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Gen 2 Forretress

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by magic9mushroom, May 11, 2014.

  1. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    I have no clue how to use this thing. I've tried to use it and it's never really worked for me. I ended up partially derailing the GSC OU Viability thread with my incompetent babble. So:

    - Against what do you bring Forretress in?
    - What partners well with Forretress?
    - Forretress + Skarm feels really wrong to me, but Forretress isn't an adequate answer to QuakeCurseLax. How do you deal with that?
    - What movesets work well on Forretress, and in what contexts?
    - What real advantages does Forretress have over Cloyster? I've seen mentions of HP Bug and thus holding Spikes vs. Starmie, but now Borat's talking about HP Ghost Forry; what does HP Ghost Forry have over Cloyster? (they both have 3HKOs on the Ghosts)
  2. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
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    - Against what do you bring Forretress in?
    Some lax variants, Nidoking without fireblast, Exeggutor, non curse Skarm, Heracross, etc. The problem with it is that you will very often have to scout for fire coverage.
    - What partners well with Forretress?
    A ghost obviously. And phazers. Suicune can get in on most things that have Fireblast coverage, namely lax.
    - Forretress + Skarm feels really wrong to me, but Forretress isn't an adequate answer to QuakeCurseLax. How do you deal with that?
    Curse Rest forry can theoretically stall out Lax. Forry also gets reflect. I do have a team with both skarm and forry, it does seem "wrong" in the beginning, but it works perfectly because non curse forry struggles against lax. The team also has Blissey and suicine against special attackers and just like every forry team it heavily relies on spikes+toxic to open up.
    - What movesets work well on Forretress, and in what contexts?
    Spikes is mandatory, so is rapid spin, the rest is kinda open to you. This also factors the next question a bit - forry has rapid spin and explosion, coming off an actually respectable 90 base attack stat. As soon as you reveal spin with cloyster you basically blew your load on your biggest offensive pressure, forry doesn't do that so you can still bluff explosion and actually explode. Toxic is usually used over explosion to force switches and wrap up residual damage, which is the point of spikes. The last move is usually used for hp bug for stab, which will let starmie switch in only hesitantly, therfor helps you keep your spikes against starmie. HP ghost hits opposing ghosts and therfor helps you spin against them.
    - What real advantages does Forretress have over Cloyster? I've seen mentions of HP Bug and thus holding Spikes vs. Starmie, but now Borat's talking about HP Ghost Forry; what does HP Ghost Forry have over Cloyster? (they both have 3HKOs on the Ghosts)
    I think what borat meant is hp ghost forry + missy, this combination lets you win the spikes war in the long run. hp ghost lets you spin more easily, so you don't have to bother with hp bug to keep your spikes (which only really works against starmie anyways). This does work with too with cloyster, like you stated they both have 3hkoes, the only real difference are defensive capabilities. Forry has more resistances and different switch-ins, actually stops non fire punch gengar pretty hard, same for other threats like mentioned already. Thunder missy ohkoes Cloyster iirc, so does gengar, which is crucial when you are trying to win the spikes war.
  3. The Quasar

    The Quasar
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    As well as good phazers Forretress partners (Raikou or Suicune), you have to evalutate Zapdos too. He could be a good choice like teammate, because he's frightening vs GSC spinner and immune by EQ.

    Zapdos Thunder vs. Starmie: 336-396 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Cloyster: 479-564 (158 - 186.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Zapdos Thunder vs. Forretress: 209-246 (59.2 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  4. Nitro.

    Nitro.

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    You should lead Forretress if you're playing Forretress imo. You can find out turn 1 if lax has FB, that's useful. More notably, tho, is Forretress vs Electrics on turn 1. Pretty much without fail people seem to opt to thunder/tbolt Forre here, which means if you're willing to forego spikes all together you could trade a forretress for an electric on turn 1. If you're not interested in that, spiking vs thunder seems well worth it to me. A free spikes with no rapid spin or counter-spikes = I'm going right to roar raikou on turn 2 and going to town. Cloyster is better than Forretress in many, many ways, but I think Forre is much better on turn 1 and it can make a big difference.
  5. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    - Against what do you bring Forretress in?
    Stall mons like Skarm and Miltank are your best bets. Steelix doesn't hit you too hard either. You can also bring it in on Lax, Nido, and Egg after you've scouted their sets, but the annoying thing is that you have to respect the possible OHKO until they do reveal their sets. Oh, and Toxic-Pursuit Charmbreon is a similar sort of beast, only instead of threatening with Fire moves, it threatens with ML BP.

