FRLG in-game tier list

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mekkah

is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Super Moderator
#1
Pokemon are not within any order within a tier.
Only first Pokemon of a line is in the tier list, unless there is a good reason to include their evolved form when catchable, like Dugtrio.
Tiers determined roughly by: usefulness - resources needed to do so. Usefulness is ease of play, while resources are things like money investment on Potions, TMs, spending ages to raise them in the wild or switching them in and out, etc. The entire game is considered.

Assumed is not that you are trying to speedrun or solo the game, but rather just...play through with a team of somewhere between 3 and 6 Pokemon. Maybe we'd need more discussion on things like detours to Power Plant etc, but that's fun too.

I am kinda rusty on this, but this is a sketch. It's also not finished yet by any stretch.

Notable changes since last time:
- All Pokemon in first post now
- Cut out the long list of post-National Dex

- Staryu Low -> Top
- Zubat Top -> Mid
- Mewtwo Limbo -> Mid
- Eevee-Flareon Top -> Mid
- Oddish Top -> Mid
- Bellsprout Top -> Mid

- Moltres Top -> Mid
- Articuno Top -> Mid

- Chansey Mid -> Low
- Jolteon Top -> Mid

- Poliwag Low -> Mid
- Voltorb Low -> Mid

Top

Bulbasaur
Charmander
Diglett
Drowzee
Dugtrio
Eevee-Vaporeon
Mankey
Meowth
NidoranF
NidoranM
Pidgey
Rattata
Sandshrew
Snorlax
Spearow
Squirtle
Staryu
Zapdos

Mid

Abra
Articuno
Bellsprout
Caterpie
Clefairy
Eevee-Flareon
Exeggcute
Gastly
Geodude
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Jigglypuff
Eevee-Jolteon
Magikarp
Mewtwo
Moltres
Mr. Mime
Oddish
Paras
Pikachu
Poliwag
Voltorb
Weedle
Zubat

Low

Aerodactyl
Chansey
Cubone
Ditto
Doduo
Dratini
Ekans
Electabuzz
Farfetch'd
Goldeen
Grimer
Growlithe
Horsea
Jynx
Kabuto
Kangaskhan
Koffing
Krabby
Lapras
Lickitung
Machop
Magmar
Magnemite
Omanyte
Onix
Pinsir
Ponyta
Porygon
Psyduck
Rhyhorn
Scyther
Seel
Shellder
Slowpoke
Tangela
Tauros
Tentacool
Venonat
Vulpix

Excluded for unavailability:
Mew
Deoxys
Ho-oh
Lugia
Umbreon
Espeon
 
#2
This is a pleasant change of pace =)

Mankey is definitely top if you're playing in FireRed because of how early you get him and how easily he beats Brock. Unfortunately he's not available in LG iirc so I'm not sure how his tier placement is dealt with.

I'd consider moving Caterpie up to top as well. You get it so early that getting it to level 10 will be no problem, and once it learns Confusion and Sleep Powder it's pretty amazing thanks to no sleep clause ingame.

Pidgey should actually be low imo due to late evolution and lack of good moves. Wing Attack comes far too late to be actually useful and it's impossible to level up in Mt Moon.

Drowzee seems like a good fit for high. He shines in the section right after you get him and is a useful HM slave for Flash (assuming you bother to get it) right before Rock Tunnel. Hypnosis is golden and he has solid defenses by the time he evolves into Hypno.

Abra is in a bit of a pickle. I would immediately throw him into low because of how hard he is to train, but Kadabra is just absolutely amazing. Averaging it out would put him in mid.
 
#3
I disagree with Oddish/Belsprout being so great. Oddish gets nothing but like, absorb and acid until level 40 something when it gets petal dance I think. It can't really do anything else except Cut and Flash. Same with Bellsprout except Razor leaf instead of Petal dance which is better at least. The powders do come in handy though. Other than that I agree with what the above people say about Drowzee/Eevee/Pika. Paras and Jiggly are rather useless. Growlithe should be mentioned with Vulpix.
 

Mekkah

is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Super Moderator
#4
Mankey is definitely top if you're playing in FireRed because of how early you get him and how easily he beats Brock. Unfortunately he's not available in LG iirc so I'm not sure how his tier placement is dealt with.
I agree. For game exclusives, I'm just not going to care. Technically you would have to go "if you get this one, you can't get the other", which means that the value of Pokemon A is lowered by how much Pokemon B is better. Mankey, however, seems to be in both FR and LG, so he doesn't care.

