1. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!

G/S/C In-Game Tier List

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by LegitLolz, Dec 17, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Yeah, but if you get the level 40 Larvitar straight away in Kanto, you'll have Tyranitar at some point (unless you really plan on fighting Red with a team of under Level 55). IMO Tyranitar is better than Graveler....also in the RBY thread we didnt count trades so I guess we dont count Golem.

    But of course, you could use Geodude in Johto, than switch it for Laritvar once you get to Kanto.
  2. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,122
    Cyndaquil's horrible movepool means that it's definitely not top tier material. That place should be reserved for Totodile, who actually gets great coverage early on thanks to Ice Punch, Surf and Bite.
    Cyndaquil is Mid tier at best.

    And Chikorita Mid tier? Are you kidding me? Why is POISON POWDER even mentioned? And it utterly sucks against Red since it can't do anything to half of its team (Venusaur, Charizard and Snorlax).
    There is a reason why Chikorita is considered the worst starter ever.
    It does have decent stats which is the only reason it shouldn't be Bottom tier. Low tier is its rightful placement.
  3. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,494
    cyndaquil mid? uh how? i don't see how a pokemon with essentially 2 free wins against gyms is sticking in mid tier. it's movepool isn't bad: fire is actually good in GSC and thunderpunch helps cyndaquil beat water types.

    there are no reserved nor limited spots in top tier and cyndaquil belongs there imo

    @hemp: larvitar itself costs 178000, and has to deal with graveler being much better for most of its existence due to stab EQ: tyranitar is not getting that until L56 and graveler is already rocking it since L41. not to mention how graveler is mediocre in kanto: it's bad against almost all of the gyms except surge, janine and blaine...
  4. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Yeah Gravler is lame in Kanto, and actually its still pretty bad against Blaine as even Fire attacks hurt a lot.

    The reason why Cyndaquil rocks in-game is because Fire STAB + ThunderPunch is decent enough coverage on its own right, and it comes his better stat. Totodile may get better coverage, but it comes off his lesser stat (and I'd hardly say Bite is useful except for maybe Morty). I mean yeah Totodile is good, but it doesnt exactly outclass Cyndaquil.

    As far as Chikorita Vs Red goes: Um, Meganium BEATS Venusaur. Venusaur can't learn Sludge Bomb in GSC, and it only uses Grass moves - which Meganium resists. Meganium can also beat Blastoise and Pikachu, so it can handle half of Red's team by itself, which is pretty damn impressive.
  5. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    The unique possible use of Larvitar (C) is to battle Red, and even there is not that amazing as you may expect, he can just handle Charizard (but he doesn't like to be fire spinned and burned) and Umbreon (and it will need of the help of some items, because Umbreon will Mud-Slap you to the death). Of course, Larvitar is one of worst Pokémon before Red, worst than Graveler? Graveler is better than him if Larvitar is below level 56, and with a gigant distance, and for that moment, Graveler is not that great, just being of uses to pass easier some trainers and 3 gyms on Kanto, and even then, he's a lot better than Larvitar. Of course, Larvitar will evolve, and will surpass Graveler, but you now, the unique ones with Pokémon over that level are Blue and Red, and we seen already Tyranitar doesn't rocks as hell against Red, so, he'll just be of really help against Blue, and that is.

    Ah, and yeah, you'll also need to stay on the Game Corner for hours of hours to get him, and that's an extra handicap, and he's not even near to evolve (16 levels where almost not exist any trainer with Pokémon over level 50...), and he's also from the Slow Experience group, and needs a TM to have a ground attack prior to the second evolve!

    Totally Buttom Tier.
  6. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Red doesn't have Umbreon, he uses Espeon. And Mud-Slap is a 20 Base Power move coming from a Pokemon with 65 Base Attack, unless you were referring to the accuracy drops...which could be a problem.
  7. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    ^ My bad. And yeah, talking about the accuracy drop and the most probably difference of levels. Tyranitar will need the use of Guard Specs + Maybe a Hyper Potion (if you're having bad luck) to properly overcome Espeon.

    Also, I want to suggest this "little" one:

    [​IMG]

    Onix - Mid Tier
    - Availability:
    Earlier and easy, you can trade one for a Bellsprout on Violet City.

    - Stats: Low avarage. High physical bulky, horrible special bulky, low attack, decent speed.

