a Giratina-O and force it to take more Toxic damage as it stays in to Defog. Spikes should be used when your opponent is going to switch or after Forretress has poisoned a support Arceus that can't touchdefeat it, likesuch as Grass Arceus. When an opponent is going to switch, make sure to note how threatening Forretress's switch-in is. If it can be handled easily, then begin to set up Spikes, but if your team is greatly threatened by it, then using Volt Switching and switching into somethinga Pokemon that can check it will be your best course of action. Lastly, Forretress has no recovery outside of the unreliable Pain Split,(AC) so make sure to keep it in good heath for as long as possible,(AC) as the Spikes and Toxic it carries as well as its ability to Rapid Spin are invaluable in most situations.


    Team Options
    ========
    Forretress is a team supporter and should only exist to help its teammates, but there are a few pokesPokemon that can make conditions more ideal for Forretress to do its work. The first teammate is Kyogre, as it reduces Forretress's weakness to Fire-type attacks greatly for five turns with the rain that it brings. Forretress also loves receiving Wishes from Wish passers such as Sylveon, Blissey, and Chansey. Tyranitar, Rock Arceus, and Water Arceus all have amazing type synergy with Forretress and the former helps Forry stack on residual damage with sandstorm. Yveltal deserves a special mention as it can remove spinblockers for Forretress and the latter can, while in return, Forretress can remove Stealth Rock to make Yveltal's switches safer. Mega Gengar can trap and remove Defoggers users so Forretress's entry hazards aren't wasted before any significant damage is done.

    Forretress best supports fragile Pokemon likesuch as Shaymin-S, Deoxys-A, Darkrai, and the aforepreviously mentioned Mega Gengar by setting up Spikes to net them KOs that they normally wouldn't get, and by using its slow Volt Switch to tank a hit,(RC) and bring them in safely. Forretress also takes priority moves aimed at them like a champvery well. Lugia loves having Stealth Rock off its side of the field whilst having Spikes on the opponents side in order to have its phazing shenanigans pack some punch. Ho-Oh adores ahaving Stealth Rock freeoff field and can shrug off any Fire-type move aimed at Forretress. Fairie-types can use two of Forretress's most dangerous switch-ins, Palkia and Yveltal, as set-up bait. Forretress generally does better on offensively inclined teams that are able to apply enough pressure to Defoggers and Rapid Spinners to keep them off the field, or punish a turn of clearing the fieldentry hazards with a sweep. The Spikes Forretress provides will aid sweepers in tearing apart teams and Toxic can help wear down walls and tanks so sweepers can pushbreak through them easier.


    Other Options
    ########
    Forretress has plenty of other options, but most are either done better by other support Pokemon, or are very situational. Reflect and Light Screen, with Light Clay as an item, can be utilized to make a set-up sweeper's life easier, but Defog now removes dual screens so keeping them up is a hassle. This is also done better by Klefki with its ability,(AC) Prankster. Stealth Rock is always an option on anything that gets it, but many other Pokemon are able to set it up better,(AC) while Spikes is a more unique option on Forretress. Earthquake can be a nasty surprise for an unsuspecting Heatran or Mega-(RH)Lucario while also 2HKOing Mega Gengar, but Volt Switch or Gyro Ball are generally the better options. Use a Careful nature along side Earthquake. Counter can turn matchups against Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus and Swords Dance Ground Arceus on their heads and can even be a nasty surprise for Blaziken and Ho-Oh if Sturdy is active, but Forretress generally doesn't have room for it and it is very situational.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh Ccan roast any Forretress with its Fire-type STAB and fears nothing from Spikes and little from Toxic as it regains its lost HP with Regenerator. Substitute variants don't fear Toxic or the rare Counter at all.

    **Blaziken and Mega-Blaziken**: These two will also roast Forretress with their Fire-type STAB moves, but both of them dislike Toxic cutting into their already non-existent longevity. All except for Substitute variants should be wary of Counter if Sturdy is active. Substitute variants also set up on Forretress easily.

    **Taunt Users**: Forretress hates tTaunt users likesuch as Gliscor, Yveltal, Heatran, and stalldefensive Mewtwo as they stop it from doing hardly anything useful and can wear it down with attacks or status, respectively.

    **Bulky Steel-types**: Dialga, Aegislash, Arceus-Steel, and Heatran are good examples of Steel-types that Forretress fears and cannot touch as two of them generally carry Fire moves and the other also functions as a spinblocker. Arceus-Steel can set up on Forretress as well.

    **Kyogre**: Any variant can muscle its way through Forretress, while defensive variants can Rest off Toxic.

    **Arceus-Poison**: Forretress cannot touch Arceus-Poisonit,(RC) and it can freely set up on Forretress.

    **Reshiram**:Reshiram Ccan check Forretress with its Fire-type STAB as itand ignores Sturdy with Turboblaze.

    **Fire-type coverage**: Anything with a decent Fire-type attack can check Forretress after Sturdy is broken.
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  24. WreckDra

    WreckDra Black Glasses > Everything
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    Alright,
    After reading over this twice over afterwards, I think I changed everything you suggested Magcargo 2 :P

    correct me if I'm wrong

    I also reworded the first sentence of Usage Tips
    hopefully this doesn't cause more problems/fluff
  25. Redew

    Redew
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    green light gp 2/2
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