I'd consider moving Caterpie up to top as well. You get it so early that getting it to level 10 will be no problem, and once it learns Confusion and Sleep Powder it's pretty amazing thanks to no sleep clause ingame.
Caterpie is horrid when you get it, all the way up to L9. Then Butterfree is awesome for a good time (although weak to everything under the sun), and in endgame he starts to suck again. That overall puts it at about Mid, I'd say, though its ability to use Flash and obviously Sleep Powder put me in doubt.

Pidgey should actually be low imo due to late evolution and lack of good moves. Wing Attack comes far too late to be actually useful and it's impossible to level up in Mt Moon.
Late final evolution, maybe, but he becomes Pidgeotto only 2 levels after your starter. Wing Attack is at 27, depending on your team size he should learn it before Erika. Mt Moon? Sure, Pidgey isn't going to be taking down Geodudes, but he takes shit all from Zubat Leech Life and there's also a Lass with two Grass types and a few other neutral trainers.

Mid maybe, low definitely not.

Drowzee seems like a good fit for high. He shines in the section right after you get him and is a useful HM slave for Flash (assuming you bother to get it) right before Rock Tunnel. Hypnosis is golden and he has solid defenses by the time he evolves into Hypno.
He shines? He has Hypnosis and Confusion at L11 (I believe that means he has them when you catch him), which is good I suppose. But he doesn't have a special advantage over the trainers or anything. He does good on the way to Rock Tunnel though and inside as well, and in Pokemon Tower and places filled with Team Rocket he is great. Natural Psychic for owning endgame...all that holds him back is his 26 evolution (and you call Pidgeotto late?). I like him.

Abra is in a bit of a pickle. I would immediately throw him into low because of how hard he is to train, but Kadabra is just absolutely amazing. Averaging it out would put him in mid.
Kadabra is good, but then Alakazam requires trading which I find somewhat unacceptable (if you can trade, you can technically import about anything), but yeah Kadabra is amazing by himself.

Abra is not only hard to train, he is also hard to catch. Basically, Abra is one of the worst Pokemon, and Kadabra one of the best. So he averages out in Mid, I think.

Eevee's moves are kinda meh. Its evolutions are alright, though their moves are...kinda alright. They all get STAB 40 BP moves and Quick Attack, but no :good: moves until late except Vaporeon who can Surf. I think Eevee's three different paths deserve three distinct positions in the tier list...how well Eevee performs most of the time depends on its evolution.

I disagree with Oddish/Belsprout being so great. Oddish gets nothing but like, absorb and acid until level 40 something when it gets petal dance I think. It can't really do anything else except Cut and Flash. Same with Bellsprout except Razor leaf instead of Petal dance which is better at least. The powders do come in handy though. Other than that I agree with what the above people say about Drowzee/Eevee/Pika. Paras and Jiggly are rather useless. Growlithe should be mentioned with Vulpix.
Absorb is good and Sleep Powder is pretty much amazing. Cut is infinite use, so until they have nothing better they're quite fine. The Grassers perform well against Misty and Surge, then tie against Erika, suck on the next three gyms and rule Giovanni...which is pretty average now that I look at it, but at least they can still Sleep Powder. Eh at best in E4 and Team Rocket and Pokemon Tower though...maybe you're kinda right.
 

Mekkah

is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Super Moderator
#5
"Finished" a list, feel free to feedback/inquire

[snipped out, list will be in first post now]

The only ones from after the League that seem of any importance to me are the 3 legendary dogs, Moltres and Mewtwo and then evolutions of somewhat decent ones like Crobat, but nearly everything seems garbage. I do want to take the Sevii islands into account qua tiers as well as the Elite Four's Second Wave.

Anyway, comments?
 
#6
I believe you can catch Moltres before beating the League. It's at One Island and you only need Strength and Rock Smash to get to the part where Moltres is.

So it should be up there with Articuno and Zapdos.
 
#7
I'm glad that you made this, but I'd like to make a few suggestions:

Lapras - Yes, its late, but if you play your cards right, you can get it with plenty of room to level up. Surf, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray is excellent. I'm surprised noone said anything before.

Marowak - Bonemerang, Double Edge, False Swipe, Brick Break. All of these through level up or cheap tm. Bonemerang is essentially earthquake. Double edge is 120 bp without recoil (rock head). Can use rock tomb if you really want. Mid or upper.

