Game of Thrones [thronies rejoice! XD]

[Salt]

A female character stops being a perfect sexy benevolent breaker of chains, comes up against difficulty that portrays negative character traits that can form an actual character arc, and suddenly she's a bitch. And people say the show is sexist.

What character arc? She literally stopped her initial goal dead and is now sitting in one city literally sending out an army to kill those who she doesn't like. She said it best: "They can live in my new world or die in their old one." She's not actually thinking about getting around these difficulties. The only thing on her mind is "kill kill kill".

Accusing me of being sexist because I don't like how a character is developing is a bit ignorant too.

 

[vonFiedler]

What character arc?

Well usually they don't resolve in a single episode. This is where foresight comes into play.

Accusing me of being sexist because I don't like how a character is developing is a bit ignorant too.

all it did was really highlight how much of a hypocritical bitch she's becoming.

No, I doubt that. This attitude is all too common.

I mean christ, they are slavemasters. What do you want her to do? Run over to Westeros, kill everyone there?

 

[Layell]

Without having watched the latest ep, but having read the books.

Yeah guess what, Dany is staying in Meeren, and her ultimate goal to reclaim Westeros has been put on hold because of the more immediate goal of 'ending slavery' and 'learning to be a good ruler' are kind of important. The show has already brought up the fact that the daughter of a mad king, with three dragons, and an army of (former) slave soldiers getting the crown back may not be the wisest decision to make. You are right Salt she is seeking retribution through violence, that is what she knows. Her family motto is 'Fire and Blood'. She feels a great sense of injustice and wants to correct it with 'JUSTIISSSS'. She is realizing that her great liberation plans didn't work, Hizdar was a wake-up call with her treatment to the masters.

What everyone sees in the upcoming Dany eps will prove her worth as a leader.

 

[Ditto]

Personally, I have always thought that Daeny was a selfish character to begin with. To her knowledge, she can't have any more children (something book readers are consistently reminded of) and yet she still wants to conquer the Iron Throne. When she dies, she will have no heir and send the realm into another chaotic war. Whether or not the curse is lifted doesn't matter because to her knowledge she can't have children. I do like her character, especially since she's younger in the books and has to make some very hard decisions while still trying to figure herself out. This is just showing how she isn't perfect and is stilling learning what to do with all her power. GRRM writes women like he writes men, as people. No one in the series is black and white, not even Joffrey. I think with all the Daeny love, there's needs to be some points where you question her and don't root for her.

 

[vonFiedler]

No, no, Layell. 'JOOOSTIISSSS'

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Yeah, the use of the word "bitch" is way off base.

Dany's current story arc is showing how young and inexperienced she is, with many parallels to Robb's storyline. Robb was charismatic and a great fighter, but didn't know how to manage an army or to make good decisions and reaped the consequences. Dany is a year younger than Robb and is doing just as poor of a job of everything, pursuing an oversimplified and naive ideal of what she believes to be just.

 

[Salt]

Alright, I edited my post even though the damage is done. I apologize for using such language.

That said, I still can't see how her actions thus far can be justified. Jebus, her inexperience doesn't really parallel with Robb's because she has two very knowledgeable advisors who she's been completely ignoring until the latest episode, and the consequences of her actions have been much more heinous in hindsight. Even when she did listen, she only changed the order from killing all the masters to either forcing them under her rule or killing them. Robb still won and lost battles and was legitimately learning in his field; what killed him was promising to marry Walder Frey's daughter then not doing it, and Tywin just happened to notice that Robb going to the wedding was the perfect opportunity to catch him off guard and kill him. The circumstances for Robb were just extremely unfavorable, and it had nothing to do with his mistakes in the war. As someone who has not read the books, I do not see much potential for character development in Dany with what we have because she's pretty deeply rooted in her juvenile ideals. There also isn't someone who she's heinously offended enough to be driven to kill her like with Robb; the closest person that could have done that was Daario but worries of that absolved when she let him go kill the masters for her, so there's not any potential for her to feel the consequences that Robb did.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

