Gallade (Bulk Up)

[Hatman]

Taking all criticism, good or bad. This is my first try at getting a set "Smogon approved," so I need all the help I can get.

[SET]
name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Drain Punch
move 3: Psycho Cut
move 4: Shadow Sneak / Leaf Blade / Fire Punch
evs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 20 Def / 176 SpD
nature: Adamant / Careful
ability: Steadfast
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set is unlike others, and takes on more of a stalling approach. It can also take Priority moves much easier than it's other sets. When you switch into Gallade, you want to force a switch, making the opponent think you are using an offensive set. Bulk Up should be used in this free turn. Then get in at least one more Bulk Up, boosting defense up to 342 and attack up to 662. Now, you'll want to sort of start sweeping.</p>

<p>The first move is self-explanatory; Bulk Up is used to raise attack and defense. Drain Punch is the real life and blood of this set, as the only real option for recovery, and Psycho Cut for a great STAB move. The last move is dependent on what the rest of your team needs. Shadow Sneak is to priority kill ghosts, mainly, Gengar and rotom forms, who are common switch ins. Leaf Blade is to get rid of Swampert, Hippowdon, and bulky waters. Fire Punch is mainly for Scizor and Forretress who easily cause problems for this set otherwise.</p>

<p>You want to have decent SpD EVs on this set, since you have no way of boosting that. The 252 HP is for defensive purposes, the defense EVs are for a bit extra bulk, and the attack is for a bit more power.</p>

<p>This set works well with Entry Hazards, because for people who don't have a good counter will usually keep switching around. Because this is a defensive set, you lose the ability to handle defensive walls as efficiently, so be prepared to have a good Skarmory or Togekiss counter. </p>

<p>Good partners for this set are wall breakers, such as Infernape. Also, as said before, paralysis support is always great too. Another option for this set is Wish, but it is highly unrecommended. </p>

 

[Losa]

This should go to the Quality Control forum.

When I tested a set similar to this I found Low Kick as a decent alternative to Brick Break/whatever. However Gallade really doesn't have the staying power to consistently get two Bulk Ups and before that it just lacks the power.

 

[deluge]

How does it get Wish?

 

[Towelie]

Gallade doesnt get wish -________-

 

[Zystral]

Yes it does.
RSE Event Ralts has Wish and can be transferred. Check your databases next time before saying something doesn't learn something.

That said, this isn't the set's biggest problem - rather, it's the fact that Gallade is too slow to effectively sweep anywhere without a Scarf that isn't late-game. Bulk Up and Wish are all very well for boosting longevity and shit, but considering that a lot of strong, STAB neutral attacks are 2HKOing you before you can set up just makes it not worth it.

The Swords Dance set has immediate power and better coverage, and Gallade's bulk isn't even good enough to take advantage of that +1 Def raise, so it's essentially a wasted turn.
I cannot think of any situation where I would rather have Bulk Up. You don't even have Max Speed making this Gallade easier to kill. There is a reason that fully defensive things like Suicune works on sets like these and that's because they ahve the natural bulk to pull it off without stupid investment. Gallade has Base 68 HP and 60 Def - that's weaker than Lucario. Gallade also has a significantly worse typing, with less resists.

You talk about maximising SpDef and getting 2 Bulk Ups makes your Def 400 points but the fact of the matter is, no matter what happens, they are KOing you way too soon for you to do anything noticable. I'm almost certain stuff like Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball and Scarf Heracross Megahorn is 2HKOing you anyway, so even if you Wish on the switch they'll still take you down.

You could prove me wrong and post calcs of this Gallade at +0 and +1 against some threats, but I just don't see somethingas frail as Gallade pulling off such an unreliable set.

 

[panamaxis]

hmm, I'd probably rather run a SD set, just for the reliability, I'm a bit iffy on this...
I'm not sure, would it be possible to get some (non-cherry picked) logs of it in action?

 

[firecape]

I recently did an update on Gallade, and I mentioned Bulk Up in Other Options, where I think it should stay. Gallade has a hard enough time setting up its first Swords Dance, not to mention multiple Bulk Ups, and the thing that makes most Fighting-types so powerful is that STAB Close Combat, which this set can't use (Low Kick has 120 BP on some Pokemon, but it isn't as reliable, because things like Vaporeon laugh at it). Also, for future reference, the <p> and </p> tags go at the begining and end of a paragraph respectively. Other then that, this is a pretty polished first attempt.