Rhydon/Golem - STAB on EQ, and decent rock moves to boot. Brick Break, as mentioned. Then, your choice - explosion on golem, or meghorn on rhydon. Golem gets double edge through level up.

Mr.Mime vs. Hypno
Mr. Mime gets Psychic, Thundebrolt, Magical Leaf. All through level up. Higher special attack and speed. Hypno doesn't get anything more than psychic - yes its defensive, but see my nidoqueen comment below.

Nidoran F - yes you get it early - but you get Nidoran M early as well. And nidoran m hits harder, faster. Nidoqueen takes hits, but its fast-paced in-game. Mid imo.

Zubat - please don't tell me its good - it sucks. golbat as well. once you get to crobat, its great, but golbat is still too frail.

Eeveelutions
Flareon - want a good fire type? Get rapidash, or arcanine, or ninetales. You'll do better in terms of speed and movepool.
Jolteon - Unless you bp an agility, you're better off with raichu for an electric - you get it early (to beat Misty if you don't have bulba), and it gets brick break off of a comparatively good attack stat (base 90 vs base 65). It gets shadow ball - big deal.
Vaporeon - Surf, Ice beam, acid armor, baton pass. Unless you baton pass an acid armor, its a mediocre water, imo. Better results with Golduck, Slowbro, etc.


Btw, you have both diglett and dugtrio mentioned.
Oh, and response to "abra is horrid, Kadabra is great" - great ball catches abra. However, having only Psychic, Psybeam, Recover, Calm Mind is still a bad choice (see Hypno).
 
#8
Chansey should probably be placed to low. Stalling really makes for a boring time ingame, and is offensively retarded. Not to mention that he takes forever to catch in the Safari Zone, even longer to get a decent natured one. And if you don't EV train it, then he falls to nearly any physical attack. Not as good as he was in Red/Blue.

Machop, on the other hand, is nearly in the same boat as Mankey. He is obtainable in Rock Tunnel and has a host of good fighting moves to choose from. Machoke does learn Cross Chop level 46, but Guts is a decent ability to employ against enemies who like to status you. I think he should go in mid.

I agree with Magikarp's mid placement. Gyarados is such a useful HM slave.

Really Vaporeon is the best of the Eevee evolutions, the rest should be moved to mid because they are outclassed by something that is found earlier. Plus, they have a shallow movepool. At least Vaporeon can make some use of it.
 
#9
Zubat definetly for mild, out of top.

Base Stats: HP 40/Attack 45/Defense 35/Speed 55/Sp Att 30/Sp Def 40

Outclassed even by Pidgey, let alone Spearow, both of whom are available more early in the game.

It's first decent move is at lvl 16 - Bite. You won't be scoring any kills at all before, with Leech Life, Supersonic and Astonish, since you're (if you catch it as early as you can) travelling through Mt Moon, encountering only Geodudes and other Zubats and AFAIK trainers that hold nothing weak against Bug/Ghost type attacks. I see no reason at all to use Zubat, but for the eventual Crobat (that apparantly you can only get after the national dex, thus after 90% of the game).
 
#10
Remove pidgey as a top option - mid at most. It is outclassed by fearow, as Fearow...
...is caught at the same time
...evolves to final faster
...gets drill peck
...has better attacking stats

Raticate is completely outdone by Snorlax in physical attacking. Super Fang is nothing good if it can't really use it. Same for meowth (though payday is useful).

If sandshrew is top, than all the more reason marowak should be.

Electabuzz > raichu. At the power plant, you'll get electabuzz at a decent level. And, not to mention no stone. Same movepool, and gets lightscreen through level up.

Oddish is mid - absorb is 20 base power, no usefulness. Doesn't get petal dance until at least the 30s, and even then, 2-3 turns with confusion. And for a cut slave, use farfetch'd. It gets Fly as well.
 
#11
Remove pidgey as a top option - mid at most. It is outclassed by fearow, as Fearow...
...is caught at the same time
...evolves to final faster
...gets drill peck
...has better attacking stats
Agreed.

Raticate is completely outdone by Snorlax in physical attacking. Super Fang is nothing good if it can't really use it. Same for meowth (though payday is useful).
Why can't Raticate not use Super Fang? I agree Meowth has nothing to add, but being available to early in the game, Rattata (Raticate) definetly has something over Snorlax.

If sandshrew is top, than all the more reason marowak should be.
Don't underestimate Sandshrew.

