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Fun in the Sun: Sun in the Dream World Metagame

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Omicron, Mar 2, 2012.

  1. Omicron

    Omicron
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    ~SUNSHINE~


    ♫ Walkin' on sunshine, woah-oh ~

    Overview

    With the addition of Drought Ninetales, sun has become a very viable weather playstyle in OU. In Dream World however, there are even more benefits. In the Dream World metagame, Blaziken, a huge threat that was deemed uber, is released, and allowed into gameplay again. Blaziken is arguably one of sun's biggest powerhouses, being able to destroy the opposition even without a Swords Dance boost. Being able to use Baton Pass also helps it further as a team player. Because the Dream World allows certain moves and unreleased Pokemon / Dream World abilities that may have been illegal thanks to real limitations, the metagame is diverse, and full of possibilities.

    One reason I wanted to make this thread is to help readers get a better sense of just how powerful and useful sun can be in the Dream World Metagame. As it stands, sun is probably the least common weather in the metagame, with sandstorm and rain teams overflowing the ladder, probably because of things such as Excadrill being unbanned, the release of Keldeo, etc. However, sun has a great many threats of their own, and if used correctly, can easily dominate other weather teams.

    Effects of Sun
    The following effects occur while Sunny Day is active:
    • The Base Power of Fire-type moves is increased by 50%
    • Pokemon with the ability Chlorophyll have their Speed doubled
    • The Base Power of Water-type moves is decreased by 50%
    • SolarBeam's charge turn is removed
    • Growth increases Attack and Special Attack by two stages
    • Sunlight prevents the freeze status from being inflicted
    • Thunder's and Hurricane's accuracy is reduced to 50%
    • Weather Ball effectively becomes a 150 Base Power Fire-type move
    • Synthesis, Moonlight, and Morning Sun recover 66% of the user's HP
    • Pokemon with the ability Solar Power have their Special Attack increased by 50% but lose 12.5% of their maximum HP per turn
    • Pokemon with the ability Leaf Guard become immune to status (note: the user is prevented from using the move Rest)
    • Pokemon with the Dry Skin ability lose 12.5% of their maximum HP per turn
    • Cherrim and Castform change formes

    Of the above listed effects of sun, the most important pertaining to battle are: Chlorophyll Pokemon get their Speed doubled, Fire-type moves' Base Power is increased, Water-type moves' Base Power is decreased, and SolarBeam's charge turn is removed. Sun may seem inferior to the other weather playstyles because of the lack of abusers, but in reality, there are plenty of abusers, as it can range from Chlorophyll users such as Venusaur, to powerful Fire-types such as Blaziken and Volcarona, and more. Many of the other Chlorophyll abusers are in the lower tiers, which may also explain the relative lack of sun teams on the Dream World ladder.

    Another important thing to note is that Ninetales suffers from a weakness to the other two main weather setters; Tyranitar and Politoed both have the type advantage against Ninetales, meaning that Ninetales will almost always lose when paired against them. This is why sun teams are particularly hard to use and execute well, as Ninetales is rather fragile, and even suffers a weakness to Stealth Rock. Sun players must always exercise caution when playing with Ninetales, as they must preserve it for as long as possible, at least until the opposing weather setter has fallen.

    The Pokemon

    [​IMG]

    Being the sun-bringer, Ninetales is obviously the most important member of any sun team. Despite its relatively low stats, it can hit hard with a sun-boosted STAB Fire Blast, and it also has many support moves such as Hypnosis, Will-O-Wisp, and more, so that you can cripple your unsuspecting opponent. As mentioned previously, Ninetales is such a crucial member of any sun team such that playing with it must be taken with extreme caution. Chlorophyll sweepers are near-useless without the sun provided by Ninetales.

    A common mistake that new players will do is to always lead with Ninetales. While this may seem like a great idea in order to get the weather in your favor, it is not always a good idea, unless your opponent has no weather setter of any kind. Even then, you shouldn't play recklessly with Ninetales, as the opponent may carry some sort of weather move in order to combat other weather teams.

