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Foul Play

Discussion in 'Dragonspiral Tower' started by Emperor, Feb 4, 2011.

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  1. Emperor

    Emperor

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    http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-bw/foulplay.shtml

    pp: 15
    Bp: 95
    Acc: 100
    Type: Dark
    Category: Physical

    Effect: Instead of the users attack stat, the foe's attack stat is used with all the nonitem additions as well! (aka, attack boosts from swords dance etc)

    Users: Honchkrow, Houndoom, Sableye, Krookodile, Zoroark, Persian, Shiftry, Kecleon, Skuntank, Leopard


    Overview: a rather unique attack though whether it is worth using is questionable. Not having to use your own attack stat is both a blessing and a curse.

    Pros: No Ev investment is needed to give a bit of mixed power for Foul Play users. Boosts are stolen which aids scarf users dramatically and users with not much attack to begin with (I'm looking at you sabeleye) can lay down some potential pain.

    Cons: You don't use your attack or your own boosts other than your item. So, if you use Foul Play on a blissey it isn't going to do that much. Additionally, the pokemon that you would likely try to get a super effective hit on with Foul Play (ghosts and psychics) tend to not have that high of an attack investment.

    Basically, I see Foul Play as a potential filler/tech move and nothing more. As soon as DW ditto comes out it will be waaaaaay better. The only real notable users I see here is sabeleye and zoroark :P
  2. YJiang

    YJiang

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    I can see it being useful if you know you're faster than a sweeper who has accumulated, say, two Swords Dances, and you need a guaranteed revenge kill.
  3. SMZ

    SMZ

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    Weakness wise there are limited Pokemon who are weak to it and have good attack, neutrally it has a higher range, but still. (for example it can't beat Jellicent, or Chandelure).
  4. Hospy

    Hospy

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    Thunder Wave, Swagger, Foul Play?

    Gimmicky as heck, but Kecleon could possibly run it with recover in the last spot with a defensive spread.
  5. dubious

    dubious

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    Effect: Instead of the users attack stat, the foe's attack stat is used with all the nonitem additions as well! (aka, attack boosts from swords dance etc)

    [​IMG]

    Zoroark @ Choice Scarf
    Timid
    4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Foul Play
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - U-turn

    This Zoroark basically acts as a basic scout and most importantly a check for Pokemon trying to DD or SD. (Gyarados, Salamence, Garchomp, etc.) Scarf Zoroark out speeds all of these major threats due to its 105 base speed and will deal heavy damage and possibly even kill (I haven't run calcs yet) since it gets to use the opponent's attack stat and most importantly the boosts.
  6. Arc Tech

    Arc Tech

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    This move is really meant for scarf pokemon. And the only one who can go scarfed here would probably be zoroak.
  7. Bakame!

    Bakame!

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    this attack is just good for that physical below averages like sableeye, zoroark, houndoom or shiftry but even just good for neutral damage or are there any ghosts/psycichs with that big att out?

    using trickery with honckrow or krookodile is just gimmicky...
  8. NDenizen

    NDenizen

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    Swagger and Trickery are the most wonderfully annoying moves to use together.

    I run the combo with MH Sableye (a better user than Leopardas, imo), alongside Substitute and Recover, and it can be a great way of breaking the opponent's momentum, as well as being a fun strategy normally. Few people understand how the move works either, so it's got that element of surprise - "why is your Sableye so strong?" etc.

    It's interesting - Swagger can be spammed on Special Attackers and worn down, but with Physical attackers you're obviously taking more risk to have them KO themselves faster. Walls can pose a problem, but even so it can take them down with luck - Subs become even more useful in this case. In the case you've unwittingly given your foe the tools to sweep your team, or just let them Set Up on you, an Unaware user comes in handy to break their momentum once more.

    Trickery is also a great move without Swagger - use it on its own and you can sometimes take surprisingly hefty chunks out of your enemy. It turns the otherwise weak Sableye or Leopardas into something offensive with no need for Attack IVs - not having to rely on your own attack stat is also wonderful when Intimidated or Swaggered yourself. Magic Mirror user can also enjoy being hit pretty hard by Trickery.