 

[TAY]

Moved to QC.

The most successfull Bulk Up Gallade set I have seen is the Drain Punch one. It has better coverage, similar damage output, and comparable recovery. Frankly I would like to see that one be the main bulk up set; the extra coverage is extremely important since you have options like thunderpunch, stone edge, taunt, etc.

Assuming you want to keep this set though, Low Kick is almost exclusively better than brick break here. I can't think of anything that BB does more damage on that you wouldn't just psycho cut anyway....

 

[Despotar]

To me, this seems like a worse SD Gallade. It's awful defense's are still just that after a boost; awful.
I would add Drain punch as a / too Wish, as well.

 

[Hatman]

Wow, how did I even forget about Drain Punch... *fixes*

And thanks for all of the replies, I didn't think that this would get many.

 

[mtr]

Gallade won't have time to take advantage of Wish, it's better off being replaced by a coverage move. I don't know exactly how successful this set is, but according to TAY it has potential, so go for it.

 

[Bologo]

Sorry to tell you, but your current EV spread is horrible.

252 HP / 60 Atk / 20 Def / 176 SpD with an Adamant nature not only takes hits exactly the same as your spread, but it has a lot more Attack on it (or you can take off the Attack and put it somewhere else and it'd still be higher than your spread thanks to the Adamant nature). You can always take off the Adamant nature and change it back to Careful, depending on whether you want to put the newfound EVs from this set into more bulk or keep the extra punch.

Just to prove my point:

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. your spread = 58.8% - 70.6%
" " vs. new spread = 58.8% - 69.4%

BulkyGyara Waterfall (72 EVs) vs. your spread = 49.8% - 59.2%
" " vs. new spread = 49.7% - 58.5%

Basically, it's a rule of thumb that if you're trying to make a bulky EV spread for something with a low base HP, you need to max out HP first instead of dumping EVs into the defenses. The HP will not only raise their bulk by a lot, but it'll also help the pokemon take hits from both sides better. The only time to make this exception is when you need that pokemon to take a specific hit from something; ie. Uber Trapper Scizor, who needs to take Dragon Pulses from stuff like Latias, and does that best with the EV spread it has.

 

[Hatman]

wow, that's amazing. Thank you much for the calculations. *fixes*

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

BU has the same issue on Gallade as it does on Breloom- It doesn't take hits "better" enough to warrant being a slower offensive setup than Swords Dance. Wish without Protect is iffy for recovery, and Drain Punch has terrible power and only 8 PP, making it run out fast when used on a regular basis.

Generally unless your defenses are awesome, Swords Dance is better than Bulk Up just like Nasty Plot is "better" than Calm Mind in the vast majority of situations. This gets a no from me.

 

[alex 67]

Heracross definitely doesn't have "Awesome" defense either but it gets a bulk up set. Anyway the biggest issue I see with this is that there is poor coverage. Your primary options don't even hit every type neutrally. Bulky psychics such as Cresselia wall this set for eternity.

 

[ck49]

Im not sure what to think of this. In theory, it looks good, but I'm not sure how practical it actually is. As Alex said, cress and uxie are good counters, so you may want to add tyranitar or another bulky pursuiter (metagross, scizor) as a team mate.

 

[SJCrew]

BU has the same issue on Gallade as it does on Breloom- It doesn't take hits "better" enough to warrant being a slower offensive setup than Swords Dance.

Breloom's problem is that its typing is worse and so are its stats. All the Bulk Ups in the world aren't getting you past Celebi, Zapdos, Heatran, and Infernape, who all love to prey on its 60 base Sp. Def.

Gallade, however, trumps them all. The idea is to either come in on weaker special attackers or something that doesn't like taking Fighting attacks, force them out, and use Bulk Up. Depending on what comes in, you can either keep bulking up or respond with the appropriate move and outdamage/stall them by alternating between Bulk Up and Drain Punch. What makes this such an effective set for Gallade is that it has all the right stats for this and none of the common weaknesses that keep other potential Bulk Up abusers from doing this well.