Electabuzz > raichu. At the power plant, you'll get electabuzz at a decent level. And, not to mention no stone. Same movepool, and gets lightscreen through level up.
Again, Pikachu is available from Viridian Forest, you need Surf to get to the PowerPlant. Imagine the horror of having to face all those Bird Keepers, Fishermen and Sailors without an Electric type!

Oddish is mid - absorb is 20 base power, no usefulness. Doesn't get petal dance until at least the 30s, and even then, 2-3 turns with confusion. And for a cut slave, use farfetch'd. It gets Fly as well.
While Absorb is 20 base power, you encounter tons and tons of Geodudes and Onixes on your way to level 30, giving you a special attack of 80 base power against low special defenders. Not even mentioning the absorbed health. Trust me, Hikers don't stand a chance against Oddish.
 

Mekkah

is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Super Moderator
#12
Guys, guys, guys. I appreciate the input, but "Spearow > Pidgey, therefore Pidgey to Mid" makes no sense at all. What if Pidgey is still good enough for Top? All Spearow > Pidgey says is just that: Spearow > Pidgey. If Pidgey is still a good Pokemon throughout the game, better than the Mids and the Lows, then it is a good candidate for High.

I believe you can catch Moltres before beating the League. It's at One Island and you only need Strength and Rock Smash to get to the part where Moltres is.
Oh yeah, I forgot exactly how all that Island stuff worked.

@Peanut-Lover

Lapras - Yes, its late, but if you play your cards right, you can get it with plenty of room to level up. Surf, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray is excellent. I'm surprised noone said anything before.
"if you play your cards right" already indicates that you have to put a ton of effort in to make Lapras good. It comes at L15 at a point where a team of four could be at about L40. Ice Beam is learned naturally, but pretty late. If Lapras has to take the Thunderbolt TM to be good, it makes Electrics on your team pretty sucky, or anything that wants it, so her value is lowered by how much it costs the rest of the team.

Marowak - Bonemerang, Double Edge, False Swipe, Brick Break. All of these through level up or cheap tm. Bonemerang is essentially earthquake. Double edge is 120 bp without recoil (rock head). Can use rock tomb if you really want. Mid or upper.
Only looking at the end result isn't going to do you any good. Cubone comes at like L14 in Rock Tunnel. I estimate you'd be at about 20-25 by then? Next gym is Grass, and though it doesn't perform :horrible: against Team Rocket and Gastly, it's nothing to write home about either. Gastly outspeeds and annoys the shit out of him. Team Rocket uses Zubats which he can hardly touch, and Rattata that own him into the ground. Ekanses and Koffing are fine, I suppose.

Rhydon/Golem - STAB on EQ, and decent rock moves to boot. Brick Break, as mentioned. Then, your choice - explosion on golem, or meghorn on rhydon. Golem gets double edge through level up.
Again, don't just look at the end result man. Rhyhorn is only available in Safari Zone, which is late on its own. I'll give him performance in Koga's and Blane's gym, but Sabrina is pretty much all over him, and he's pretty abysmal in Pokemon League. Geodude I can see for Mid, but there's a lot of opponents he simply can't fight because they OHKO-2HKO them. You have to realize this is fairly retarded considering how overleveled your team usually will be. Graveler also can't evolve without trading, and I consider trading a non-factor.

Mr.Mime vs. Hypno
Mr. Mime gets Psychic, Thundebrolt, Magical Leaf. All through level up. Higher special attack and speed. Hypno doesn't get anything more than psychic - yes its defensive, but see my nidoqueen comment below.
It comes down to Mr. Mime's EXP bonus versus having to get an Abra and trade for it. Drowzee is just a decent Psychic that comes with Confusion, which does the trick.

Nidoran F - yes you get it early - but you get Nidoran M early as well. And nidoran m hits harder, faster. Nidoqueen takes hits, but its fast-paced in-game. Mid imo.
x > y, therefore y sucks is faulty logic. Either way, it may just be the case you encounter NidoranF first (I believe that in the originals, one gender is more common than the other depending on the game). Their stats are pretty identical, especially since most of the time the small gap won't matter (they usually OHKO, they hardly take damage, etc).

Zubat - please don't tell me its good - it sucks. golbat as well. once you get to crobat, its great, but golbat is still too frail.
You hardly backed this up at all. Golbat gets great natural STAB in Wing Attack and works very well against all the Grasses and Poisons you face. He's only frail if he's at a type disadvantage against something like a Gym Leader. Generic opponents suck.