    Taken directly from the Dream World analysis for Ninetales, the following quote explains why Ninetales should not be used as a lead under most circumstances:

    Here is an example set, perhaps Ninetales's most common set, as it comes in handy against other weather setters such as Tyranitar and Politoed.

    Ninetales (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 184 SDef / 60 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sunny Day
    - Fire Blast
    - SolarBeam
    - Will-O-Wisp

    For more information about this set and how to use it, please check out the analysis here.

    [​IMG]

    Venusaur is the face of sun sweepers around. It has received the ability Chlorophyll from the Dream World, which by now you should know doubles its Speed in the sun. Although Venusaur may possess a rather underwhelming stat spread, its movepool more than makes up for that. With access to moves such as Sleep Powder, Growth, Giga Drain (which was previously illegal with Chlorophyll), SolarBeam, Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, and more, Venusaur is a powerful all-around threat that every sun player should consider as an addition to their team. After a single Growth in the sun, Venusaur's Attack AND Special Attack is doubled, instantly turning it into a monstrous powerhouse.

    Here is an example set, should you wish to try it out.

    Venusaur (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 32 HP / 252 SAtk / 224 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Growth

    [​IMG]

    Blaziken, a starter Pokemon that has come a long way, first to be pushed into the Ubers tier thanks to its ridiculously good Dream World ability, Speed Boost. In the Dream World metagame however, Blaziken is back and ready to burn its opponents into a charred crisp. In the Dream World, Blaziken is also able to use Baton Pass, which enables it to become a great partner on a Baton Pass chain, as it doesn't need to worry about boosting its Speed. A great overall sweeper, and it can function inside and outside of sun just as well.

    One last example set:

    Blaziken (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Protect
    - Swords Dance
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Flare Blitz

    Discussion

    To differ from what the usual weather threads end up turning into, I'm going to highlight several discussion options that I think will help this thread go in the right direction.

    Talk about why sun isn't as prevalent in the Dream World metagame:
    • I've already outlined several reasons, but tell me what you think about it.
    • Why isn't sun more popular, especially as it has so many great sweepers to choose from?
    • How can it become more popular?

    Discuss different sun teams:
    • Post your thoughts and ideas here on different sun teams; be creative! Think outside the box, and come up with strategies that sun teams can use in order to be effective and efficient.
    • What makes a good sun team? Discuss this in detail here.

    How can we make sun a more popular playstyle?
    • Sun is, like I said previously, not the most popular playstyle.
    • How can we change that?
    • What works best on a sun team?
    • What are the defining aspects of sun teams that make them stand out in the crowd?
    • What is so great about sun anyway?
  2. MegaKick

    MegaKick

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    Darmanitan, Victini, and most importantly Chandelure are 3 very powerful abusers of fire type moves and combo well with blaziken, as chandelure can trap things like slowbro and jellicent while victini and darmanitan can rack up massive damage with STAB flare blitz and V-create.
    Charizard deserves it own sentence since choice scarf charizard's solar power fire blast is faster and stronger then even specs latios draco meteor and doesnt require you to switch out.
    Volcarona loves sun boosted fire blast and since water moves are weakened he can set up quiver dances for days on the likes of vaporeon and jellicent, morning sun up and sweep.
    Typhlosion deserves a mention just cause he is obviously the most badass starter ever. Oh, and eruption is cool i guess.
    So yeah those are pretty much the relevant fire types. One big advantage for sun is that some of the biggest abusers of the weather lose a big weakness so they can take hits from their "counters" and keep on going.
  3. The Reptile

    The Reptile AMH REALLY SPHEALING IT
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    I think the main reason Sun isn't as dominant as the other weathers (except hail. but lolhail) is because most of the sun abusers (the Fire-types) are weak to SR, including the main sun setter itself, and all of them are hit by spikes (except Charizard, but SR make him cry anyways). The only main Fire-type sun abuser that isn't weak to Stealth Rocks is Blaziken. As for the chlorophyll abusers, we have venasaur as the only truly common one.
  4. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    I've already outlined several reasons, but tell me what you think about it. I think that sun is really good for Chandelure and Heatran, and hinders Keldeo greatly.

