Freezers

UncleSam

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#26
I'd received many logs of spiffy chatting about the game with players on the IRC channel, it wasn't your log that got him godkilled.
OK um...lets look at your in-thread explanations (I'll amalgamate both yours and vonfiedler's since they are basically the same points...)
polelover44 said:
technically I should have godkilled you the first time you did this. Also, billy's post originally said "Spiffy told me to say this game sucks", which lead me to believe you were on IRC. Billy later PM'd me saying this was false and you never told him anything, he just wanted to piss me off, but
a) I can't take back a godkill
and b) I should have godkilled you earlier.
billy was a non-player. You clearly state that the reason for the godkill was not the earlier IRC logs you refer to in this thread, but rather the post by a non-player about the incident.

vonfiedler said:
Spiffy really put us between a rock and a hard place not only by going onto the game chat on IRC after being told not to (being frozen was your warning, it should have been sufficient) and then going on IRC later and talking to people about the game regardless of whether they were playing or not. Which we never would have known about had Spiffy not copy pasted a non-player's words in an attempt to influence a lynch.

I do not feel bad for Spiffy. I feel bad for the teammates he let down. I don't like godkilling players, but my cohost was not as forgiving and he had every right not to be.
Note the bolded part (and the fact that it was vonfiedler who bolded it, not me). No mention of "IRC logs", just "non-player's words in an attempt to influence the lynch", which is exactly what I stated in my original post.

Let's continue, shall we?

polelover44 said:
Spiffy, had you been subbed out, your sub in would have been completely screwed over. Basically, everybody would know what he was, except he wouldn't have the beneficial information that helped you avoid being lynched yesterday.
This relates to my second point in my original post in this thread (god this quoting across threads is getting confusing). Basically, your argument is that a sub would have been "screwed over" so we will just award the other team a free kill? So the fuck what if people would have known what he was, how does that mean he is "screwed over", that happens in most subbing cases.

vonfiedler said:
Which might be a good point if he hadn't used your comment to sway the lynch. That's really all there is to that. That'd be frowned upon even if he wasn't frozen.
This statement, apart from being categorically untrue (again, nothing in your rules about asking for non-players' advice), again posits both that it was the non-player's chat, not these mysterious "IRC logs" which were hardly referenced and never revealed whatsoever that caused the godkill, and that these comments "swayed the lynch", a ridiculous statement for reasons I have already pointed out.

Note that nowhere in the actual thread did either of you say that the reason for Spiffy's godkill was IRC logs with players.

In other words, your comment here is total bullshit and you cannot simply ignore my points by bringing up non sequiturs.
 
#27
stop arguing unclesam. You didn't argue against my getting godkilled in ampharos, when i posted a post while kidnapped that contained no information at all; it said

Jigglypuffers42 said:
If only jiggly were here. Then we'd know what to do
You didn't say anything about that because it was in your favor that i died. Now you won't stop arguing for spiffy. It was his fault for pushing boundaries. It was a host decision, and it had reasons. It's not our place to say what was too harsh or what was not harsh enough, every host works a different way.

Unclesam said:
billy was a non-player. You clearly state that the reason for the godkill was not the earlier IRC logs you refer to in this thread, but rather the post by a non-player about the incident.
Spiffy was not innocent. I do agree that it might've been harsh, but it's not polelover's fault. If anything, blame billymills, who ended up getting spiffy killed. That was just stupid of him, and you can't undo a godkill, so it was too late once he knew. In the end, maybe it shouldn't have been done, but in the position the hosts were in, it was by far the best plan of action. So much about mafia is honor system, and you are saying they shouldn't have trusted billymills, and that they should've just ignored him.

Unclesam said:
This relates to my second point in my original post in this thread (god this quoting across threads is getting confusing). Basically, your argument is that a sub would have been "screwed over" so we will just award the other team a free kill? So the fuck what if people would have known what he was, how does that mean he is "screwed over", that happens in most subbing cases.
It gave them a free kill, but it also lowered someone's priority by one, and didn't give them a chance to play. At all. If anyone would like a priority lowering, they could step up, otherwise that wouldn't be a good idea.

Unclesam said:
This statement, apart from being categorically untrue (again, nothing in your rules about asking for non-players' advice), again posits both that it was the non-player's chat, not these mysterious "IRC logs" which were hardly referenced and never revealed whatsoever that caused the godkill, and that these comments "swayed the lynch", a ridiculous statement for reasons I have already pointed out.
Whether it actually swayed the lynch or not doesn't matter. He used it in hopes of doing so. And why should there have to be a rule? dead players and not playing people are treated as the same thing-- not a part of the game. So, to bring in someone out of the game in order to use their view on the matter is, simply, dead talking.

Unclesam said:
godkilling should only be done under circumstances in which it is clearly intended
So now godkilling is a metagame, and should only be used as such. So it's no longer a punishment

In conclusion, if you can come up with why they shouldn't have godkilled him with the info they had at that moment, then let me know, because you don't so far

Oh, and btw i agree with Unclesam in the way that NOC role suck
 
#28
stop arguing unclesam. You didn't argue against my getting godkilled in ampharos, when i posted a post while kidnapped that contained no information at all...
Apples and oranges. I fail to see how "breaking restriction (the circumstances around this are pretty fucking irrelevant) used as the reason for a godkill" and "talking to a non-player (the circumstances around this are pretty fucking irrelevant) used as the reason for a godkill" relate, but feel free to enlighten me.