That said, I still can't see how her actions thus far can be justified. Jebus, her inexperience doesn't really parallel with Robb's because she has two very knowledgeable advisors who she's been completely ignoring until the latest episode, and the consequences of her actions have been much more heinous in hindsight. Even when she did listen, she only changed the order from killing all the masters to either forcing them under her rule or killing them. Robb still won and lost battles and was legitimately learning in his field; what killed him was promising to marry Walder Frey's daughter then not doing it, and Tywin just happened to notice that Robb going to the wedding was the perfect opportunity to catch him off guard and kill him. The circumstances for Robb were just extremely unfavorable, and it had nothing to do with his mistakes in the war. As someone who has not read the books, I do not see much potential for character development in Dany with what we have because she's pretty deeply rooted in her juvenile ideals. There also isn't someone who she's heinously offended enough to be driven to kill her like with Robb; the closest person that could have done that was Daario but worries of that absolved when she let him go kill the masters for her, so there's not any potential for her to feel the consequences that Robb did.

Robb had counsel from Catelyn and numerous others (though Cat was obviously his first and foremost "voice of reason") whose advice he still opted to ignore, much like what Dany has been doing with most of her council, aside from Jorah's small victory today. And on the contrary, I see plenty of people who have motive to kill Dany, considering the amount of murder she's ordered lately coupled with Tywin and the others growing uneasy over in Westeros. I haven't read the books either, so I suppose we'll find out eventually.

 

[UncleSam]

Indiscriminately murdering hundreds/thousands for the crimes of the society to which they belong?

Ya I'll call Dany a bitch and I really don't give a shit who thinks it is 'sexist' because the fact is she is basically a one-woman embodiment of the French Revolution. There are a ton of parallels to Robb's storyline with the only difference being that Robb did not deserve what happened to him (though he perhaps 'earned it') while Dany would thoroughly deserve similar treatment (which in this show means that it 100% will not happen).

Anyway all I really want is for Arya to kill everyone and rule over Westeros with Littlefinger as her gimp (make it happen GRRM)

 

[vonFiedler]

And how will you feel about Arya when she stops being your waifu and does things unforgivable in her pursuit for revenge?

 

[UncleSam]

It's way different for someone to murder people personally than it is to order thousands of slave soldiers to do it for them, especially when every person she has killed has had it coming to them (and most have had it coming to them from her specifically)

 

[vonFiedler]

What happens when Arya becomes an analog for some piece of history for you to be butthurt about, instead of using the fiction to reflect on said history?

especially when every person she has killed has had it coming to them (and most have had it coming to them from her specifically)

Ok, you totally missed the implication. What happens when she has to kill someone who didn't have it coming, or multiple of them, to kill those who do? Not saying it has happened as a book reader, but what series do you think you're watching? No one is gonna be your waifu forever.

 

[UncleSam]

If Arya kills people who don't deserve it she will still at least be killing individuals personally (ie means she realizes exactly what she is doing and is living with the consequences), which to me is infinitely better than ordering people who are basically your own slaves to go kill others in the name of abolishing slavery by the hundreds of thousands, many of whom do not deserve it. It's the difference between being a vigilante and being a hypocritical genocidal dictator.

 

[shade]

hahahaha did someone genuinely get called sexist for calling dany a bitch?

get your head out of your arse son, the mother of dragons doesn't need anymore white knights shes already got jorah

 

[vonFiedler]

Fictional male characters have it bad enough when it comes to being rounded and having negative character traits and arcs, we live in a wish fulfillment society where the expectations of storytelling have fallen to fanfiction levels. But when a female character isn't perfect for more than an episode, the word bitch comes out. Always. Any character. Any show. I don't have a problem with the word bitch, it's the attitude. And if your first instinct when being called out on it is that I must be a white knight, I'm surprised you could even read my posts with all the rectum between your eyes and the screen.