    Why isn't sun more popular, especially as it has so many great sweepers to choose from? People just don't use it, and sand is extremely popular with Garchomp and Excadrill.

    How can it become more popular? People need to use sun, it also transforms Blaziken at +2 into a death sentence.
  5. jap killa

    jap killa

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    Here is my opinion on why sun is not popular:

    1. Sun is not very prevalent because most of the abusers are grounded and/or weak to stealth rock. This puts them at a huge disadvantage, due to the prevalence of stall in dream world.

    2. Sun is not very popular because it is not very popular! With rain or sand teams, most of the time there will be no weather war to be fought because they are so popular, but with sun,you will rarely come across another sun team to not have a weather war with.

    3. Rain nullifies water, which is great for defensive teams. Some of the best defensive pokes, such as skarmory, ferrothorn, and forretress are all weak to fire, and have their weaknesses toned down a bit.

    4. Most offensive rain abusers gain stab on water moves boosted by the rain. Chlorophyll users get no boosted stabs from the sun.

    5. Rain boosted moves are much better if the weather is changed. Thunder and hurricaine are only made inaccurate if a weather starter switches into them, then the poke can proceed to switch out. However, with solarbeam you are forced to become setup fodder.

    Howeer, this does not mean that sun is not viable. all of these flaws can be played around, and since fire is such a great offensive type, it has potential.
  6. Lemonade.

    Lemonade. formerly V0x
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    I think part of the lack of sun is players having bias toward it. Rain and sand are "hyped" since they are known to have broken Pokemon, those Pokemon primarily being broken because of respective weathers. In sun's case, I don't think Blaziken was banned because of sun; it was more Speed Boost and less other factors.

    I know I didn't want to play sun for a while because it didn't really stick out for me: I heard tons about rain and sand, and thus have played those much more. Now that I've experimented, Sunny Day Ninetales baiting and screwing TTar and Politoed is amazing, especially since so many other switch ins are maimed by SolarBeam or Fire Blast.

    I think a successful DW sun RMT could boost the popularity of the weather. A well constructed team with relatively simple play would ease them into the playstlye, which could lead to their own experimentation. Though I won't discount that it could just be the overall higher upkeep of sun teams and Fire-types in general.
  7. Calm Pokemaster

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    I have seen so many of the people lower down on the ladder having a ''sun'' team with ninetales and randomly slapping a few other fire-types on, failing with their sun team, and then switching to other weathers [i.e abusing excadrill in the sand or manaphy in the rain].

    The problem is that people fail to realise that proper teambuilding is key to running a sun team successfully. You simply don't randomly spam 5 fire-types or likewise on a sun team; indeed, 2 sun abusers, a ninetales, and 3 pokemon that can support these sun abusers [for example, soak up boosted Fire-type moves, weaken certain troublesome threats, or remove SR] is what a generic sun team looks like. Instead, people look at other overrated threats like Excadrill, Manaphy, Garchomp, etc, and stop using sun, just because these Pokemon are ''easier'' to abuse. Agreed, with the prevalence of SR, you need to predict properly to bring in a sweeper like Volzarona unscathed, but when used correctly, sun abusers can be very hard to stop. The offensive pressure they create is more-or-less on par with sand and rain abusers, the only catch being you need to provide them the proper support.

