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Friend Rulin', Friend Rulin', Yeah!

Discussion in 'VGC' started by Huy, Apr 25, 2011.

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  1. Werecario

    Werecario

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    Lol i figured, I wasnt really known last year, i recognized you and mentioned briefly who I was on smogon. You Biffster and I were all about to get paired with one another, but we asked to wait for someone else. In my defense last year there was a big friend rule hype going around about smogon sweeping the finals.
  2. Articuno64

    Articuno64 1 to 63 were taken
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    Not all of the ducks are top tier players (for example, myself). The ducks are a group of friends who thought it would be fun to wear team shirts, and we just happen to include some of the best players in the game.

    You mentioned Halordain, I lost to him in round 4 of Seattle, and played 3 strong opponents in my first battles. Being able to avoid my duck friends in no way gives me an easy path.

    You're entitled to your theory about why some of us jumped on Milan about the friend rule thing. But here's another theory:

    The friend rule is good for everyone, not just the ducks. Everyone wants to have a chance to go far in the tournament with their friends without having to eliminate each other.

    The friend rule is a privilege, it didn't used to exist in earlier tournaments. Even if you would like it to be for pseudo-seeding, that's not what it's for, and if it's abused in such a way, we could all lose the privilege.

    Seeing that the friend rule is good for everyone, including moderators of this forum, the moderators would like to make it clear that they don't condone abusing it for the purposes of getting ahead (because we know TCPi does read this forum). So when Milan posts the following:

    "Then another Smogonite shows up(forgot her name) and we Friend Clause her."

    What do you expect them to say? The way he worded it makes it look like abuse. He later confirmed that she actually was part of their group of friends (and no one was on his back about that particular issue after that iirc), but that's not how it looked at first. And then you have people spreading the idea that the friend rule is for avoiding good players, and it just makes the whole thing that much worse.

    The best way to keep this privilege is to a) not abuse it, and b) make it publicly clear in this forum that it's not to be abused.

    As for VGC planners being told not to pair ducks together, even if that is true, that is no different from the friend rule that is available to everyone, since all the ducks are friends. It would just make it easier to identify, since mistakes have been made before (like Synre mentioned, he had to play Fishy last year even though the staff wasn't supposed to match friends together that early).

    When I asked a staff member in Seattle, he said that they were trying not to pair friends together. He didn't say that they were trying not to pair good players together.

    Maybe it would be nice to have some kind of seeding, but there isn't any right now. That could be a separate debate, but let's not lose the friend rule by trying to seed ourselves.

    People are always scared to speak up about stuff but hopefully you will see now that there's nothing to be scared of.

    I have also not seen an official name for this rule anywhere, but if you want to know whether your interpretation is abusive, think of it this way. When you see someone you don't want to play, do you tell the staff member that they are your friend, or do you tell them that they are a good player? I've managed to avoid playing a couple friends this way, but I've never seen anyone get away with the latter.

    Agreed, it did get out of hand. At the same time I can understand people getting on him since it appeared that he made like 3 total dick moves all at once, even though it now seems like it was partly just bad wording and misunderstandings.

    And as I explained before, it is important for the bit about the friend rule to be public so that it doesn't get abused more.

    Feel free to speak up any time. :)
  3. Zog

    Zog

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    Fun, fun, fun, fun, lookin' forward to the Birmingham.

    I've no intention of abusing friend rule since I really don't have to but to all you unEVed mono choice users out there, yes, you are my friend, and yes, you are going to find a new opponent. :3
  4. Werecario

    Werecario

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    This is a side note but still about the friend rule. Why was it that last year people were making a big deal about trying to get smogon in the finals and that the "friend rule" wasnt as frowned upon as it is this year. Did something happen that changed this?
  5. TTS

    TTS Articulate Potty Lid
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    Last year turnout wasn't as high as this year. IIRC Dallas and Phoenix went to people that either weren't on Smogon at all or had accounts but lurked and had no community involvement. This year the interest is far greater.
  6. Werecario

    Werecario

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    That makes sense. Now that there are a lot more people if everyone asks for a friend rule it would raise suspicion I guess.
  7. RedSpyda

    RedSpyda

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    I'm competing this year at the Newark Regional and have a couple of friends that I train and practice with that are competing as well. We all have the goal in mind to place as high as we can and fully realize that at a certain point in time we will have to face each other to prove who is better.

