1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Garbodor (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Oglemi, Aug 17, 2012.

  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi QUOTE DATABASE SLAYER, TIK SLAYER, going down the list
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    C&C Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,241
    Garbodor
    [​IMG]

    Written by Flashrider, pushed through GP


    [Overview]

    <p>Garbodor is the Trash Bag Pokemon, and at first glance most people assume that it IS trash. It has a small support movepool, and most of its viable offensive movepool is based around its horrible Special Attack stat. Additionally, Poison is often not a good typing to have with all the Psychic-types roaming around NU, especially Musharna. For those who look closer, however, Garbodor turns from one person's trash into another's treasure. For example, its Poison typing, while leaving it weak to Psychic, works well with its good bulk by allowing it to check common Fighting-types, such as Sawk. Furthermore, its support movepool includes Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and its access to Clear Smog allows it to counter stat-boosters. Finally, it isn't a sitting duck, as it possesses a nice base 95 Attack stat, allowing it to hit hard with its STAB Gunk Shot. If you use it right, Garbodor can turn out to be a nice addition to your team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive Spikes
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Drain Punch / Toxic Spikes
    move 3: Gunk Shot / Rock Blast
    move 4: Clear Smog / Giga Drain
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Aftermath
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With access to Spikes, a decent defensive typing, and good bulk, Garbodor makes a great supporter for its teammates. Spikes is essential, as it allows Garbodor's teammates to sweep weakened opponents. Drain Punch is a useful move in general to provide semi-reliable recovery while also threatening opponents such as Probopass, who would otherwise set up all over Garbodor. Gunk Shot allows Garbodor to hit hard off of its good base 95 Attack stat, preventing the likes of Exeggutor from switching in at will. Finally, Clear Smog counters stat-boosting foes, such as Bulk Up Gurdurr, who would otherwise be able to threaten Garbodor and its teammates after several boosts.</p>

    <p>There are a couple of other options for Garbodor. Toxic Spikes can be used over Drain Punch to provide another entry hazard, but with all the Poison-types running around NU, this is usually an inferior option. Likewise, Rock Blast can be used to deal with Substitute users, such as Haunter, but is otherwise less useful than STAB Gunk Shot. Finally, Giga Drain can threaten Golem and Seismitoad, who would otherwise beat Garbodor, but the loss of Clear Smog can be painful when dealing with stat-boosters.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs maximize Garbodor's HP, while 16 Speed EVs allow Garbodor to outspeed maximum Speed Golem. The rest is dumped into Defense, hitting an EV jump point. A specially defensive spread—shifting the EVs from Defense to Special Defense—lets Garbodor better tank hits from special attackers like Choice Specs Exeggutor and Seismitoad, but note that this lowers Garbodor's ability to wall Fighting-type Pokemon. Haze can be used over Clear Smog to deal with stat-boosters that either possess a Steel typing, such as Klang, or hide behind Substitutes such as some Calm Mind Misdreavus. However, this is not recommended as it is illegal with Spikes, access to which is Garbodor's main niche in NU. Pain Split is another option for recovery and allows it to heal off of high HP walls like Lickilicky.</p>