    - Movepool: Avarage.
    Earlier: Rock Throw, Bind, Screech, Mud Slap (TM)
    Later: Sandstorm, Dig (TM), Curse (TM), Toxic (TM), Iron Tail (TM), Strength (HM), Rock Slide (Breeding)

    And he can learns Earthquake, but you may prefer to use the TM on other Pokémon with better attack.

    - Utility: He's better than Geodude before it evolves, and is somewhat similar to Graveler, except because Onix prefer to deal damage with Bind + Sandstorm and wall the enemy while he's Screeching it for others or himself, too. Also, he can handle and survive to any random Self-Destruct and Explosion, and give you time for revive/heal him's partners on mid battle. He will not sweep any time soon, but he can easy handle a good number of trainers and gyms alone. Also, he's a in-game trade, so, he'll win experience faster and will have better levels with less effort, and if trades are counting, Steelix is just awesome.

    - Match-Ups:

    Falkner: Onix wins alone; may need a Potion if you're missing too much.
    Bugsy: Onix wins alone; may need an Antidote because Kakuna.
    Whitney: Onix wins alone; Cleafairy can be a trouble because Metronome.
    Morty: Can be of help if he knows Dig or Mud-Slap, because he only fears Night Shade and Gengar.
    Chuck: Can use Screech on Primeape and deal some damage, but he can't do nothing against Poliwrath.
    Jasmine: Can handle without trouble the two Magnemites, and Mud-Slap a while her Steelix.
    Pryce: Useless.
    Clair: Can handle the second Dragonair, but is useless against the others two and Dragonite.

    Will: Useless.
    Koga: Useless against Ariados, but wins to Muk, Crobat, and Forretress, and can help against Venomoth.
    Bruno: Can handle Hitmontop and mirror Onix, but is useless against the others.
    Karen: Wins against Umbreon, Murkrow, and Gengar, and have high odds against Houndoom, but is useless against Vileplume.
    Lance: Wins against Aerodactyl, and can handle at some degree Charizard, but is useless against the others.

    Brock: Can mirror him's Onix, otherwise useless.
    Misty: Useless.
    Lt. Surge: Onix wins alone like a god; may need a Hyper Potion for the Explosions.
    Erika: Useless.
    Janine: May need Antidotes and a Hyper Potion, but can handle the gym complete bar Ariados.
    Sabrina: Useless.
    Blaine: Wins against Magcargo, and have high odds against Magmar. Can be of help against Rapidash, but he can't beat him.
    Blue: Wins against Pidgeot, but is useless against the others.

    Red: Wins against Pikachu and Snorlax, and can handle well him's Charizard. Useless against the others.

    Additional Comment: He's great to leave wild Pokémon with almost 1HP, because him's low attack.

    Note: The Match-Ups and Tier are considering he's not evolving, otherwise he's Top Tier.
  8. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,588
    [​IMG]
    Houndour - Mid Tier
    Availability: A bit late, right after you defeated the Champion (Route 7).
    Stats: It has the highest Special Attack among Dark-types after it evolves. Speed is also very good. The Defense is low, but the Sp. Defense is average.
    Movepool: Shallow yet very precise. It comes with two decent STAB attacks in Bite and Ember, and picks up Flamethrower at 41 and Crunch at 52. If you're willing to teach it Sunny Day and Solarbeam it can hit everything in the game for massive damage.
    Power: Impressive. Even if underleveled it still hurts, and once it gets access to its two best STAB attacks it becomes nigh unstoppable.
    Type: Dark/Fire is simply amazing, both offensively and defensively. It comes with key resistances and immunities (most notably Psychic), and it hits everything in the game for massive damage
    Match-ups:
    Lt. Surge: Not very useful here
    Sabrina: Sweeps
    Erika: Sweeps
    Janine: Sweeps, half her team is Fire-weak and the other half lacks the Sp. Defense to endure any attacks
    Misty: Surprisingly enough, if you taught Houndoom Sunny Day and Solarbeam you should be able to sweep her singlehandedly.
    Brock: Same with Misty, although it should be noted that Sunny Day won't shield you against Rock/Ground in the same way it protects you from Water-type attacks
    Blaine: Unlike Blaine's Fire-types, Houndoom actually has a secondary STAB to hit them with, so it should have little problem. Don't let Magcargo scare you, it has a very weak Sp. Defense and an even weaker Attack.
    Blue: Exeggutor and Alakazam are dispatched with ease. If sun is up pre-emptively, you can OHKO Rhydon with Solarbeam as well.
    Red: Espeon may hurt a bit with Mud-slap, but otherwise it should fall with relative ease. Venusaur is easy to kill too, especially if it's kind enough to give you Sunny Day.