    - What partners well with Forretress?
    Well, once Spikes are down, pretty much everything. If you're using Forry, though, you are 100% committing that slot to Spikes and the unique advantages Forry has over Cloy in that regard, so you really wanna load up on players of the Spikes game, and generally you will end up with a pretty stally sort of team. You can pair it with Missy for spinblock, Gengar for spinblock if you run HP Bug (as Forr takes care of Starmie itself in that case), maybe a Pursuiter (Ttar is the most obvious one, Houndoom is loads of fun, and Umbreon is weak but can just come right on in without fearing Surfs). There's some mons that are especially good at capitalizing off of Spikes, too: Roar Raikou, Nidoking, and Exeggutor are a couple examples, although you'll probably only fit one (if lucky, two) on your team. I find that I typically also want a Suicune on a Forry team, as generally the mon you have playing the Spikes game can help you out vs. Grounds, but you don't really get that with Forry.

    - Forretress + Skarm feels really wrong to me, but Forretress isn't an adequate answer to QuakeCurseLax. How do you deal with that?
    Adding another Steel to a Forry team is not inherently redundant, as Forry just sets spikes and doesn't exactly counter anything anyway. So you can go ahead and add that Skarm (or even a Steelix, who's also a pretty nice Spikes shuffler). That said, it tends to feel wrong to me too, so I use stuff like Rhydon/Ttar/Umbreon/Miltank/Misdreavus to deal with Lax. EQ Curselax can be annoying, yes, but not insurmountable.

    - What movesets work well on Forretress, and in what contexts?
    Forr isn't terribly complicated, this is its main set:
    Spikes/Rapid Spin/Explosion/Mystery Move

    Toxic is probably the best general-purpose 4th move, as it lets you actually keep Cloyster out of your face, punish Missy spinblock, and maybe even force a Curselax to Rest or keep a Rhydon from switching in willy-nilly. HP Bug will shoo Starmie away. HP Ghost is on the upper end of 3HKO on Gengar and Misdreavus, so nice for stopping spinblock. HP Fire solves the Forretress ditto problem. We're getting into the bottom of the barrel now, but wihle Reflect won't help you much with the Spikes game, it's still a good move in general (replacing Rapid Spin with Reflect isn't out of the question either). Rest is also possible if you wanna use it to tank Nidos or Eggs or something. Some SPLers are also hyping Giga Drain, which I think is just stupid because you still need to run Toxic on top of it to beat Cloy, but it's there.

    There's also this kinda gimmicky set intended to stall Lax if you really feel like you need it to do that:
    Spikes/Rest/Defense Curl/???
    where ??? is an attack (e.g., HP Bug), Toxic, Rapid Spin, Explosion, or shit, even Sleep Talk. You could run Curse over DCurl if you choose to use Boom or HP Bug. You might also be able to stall mono-Lax with Reflect over DCurl (+5 DE behind Reflect is 24-28%, unlikely 2HKO at 48-57% without Reflect up), but you have to be real smart about when you Rest, and EQ Curselax is almost definitely too dicey (2HKO without Reflect up, 27-32% with it up). Sleep Talk could make it less dicey though.

    - What real advantages does Forretress have over Cloyster? I've seen mentions of HP Bug and thus holding Spikes vs. Starmie, but now Borat's talking about HP Ghost Forry; what does HP Ghost Forry have over Cloyster? (they both have 3HKOs on the Ghosts)
    Forry is immune to Toxic, so it lasts longer vs. stalls. Forry can run both Rapid Spin and Explosion. Those are its chief advantages over Cloy. HP Bug for Starmie is nice, but Misdreavus + Toxic can work perfectly fine there, too, so that's hardly a chief advantage. HP Ghost is more for just stopping spinblock if you can afford to run it as your 4th.