    <p>Unfortunately, Garbodor has quite a number of problems in NU. Bulky Psychic- and Ground-type Pokemon, such as Musharna and Seismitoad, can threaten Garbodor with STAB attacks or set up as it switches out. Exeggutor can switch into anything bar Gunk Shot and threaten to OHKO with STAB Psychic, while Probopass can switch into any set that lacks Drain Punch and proceed to set up entry hazards, paralyze Garbodor, or threaten it with STAB Earth Power. Additionally, Garbodor fears Rapid Spin users, such as Armaldo, that can tank its hits and remove entry hazards. Dark-types, such as Absol and Skuntank, are great teammates as they can trap Psychic-types by threatening with STAB Pursuit. Furthermore, spinblockers, such as Golurk and Misdreavus, help out a ton by preventing the removal of entry hazards, while also maintaining offensive presence and utilizing Spikes to take down weakened enemies.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Spikes
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Toxic Spikes / Drain Punch
    move 3: Gunk Shot
    move 4: Seed Bomb
    item: Air Balloon / Leftovers
    ability: Aftermath
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While the previous set concentrates on Garbodor's utility value and bulk, this set focuses more on Garbodor's offensive potential and base 95 Attack stat. Spikes is once again the entry hazard of choice, allowing Garbodor's teammates to take advantage of weakened opponents. Toxic Spikes is also used on this set as it can cripple Pokemon like Alomomola, while also luring in Poison-types for a teammate, such as Musharna, to switch in on. However, Drain Punch can be used if Pokemon like Probopass are problematic. Gunk Shot is Garbodor's STAB move and hits Grass-types, such as Exeggutor, hard, while also having a slight chance to cause poison. Finally, Seed Bomb dents Ground-types, such as Seismitoad and Golem, who would otherwise cause problems for Garbodor.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs maximize power and Speed, allowing Garbodor to set up hazards more quickly while maintaining offensive presence. The choice between Air Balloon and Leftovers is up to personal preference between Air Balloon's temporary immunity to hazards and Ground-type moves and Leftovers' constant recovery. An alternate option is to use a combination of Focus Sash and Weak Armor to boost Garbodor's Speed; however, this is usually suited for teams that can afford the loss of Garbodor in exchange for a quick couple layers of Spikes. Another option is to choose between natures. If you want Garbodor to be able to 2HKO Golurk with Seed Bomb, then Adamant is the best option; however, Jolly allows Garbodor to outspeed and OHKO Absol with Drain Punch, though it'll still be able to nail Garbodor with Sucker Punch.</p>

    <p>Offensive teams will appreciate this set more than balanced teams will, so Pokemon like Zangoose and Cinccino are great options for teammates. Additionally, Pokemon that get rid of Psychic-types, such as Skuntank, are also good teammates for Garbodor.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>With Rain Dance or Sunny Day, Garbodor can set up both weather and entry hazards, and fit onto weather teams effectively. Pain Split is another option, as it provides a semi-stable recovery option that also weakens the opponent. Haze is also a possibility, as it is a better version of Clear Smog that hits Steel-types and bypasses Substitutes. However, it is illegal with Spikes, which is Garbodor's main niche in NU, and is hence an inferior choice. Curse is an option for boosting Garbodor's Attack and Defense, but Garbodor's weakness to Psychic-types, who can threaten its unboosted Special Defense, hinders such a set's effectiveness. Stockpile is another way to boost Garbodor's defenses, but Stockpile is an inferior option as it can only boost to three levels. A specially attacking set is theoretically possible, but Garbodor's horrible Special Attack stat discourages this idea.</p>

    <p>A special mention goes to a Life Orb attacking set with Gunk Shot, Seed Bomb, Drain Punch, and Rock Polish. Rock Polish allows Garbodor to outspeed many major threats, such as Choice Scarf Zebstrika and Sawk, and threaten some of its usual counters. Additionally, Garbodor's surprisingly good coverage, along with a Life Orb boost and its solid Attack stat, allows it to hit a number of threats, such as Probopass, while its bulk allows it to survive hits. However, note that Garbodor's Attack stat, while good, is usually not enough to sweep an opponent. In addition, Garbodor is usually more useful as a supporter than as an attacking threat. Use the offensive set at your own risk.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Despite Garbodor's good power and bulk, there are a number of Pokemon that can deal with it easily. Bulky Psychic- and Ground-types threaten Garbodor, as they can threaten to take it out before it has fully set up Spikes. Additionally, powerful special attackers can blast Garbodor hard, as it is almost always uninvested in Special Defense. Musharna is very bulky and has Heal Bell to get rid of poison, while Duosion is immune to poison; both can set up in Garbodor's face with Calm Mind. Exeggutor also threatens Garbodor, although it must beware of taking a STAB Gunk Shot to the face.</p>

    <p>Probopass can easily switch into any Garbodor lacking Drain Punch, set up entry hazards, and either cripple Garbodor with Thunder Wave or KO it with Earth Power. Rotom-S is immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes and can cripple Garbodor with Trick, while Rampardos can hit Garbodor hard with STAB Head Smash or Earthquake while not worrying too much about entry hazards.</p>
  2. col49

    col49
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    1,118
    Okie, so since I use Garbodor, like, all the time, I'd really like to see some changes implemented here. First of all, please, pleasepleaseplease, drop Toxic Spikes into AC. Poison-types are on basically every team, making TSpikes basically a dud slot in most of your matches, and that really sucks for him. Imo, the set should look something like this:
    [SET]
    name: Spikes
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Clear Smog
    move 3: Gunk Shot / Rock Blast
    move 4: Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Aftermath
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