Flareon - want a good fire type? Get rapidash, or arcanine, or ninetales. You'll do better in terms of speed and movepool.
Ponyta/Rapidash comes at Cinnabar, and I'd have to not spam Repels to get it, which I'd rather do. No thanks.
Vulpix/Growlithe are as behind as Cubone if not worse. They can be alright, but I've shown that "x and y > z, therefore z sucks" is incorrect.

Jolteon - Unless you bp an agility, you're better off with raichu for an electric - you get it early (to beat Misty if you don't have bulba), and it gets brick break off of a comparatively good attack stat (base 90 vs base 65). It gets shadow ball - big deal.
Same as above. Plus, Pikachu is very hard to find in Viridian, so you probably don't have him.

Vaporeon - Surf, Ice beam, acid armor, baton pass. Unless you baton pass an acid armor, its a mediocre water, imo. Better results with Golduck, Slowbro, etc.
Golduck and Slowbro are on Seafoam Islands. That's a huge detour on its own, and it's quite late too. I'm not even going to bother with this one.

Btw, you have both diglett and dugtrio mentioned.
I know. It's because Dugtrio is one of the very few early-catchable evolved Pokemon, and probably the only one worth mentioning.

Oh, and response to "abra is horrid, Kadabra is great" - great ball catches abra. However, having only Psychic, Psybeam, Recover, Calm Mind is still a bad choice (see Hypno).
Psybeam alone OHKOs nearly everything Kadabra finds. I don't think you even have Great Balls in Cerulean, and even if you do, it's not guarantee, and I may not want to use it to catch Abra.

@Kingdrom

Chansey should probably be placed to low. Stalling really makes for a boring time ingame, and is offensively retarded. Not to mention that he takes forever to catch in the Safari Zone, even longer to get a decent natured one. And if you don't EV train it, then he falls to nearly any physical attack. Not as good as he was in Red/Blue.
He's about as good as in R/B, I'd say. The reason Chansey is not in Low is because it saves your wallet by Softboiling other party members at the cost of its own massive HP. I do really see your point though - availability is really low and low chanced.

Machop, on the other hand, is nearly in the same boat as Mankey. He is obtainable in Rock Tunnel and has a host of good fighting moves to choose from. Machoke does learn Cross Chop level 46, but Guts is a decent ability to employ against enemies who like to status you. I think he should go in mid.
Even ignoring that L14 at Rock Tunnel is underleveled by a huge amount, Machop manages to have a type disadvantage for pretty much the entire midgame.

Team Rocket? Full of Poisons.
Celadon gym? 99% Grass/Poison, and some Exeggcute. The only thing he hits neutral is Tangela.
Pokemon Tower? Gastly is totally immune to them unless you Odor Sleuth every one of them or something.
Fushia gym? Poison resists Fighting.
More Team Rocket? More Poisons. Except this time they have more Golbats with Wing Attack.
Saffron gym? A total joke. He ties with the Fighting gym though.

He's simply not good against anything.

I agree with Magikarp's mid placement. Gyarados is such a useful HM slave.
Magikarp is like the epitome of Mid.

Really Vaporeon is the best of the Eevee evolutions, the rest should be moved to mid because they are outclassed by something that is found earlier. Plus, they have a shallow movepool. At least Vaporeon can make some use of it.
I don't mind outclassment at all, as I've outlined. Flareon and Jolteon are actually quite low-maintanance compared to most Fires and Electrics, barring Charmander and a Viridian Pikachu.

@Kindred

Zubat definetly for mild, out of top.

Base Stats: HP 40/Attack 45/Defense 35/Speed 55/Sp Att 30/Sp Def 40

Outclassed even by Pidgey, let alone Spearow, both of whom are available more early in the game.

It's first decent move is at lvl 16 - Bite. You won't be scoring any kills at all before, with Leech Life, Supersonic and Astonish, since you're (if you catch it as early as you can) travelling through Mt Moon, encountering only Geodudes and other Zubats and AFAIK trainers that hold nothing weak against Bug/Ghost type attacks. I see no reason at all to use Zubat, but for the eventual Crobat (that apparantly you can only get after the national dex, thus after 90% of the game).
Yeah, Zubat sucks in Mt. Moon, and will continue to suck until 16. From 23 and on he's good though...I guess Mid is doable.

@Peanut

Electabuzz > raichu. At the power plant, you'll get electabuzz at a decent level. And, not to mention no stone. Same movepool, and gets lightscreen through level up.
Power Plant, if I'm going there, is only there when I get Surf. That's Fushia City right there - Raichu has been helping me for 6 gyms long already. And then Electabuzz comes horribly underleveled. Light Screen is useless. And if I'm in Power Plant spending ages to get a rare Pokemon anyway, why am I not throwing Ultra Balls at Zapdos, instead of wasting even more time leveling up Electabuzz?