    By the way, I think most of you would have seen this, but here is an interesting Ninetales set I found on Stone_Cold's RMT [with some of my additions]:

    Ninetales (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SpA / 184 SpD / 60 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Solarbeam / Hidden Power Fighting
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sunny Day
    - Flamethrower

    This can easily cripple other weather starters with some prediction. Predict the Tyranitar switch-in, and either Sunny Day to remove the sand or Will-O-Wisp off the bat to cripple it for the rest of the match. Stone_Cold has HP Fighting for dealing with Heatran switch-ins, but you can always put Solarbeam there to screw over Politoed along with Sunny Day. Roar is almost completely outclassed by Sunny Day [which is why I replaced it]. I changed the EVs to match the currently onsite DW analysis's one, as this allows Ninetales to survive Modest Specs Politoed's Hydro Pump in the sun while still outspeeding Adamant Excadrill.
  8. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Where do we get the opinion that sun isn't popular? Every time I go on the ladder, the Find Battle button hates me and gives me sun teams to counter-team me o_0. Anyway, where's Volcarona in the OP? It's probably the second biggest powerhouse to exist after Blaziken (Venusaur sucks, I'm sorry). You should probably add other Chlorophyll abusers and Fire-types too. I reckon the biggest reason why sun teams aren't as popular is just because of how much Ninetales sucks. SR weak, weak to the other inducers and mediocre stats just turn people right off.

    Although, if you want a way to kill off other inducers, you can either use Dugtrio and/or this baby:

    Chandelure @ Life Orb / Colbur Berry
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    - Sunny Day
    - Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    - SolarBeam
    - Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting

    I think I've raved about this set all too much everywhere else. Basically, switch into Politoed on the revenge (apart from Scarf/Specs Hydro Pump), set up Sunny Day and just kill it. If you run Colbur Berry, you can also pick off weakened Tyranitars that lack Stone Edge or Earthquake.
  9. Danilo

    Danilo
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    Literally no one prepares for volcarona. u can just lead with it and if they dont have chansey/tenta, u win on the spot. the thing is the nuts in and out of sun
  10. blaZofgold

    blaZofgold

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    Sun has the most versatility in the sheer power it can support. Chlorophyll is only half of the picture: one-turn Solarbeam and double STAB Fire moves have more uses than imaginable. I think people turn away from Sun because there aren't enough Sun-abusing abilities, and for the fact that most Chlorophyll abusers can't do much with the Sun down.

    Nevertheless, double STAB Fire moves is scary as hay. Here's a sample set:

    Typhlosion @ Choice
    252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Flash Fire
    -Eruption
    -Solarbeam
    -Focus Blast
    -Hidden Power [Ice, Rock, Ground]

    Choice Scarf Eruption in the Sun. Choice SPECS Eruption in the Sun. 109 SpA and 100 Spe. Seriously, this guy is underrated.
  11. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    That set you mention badly needs a strong secondary Fire STAB, as residual damage will weaken Eruption's power to the point where Fire Blast or Flamethrower will be more powerful.

    Now on to that set. Sure, Typhlosion does have decent SpA and Speed, but standard Jellicent walks all over it if you run Scarf, since both Hidden Power Grass and Eruption fall short of the 2HKO, Jellicent can stall out their PP with Recover, and SR also weakens Eruption further. Even a weakened Scald in the sun will bring down Eruption's power permanently. Specs has the power to 2HKO Jellicent in the sun, but that's basically invitation for Heatran to come in, snag a Flash Fire boost, and blast the switch-in with a STAB, sun, Flash Fire-boosted Fire Blast; if you predict Heatran coming in and Focus Blast, something like Volcarona or Dragonite can set up. Earthquake Venusaur also forces Specs Typhlosion out, and can then snag a Growth boost and sweep if its counters are weakened.

    That's not the only thing. BulkyDD Multiscale Dragonite walks all over Typhlosion if SR is not on the field [Specs Eruption does 34.45 - 40.67%, Scarf does 23.05 - 27.2%], and can stall out its PP with Roost or set up DD. Even Specs HP Ice doesn't come anywhere near an OHKO, so that's another invitation for Dragonite to DD up, and KO with +1 Dragon Claw.

    Overall, while Typhlosion is pretty decent with Eruption, the Specs set is revenge killed or set up on pretty easily, while the Scarf set is walled easily by Jellicent and set up on by threats depending on what move it is locked into, so it is mostly outclassed by stuff like Volcarona, Blaziken, or even Venusaur.
  12. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    if i were to use Scarf Typhlosion, I'd almost certainly use it alongside that ~fancy~ support Lilligant set.

