Frustration > Return?

#1
I wasn't exactly sure where to put this because it doesn't really fit into Small Subjective Changes, being a bit too controversial for that and not really at all "small". Seeing as how Pokemon Online has just become our new preferred simulator, and because the default setting for happiness is 0, we might want to change all references of Return to those of Frustration. Many newer players might not know that Return behaves this way on default, or how to change it even if this is the case. Because the main role of our analyses is to benefit our users, we don't want them charging onto the ladder with a move weak than Rage by accident and there really is no downside.

Changing it would be fairly mindless work and I'm sure not intensely difficult; in fact, if some people from C+C could weigh in on this or if the people seem to approve it, I could just hop on SCMS and do it myself (maybe, I don't want to commit to anything yet). Is this a change worth making? Even if nobody wants to spend their time making such a stupid change, if I were to go and do it I would need some approval before making tons of changes to analyses.
 

supermarth64

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#2
IMO Return is better than Frustration overall because it's a lot easier to raise a Pokemon's happiness from sheer level ups and EV training than it is from decreasing its happiness (on the cartridge) vs just typing in a simple number in PO.

Edit: Oglemi's slower than me even on the forums.
 

Oglemi

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#3
While Frustration would make more sense from the PO simulator stand-point, Return makes waaay more sense from the Wi-Fi stand-point.

We've been saying Return forever, no need to change it now.
 
#4
Well I'm not sure if our sets are meant to cater to in-game or simulator players! I always assumed that the sets were meant for the simulator games- for example, I used to find it ludicrous that Skarmory has listed Whirlwind instead of Roar when Roar is a TM and Whirlwind an Egg Move (which for my RNG-retarded self is more difficult to attain). Then I realized that Whirlwind continued to work on Soundproof Pokemon whereas Roar didn't, despite the total lack of Soundproof 'mons in OU, and that was why.

And anyways I think people will probably recognize in-game that Return and Frustration work exactly the same and would give their Tauros or whatever Return anyway- unlike simulator sets, which some people follow religiously and without thought. I guess people can recognize that Return is easier than Frustration in game, and on the simulator they might not recognize the difference (namely that, unless they change it, Return has 10 power). Of course this isn't really my decision but I think Frustration would be better on the guides if we are trying to cater to a mix of competitive in-game and simulator players.
 

Firestorm

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#5
I like the idea of keeping Return and maybe asking coyotte if he'd be so kind as to make Happiness maxed by default. This way we can cater to both sets of players. That or note that Frustration should be used on Pokemon Online in descriptions of sets that use Return.
 
#6
Yeah actually I agree with Smith on this one. Earlier in BW I was using Return and I couldn't understand why it was doing like 2% to everything. The box on PO is anything but obvious, and I have to make a mental note to use frustration instead of Return. This is definitely not apparent to users (even me) so I think it would be ideal to put a slash or mention it somewhere in the analysis.
 

Oglemi

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#7
I feel like we have to remain the most neutral when writing the analyses, as well as being the most competitive as possible.

Return is much easier for Wi-Fi and in-game users, and while Frustration may be "easier" for simulator users, it really isn't that hard to type in 255 in the Happiness bar in PO. It is really hard to train a Pokemon and not have its Happiness increase in-game.

As for the Roar vs. Whirlwind example. Whirlwind would have been listed no matter what because it is the most competitive, regardless if there are any Soundproof Pokemon in OU. Also, Whirlwind was indeed much more valuable than Roar in RSE when Baton Pass and Soundproof Mr. Mime ran rampant in the tier.
 
#8
I think the point is that, simulator users might not know that they would need to change Frustration to Return, like undisputed said; wi-fi users, contrary to popular belief, are usually smart enough to figure out that they should run Return over Frustration. However Firestorm is right in saying that having the default setting at 255 would be much easier.

And yes the Skarmory example isn't a good example of this, I just wanted to emphasize that to some people, it is confusing so as to whether or not Smogon analyses appeal to in-game or competitive players. It was meant merely as a bridge into a Return v Frustration discussion.
 

Oglemi

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#9
Again, I feel we should be trying to be as neutral as possible, and Return is as neutral as possible. Frustration is in no way neutral towards in-game users. And yes, I wholly agree that we should ask coyotte to change the counter to 255 instead of leaving it at 0.

Of course, this more belongs in the C&C forum, so if a super mod sees this, please move this here.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean we should be neutral towards both users when writing analyses, while at the same time being as competitive as possible.
 