Oddish is mid - absorb is 20 base power, no usefulness. Doesn't get petal dance until at least the 30s, and even then, 2-3 turns with confusion. And for a cut slave, use farfetch'd. It gets Fly as well.
Oddish gets STAB on it, so it's really 30. And it has a draining effect. How about I reverse the logic on Farfetch'd? If I want a Cut slave, I'll use Oddish, it gets Flash as well. What makes Oddish good is damn early Sleep Powder.

If sandshrew is top, than all the more reason marowak should be.
Feel free to elaborate. Sandshrew is caught right after Mt. Moon at ~L9. Cubone is (very rarely seen) in Rock Tunnel, about 5 levels higher. If Sandshrew doesn't have the Dig TM by now, his level lead alone wins. If he does get the Dig TM, Cubone gets >>>>>>>>>>ed.
 

cookie

Firebot Development Lad
is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
#13
What is Psyduck's availiability in FRLG? It learns all the HMs Gyarados does plus Flash. You also need to evolve Magikarp, but that is only an issue early in the game (later on you can just catch a lvl. 20+ and evolve immediately).
 
#14
Psyduck is Fire Red only

also agree with low placement because by the time you can get him if you got a Abra it sould be a Kadabra who has stab on psychic moves and doesn't learn anything by level that is useful or powerful except a level 50 (if you don't evolve it) hydropump and requires TMs and HMs to be viable but it does have some saving grace in being able to learn 5 out of the 7 HMs in Fire Red making it a fine late HM slave *can't learn cut and fly*
 
#16
Lets look at a typical tier list - Uber, OU, BL, UU/NU

If soemthing is like top tier, but can be brought down, it is known as OU, right?
If something can perform almost as well as ou pokemon, but doesn't really beat it (and is in fact outclassed in almost every way), isn't it BL?

Same here - Pidgey is great, but spearow is better.

Lapras - level up isn't a problem though. 2 or 3 gyms (if you want to do silph co before koga), victory road, vs. seeker. He'll be up in no time. Same for cubone, especially if you don't have access to Leaf Green.

Marowak has something that not many can claim in FrLg - False Swipe. Most forget that its not a tm, and only a select few learn it.

Mr. Mime - I've got news for you. It comes with confusion as well. And, a much better special attack than hypno.


Nidoran - F is in Leaf Green. M is in Fire Red.

Cubone is found in the tower, 10 levels higher than sandshrew (19) according to my reports.
 

cookie

Firebot Development Lad
is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
#17
The thing with Lapras is that it comes at a point in the game where you should already have a high-level Water Pokemon so there's no point in training it.
 
#18
Is it me or is Squirtle and Vaporeon the only 2 waters you consider good. Then who would you use as water if you didn't choose Squirtle(and didn't want to evolve eevee yet?)

Voltorb can be found right outside Rock Tunnel, and it'll only be 4-5 levels below, nothing the VS seeker can't fix. I use him to feed off the pidgeys and bats, if i don't have pikachu

I think Poliwag can be at mid. You can catch some decent leveled ones with the rod, and being a stone evo, you can easily get Poliwrath. Use stab water gun until you have surf, and you have unlimited brick break tm's from the store. There's also Body Slam and Belly Drum if you're willing to wait.

You can catch level 36+ Ponytas on Kindle Road. Not too bad if you ask me. Nothing the VS seeker can't fix. Same for Tangela on Treasure Beach. They're not too badly underleveled, but you'll be comparing with Oddish/Bellsprout.
 
#19
Biggest problem with Cubone I'd say is getting a Thick Club. That's only 5% chance on wild Cubones/Marowaks IIRC, which aren't especially common. TC-less Marowak is... flat out worse than Sandslash, so that's not good.

For what it's worth Lapras arrives at level 25 instead of 15 in FRLG, though that's still low at that point.

Why's Staryu low? You can get it by fishing as soon as you beat Pokemon Tower, which isn't so bad timewise, and Starmie has excellent stats and natural Recover. I'd place it in high tier even, personally.