    Lilligant @ Life Orb
    Modest
    252 SpA / 64 SpD / 192 Spe
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power Rock
    - Sleep Powder
    - Healing Wish

    just a shame that it heals before hazards as opposed to after, but tbh if you're using a Sun team without Rapid Spin support then you're doing it wrong anyway.

    another factor to consider when using Typhlosion is how he matches up to Charizard who significantly outpowers Typhlosion's Eruption with his Solar Power Fire Blast (even Flamethrower is comparable in damage) and has that useful ground immunity, secondary STAB (which deals up to 95% to +1 Keldeo in the Sun, making him a useful check), and doesn't need to be at 100% to do his job so can take advantage of his occasionally usable defensive potential a little more freely (eg. switching into U-turns, unboosted Fighting attacks etc.)
  13. blunder

    blunder

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    In sun has anyone ever tried a Scarf Heatran? I used it a bit in DW OU and I was pretty impressed with what it could hit under the sun

    Heatran @ Choice Scarf
    Timid
    252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    - Fire Blast
    - SolarBeam
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    If I recall correctly a Fire Blast from Tran in the sun does 60-70% to standard Rotom-W while a hydro pump will do like 60% back
  14. Harsha

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    Something I'd like to point out is that Gliscor, the most used check to physical attackers in this current metagame cannot even reliably deal with Air Balloon Blaziken. In fact, Blaziken will OHKO standard Gliscor at +2 in the sun with an Air Balloon Flare Blitz, so the most reliable check would probably be Slowbro, a nonexistent threat in this metagame. If Blaziken did not have to suffer from so much recoil damage I am sure that it would be banned from DW OU. Some things I've been playing around with have been Magma Storm Heatran who does extremely well in the sun, though Excadrill forces lots of switches which is problematic.

    I'd like to see more Sawsbuck usage. The biggest problem for Sawsbuck in standard OU is easily Choice Band Scizor, who sees next to no usage in DW OU. With somewhat reliable recovery in Horn Leech, I think it could actually be a top-tier threat in the metagame. It can Swords Dance as it forces a switch and then attack with Jump Kick, Return / Double Edge, and heal itself with Horn Leech which is a fairly powerful move. It basically makes Sawsbuck a less bulky Venusaur.

    Now one of the most important pieces to any good sun team is choosing the right Rapid Spin user to help you out. Easily the best Rapid Spin user in the metagame is Excadrill, and I have found it to do extremely well on sun teams because it serves as a check to opposing sandstorm (60% of teams in this metagame) and it has a fairly decent Speed. The standard Swords Dance set worked wonders for me because it allowed me to capitalize on the opponent's momentum, and I think it should be considered on nearly every sun team in this metagame due to its effectiveness.

    Basically, with the lack of diversity in the tier, it is very hard to create a successful sun team, though it can be done with the adequate amount of preparation for opposing weather. Rain is a big problem for sun teams as Politoed will still do a lot of damage to Venusaur (who is often forced to take the Water-type attacks from Politoed), so it becomes harder to play these teams, especially due to rain's hindering effect on Fire-types. Sand is actually easier to deal with in my opinion because Blaziken, a staple on most sun teams, deals so well with opposing abusers sans Excadrill (though this problem is solved if Blaziken reaches +3 Speed).
  15. jrrrrrrr

    jrrrrrrr wubwubwub
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    The main problem with sun is that all of the abusers are so frail and weak to some of the most common attacking types. I don't know of a single team I've made without at least one Stealth Rock user, or an Earthquake user, or a water-type. If you can keep the momentum going then Sun can be really effective, but one mispredict and you're out a sweeper.