    Additional Comments: It comes at a low level (around 20), but as soon as it evolves in Houndoom at level 24 you can immediately start using it in Sabrina's and Erika's gym to quickly level it up.

    EDIT: Nyara, I can see Steelix as High Tier, but Top Tier, seriously? Let's look at the matchups (assuming you evolve him with a Metal Coat from a wild Magnemite in route 39)

    Morty: Sweeps
    Chuck: What can exactly do Steelix against a Primeape and especially a Poliwrath (keep in mind that, most likely, you still don't have Iron Tail yet)
    Jasmine: Without Earthquake what are you going to do? Mud-slap? Sure you may win but it takes quite some time against her own Steelix...
    Pryce: Somewhat of a mixed bag, but if you have Iron Tail you should pull it off
    Clair: One Dragonair has Flamethrower, so it's a no-go. All Dragonairs have Dragon Rage as well (if I recall correctly). And then there's Kingdra... so it's not what I'd call a good match up
    Will: Sweeps, since Slowbro doesn't have any Water-type attack.
    Koga: Sweeps
    Bruno: Your defense may let you take even a Hi Jump Kick or a Cross Chop, but you shouldn't fool around anyway
    Karen: Houndoom fries you, and Umbreon can be extremely annoying, but otherwise you should do this
    Lance: Charizard is a no-go, Gyarados is a no-go, one Dragonite has Blizzard while the lvl 50 one has Fire Blast... so yeah
    Lt. Surge: Sweeps
    Sabrina: Sweeps
    Erika: Should pull this off
    Janine: Sweeps
    Misty: No chance
    Brock: Fares well, but Omastar and Kabutops can hurt him hard
    Blaine: No chance
    Blue: Gyarados and Arcanine are no-go, otherwise you should sweep.
    Red: Blastoise and Charizard kill you, but you should be able to withstand Snorlax and Pikachu. Espeon and Venusaur are risky.

    For a top tier Pokemon this is a far from impressive record. Try to compare it to Abra (who sweeps everything but Karen and Jasmine) or Lapras (who can sweep basically everything but Lt. Surge), and you'll see what I mean. High Tier, definitely. Top Tier, no.
  9. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    Well, if you read well what did you put, you'll see he sweeps more than the 2/3 of the times, and to what it cannot sweep, it still helps with some Pokémon (except with Misty and Blaine). Also, Steelix can resist 1 strong fire attack, so it can put end to at least 1 of those threats before switching. Magnemites are X 4 weaks to Mud Slap, making it a 20 x 4 attack (80 + STAB), so, you'll only take your time against Steelix; not too hard anyway, because he doesn't have way to recover.

    Also, add the total sweep from the first three gyms and the overall userfulness around the game (he can take ANY physical hit like a king, even the figthing ones, and resist a variety of special ones, too). Also, he can destroy the Primeape of Chuck, because it only have Karate Chop, and he'll waste him time with Rage and Fury Swipes, too. But he can't do nothing against Polywrath.

    Take also in account he's an In-Game-Trade, so, he'll win 1.5x of experience, thus, with the same training, he'll have more levels than the others, making it's life easier against it's usual checks. He doesn't ever need to be grinded because he'll win a lot of experience defeating Falkner alone, even Abra needs some of grind before being of use.

    For example Cyndaquil doesn't have perfect Match-Ups everywhere, but it's general usefulness and stuff is what makes him top.

    Edit: Oh, yeah, Steelix can learn Dig via TM, too, so, if the problem with Mud-Slaping for 10-20 turns is a trouble on some gyms, you can just change it for Dig, Steelix is a good user, and there're not too much more Pokémon who could put it to good use. Onix without evolve is an excelent user, too, because it allows him to stall more toxic/sandstorm/bind damage, deal more normal damage, and well, you can say goodbye to the Escape Ropes. Also, you can evade some explosions in that way and waste less on healing items.
  10. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    483
    About Houndour, I think almost of all Kanto exclusive mons deserve to be Low, because that poor availability, low levels in the wild(around 15, so they have to be grinded a lot), and, why only grind them when Kanto's Gym Leaders are so easy and the rest of trainers, bar Red are laughable?