 

[shade]

i think dany is a bitch, i think littlefinger is a dickhead

its all the same to me

 

[Layell]

While no new ep this weekend lets talk casting, some slight spoilers for next season: http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/23/characters-confirmed-game-thrones-season-5-new-details/

book spoilers

Hmm Aero as a black guy that will work, lack of Ser Arys is troublesome, as is the lack of Darkstar. Something tells me they are seriously cutting down the Dorne plot, Arianne and Quentyn are nowhere to be seen here as well which is, concerning. I swear if they replace Arianne with a Sand Snake and cutting a named POV then we have some seriously problems later on.

also WTF casting Maggy hrmmmmmm

 

[vonFiedler]

same

I'm sorry, the Dorne plot sucks anyway. The one thing I really hated about the later books was the use of "named POV" characters that only got 1-3 chapters.

 

[Layell]

If you honestly think that then perhaps you should read this:

more book spoilers

http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com...blood-oranges-part-i-the-viper-and-the-grass/

I'm not saying the arc could not have been improved but as a whole, but when all the characters actions are put together it's very interesting. I've started doing a combined reading of AFFC + ADWD and there are multiple fan suggested chapter orders. Should be interesting to see how it all works out.

 

[Danmire]

Holy shit.

I think this was worse than in the book. That was unnecessarily brutal to show. I don't recall other episodes showing this much gore (I may be wrong but it's years apart and I don't feel like searching for other scenes.)

 

[Stellar]

holy shit that was intense

 

[UncleSam]

What the fuck waste eight minutes on a beetles thing that never gets resolved and then THAT for a culminating fight so disappointed right now

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Spoilers in this post, obviously. Not bothering to hide tag because I'm too distraught right now.

What the fuck waste eight minutes on a beetles thing that never gets resolved and then THAT for a culminating fight so disappointed right now

I think the beetles were meant as a metaphor - you could interpret it several different ways. One is that the crushing of the beetles represents how Tyrion has gotten dicked for his entire life. He's looking for a reason why, he never found one, and he's not going to as long as he lives (however much longer that is after tonight). Another possibility is that it shows how men are born with the urge to kill no matter who they are. Plus it adds to Tyrion and Jaime's dynamic, and plays up the tension going into the climactic battle.

As for that, well, let me just say that I haven't been that disturbed by a character's death in... ever. This tops that one scene from Saving Private Ryan in terms of the trauma it delivered.

 

[UncleSam]

The slasher-level gore totally distracted from what ought to have been a powerful scene...if they had just left it to the imagination it could have been great but no, they had to resort to their absolute worst instincts yet again. Just like the twincest scene earlier in the season they go for trashy as a first response and completely miss an opportunity...I felt like I was watching Jason Vorhees gut some teenager caught spooning by the lake

Also Daenerys reached mega bitch status this episode fuck her so much

On the bright side I liked the turn with Sansa finally becoming a semi-formidable character...it's about damn time

 

[Jebus McAzn]

I felt the scene was pretty goddamn powerful; definitely the most impactful death in the series based solely on how many people absolutely adored Oberyn.

As for Sansa, I'd say she's been plenty formidable ever since she saw her father get beheaded by Ilyn Payne. Since season 2, she's been one of the strongest characters in the show! Who else has had it as bad as her and has suffered as much as her, yet has had as much determination to stay alive? She's being more direct about it now, but the last three seasons have made her strong and clever.

And as for Dany, what do you expect? She's trusted Jorah for months at this point and considers him one of her closest friends, and now finds out that from the moment they met, he was deceiving her and continued to do so the entire way. Even if he swapped sides, that's still a heavy betrayal to deal with, and Dany acted accordingly. Not to rehash old arguments, but is Dany a "mega bitch" in this case out of virtue of being a woman, and because she's been "friendzoning" Jorah? Would she be viewed in as negative of a way if Jorah had not loved her, or simply if he had not told her he loved her tonight? What if it were Talisa or Jeyne Westerling who was spying on Robb Stark the entire time, and was sent away after Robb found out? I'd venture that most people would be quick to defend him for his actions, not condemn him.