    Clear Smog and Spikes are basically mandatory, Spikes being the reason to use Garbodor and Clear Smog being necessary to letting him set up on Fighting-types like Gurdurr, Throh, and such. Gunk Shot is obviously for a good solid STAB, though Rock Blast's ability to break Substitute is fairly useful for hitting Sub-Disable Haunter before switching out and the rare Butterfree, as well as hitting Armaldo for decent damage. I know it sounds trivial, but you're very rarely using attacking options anywho, so nbd really. Pain Split, while being awful recovery on a defensive 'mon (which should be mentioned in the writing of the analysis!), is still recovery, and helps switch repeatedly in stuff like CB Sawk or whatever, who still takes a decent 30-35% chunk out of you with CC. Leftovers>Black Sludge (maybe it's just me?), 'cuz Trick users just Trick back onto something that will in turn take damage from it, so unless you run a mono-Poison team or something Lefties is more consistent. 20 EVs actually beat Golem by 2 points, and is thus considered Speed creep, which analyses don't encourage, so I just dropped that down for ya :P

    With that in mind, move Drain Punch to AC, it's still decent recovery and it hits Probopass for good damage if your team needs to hit it badly, but usually it's rather middling (not like his other attacking options aren't). I'd also mention Haze for clearing boosts through Substitute (I can't name some particularly good Sub+Boost pokes off my head as an example of usefullness, Sub+CM Serp or something?), Toxic (good for crippling general switch-in's) and Toxic Spikes (they're still bad, but if your team can really pressure grounded Poison-types then it can work well) in AC. Also mention a specially defensive spread, which is fair in that it trades it's ability to set up on Grass-types not named Torterra / Exeggutor no problem for Fighting- and (I guess) Bug-types. Shed Shell might deserve a quick mention too with Gothitelle becoming popular (stress Wish support with it's use!). Elaborate on the partners a bit, what make them good partners for Garbodor? I'd also mention spin-blockers as partners, just because some teams still run spinners, and losing your Spikes is just terrible.

    Don't mention Amoongus in C&C, he's basically free Spikes post-Sleep fodder. Also Bastiodon is much, much less common than Probopass, and those I see certainly don't have Taunt, so I'd probably replace his mention with Probopass. I'd give mentions to bulkiy Psychic / Ground-types, who switch in pretty freely, and threaten with their STAB. From there you could mention Gothitelle in particular.

    That's all I got, though I might've missed some stuff .-.
  3. Wobble

    Wobble

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    [SET]
    name: Suicide Spiker
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Explosion
    move 3: Rock Blast
    move 4: Toxic Spikes / Gunk Shot
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Weak Armor
    evs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 190 Spe



    Suicide Spiker anyone? There was a whole thread on it just a while back that passed QC.

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468331
  4. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Will make changes when my computer's back up, since you can't really edit from a phone...-_-.

    @col49: I agree with you on everything EXCEPT the Bastiodon thing. It might be just me, but I've seen a good number of them recently, and they all had Taunt. It honestly confused and still confuses me...Will make that change anyway. Thanks for your input!

    @Wobble: Whoops! Gotta add that when I can. Thanks!

    While I'm waiting for my computer to get un-broken, feel free to make some comments based off of the first two!
  5. FLCL

    FLCL
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Salon Maidenis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,372
    Rock Blast isn't as good anymore with Cryogonal gone, but it still has the ability to hit Armaldo for some decent damage. Seed Bomb can be useful even on the defensive set in order to hit Golem, Carracosta, and other common switch-ins for really good damage. Garbodor suffers heavily from 4MSS, but I think it could be slashed beside Clear Smog, although Gothitelle will set up all over you now.

    Drain Punch should be before Toxic Spikes due to the popularity of Amoonguss, Skuntank, Zangoose, and other Garbodor.

    Garbodor only needs 16 EV's to outrun Golem; analyses discourage speed creeping.