...In conclusion, if you can come up with why they shouldn't have godkilled him with the info they had at that moment, then let me know, because you don't so far
Perhaps the hosts could have, you know, made certain their information was accurate before exercising a godkill, which is, believe it or not, an important matter.

Spiffy is just a stupid dude who likes to push peoples buttons and his luck anyway; this is just his behavior coming back to bite him in the ass.
I'm pretty sure nobody is arguing that point.
 
#30
General Spoon said:
Apples and oranges. I fail to see how "breaking restriction (the circumstances around this are pretty fucking irrelevant) used as the reason for a godkill" and "talking to a non-player (the circumstances around this are pretty fucking irrelevant) used as the reason for a godkill" relate, but feel free to enlighten me.
He went on irc for a long time. In addition, throughout the day he had info he shouldn't have had, unless he talked to someone after he was frozen. And, now, polelover claims hat he has logs. I don't doubt that. In addition, order is something that a host needs. Spiffy kept pushing the boundaries; he pushed too far, then billy mills claims he did something that was the last straw, and he gets godkilled.

General Spoon said:
Perhaps the hosts could have made certain their information was accurate before exercising a godkill, which is, believe it or not, an important matter.
wtf are you talking about??? ONCE AGAIN HONOR SYSTEM. Mafia is based around it. They directly heard it from billymills, and they didn't doubt that he was telling the truth, because honor system

General Spoon said:
Spiffy is just a stupid dude who likes to push peoples buttons and his luck anyway; this is just his behavior coming back to bite him in the ass.
Even if no one is arguing it, everyone feels it, even unclesam. He won't argue against it.
 

vonFiedler

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#31
First of all, I'd like to apologize for being defensive earlier. I log on to find a thread praising something in one of my games, and the very next post is "It's stupid".

As has been stated, there are many rules that follow the honor system. Deadtalking, don't ruin the game, etc. There are real problems we're dancing around with this thread. For one thing, godkilling is a shitty way to enforce a restriction and I assure you UncleSam, I am not a godkill happy host (if you need proof, notice that silence negates persuasion preventing the two from godkilling).

And again, it has nothing to do with the village leader unless a host intends it to (and I didn't and don't see myself doing so in the the immediate future). Its simply a variable on one aspect of the game and perhaps it needs to be nerfed, but if you're playing in a game with me and you are a freezer than by all means freeze me. I won't act like its unfair. As long as the game itself is the balanced, one player can go one or two cycles (preferably one, but I'm starting to prefer unicycle anyway) without outside contact and live to talk about it.
 
#33
He went on irc for a long time. In addition, throughout the day he had info he shouldn't have had, unless he talked to someone after he was frozen. And, now, polelover claims hat he has logs. I don't doubt that. In addition, order is something that a host needs. Spiffy kept pushing the boundaries; he pushed too far, then billy mills claims he did something that was the last straw, and he gets godkilled.
Now, as in, after the fact, right? I don't recall seeing these logs, but I may have overlooked them, so feel free to show them to me so I can see how much or how little they were exaggerated.

wtf are you talking about??? ONCE AGAIN HONOR SYSTEM. Mafia is based around it. They directly heard it from billymills, and they didn't doubt that he was telling the truth, because honor system
A non-player was asked to say that the game sucks, AFAIK. While I think that this is tasteless, I would think that this is pretty trivial and only worth a godkill if the hosts have run out of patience with the player in question (a definite possibility with Spiffy) and are possibly letting it bleed into their decision making in some way.

Even if no one is arguing it, everyone feels it, even unclesam. He won't argue against it.
Then why do you keep bringing it up in your arguments anyways? Just drop it.
 

vonFiedler

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#35
This statement, apart from being categorically untrue (again, nothing in your rules about asking for non-players' advice)
Informal Guidelines:

  • No "postcount++" games will be accepted. This includes most (all) "poster above" or "poster below" games or games that require little to no effort to participate in.
  • Don't request to host a game that's too similar in gameplay to other games that are already running (with the exception of Mafia).
  • Games that require thought and/or involvement from the players are preferred.
  • Please do not post in Mafia games that you are not in.
What Spiffy did was essentially this. If you posted in my game what Spiffy posted, you'd be breaking this informal guideline. But you didn't, and I was in no way accusing you of wrong doing. But Spiffy still in my eyes broke this guideline. Now if pole has IRC logs on top of that, I'd certainly love to see them too, but only he can put to rest all this talk.
 
#38
Guys, stop hating on von, seriously. The decision to godkill Spiffy was mine and mine alone, von could not have prevented it in any way, shape, or form. I still stand by that decision. If you have a problem yell at me, not him.
 

Mekkah

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#40
tl;dr and less whining about anything that hasn't got anything to do with the Freezer role please

I introduced the NOC kidnap in Unicyle Mafia, but with very harsh drawbacks that not everyone who is putting in an NOC role is honoring. It lasted one cycle (one Unicycle at that), it couldn't be used twice on the same person, and the person who was targeted got to broadcast a one time announcement that was instantly posted in the thread.

Since then I've seen a gazillion NOC roles pop up that are much more disruptive and I hate them. I already did a tirade on them before though. "Freezer" is much less harsh because the target can still post in the thread. He can tell people to send results to him there. Anyone who doesn't is either suspicious or lazy, but that's nothing like "preventing people from playing the game".

About it being unenforceable...if you don't trust your players not to honor it, then don't include the role in your game. Don't godkill people unless you're 100% sure they broke the rules.

Oh, and I don't think this type of role should be able to affect the same person for more than a single Cycle.