Future Pokemon Suspects.

[Hipmonlee]

Also I recommend making a new topic specifically to discuss ho-oh.

Have a nice day.

 

[lilyhollow]

That's nice, but what's the solid theorymon evidence that Ho-oh will do fine in OU before we waste a month on this process?

Why is it that you're suddenly bringing this up when just a handful of posts ago you were talking about Stealth Rock? My beef was with your irrelevant arguments, not necessarily with the notion of removing Ho-oh's Suspect status. Honestly, I'm not even that strong a proponent of a Ho-oh Suspect test, nor could I give you any particularly convincing evidence that it "deserves" testing; I'm just looking at the fact that someone of relevance certainly thinks or thought that Ho-oh is a Suspect, be that Jumpman or Aeolus or whoever, and I have to believe that they based it on some of the "evidence" you're now demanding months later.

If anyone needs to be providing evidence, it's you, but I'm not even talking "Extensive Advanced Ho-oh Theorymon Analysis" evidence; just something that suggests a change in our knowledge, or in the metagame, that makes the conclusion we earlier arrived to either wrong or outdated. That's pretty much what happened with Mew, and I don't think it should be too difficult to do now without mentioning things that frankly make no sense like "but there's only one reason to test it!"

 

[Tangerine]

Why is it that you're suddenly bringing this up when just a handful of posts ago you were talking about Stealth Rock? My beef was with your irrelevant arguments, not necessarily with the notion of removing Ho-oh's Suspect status. Honestly, I'm not even that strong a proponent of a Ho-oh Suspect test, nor could I give you any particularly convincing evidence that it "deserves" testing; I'm just looking at the fact that someone of relevance certainly thinks or thought that Ho-oh is a Suspect, be that Jumpman or Aeolus or whoever, and I have to believe that they based it on some of the "evidence" you're now demanding months later.

If anyone needs to be providing evidence, it's you, but I'm not even talking "Extensive Advanced Ho-oh Theorymon Analysis" evidence; just something that suggests a change in our knowledge, or in the metagame, that makes the conclusion we earlier arrived to either wrong or outdated. That's pretty much what happened with Mew, and I don't think it should be too difficult to do now without mentioning things that frankly make no sense like "but there's only one reason to test it!"

Yeah, the bolded part is where I disagree with you. I'm questioning what evidence Aeolus used to determine Ho-oh was a suspect. I brought up SR because that's the only argument people had for testing Ho oh in OU in that entire Ho oh thread that was determined a shitfest

 

[lilyhollow]

They're not citing "Stealth Rock" as an actual argument, they're saying "Ho-oh is a lot less effective in a metagame where Stealth Rock is prevalent." But whatever that doesn't matter, this argument has obviously run it's course and I'm just glad we're talking about something that matters now. I personally am not bothered by choosing a suspect based on "no evidence" but obviously given a time constraint I could definitely see Ho-oh being removed from the list of Suspects, or at least given the same treatment as was planned for Soul Dew Latias ("if it becomes obviously broken during the test, we'll cut things short").

 

[kd24]

ok so i dunno if this thread died or not for the time being and i dont know the plans for shaymin-s (some people say its the next suspect while others say we deal with it again later in stage 3) but RB-Golbat and I agree that shaymin-s should be retested probably next before deoxys-d or ho-oh who are probably "blantant uber" (or at least more uber than shaymin-s, probably), mainly because of how lax the requirements were to vote.

many people who didnt have pretty much any experience other than being haxed a couple of times with shaymin were able to vote (i myself was allowed to vote although i rarely even used shaymin-s as much as i would have liked because i had taken a haitus and a break from ou) and i think it would be best to just redo this and make the voting and playing restrictions like those of the latis and recently manaphy, a suspect ladder with paragraphs needed.

im posting this here on behalf of rbg and to see how us in pr think, but to me, its obvious that shaymin-s should be redone as soon as possible. im not gonna pick any names out but some of the voters voted ubers for the entirely wrong reason; with little experience with the actual suspect they recalled shaymin-s haxing them to death or didnt even experiment with many shaymin counters as they might have already reached the neccesary requirements after a few games a week

also, that last paragraph was my opinion, rbgs is:

<@RB-Golbat> you should say that the only reason i support doing it over is because the requirements for voting were so lax

also RBG and i dont mean to say we want shaymin-s moved to ou thats not we are saying at all lol, i originally voted uber anyway, we just think it needs to be retested with strong voting requirements

 

[lilyhollow]

What's wrong with waiting until Stage 3, though? And I mean that literally, as in, what are you expecting to go wrong here that makes a retest so urgent? Time restraints are already forcing a lot of us to reconsider Deoxys-D/Ho-oh tests and whatnot, so I definitely question the value of another Skymin test, as "deserving" as it is.

 

[RBG]

Ummmmm, its not time that is making is reconsider Ho-oh. It is that without stealth rock, you can't beat it, which is the definition of over centralizing.

The fact is, a mistake was acknowledged in setting the criteria for the Shaymin-s test, and if we are willing to acknowledge this fact, why should we wait for stage 3 to retest it? Not to be critical to jump or aeolus, but between the only one ladder and the requirements, the two most important parts were wrong, which could easily be fixed with a do over.