    Volcorona, Blaziken, Venusaur, Dugtrio, Ninetales, Chandelure...they all have one thing in common: they're extremely frail and lack any defensive presence. Compare this to Sand teams that have Tyranitar, Garchomp and Excadrill, all pokemon with huge defensive stats and great defensive typings. They can switch into a lot of things and threaten immediately.
  16. Omicron

    Omicron
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    I've been experimenting a lot with sun teams lately, and I've found that almost no teams are prepared for Volcarona. After a boost or two, it can easily rip through the majority of teams, even opposing weather teams. With a set of QD / Fire Blast / Bug Buzz / Substitute it can easily set up on half the metagame. I have searched for great teammates to Volcarona, as it has an obvious crippling Stealth Rock weakness, and I have concluded that Tentacruel / Starmie are the best spinners, the former for its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes and the latter for its Speed and offensive presence. Of course, opposing weather starters are always a problem, but running something like SunnyBeamer Chandelure or Dugtrio can easily take care of that. Sun teams are admittedly difficult to both build and play well, but if you manage to get past that first initial step, then you're golden.

    Harsha, I noticed that you mentioned Excadrill as a Rapid Spin user for sun teams, but this is hardly ideal because of rain teams. Excadrill just adds another Water weakness to your team, which is something that sun teams are hard-pressed to manage. Both Starmie and Tentacruel provide a very useful Water-type resistance, as well as Rapid Spin. Starmie also gets Thunderbolt to maim Politoed and friends, while Tentacruel can burn the shit outta everything with Scald.
  17. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    An extremely underrated sun sweeper is Tangrowth. Its mixed offenses combined with its movepool is fantastic. Here was a set I was running for a while.

    Tangrowth @ Leftovers / Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    Nature: Naive
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Growth
    -Power Whip
    -Earthquake
    -Hidden Power Fire

    Runs very similarly to Venusaur but hits much harder physically. Its Special Attack does not need much investment because Hidden Power Fire in the sun after one Growth absolutely murders Ferrothorn, Forretress, and that not-so-common Scizor. Unfortunately, even with Clorophyll and Naive, Tangrowth cannot outspeed +Spe Scarf Genesect. That is a huge problem. Dragonite is the main counter as the best you are doing to it is Hidden Power Fire, while it sets up or kills you. Still, it's a great alternative to Venusaur if you are looking for something a bit more powerful and physically beefy.
  18. Harsha

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    Yea I won't argue with this since it's definitely true, but I honestly cannot remember a moment where I played a team without sand / weatherless offense in the 1350+ range. In the lower part of the ladder there's a lot of variety though, but I just tried to take the opponent's momentum because he or she inevitably carries Tyranitar at least 70% of the time (I think Tyranitar will be here in the next usage statistics).
  19. Danilo

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    Still very little Volcarona usage. One day you(not "u" TOBES) or the ladder as a whole is going to learn a lesson in Volcarona. If it ain't rainstall it's done. If it aint Chansey/Tenta it's done. Bulky Sub Quiver is the business. Quiver Dance + HP Rock is the business. The thing is just the business.

    Speaking of underrated sun mons, Heatran is pretty good in this meta with Genesects and Chandelure's. Every good team needs a Steel-type and Heatran is one of the betters ones, especially since Duggy is not seen
  20. Frizy

    Frizy dont change my ct fuckers
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    I definitely agree that Volcarona is a beast, but please please please do not use HP Rock on offensive Volc (or any volc really..) with sun support; it's such a waste. The only pokemon you hit harder with HP Rock than with a sun boosted Fire Blast are Dragonite, Gyarados, Ninetales, and Chandelure. Assuming sun is up, the first three die to a +1 Fire Blast after sr anyway (and HP Rock isn't killing dnite through Multiscale), while Chandelure dies even without sr. That last slot generally should go to either HP Ground or Morning Sun; the former destroying non balloon Heatran, who can otherwise stop Volcarona in its tracks and be quite annyoing for sun teams (especially ones lacking Dugtrio); while the latter allows for an easier setup on weak water attacks and makes revenging Volc with priority (CBNite's ExtremeSpeed, for example) much harder.