    The only exceptions are Lugia in Gold and Crystal and Ho-oh in Silver. Level 70 and being powerhouses...(their items for catching them are in Pewter City)

    However, Larvitar at level 40 in Crystal, lol I have never noticed that Larvitar was at that high level(GF got crazy giving a 40 level mon on the Game Corner or trying to make Larvitar somewhat useful in things like this). Needs testing, but I expect to not be much useful, when reaches Tyranitar, it's likely to already have the 16 badges..


    Cyndaquil is fairly good early game, envolves early, but suffers a lot during Mid Game, no special attacks except Ember until lv 31 with Flame Wheel, late evolution(it envolves around 8th Gym, when can learn ThunderPunch)

    Well, it has great matchup against Bugsy and Jasmine, but not much against Pryce because it has a Seel and a Dewgong(and remember, Quilava is likely to only have Ember and maybe Flame Wheel as STAB) because the awful movepool of Pryce mons, only Dewgong is a threat with Headbutt lol(or flinch with Icy Wind+Headbutt or eternal PP boring stall with Rest) (At least abilities didn't existed yet, Seel and Dewgong with Thick Fat...)
  11. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    I think Houndour is an odly, but good exception to the rule of the "Kanto exclusive mons deserve to be Low", just because he can help and sweep on 4-5 of the Kanto Gyms, and you'll maybe need it if you're having troubles with the Psychic Pokémon, the fact that he's underlevel, but at 4 levels to evolve give him's a chance to being of help, of course, all thanks to it's typing. All the others deserve buttom or low. Houndoom have a lot better BST, type, and moves than Purpitar, so, it makes a huge difference between buttom and mid.
  12. Zacharias

    Zacharias

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    13
    Pikachu for Bottom.

    [​IMG]
    Pikachu - Bottom Tier
    Availability: Horrid. In GS, he's found only on Route 2. In Crystal, however, not only is he found on Route 2, but also at the Celadon Game Corner. Better, but still really bad.
    Stats: Decent speed, everything else is blow average.
    Movepool: Above average. Other than Electric and Normal attacks, he can also make use of some TMs such as Rollout or DynamicPunch, but it's not recommended.
    Type: Pure Electric. Weak to ground, resisits itself and Flying, but Pikachu will crumple under any decently powered STAB move anyway.
    Power: Base 50 Atk and Base 55 Sp. Atk isn't going to get him very far, unless you trade him from Yellow and let him keep the Light Ball, which is unlikely.
    Match-ups: Without a copious amount of grinding, Pikachu won't be contibuting anything significant in any major battles after you catch him.
    Additional Comments: You could snag a Thunder Stone and evolve him, but GSC made it very hard to get your hands on one.
  13. Mekkah

    Mekkah OH yum-my sau-ces
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    13,973
    Houndour is way, way, way too underleveled to do much of anything. Maybe if GSC had efficient grinding spots or methods like the BW series, but it just takes so much time to get Houndour anywhere.

    Can this logic just be banned or something? It doesn't matter much in Larvitar's case because he is bad either way but how often do I have to explain that Pokemon should be judged based on their own merits?
  14. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    re Cyndaquil:

    Thunderpunch can't be learnt until lv. 36 when you evolve until Typhlosion. The same applies to Fire Punch (while folks like Abra and Nidoking can learn it without any waiting as soon as you're in Goldenrod; okay you don't have Nidoking as soon as you're in Goldenrod but you get what I mean). Quilava learns Flame Wheel @ lv. 31, and until then its only STAB has a BP of 40. Again, top tier? Don't think so.

    You're right when you say you're not losing the game by choosing Cyndaquil, but then you should move like 20 more Pokemon to Top Tier because you're not losing the game with them either, and many of them don't have a lackluster period whereas Cyndaquil's is a long one (gradual degradation after Ember is learnt all the way until lv. 31 when it gets a little better). Typhlosion is "da man" when it's fully evolved indeed, but its typing is useless for Clair, and not terribly helpful in the E4 either (useful for Koga? Yeah, we're having trouble with that Ariados and Venomoth without Typhlosion I'm sure).

    Down to Mid/High, no mercy.

    Also, how is Onix better than Geodude before either evolves? Rock Throw off 45 base attack or Rock Throw off 80 base attack, which one do you choose? You either drop Onix after Bugsy or grinding for a 3% Metal Coat on wild Magnemites. Neither is a particularly efficient way to play the game. Steelix is a monster, I give you that, and far better at taking hits than Graveler, but you need quite a bit of luck to evolve your Onix until Kanto. Also requires trading, much like Gastly.