I'd also disagree with putting Flareon (or pretty much any Fire type besides Charmander or Moltres, for that matter) in high on the basis that Fire is a largely pointless type in-game in FRLG. Lots of things hit weakness on Erika so she's not a big deal and it's not a good type for either version of the Elite Four. Piloswine sucks anyways and will probably die to your water type easily, Jynx is effectively weak to most physical attackers and will probably outspeed/status Flareon, and Heracross will go first and probably EQ it into oblivion. That leaves Exeggcutor, which has plenty of other exploitable weaknesses that are better overall for the E4 sequence.
 

Mekkah

is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Super Moderator
#20
Psyduck as a HM slave, sure. But I believe you do need a non-Old Rod or Surf, so it's kinda late anyway. In time for the water-based HMs, I guess.

Being outclassed by Kadabra means nothing.

Lets look at a typical tier list - Uber, OU, BL, UU/NU

If soemthing is like top tier, but can be brought down, it is known as OU, right?
If something can perform almost as well as ou pokemon, but doesn't really beat it (and is in fact outclassed in almost every way), isn't it BL?

Same here - Pidgey is great, but spearow is better.
They can't be seen as similar. The "typical tier list" is for a metagame for multiplayer against people with at least half a brain. This tier list is for a game where most of your opponents suck and where it requires effort to raise things with limited resources.

If something can perform almost as well as ou pokemon, but doesn't really beat it (and is in fact outclassed in almost every way), isn't it BL?
OU = common, too powerful for UU
BL = uncommon, too powerful for UU

Top Tier = having most of
- high availability
- no need to handhold
- can use HMs
- doesn't need resources (Potions, (unbuyable) TMs) to be good
- performs well against upcoming gyms and Elite Four

Mid Tier is having some of that, but also other things to offset it.

So, looking at Pidgey, it has:
- almost the highest availability, tied with Rattata and beaten only by your starter
- no need to handhold, or at least no more than your starter, because it only comes about 2-3 levels lower
- it gets Fly
- it's decent enough on its own to not need TMs or Potions
- it doesn't exactly rule gyms or Elite Four, but it doesn't back down on most of it either

Lapras - level up isn't a problem though. 2 or 3 gyms (if you want to do silph co before koga), victory road, vs. seeker. He'll be up in no time. Same for cubone, especially if you don't have access to Leaf Green.
I can Vs Seeker any Pokemon. That still means I have to spend ages leveling up an underleveled Pokemon. If Vs Seeker meant being underleveled wasn't a problem, that doesn't help Lapras, because then I can powerlevel anything else in the same time (or even less, since other Pokemon come at a higher relative level in pretty much all cases).

He sucks in these gyms. He can't perform well because he is underleveled. They aren't helping his low level, they're rubbing it in. Same for Victory Road...by that time, if Lapras isn't caught up yet, it really is screwed.

Marowak has something that not many can claim in FrLg - False Swipe. Most forget that its not a tm, and only a select few learn it.
Other than catching purposes (and catching isn't hard to begin with, and on the few that it is, False Swipe hardly helps), why would I want a 40 BP move that can't kill?

Mr. Mime - I've got news for you. It comes with confusion as well. And, a much better special attack than hypno.
No need to get sassy here. Never said this wasn't the case. Drowzee is simply run of the mill, Mr. Mime has a clear con (catch Abra, then trade it away) and a clear pro (gets EXP faster).

Cubone is found in the tower, 10 levels higher than sandshrew (19) according to my reports.
Must have been confused with GSC Rock Tunnel then. This time it's even worse for Cubone: he's very rare, and you've been through Silph Co. by now, so Sandshrew has kicked big butt there and is probably evolved with Slash handy. I'd rather Repel-spam this area to avoid those damn Gastly.

Is it me or is Squirtle and Vaporeon the only 2 waters you consider good. Then who would you use as water if you didn't choose Squirtle(and didn't want to evolve eevee yet?)
I think the Gyarados line is the next best, and he's clearly Mid tier for the same reason the Kadabra line is. I'm not even sure if Vaporeon is that great. You don't need a Water type on your team if that means you have to use an underleveled Pokemon. By far most of them come from Seafoam Islands, by Surfing or via some kind of advanced Rod, and in all these circumstances they tend to be too low compared to the rest of your team.

Voltorb can be found right outside Rock Tunnel, and it'll only be 4-5 levels below, nothing the VS seeker can't fix. I use him to feed off the pidgeys and bats, if i don't have pikachu
Admittedly, I like how he gets Spark, which is actually quite good. Vs Seeker is a moot argument though. But to have him beat Pidgeys quickly when you catch him, he needs your only Shock Wave TM. What I also like is Selfdestruct at L27, which is essentially killing anything you find tough to beat for the price of Revive (or not using Voltorb in this very same battle, and following ones until you get to a PokeCenter).