    Foul Play/ Trickery is definitely one of the more fun new moves of this gen.
  9. Bakame!

    Bakame!

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    lol thats the only reason to use swagger at all

    maybe trickery will be more spread in gray, drapion for example isnt that fragile like sableeye overall and has nice tools too, although no teasing heart. or weezing/shuckle would really like that move too theirselfs. even for all that dd-dragons out their it could be a counter unless the user isnt ripped apart



    magikarp with trickery
  10. Yagami Light

    Yagami Light

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    Lepardas @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 252 Sp. Def / 4 Def, Careful
    Mischievous Heart

    Swagger
    Thunder Wave
    Substitute
    Trickery

    At worst you're getting a paralysis off but in the best case scenario you're killing around 3 Pokemon easily. And trust me when I say that scenario 2 happens much more often than you'd think.
  11. Machi

    Machi

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    Similar to my set in the Leperdas thread but instead of Thunderwave I chose encore as it bides you more time for swagger or at times is a great way to lock things like Jellicent into WoW or Toxic if they mispredict using it during your sub while you swagger and trickery them to death. Or encoring a psychic attack from a boosted Reiunculus or slower psychics and swagger+trickery abuse the next turn. Also Psychic types and Ghost types still do take a lot of damage from a +2 Trickery even coming off their weak Atk stat.

    I'd also like to point out the swagger+trickery still works well with Unburden against those boosting dragons you easily outspeed, i.e. every non-scarfed dragon except for Lati@s. Who easily is OHKOed by a +2tk boosted Trickery hitting them, and with Unburden+focus sash it makes a great revenge killer in case your confusion doesn't kick in next turn you easily out speed them with double the speed. Then again thanks to Leperdas' speed tier it can also take advantage of dealing with SD Landlos who is another easy OHKO for Trickery.

    Frankly I find Leperdas to be one of the better users of this set since really BOTH abilities allow for Swagger and Trickery combo to succeed in a different way. Plus with its terrible offense and defense stat altogether and only having speed Trickery allows for the cat to actually OHKO things after one swagger or SD. Biggest enemy of this combo of course is U-turn pokes and scarfed ones :(
  12. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    Thunder Wave is viable too, to slow and cripple the enemy. It requires less prediction than Encore, even though if you get an Encore off it is much easier to predict. The big problem is switching Pokemon, though...
  13. Machi

    Machi

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    Its the biggest problem of Swagger+Trickery either way :P Only good thing is so many opt to not switch out and hope killing Leperdas and taking advantage of that +2 to their Atk stat. Thunderwave is viable but the pay off by encore is much better IMO as it practically nets you a free turn of swagger and an additional turn to survive rather than hoping that paralysis kicks in. Then again at times I do tend to use this combo with something that has trick so~

    Edit: Oh and Magic Mirror Pokes are also something you can't take down as easily with Swagger+Trickery for obvious reasons.
  14. NDenizen

    NDenizen

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    Yeah, Encore seems a bad choice as you just invite your opponent to switch, which they can them become used to doing. The thing with Swagger over something like Confuse Ray is that it can persuade your opponent to stay in and reap the possible benefits of a high attack stat, and although having them do that is bad, the strategy isn't effective if they don't stay in (Thunder Wave is sort of the same problem, but your opponent doesn't want to spread Paralysis around I suppose). It goes without saying that hazards help alongside - in fact with Unaware's utility, Swaggery fits into some sort of strange Semi-Gimmick-Stall Synergy going on.

    I disagree. Assuming you're going up against the typical Swaggery moveset with a MM pokemon, then you're going to be rebounding Swaggers on to subs and then getting dented by Trickery, whilst denied your Psychic STAB - Calm Mind isn't going to help your defense, and providing you do rebound a Swagger, it's going to do little against a pokemon doesn't need high attack for Offense. If you want a good Swaggery counter then any bulky wall will give it problems.
  15. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    Unaware? Liepard has Unburden and Mischievous Heart. Or are you talking about another Pokemon?
  16. Machi

    Machi

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    Confuse ray I don't find that viable since while it can encourage them to stay longer it also lengthens their longevity and trickery even on those with high Atk stat and investment aren't an OHKO and after seeing a chunk of their health gone would most likely switch out, swagger I find does tend to bait them to stay in.