The biggest problem this set encounters is usually with phazers and Scizor, and Gengar. Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Swampert will Roar you right off the bat and keep doing it because you don't have enough power to take them out. Even with one or two Bulk Ups, Scizor will have no problem 2HKOing with Bullet Punch you while you fail to do the same. Obviously, Gengar is always going to be dealing absurd damage with Shadow Ball, so if you don't have Shadow Sneak, a switch would be in order.

Now I know what you're thinking: SD KOs all of those walls, so why not run that? A few things:

- Unlike SD, it's easier for this set to switch in and you can maintain decent health for most of the match by Bulking Up, using Drain Punch, and outlasting walls/utility Pokemon that can't phaze you.

- It's harder to revenge. Once you have a couple of Bulk Ups under your belt, sweepers won't be able to come in and pick you off, like Flygon with EQ, Lucario with Espeed, or even Starmie with Surf/Hydro Pump.

You can usually tank your way through two or three Pokemon before this guy finally goes down, at which point it's probably pulling more weight than the rest of the team. It could be a real gamebreaker if you've built your team well enough to take advantage of the opening (a real problem I've had in the past, actually).

As for the OP, I would remove Wish, make Drain Punch mandatory, and add Shadow Sneak in one of the Slashes. Here's how I'm thinking it should look:

name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Drain Punch
move 3: Psycho Cut
move 4: Shadow Sneak/Leaf Blade/Fire Punch

Drain Punch is the life and blood of this set, so it needs to be there at all times. Psycho Cut deals enough damage to Flying types without needing Stone Edge and has 100% accuracy to boot. In the fourth slot, you're primarily going to want Shadow Sneak to get the jump on Gengar and Scarf Rotom. As an added bonus, it bails you out should you fail to KO a sweeper right away and can't afford to take another hit (this is a very common occurrence when using sweepers with Bulk Up/CM).

Fire Punch is for Scizor and Forretress, who will either set up on you (Forry) or outdamage you (Scizor), and Leaf Blade is for dealing more damage to Suicune, Swampert and Hippowdon. Swampert is easily the most common one of the three, so having a way to take it out will prove to be valuable, if nothing else.

Im not sure what to think of this. In theory, it looks good, but I'm not sure how practical it actually is.

Then test the set out for yourself. I've seen a few good sets not make it past QC because of a few theorymon issues that could have been absolved by actually testing the set. I've had plenty of experience with this set and can tell you all about the ups and downs of using it. It's unique, very effective, and only a couple of other OUs can do this anywhere near as well, and with their own set of drawbacks to boot. It definitely deserves a spot on the main site.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Even with one or two Bulk Ups, Scizor will have no problem 2HKOing with Bullet Punch you while you fail to do the same.

Well, BP only does 48% average at +1, so that's not bad. Considering that you'll heal with Drain Punch and lefties, it's probably not a 2HKO.

I'd say one advantage that Gallade has over other BU users is that it's not weak to common physical attacks (Close Combat, Earthquake, Stone Edge). While it's defense is far from stellar, even after a boost, at least it can't be hit SE like other BU users.

 

[RaikouLover]

The problem is why would you use this set over a standard Swords Dance Gallade. That is what you have to convince QC. Other Bulk Uppers are Machamp and Heracross. Their cases are different because Machamp lacks Swords Dance and gets the amazing Dynamicpunch to buy it a bulk up, and Heracross gets great base power moves and type coverage (Megahorn hello!) to actually hurt things after a Bulk Up and still maintain its Bulk. Gallade has to rely on Drain Punch and Psycho Cut, two very underpowered moves. So not only is Swords Dance giving you a +2 instead of +1, it also is using things like Close Combat / Stone Edge / Ice Punch which are all more powerful than those two moves (even Stone Edge is more powerful than Drain Punch!)

 

[Hatman]

Well ofcourse Stone Edge is more powerful than Drain Punch, SE has double the power without factoring in the STAB. Thats why DP has the added fun of recovery. If we has a 120 power recovery move out there, we would all die. The reason to use this over SD was excellently stated by SJ crew (thank you :D).

And another reason is becaus eof only two weaknesses, Flying and Ghost, and Ghost is the only one actually used.