Ray Jay

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#10
IMO Return is better than Frustration overall because it's a lot easier to raise a Pokemon's happiness from sheer level ups and EV training than it is from decreasing its happiness (on the cartridge) vs just typing in a simple number in PO.
This. Movesets should really reflect the cartridge. Just because there's a glitch in PO that allows certain illegal movesets to be used doesn't mean we put said set on Smogon. I believe the same goes for this.
 
#11
I prefer Return over Frustration for many reasons. First and foremost, it is the shorter of the two words to type. As an analysis writer, I think that's very relevant. This is especially relevant for Pokemon with multiple slashes in that slot; for a BW example, consider that Excadrill has Return / Rapid Spin / X-Scissor slashed together. Secondly, Oglemi and SM64 are right in that Return is the most relevant to the wifi community. We cater to both equally because they are both relevant to the site's goals, interests, and philosophy, so we certainly cannot discount that. Lastly, Return has become the convention; we're used to it, and changing it now would confuse a lot more users than fail to remember that happiness needs to be 255 to use it at full power. These reasons combine to make the solution to this proposal clear; keep Return.
 
#12
Yeah, what really needs to happen is that Happiness needs to be maxed by default. In an in-game situation there's really no reason that a player with competently trained Pokemon won't have maxed happiness by the time they battle, so for the most part, it makes total sense for happiness to be by default maxed.

I get that simulator shortcomings kinda have to be accounted for, but in general, when people talk about "that 102 base power normal move that nearly every Pokemon gets", the reflex is to talk about Return, even though Frustration is used now because people would rather just set one move than set a move and then also set a value (since it used to be that the value was irrelevant because both Return and Frustration had 102 power on Shoddy by default due to no happiness level mechanic.
 
#15
Yeah, I remember Shoddy Battle; Colin was too lazy to implement happiness, so he just made them both 102 BP, since that's the highest they have.

On a more relevant note, happiness should be maximized by default.
 
#16
return is really fun to use against eccentric ditto or whatever the fuck it's called now. i love watching the opponent do like 2%.
Therefore on po return is better anyway /: On wifi, I'd guess making your pokemon miserable would be beneficial since eccentric ditto probably would have some happiness /: So this is more preference than anything.
 
#17
Um how is return easier from a wifi standpoint? When ever you trade, which is fairly easy to do, your happiness goes to 0, so before any battle all you need to do is trade back and forth, and your happiness is back to 0, and frustration is at full power. While when you lose a battle with return... what do you do? Battle a few wild pokemon? Honestly I find that more annoying.

Edit: Never mind, its reset to 70 not 0 after a trade. In that case return is better.
 
#18
Um how is return easier from a wifi standpoint? When ever you trade, which is fairly easy to do, your happiness goes to 0, so before any battle all you need to do is trade back and forth, and your happiness is back to 0, and frustration is at full power. While when you lose a battle with return... what do you do? Battle a few wild pokemon? Honestly I find that more annoying.

Edit: Never mind, its reset to 70 not 0 after a trade. In that case return is better.
Whenever you walk happiness goes up, and with ditto there is a chance its been sitting in the daycare all day too.
 

Hipmonlee

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#19
Interestingly enough, in PO in CC return and frustration will always have 102 bp unless you have both on the same set.

What I would recommend is something like this, where if you add frustration or return it will set the happiness automatically. It's how I would do it anyway.

Have a nice day.
 
#21
If you use Frustration instead of Return, it's a sign that you're an abusive trainer. ;) That's why i use Return and enter the Happiness level. IMO the default Happiness should be 255 rather than 0.:heart:
 
#22
Thats way too much of a guessing game to be in an anylsis, like rivalry, "oh most good trainers make there pokemon female, so if your rivalry pokemon is female your ok and set for power." Thats not how it works, sure use a female with rivalry, but then they could just be male. Same with ditto, perhaps if you run frustration for ditto, you might screw it over, but then again they could just go for 0 happiness too. Its the same story for speed creep, it has no place in anyalsises.
 
#24
In early 5th Gen, I made a Rain Dance team based around Swift Swim Evolite Poliwhirl with Sub/Belly Drum/Waterfall/Return.

PO (at least at the time) set Happiness to max default, so Choice Scarf Dittos would revenge with it.

Then, I switched to Frustration, the Ditto's wouldn't be able to revenge kill with because it had minimal base damage, and I continued my sweep.
 

Sprocket

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#25
It's a whole lot easier to raise happiness than it is to lower happiness. In fact it's easy to accidentally raise happiness without trying.