    Granted we all see teams that in no way should ever get out of the first round and want Chuck Norris to Fawlcon Pawnch them in the face, we have to keep in mind that this is a COMPETITION. If a highly skilled player loses in any round to another highly skilled player, the best man/woman won. If a highly skilled player loses in any round to a player with a unconventional team, still the best man/woman won.

    In war there are no friends; everyone is an enemy to your goal of reaching the top

    Leave the friend rule to the noobs and let all of the time and energy you spent into training and coming up with a strategy to speak for itself.
  8. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    While I don't believe the friend rule should be abused in any fashion, doesn't abusing the friend rule stay true to that philosophy more than not doing so? If you use it to avoid battling StrongVGCer7086, it's much easier to get to the top than if you do not do so, but it completely disregards the original intent of the rule, but stays completely true to your dictum.

    Also, your intent seems to be to restrict players from using it at all, because they "shouldn't care" whether they're friend places high or not. Isn't that the whole point of being their friend? Using the friend rule to avoid playing your friend doesn't harm you at all trying to get first, unless your friends are very subpar players, at which point you're just being an ass and taking advantage of them. That "every man for themselves" doctrine won't do you any favors and was the reason the friend rule was informally introduced in the first place, so people don't have to make these kinds of decisions.
  9. CRITICO!

    CRITICO!

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    Thank you all for moving this discussion out of my warstory. :) I'm sorry I worded what I wrote wrong and stirred up such misunderstandings. The girl's name was Tiffany and I saw her at Worlds 2010 in Hawaii and we chatted and all, as well as in the registration line with other smogonites such as BI, Ryuzaki, lucariojr and others. So when Round 4 came, we Friend Claused each other as we were friends that previously talked. The feeling was mutual as she agreed with me to friend clause each other. Round 4 was the ONE time I friend Claused through the whole tournament, including the tournaments in the past as well(last year). I wasn't scared of playing good people because honestly, everyone is good, just at different skill levels and certain players might misplay more than others. Just wanted to clarify this one more time and hope everyone understands me now. :) Thank you all and can't wait to see y'all at Nationals! :D
  10. NC

    NC

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    Slightly different opinion here: I don't think anyone on this site has any authority to decide how the friend rule can or cannot be used and until an actual hardwritten rule is made, it should be up to the interpretation of the judges (meaning there is no "right" or "wrong" here). If you think that somebody is abusing the rule, take it up the the judges (or TPCI, or whoever...) about changing/improving said rule rather than attacking the "abuser" for breaking a rule that does not exist. Many people are playing to maximize their chance of winning and not to "defend their honor" by playing a tougher opponent when it could be avoided.

    FWIW, I would rather eliminate the friend rule and make the matchups be random, with the possibility of preferential seeding to people who have done well in previous years.
  11. theamericandream38

    theamericandream38

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    I think the reason why people care so much about how the friend rule is used (and thus make posts in this thread stating their opinion about it) is that they worry that if others "abuse" the friend rule, it may be removed altogether and most people do not want that.
  12. Thatsjustpeachy

    Thatsjustpeachy 意识渐渐远去,意志力永不褪色
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    Like everything you have to take the bad with the good. If there happens to be enough bad that it gets removed than so be it. Nobody has the right to tell others how to use this rule, especially those that are playing in the tournaments. If it is abused than so be it and if you don't like it than don't play in it. The weak won't last forever and friends will ultimately face each other if they make it take far. I really don't see an issue to be arguing about here.

    Edit: This isn't directly address towards you but to people who are afraid of how the rule will be used
  13. NC

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    I realize that, I just think that the general tone of many in this thread is "You can never do this under any circumstance!!!" (acting as though they have authority on the matter) rather than "If you want to keep this rule in place, we suggest you don't do this."

    It could also be said that doing something like (for example if CRITICO had truly not been friends with the girl) wouldn't even be abusing the rule. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the "friend rule" is even a real name and it is just something that people called it after using it. I also don't believe that Nintendo has ever issued a statement saying that it only applies to friends.