 

[Veedrock]

The results for a Shaymin-S test will only vary from before based on the voter pool; we already know how it works. I see no reason to redo Shaymin-S at all. I'd say there's more precedent to test Garchomp than Shaymin-S because he's banned based on a competitive environment distinct from the current one, while the Shaymin-S result is present (I am in NO way advocating a Garchomp test).

Since I'm posting, I'd like to skip straight to clauses.

 

[lilyhollow]

@RB

So if we had an infinite amount of time to set aside for 4th gen Pokemon tests, you'd still be against making Ho-oh a Suspect? Alright I guess, I'm pretty sure most people would be fine with testing virtually anything in that kind of ideal scenario, but whatever. My point is that the possibility that we'll learn something meaningful by testing Ho-oh, a Pokemon that has essentially gone untouched in the OU metagame, is probably a lot greater than it is for a Skymin test, considering that we already have experience with that Pokemon, probably came to pretty solid consensus on it (though obviously the vote itself didn't reflect that), and will be testing it again in the future anyway.

 

[RBG]

I posted why I am against Ho-oh testing. It has nothing to do with time. It has to with the fact that the only reason people think that it might be OU is because of stealth rock. Which means you either need a Ho-oh or Stealth Rock on your team. How is that not the definition of centralization? THAT is why I am against Ho-oh.

 

[lilyhollow]

But the underlying argument against any test, regardless of your actual theorymon reasoning, is always "it'd be a waste of time." By arguing the merits of a particular Suspect Test, we're just weighing its possible benefits against the four weeks we'd be using up in the meantime; I don't know if you just happen to disagree with this or what, but either way it seems really important for us to actually know what we stand to *gain* by retesting Skymin, besides "serving Skymin its rightful justice a few months early."

 

[RBG]

No. My arguments have nothing to do with time. They have to do with how likely i think they are at becoming OU. I honestly do not think Ho-oh has any chance of becoming OU. That is why I think we shouldn't need to test it, as well as the fact that only one other person has supported the Ho-oh test besides you and everyone else has opposed it based on its abilities, not because of it "saving time"

 

[lilyhollow]

You're misunderstanding me, but more importantly you're not really addressing Skymin itself anymore, so instead of continuing to explain myself I'll just ask you to explain the practical benefits behind a Skymin retest?

 

[RBG]

The reason I feel a Shaymin-s re-test should be done is ONLY because the testing process as a whole was not done correctly for shaymin-s

1) Rating System was different for that test - Unlike the other tests, this one was played ONLY on a ladder where you already had a rating from the beginning of test. This caused many people to be eligible before the test even started or to not use an account for 2 weeks and still have it eligible.

2) In that metagame, we had not played on one without Shaymin-s - Since Plat came out, many changes were added to the metagame. Shaymin-s was added to OU at the same time. Ever since its induction and the shift that happened from DP to DPP, we had not experienced a metagame without it, so we couldn't see the real effects it had on the metagame.

3) Most people on the ladder were not in the mindset for the suspect test - Look back at the voting thread and see some of the comments. The one that strikes me the most is "People weren't willing to build a team with shaymin-s because they knew it was going to be uber" This type of attitude completely compromised the whole Shaymin-s test imho, and is why we need to retest it.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Remembering the Shaymin-S test, I believe it was a massive clusterfuck that obviously was conducted in an ineffective manner, and provided few people with an incentive to actually use the suspect. The fact that people were allowed to vote that didn't even play at all during the month, never used Shaymin-S, and didn't even bother to try to have an opinion really affected things.

I completely back a retest of Shaymin-S, if only to give it a fair test before Stage 3 rolls around. The Shaymin-S test is more likely to give us useful information than either the DXD or Ho-oh tests are likely to, and it's more likely to actually make it to OU and get a chance in the metagame anyway.

 

[lilyhollow]

I recognize that the Shaymin-S test was flawed, but I don't see how that means we should do it again what with Stage 3 existing largely in order to handle these situations. If "the test was flawed" is your only basis for a retest, I pretty much just agree with everything Veedrock said. Otherwise, if you actually think that forgoing a retest would leave us at some huge deficit in "Skymin knowledge" that has the the power to alter our ultimate decision, even after Stage 3, I'd love to know how.

 

[Earthworm]

I personally don't think Ho-oh would be as difficult to handle as people are making out. Sure it still survives things after it comes in even with Stealth Rock up but that doesn't mean it can come in again. All of the sets it has have reasonable checks as far as I can see, whether they're offensive or defensive. The only set I would really be worried about is probably a Substitute Toxic version but that can be temporarily dealt with by phazing it. I don't know if I am being too specific but I don't think Ho-oh is too powerful. It has common weaknesses for which there are many already used OU Pokemon (Water, Electric, Rock, doesn't deal with status well) and actually helps check some of the most common threats in the current metagame (Scizor, Heatran). It is not as difficult to beat without Stealth Rock as people are making out, but obviously Stealth Rock helps a lot. You might need to use more Rock moves to beat Ho-oh than you normally would but that isn't really a drastic change.

Ho-oh definitely isn't unbeatable without Stealth Rock, there are a reasonable number of checks which deal with it regardless.

I would like Ho-oh to be tested.

 

[gengod]

I disagree with Ho-oh being tested for a number of reasons, most of them already mentioned in this thread. I believe DxS-D should be the last "suspect" tested and that Shaymin-S does not need a retest as it would just be a waste of time with stage 3 looming around the corner anyway.