    Encore is risky but it can still be great in that even if the opponent switches chances are you'd be firing off a swagger either way, or if its MH version you're using putting up a sub without fear of it being broken while you swagger the pokemon that entered and begin to use Trickery. For me that one extra turn make a big difference for Leperdas' set up.

    That is IF your first move is substitute which frankly tends to be the second move or third move of Leperdas once it manages to net a swagger since it can gamble on putting a sub up while the opponent is confused. Especially since Leperdas' subs are really easy to break so it wouldn't make sense to make that your first move, and you've already gotten some form of insurance i.e. confusion or in my case encore. And with Leperdas' sad defenses the Hidden Power or Shadow Ball normally carried by Espeon (or HP fire for Xatu XD) can easily put a dent on the cat. Or worse put up screens since they know they're not going to be OHKOed by Trickery.
  17. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    I used to think this move was some kind of ??? BP move that went to like 120 BP if you were facing something as strong as Garchomp. Then I'd use it just about all the time. :/
  18. NDenizen

    NDenizen

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    Yeah - as I mentioned before, it's a helpful ability when you're turning your opponent into potential sweeping machines. At that point you're almost building a pseudo-stall team and so other staples such as Hazards and Screens become a nice addition.

    Actually no, I argued Confuse Ray would encourage your opponent to switch, thereby making Swagger the better option.
  19. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    Encore and Thunder Wave are both great auxiliary moves that are very useful on a Pokemon like Liepard (or any other similar Pokemon), but unfortunately both have demerits too. Swagger is useful to entice foes to stay in and try to destroy you, but there is always that chance of you getting pwned in return. Other FP users tend be bulkier but are mainly unsuitable to their role when they have more solid options reliable. Sableye is pretty good at using it, not to mention Zoroark. Persian has support options to use alongside it but without STAB it's kind of a waste.

    EDIT: @NDenizen I thought you were talking about other Pokemon, because Unaware has good utility with Foul Play, but I can't think of too many really useful Pokemon that can utilize it without being killed except Clefable. Quagsire, Swoobat and Bibarel are the only other Pokemon that get it. It seems like a lot of work just for one move with bad mono-attacking credentials, but it'd make a great and surprising gimmick team.
  20. NDenizen

    NDenizen

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    Well I was actually referring to another team mate as you mentioned, hence the "team" comments. Unaware + Swagger's a good combo but on Clefable it's pretty underwhelming, and considering I enjoy having an Unaware user ready in case the Swagger user gets taken down, even more so - on MH Dark type it works wonders, especially Sableye that enjoys a bit more bulk and no weaknesses.
  21. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    I like to use Sableye purely because it was so underwhelming and unloved before, and now it's really viable for use on many teams. Unaware is just one of those always-useful abilities that happens to go really well with Foul Play.

    @Emperor: In users of Foul Play you left out Murkrow, who can be a bulky Prevo-Stone MH user and strike enemies with Foul Play. It's definitely not something to leave out because it combines decent defenses with annoying priority, a good support movepool and Foul Play for straight damage.
  22. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    You know this move might have been a tad better if it had used the foe's strongest offensive. It would make it not inferior to Crunch in most battles and provides Pokemon like Sableye an actual attack.
  23. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    If=/=it's. If it wasn't this unique there wouldn't as much discussion on it.
  24. TorchicBlaziken

    TorchicBlaziken

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    Should be a pain when Purrloin uses it in Little Cup.

    I like Purrloin and will name it after my cat and use it.
  25. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    Houndour can use it in LC too! And Stunky. And Meowth (I think.)This will add a nice twist if it catches on.
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