Mid he goes.

I think Poliwag can be at mid. You can catch some decent leveled ones with the rod, and being a stone evo, you can easily get Poliwrath. Use stab water gun until you have surf, and you have unlimited brick break tm's from the store. There's also Body Slam and Belly Drum if you're willing to wait.
What's "decent"? Which rod? Good Rod is south of Lavender, Super Rod is Fushia. He may be like 10-15 levels behind, according to that. Poliwrath is Lorelei's arch nemesis though...

You can catch level 36+ Ponytas on Kindle Road. Not too bad if you ask me. Nothing the VS seeker can't fix. Same for Tangela on Treasure Beach. They're not too badly underleveled, but you'll be comparing with Oddish/Bellsprout.
I haven't played through the entire FRLG game in a long time so I don't even remember which period you go to the first few Sevii Islands and stuff...but these locations seem to be after the major in-game quest, which really hurts their availability.

@hinode

Biggest problem with Cubone I'd say is getting a Thick Club. That's only 5% chance on wild Cubones/Marowaks IIRC, which aren't especially common. TC-less Marowak is... flat out worse than Sandslash, so that's not good.
I wouldn't count on Thick Club, no. Basically, 99% of the time, you won't be having a Thick Club Cubone.

For what it's worth Lapras arrives at level 25 instead of 15 in FRLG, though that's still low at that point.
That's only 6 levels away from STAB Ice Beam, which actually makes it slightly more considerable. Too bad he still sucks.

Why's Staryu low? You can get it by fishing as soon as you beat Pokemon Tower, which isn't so bad timewise, and Starmie has excellent stats and natural Recover. I'd place it in high tier even, personally.
Recover at 15 plus HM Surf and being able to evolve straight away is actually quite decent indeed. Definitely Mid at least then.

Fire-type rant
Hm, I like Fire because it's pretty exclusive and they hit hard on the numerous Grass-trainers you encounter, then again that isn't really anything special considering Grass type simply not being very good. You're probably right about the Elite Four though.
 
#21
Poliwag, Slowpoke and Shellder can be obtained same way as Staryu with the Good Rod, that is after Pokemon Tower. You can get some at level 24 or higher, that's about 5 levels below.

And the first 3 Sevii islands can be accessed after defeating Blaine, so you actually have decent-leveled Ponytas, Tangelas, Slowpokes, and even Persians to catch, around level 35-ish.
 
#22
sandshrew is easy to catch, and good until you get to around level 30 and realize that your only attack is slash. He doesn't even get a ground move until level 50 or so, and then it's sand tomb, which is an awful move, and I hate burning TMs in a runthrough
 
#24
You get cubone before Erika, after the game corner fiasco. All you need is the scope lens.

Lapras - I hope you don't mean that it comes at too low of a level - its ranked as one of the best pokemon in the in-game. Despite the low level, it is very easy to level up. Blaine, Giovanni, Victory Road - he'll be levelled up in no time.

Lets look at the other options...
Vaporeon - surf, ice beam, high hp. its ok, but mediocre. Oh, you get it early
Blastoise - its a starter, so its not really a competitor.
Gyarados - lol, its a water type with great movepool and no special attack stat.
Poliwrath - I loled even harder.
Starmie/Slowking - too late
Tentacruel is tempting. A bit late, though. And almost no movepool.
Seaking - I wouldn't be caught dead using it.
Dewgong - too late
 

Mekkah

is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Super Moderator
#25
You can give Dig to Sandslash as a STAB move if you like. Not many other better candidates for Dig
Not that I don't like Sandslash but there are plenty: Nido's, Squirtle, Charmander, Mankey and your generic Normal type (Rattata would love it).

Lapras - I hope you don't mean that it comes at too low of a level - its ranked as one of the best pokemon in the in-game. Despite the low level, it is very easy to level up. Blaine, Giovanni, Victory Road - he'll be levelled up in no time.
Who ranks it as the best? I wouldn't. Blaine would be good for Lapras if he wasn't like the second to last gym and Lapras resisted Fire. A good portion of Giovanni's gym isn't Ground at all, there's Fighting types, Nidorino, a few Normals, etc. Plus Giovanni is even later. If Lapras needs these late things to play catch up, how is it any good?

I like how you call Staryu too late when you get it, you know, earlier than Lapras. Anyway, competition among types hardly matters, as I said.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.