    @krabs93: Yeah, I agree.
  14. evan

    evan I did my best -- I have no regrets
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    Yeah but the issue is when you say "This is my friend; please don't pair me with him/her" you get the staff to agree vs. "I am scared of this person as a VGC battler; please don't pair me with him/her." If you can get the staff to agree to the latter, godspeed. If you cannot and have to lie and use the former, then you are abusing your priveleges to not play people you are close with.
  15. NC

    NC

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    This would be more of an issue of lying than abusing the rule, but it would be easy to get around without actually lying. For example, say I found out that my opponent, "Steve" was from smogon and we quickly introduced ourselves, learned each other's name/age/where we live/etc. and then I told a judge "Steve and I know each other, can we play somebody else?" I would be surprised if the judge said no. "Knowing" (and "friend" for that matter) is very open to interpretation and until Nintendo says how this can or cannot be used, I say all the power to people who want to do this.
  16. evan

    evan I did my best -- I have no regrets
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    I guess you're playing in Washington, DC regionals because that's the only place you'll find support for that kind of semantics!
  17. NC

    NC

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    Nope, just going to LCQ. I also don't mean to imply that I would do, or even support such actions. My point is that nobody here has the authority to tell anybody that s/he cannot interpret this (nonexistent rule) to his/her own benefit. You saying (pp) "do not do this under any circumstance" to somebody earlier in the thread would be akin to me saying that to you about something regarding moderating this website. Basically it means nothing.

    edit: actually it would be more akin to me minimodding and giving my own interpretation of the "spirit" or some rule, but what I said still applies.
  18. makiri

    makiri My vast and supreme will shall be done!
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    However, I have the authority to tell people not to discuss such abuse on this website.
  19. TTS

    TTS Articulate Potty Lid
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    The staff of Smogon can, however, dictate what is and is not permissible to be discussed here, however. Some of what was said was nothing more than opinion spouting, but yeah, in the end the staff can ban discussion of subjects.

    Edit: DAMN YOU ZEROWING STEALING MY THUNDER
  20. Cassie

    Cassie giant claw

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    They aren't telling you NOT to use it, just to not do it openly on the forums.
    I may be newer to the forums, but I do know that Smogon was not well liked by TPCi, and since then some of the mods have been able to help change their opinion. If this rule is excessively used by us, it may cause them to return to their old opinions as abusing the rule by trying to "friend clause" every person that says they are from Smogon makes Smogon look elitist, imo. This isn't even giving the site an accurate presentation as many of the people doing this almost disappear outside of VGC season, and don't do anything to help the site.
    I get that some people don't want to battle someone they stood in line with and talked to all day with, but really though this new rule is just asking that you do not ask to friend rule publicly on the site. You're not being told to not use friend rule.

    Edit: tl;dr I'm basically just echoing what zerowing and tts said.
  21. JRank

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    I think what is trying to be discouraged here is this thread (look more towards the bottom for posts regarding "friend rule" or "buddy clause"), where people who have had limited interaction say "I want easy battles so let's abuse the rule". (mainly on that page but instances of it are on other pages) I have no idea why it flared up and was rampant in the Dallas thread, but that really shouldn't happen.
  22. Synre

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    We have no direct control over how people behave in real life events, but when people are doing things there that are pretty blatantly ethically dubious while advertising themselves as Smogon users and intentionally trying to avoid opponents from Smogon then as the Smogon moderation staff we have a level of responsibility to try to curb what I think is pretty obviously undesired behavior, which we'll be doing with forum warnings -- which is an announcement we added this week probably no one read -- since that is on a medium we do have direct control over.

    It is ridiculous we need to try to patrol people's real life behavior, but it is similarly ridiculous how far our users are apparently willing to go to advance in Pokemon tournaments. I'm not sure if those of you arguing that because the rule isn't written in stone you're free to interpret it however is most advantageous to you are unintentionally picking the most inane, self-serving logic possible and are actually naive enough to think that this needs to be written out like it's a constitutional ammendment or something, or if you're just fighting us on this because you know you're fucking up, but I think some of you are being awfully childish here. Don't try to take a mile with the inch you've been given on this. Being able to avoid anyone at all is certainly a blessing so why don't we at least enjoy the fact we're actually close to.

    If TPCI wanted there to be seeding, there probably would be. You didn't see the Has or the Schaumbers getting free passes becuase they did well in Worlds last year, and you won't see free passes for anyone else, either. I'd love for there to be some sort of seeding system to prevent more of the better players from playing each other early on, but the fact is it isn't there and all TPCI has said to us is that they're willing to allow us to avoid playing our friends until after the finalists' lounge. Let's not push that.

    What I think is really disturbing in this thread is the sense of entitlement from posters here, like somehow they must have practiced more than their opponents or be better players because they use Smogon and deserve to have what they expect to be an easier matchup than their opponents got because they probably don't use Smogon. Why do you deserve an easier road than a potential opponent you don't know a thing about?

    I think it's pretty obvious this topic isn't going anywhere. Unless we get more information, we're done here.
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