    I also think Lapras in Top feels wrong. Let's say I've just beaten Morty and I can now surf around the map freely. Do I wait a week so that I can catch this fabulous Top Tier monster (which it is if we forget its availability complications, really), or do I proceed with the game (because I probably feel like playing it at that moment)? Just sounds very situational. I also think the frequency with which Thunder is mentioned in the analysis is unrealistic. Don't you have better things to spend your money on? And assuming you do get it, when does it help you? Lance's Gyarados? That's about it. "can beat most Water-types one on one" sounds perfectly sound until you try to think which water-types exactly you'll be facing. Poliwrath? I'd keep Lapras away from his Dynamicpunch. Ice Beam handles fliers better, anyway.
  15. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Thyplosion is actually really good against Will. Flame Wheel hits Exeggutor & Jynx while ThunderPunch hits Xatu and Slowbro (who doesn't have any Water STAB moves).

    Against Koga it an take out Ariados, Foretress, and Venomoth easily.

    Bruno its not too great against, especially considering Hitmontop, Onix, and Machamp carry Dig, Earthquake, and Rock Slide respectively.

    Karen it can take out Vileplume and Murkrow easily, but that is it.

    Lance it doesn't too well against the Dragons but ThunderPunch is SE against the other 3 members. Charizard goes down easily, Gyarados is 2HKO (watch out for Surf!), but Aerodactyl outspeeds you and Rock Slides you to death.
  16. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,588
    I can personally attest that Houndour needs nowhere the same kind of grinding required for the other Pokemon in Kanto. As soon as it hits level 24 and it evolves (4 levels after you catch it) it can already battle trainers from Grass, Psychic, and Poison gyms as well as a myriad of trainers all over the region. It only takes mid 30 to be able to dispatch the gyms on his own. By then, it should be well over 40 and on par with the rest of the team. I always picked Houndour on my GSC runs and never regretted it. In a certain way, it is available right when you need it the most, and it is barely powerful enough to need hardly any grinding at all.
  17. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    Onix have almost the double of bulk than Geodude, so, yes, Onix is better than him, the unique diference is you'll need somewhat of your time against some Pokémon while Geodude just beat team faster, but hey, the first post don't tell this's a tier list for Speedruns, so, you can take some turns, and more when on G/S/C the time in battles pass a lot faster. And factor this with the fact that Onix is a In-Game-Trade, so, you'll need to use him on battle an 0.75 less of times, no gridding needed. And if you see, Onix have relative good match-ups along all the game, and he can take explosions like a king, and in fact, is an excelent partner of Abra, who can't take physical hits (and is outspeeded by some Electric Pokémon, like Voltorbs/Electrodes), while Onix doesn't fear anything from the physical side and electric Pokémon, except at some degree Fighthing, but even then he can with them. We could say the same of Geodude, but Onix have an important better physical bulk to being able to take anything, while Geodude just can't take too many hits, nor is able to resist something superefective from the physical side at all.

    Yeah, you'll not sweep with Onix any time soon, but he can handle like I said before, a huge amount of trainers and gyms, and he doesn't ever need grind or something to do that. And even if you prefer to train other Pokémon more, Onix deals a huge help using Sandstorm + Screech + Mud-Slap, making almost useless a problematic Pokémon or leaving it at the K.O range of your sweepers. Also, the high defense but low HP of Onix will make your money bag happier because he'll need a lot less of recovery items than Geodude. As a plus, Onix can leave with almost 1 HP a huge number of wild Pokémon, making him almost as good at it than the False Swipe users.

    Steelix (High/Top) >> Golem (High) >> Graveler (Mid) > Onix (Mid) >> Geodude (Mid because Graveler)
  18. LegitLolz

    LegitLolz

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    I can't stress enough that if you have a problem with the placement of a pokemon, make a new entry for it. Whether the new entry has more merit or not will determine whether it is accepted.

    Aside from that, can we keep the debate to a minimum. You can each submit an entry. The best will be placed on the list. Others will be left alone.

    Also we need a good number of other Pokemon done. So, if you have a bit of extra time, could you pick a random pokemon that either needs to be fixed, or isn't up yet, and throw up an entry? Thanks.
  19. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    And who determine what entry is the best? (Of course, the referers, but I don't think they completed the game more than 20 times and used each Pokémon on each run) That's why people talk, I think. Anyway, there's no hurry to complete the tier.
  20. Jellicent

    Jellicent Ambien Trance
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,085
    Redew was on LoA, but he's back as of today and still working on this. Please refer to this thread.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)