    Anyway, back to the topic:

    Even though I personally think that sun should be used quite a bit more, I can see a few reasons for its lack of popularity compared to the other two weathers (no one cares about hail). The main one is probably what j7r touched on; sun sweepers, and even most supporters (duggy/espeon) are pretty frail. This also restricts sun to a single playstyle; both sand and rain can play hyper offense, bulky offense, and even stall, while sun is restricted solely to momentum based hyper offense (although, I've seen sun stall work in bw ou, but Chandelure trapping your weather mon sucks..).

    I think the other reason is the combination of the mindset from standard ou that sun is inferior, and the fact that rain (Manaphy, Keldeo, Thundurus) and sand (Excadrill, Garchomp) gained more 'notable' toys from Dream World compared to sun (Blaziken, Chandelure kinda..).

    As mentioned previously, the frail yet hard hitting - almost glass cannon like - nature of sun sweepers really makes sun stand out. The sheer power behind a +2 Blaziken's Flare Blitz, or a +1 Fire Blast from Volcarona while in the sun is astounding. Once Blaziken under the sun gets a Swords Dance and one or two Speed Boost boosts under its belt, it becomes nearly unstoppable. For example, a Jolly LO (even though lo kinda sucks..) Flare Blitz under the sun deals 93.95 - 110.71% to 252/240 Bold Tentacruel, which is pretty insane. Venusaur is rather underrated (stfu shrang), even though it sweeps through most rain teams with ease. Giga Drain was such an amazing addition to Venusaur's movepool, allowing it now to defeat non-Thunder Wave Blissey/Chansey while the sunlight is up while also making it much more difficult to revenge kill. Quite often most people are forced to switch their Tyranitar/Politoed into Venusaur, otherwise it will kill something with its amazing coverage and boosted speed. Chandelure also makes for an amazing revenge killer while sun is up, the boost to Fire Blast helps it revenge so much more (Conkeldurr, for example). It also traps and removes weakened politoed, which is pretty awesome. Volcarona..well, I'm sure Sir has hyped it enough xD. Honestly, the most amazing thing about sun seems to be the fact that most teams aren't really prepared for it. They either get raped up the ass by either sdken or Venusaur, or Chandelure ends up trapping half their team.

    Oh, and before I post this: does anyone else have quite a bit of trouble with Deoxys-S? I can't spin the hazard sets because they usually carry hp fire now, while offensive sets outspeed everything bar Venusaur and smash stuff with lo boosted psycho boosts. It becomes even more of a problem when they also use a weather inducer, so I can't just sac Ninetales and revenge -2 Deo-s with Chandelure x___x.
  21. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    You know what's more impressive? +2 LO Flare Blitz in the sun vs 0/0 Giratina-O: 81.63% - 95.92%

    Yeah, get that shit out.
  22. Omicron

    Omicron
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    To be completely honest, I think Blaziken's most dangerous attribute is its ability to Baton Pass any boosts it has obtained. That makes it extremely unpredictable, and also a huge boon to Baton Pass teams. I've said it many times on IRC, but Blaziken is a driving force in the Dream World metagame, and may even be too powerful. I would probably ban it in a heartbeat...

    As for the argument that Sun will suffer without Blaziken, this is entirely false. Sun still has ridiculously powerful sweepers such as Venusaur, Chandelure, and Volcarona, all of which are potent threats in their own right. I've managed just fine without Blaziken on my sun teams, making it up to and past the 1400 range, meaning that having Blaziken on a Sun team is completely unnecessary.
  23. ala

    ala
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    I think another big benefit to using Blaziken on those sun teams is that a lot of those pokemon (Venusaur, Chandelure, Volc, any other Chlorosweepers) really appreciate any speed boosts that Blaziken can pass along. This can be a huge benefit for the Chlorosweepers who can maintain a huge amount of speed even if the Sun isn't up. This can be a game changing difference seeing as those sweepers lose a lot of their intimidation when their speed is reduced to normal.
  24. Lemonade.