    Here's a more-or-less standardish Forry mega-stall team:
    Forretress - Toxic/Spikes/Rapid Spin/Explosion - maybe HP Ghost over Toxic to stop Gengar spinblock, or HP Fire to really stick it to other Forrys.
    Misdreavus - Mean Look/Psong/Protect/Confuse Ray - not really much room for flexibility here. Keep it clear of Toxics if you can.
    Snorlax - Double-Edge/Fire Blast/Earthquake/Rest - Maybe Toxic over EQ. Needs to be a mixlax, otherwise you have literally zero instant offense.
    Raikou - Thunder/HP Ice/Roar/Rest - Reflect could go over HP Ice.
    Suicune - Surf/Toxic/Rest/Sleep Talk - Ice Beam over Toxic for better talks vs. Marowak.
    Umbreon - Pursuit/Toxic/Charm/Rest - a ML Pass set might do work if you can get Skarms to Rest, but Pursuit is handy for Gengars.

    I'm not terribly high on this sort of team because I think it just doesn't run enough attacks. I've attempted using Gengar and Rhydon on a team like this, to... eh, fairly mediocre results actually. The idea is mostly to stall, stall, stall, secure in the knowledge that Forry + Missy all but guarantee endgame Spikes for you.

    I've also seen more aggressive teams on PO that use Forry (user Kururin, for example). He uses its ability to survive a STAB Thunder to play it like a suicide hazards lead, which is kinda weird, but actually kinda works with Gengar spinblock + explosion pressure everywhere making spinning pretty difficult.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
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  6. Borat

    Borat

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    how the hell does that even work? you lose flat out to fb lax. you can have a slot for ttar/rhydon/missy, but then you don't have electrics and get last poke vap'd pretty easy. seems like there's a million standard holes i didn't mention (thunder missy, raikou LITERALLY solo winning with spikes, drum..fable, joltwak) but i just don't see how this in any shape "works perfectly".

    on topic: forretress also is neutral to boltbeam and no physical weakness. standard nido, dnite, gengar, hera all dont really do anything to forr.

    hp ghost is primarily to spin vs gengar. have either of the other 2 alternative moves just means you wait for him to tbolt you to death. you're better off pursuiting misdreavus as you can't really do anything to missy unless she's <80% and you hp ghost on the switch.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  7. jaQ

    jaQ

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    Forretress tends to work well alongside a rhydon/tyranitar rather than skarmory. I'd avoid going double steel unless you have a good reason.

    Why forretress instead of cloyster? Forretress has better defensive capabilities than cloyster. It runs reflect better and is safer to switch into more things. cloyster is generally the more dangerous of the spikers due to surf hitting everything hard that isn't safe to explosion, but forry survives longer. Forretress does somewhat well at fending off notable threats like heracross, exeggutor, espeon or some nidoking and snorlax. His presence alone threatens drumlax more than cloyster, since cloy gets hurt more from return than forry does earthquake.

    Also don't think that you need to run explosion on forry. You can run rest and take advantage of your opponents expectation of explosion. Moob is still better though I'm not saying it isn't. I'd only run rest if all or most of your team has serious problems with an obvious threat that forry handles better with recovery. For example, you may struggle with earthquake curselax In which case reflect + rest may prove best. Overall a forry moveset is something like:

    1. Spikes, 2. rest/explosion, 3&4: reflect, rapid spin, toxic, giga drain, hp bug (for stab) ghost (for gengar, secondary starmie) / lightning (for cloyster, secondary skarmory).

    lightning is underrated because when I ran forry the #1 thing that switched in was cloyster wanting an easy spin, or skarmory expecting me to moob and thinking it's safe. You can try running giga drain and lightning to make explosion scarier. I prefer reflect > curse or defense curl because it provides defense in more situations than stalling a curser, but not as effectively. You'll probabaly want rapid spin as a staple unless you have it elsewhere.
  8. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Why do you need the chip damage? If you HP Ghost on the switch, shouldn't you win even if Missy's fresh?

    <- confused
  9. Nitro.

    Nitro.

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    Missy will protect, then mean look, protect, then perish song. She gets a lot of health off those free leftovers.

    Edit: Uh wait if you get hit on the switch actually I think she just can't fight that especially if she was taking spike damage. HP Ghost actually does a pretty nasty chunk of damage.
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Oh, right. Forgot about that.

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