 

[SJCrew]

The problem is why would you use this set over a standard Swords Dance Gallade. That is what you have to convince QC. Other Bulk Uppers are Machamp and Heracross. Their cases are different because Machamp lacks Swords Dance and gets the amazing Dynamicpunch to buy it a bulk up, and Heracross gets great base power moves and type coverage (Megahorn hello!) to actually hurt things after a Bulk Up and still maintain its Bulk. Gallade has to rely on Drain Punch and Psycho Cut, two very underpowered moves. So not only is Swords Dance giving you a +2 instead of +1, it also is using things like Close Combat / Stone Edge / Ice Punch which are all more powerful than those two moves (even Stone Edge is more powerful than Drain Punch!)

The SD sweeper doesn't have nearly as much longevity or switch-in opportunities, which is important for Gallade because it's not very fast and it doesn't have good priority like Extremespeed to really run through teams. You can probably get through a stall team without much issues, but with the SD set, it's incredibly easy to prey on its lack of speed and bulk with something faster and outright KO it.

The Bulk Up set has more of a wall-like function in that the speed matters less and you can get by on its bulk and outlasting whatever tries to stop you by boosting and Drain Punching the shit out of everything. The only flyer that even poses a significant threat to it is Togekiss, since it actually uses STAB Flying, so you'll be forced out on that one in any case.

If the QC guys need logs for proof, I can probably go and do that right now...

Well, BP only does 48% average at +1, so that's not bad. Considering that you'll heal with Drain Punch and lefties, it's probably not a 2HKO.

Yeah, but Scizor's hitting you back with 36.2% - 42.6% and priority, and even if he's low enough for you to consider taking on, you're probably going to be too low on HP to do anything else. I usually just switch out unless I'm at +2 Def.

(thank you :D).

No problem. ;) This is a set I actually use every now and then and I would love to see it on the main site. More players need to know about this untamed beast.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"drain punching the shit out of everything" is a terrible playstyle. Drain Punch only has 8 PP, and this takes into account that it's your only form of recovery, which means that you *must* use it before you're fully set up. There's also the issue that PP also goes away whenever your opponent switches to Rotom-A and Gengar (both top 10) and trounces you (got that SE shadow ball too, gotta watch for that).

Beyond that, you don't deal nearly enough to Skarm, which either PHazes you or Brave Birds the shit out of you. Zapdos can just lolpressurestall your Drain Punches while hitting you with Thunderbolts (which you can't recover against for obvious reasons). Gyarados also totally has your number, since it has Intimidate and has enough power to still hurt like hell after a BU or 2. You'll get worn down by Celebi, since again, it can just Grass Knot or Psychic to wear you down while your recovery is ~dick due to Drain Punch sucking and you not having any solid attacks against it. Starmie does the same. Metagross is hit neutral by Drain Punch and still plows straight through. Same with Suicune, except this time Pressure comes into play, and you can't BU against it, because it'll just CM against your BUs and then destroy you with Surf. I could go on, but even against things it "should" beat, it can't even come close. If I had to use a BU Gallade, I "might" be tempted to use BU / Wish / Low Kick / Stone Edge and just try to bait Rotom-A and Gengar.

Also, "switch-in opportunities"? You can't take repeated hits since your recovery is nonexistent, and you aren't at all durable on the physical side before a BU.

 

[Hatman]

A switch in opportunity would be something like tyranitar, something weak to fighting and/or psychic moves.

And you can't forget about steadfast. If you accidentaly get flinched, you get +1 speed.

 

[Zystral]

how do you accidentally get flinched?
It's worth noting that if you get paralyzed or if it has a Scarf, Togekiss will outspeed even at +1, since you aren't running any Speed EVs. Air Slash then 2-HKOes (51.8% - 61.8%).

Also your switch-in opportunities ARE limited. Tyranitar is one of the few things who will switch out of you, but anything else, especially the fight/psychic weaks you claim have options against you.
Heracross Megahorns, Gengar Shadow Balls, Breloom is going to Spore (and outspeed since again, no EVs), etc.
In fact, even Weavile's Night Slash 2HKOes you if you switch into it.

This is nearly impossible to set up, extremely difficult to keep going, I do not see it working without great support.

 

[Hatman]

I said accidentaly flinched, I dunno, with like a Waterfall or something.