    Lemonade. formerly V0x
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    In my experience LO Deo-S is not that common--I don't know if that means I've been lucky or you've been unlucky, but it is annoying when I do face it. Though tbh Ninetales doesn't do much against non-weather teams aside from set up sun (maybe I'm not using it right: I've got a Sunny Day variant and it really only throws around a few WoW misses <_>) so I just Flamethrower Deo-S and hopefully it dies. Against weather I don't lead with Ninetales so it vs Deo-S isn't that common.

    Spinning-wise I don't have much problem with Starmie since the standard Deo-S can't do much against it--Starmie spins well but that's kinda it. It can't use its Water STAB and always lacks something. ~segue~ Spinners on sun teams. What do you guys use? Forry and Donphan provide hazards too, but I never liked them as spinners since they can't do much to blockers and whatnot.
  25. Tobes

    Tobes 「Cheezum」「Cripes」
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    Bumping this to discuss some comboes I've been trying on a sun team.

    Venusaur has been the heavyweight of my team. It's ridiculous how relatively easy it is for it to sweep if you can ensure sun stays up. I've been using a standard set of Giga Drain / HP Fire / Growth / Sleep Powder and it's been working wonders. It's amazing how quickly a game can turn around when Venusaur comes in. All it needs to do is get off a Sleep Powder successfully, use Growth, and start annihilating everything with Giga Drain while making itself more and more difficult to revenge kill. Outspeeding even Deoxys-S in the sun is a huge boon as well. It does face issues with Dragon-types other than Garchomp, but for that reason I paired it with Choice Scarf Chandelure, who can dispose of things like Latios and Dragonite quite easily.

    On the topic of Chandelure, I've been experimenting with double-trapping, and I'm pretty pleased with the results. My secondary trapper, alongside a standard Choice Scarf Chandelure, is this Dugtrio set.

    Dugtrio @ Liechi Berry
    Arena Trap
    Jolly 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    HP IV: 21
    - Earthquake
    - Reversal
    - Substitute
    - Stealth Rock

    Liechi is everything I could have hoped for. It ensures that Dugtrio is not completely wortheless as a trapper should my opponent get Stealth Rock up, and allows Dugtrio to pose a bit of a threat after it has used Reversal, something Fight Gem doesn't really allow. If my opponent is using bulky Politoed I'll often use this first against them, brining Dugtrio down to 1 HP and then nailing them with a +1 full power Reversal for about 70 - 80%. This makes Politoed easy pickings for Choice Scarf Chandelure afterwards. It's best to use Dugtrio first, since if you sacrifice Chandelure to get off an Energy Ball first Politoed is going to recover 25% of its health during the process of Dugtrio setting up Substitutes.

    Dugtrio also pairs nicely with Chandelure in that Chandelure is often massive Tyranitar bait. The opponent has to think a bit about whether or not they really want to Pursuit Chandelure now, as doing so allows Dugtrio to come in for free and safely remove Tyranitar, opening the opponent up for the likes of a Venusaur sweep.

    Double-trapping is not flawless, though. Alongside Ninetales (and Venusaur, who is dependent on sun), you have little defensive backbone, forcing you to put the rest of the weight on two members of your team when sun isn't up. This can be extremely difficult to do, as you still need something that can tangle with LO Excadrill (such as Skarmory) or you'll lose a Pokemon each time Excadrill comes in with sand up. Voltturn is also an issue when running Rotom-W, as Dugtrio can't safely switch into it and going into Venusaur is just asking for Genesect to come in and keep the chain of abuse going, etc. Basically double-trapping is an all-or-nothing strategy. You need to put your entire focus on setting up favorable offensive conditions for yourself and then move from there. Any time you're placed on the defensive is extremely unfavorable, because such a team simply doesn't have enough backbone to take constant abuse. You also need to be extremely wary of Ditto. However, when it does manage to take control of the match, this sort of team can be very difficult to stop.

    Perhaps Sun Hyper Offense might be worth looking into. At the moment I'm considering things such as mixed sweeper Deoxys-S with Hidden Power Fire, Choice Scarf Victini, etc. Do any of you have suggestions they'd like to discuss?

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