    Also, Amoonguss can't really be considered as a counter since it can't touch you at all outside of Spore and you can set up Spikes all over it.
  6. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    I'll change the EVs as soon as possible when I can. I still think Rock Blast has some merit to blast Armaldo, so I'll keep it on there. I'll also make Drain Punch first too, since I've seen people switch in Probopass against Garbodor. Plus, Seed Bomb has been shown to be effective, so it will be included.

    On a side note, I will most likely have my computer back tonight, so I'll make sure to have the edits in as soon as possible. I'm keeping track of the edits I have to make.

    So in general, here's what the first set will be like.

    Garbodor@black Sludge
    Aftermath
    Impish Nature
    252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    -Spikes
    -Drain Punch / Toxic Spikes
    -Clear Smog / Seed Bomb
    -Gunk Shot / Rock Blast

    Acceptable?
  7. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,365
    It's separate because someone else is writing it up, separately. Don't add it to this.

    I'll give this a look-over sometime later.
  8. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    MAde some changes, fleshed stuff out and added stuff to AC (like Pain Split), C&C, and the set. If more changes need to be added, please tell me.
  9. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,686
    • I disagree with Toxic Spikes getting a slash right now, they are really bad in this meta. Amoonguss #1, Zangoose doesn't care for them. I don't see a real reason to use them right now, so I think Drain Punch should be the only option there.
    • Giga Drain also needs a big mention, since without attack investment it will hit the main targets harder, such as Golem and Carracosta. The difference in damage isnt huge, but it gives Garbodor some form of recovery. I'd support Giga Drain being the secondary slash and Seed Bomb being moved to AC, as even with a -SpA nature it is still hitting the aforementioned threats harder.

    • Also, I'd really expand on the teammates, since a lot of stuff loves Spikes support. Potential teammates: Swellow, Braviary, Zangoose, Cinccino, Emboar, Sawk, Klang, Samurott. I wouldn't mention all of these, mention Swellow, Zangoose, Cinccino and Klang specifically though in my opinion.

    • In OO I think you mean Clear Smog and not Haze. Since Gunk Shot and Haze aren't even relatable.

    • Honestly I think that Haze is more valuable than Clear Smog on Garbodor, since the amount of Pokemon that run a set-up move and Taunt are basically 0(Taunt + Bulk Up Vigoroth gg meta). and Haze allows you to stop Klang from setting up. So it at least has a little bit more viability.

    • I'd also expand on c&c quite a bit, add stuff like Rampardos and other things that don't really care about it. Like most Special-attackers.

    • I'm not exactly sure what's happening with the Offensive Spikes set, since MMF has made a set that was approved. So before this is fully approved we'll need to decide a plan of action for that.
  10. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Made most of the changes. However, I left Haze in AC, since it's illegal with Spikes, and frankly, Spikes is Garbodor's niche in NU. Also, I was wondering about the Offensive Spikes set. I'll leave it to you QCers. In the meantime, if anyone else has any more comments, feel free to share! Thanks in advance for your input!
  11. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,365
    As far as the offensive Spikes set, I've talked to MMF and a few QC members and he's ok with letting you write it up. However, I'm thinking that a few changes should be addressed, and some debatable stuff too. I'm not sure how fond I am of the actual 'suicide' aspect; while Weak Armor + Spikes is a cool niche, it's really a very niche set for offensive teams that don't mind being down 5-6 for a single layer of Spikes, maybe two (keep in mind that fast special attackers that can 2HKO will allow it to only lay one set of Spikes). In general, I'd prefer something that can set up a few layers and take advantage of its bulk + decent attacking stats / speed rather than just try to get up a few layers before dying. I'm thinking something along the lines of this, with the Focus Sash + alternate EV Spread + Weak Armor in either AC or OO. (It might have another set all to itself, but I'd like to have input from the other QC members before that happens.)

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Spiker
    move 1: Spikes
    move 2: Toxic Spikes / Drain Punch
    move 3: Gunk Shot
    move 4: Seed Bomb
    item: Air Balloon / Leftovers
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    ability: Aftermath
    evs: ~ HP / 252 Atk / ~ Spe

    Jolly for outspeeding Absol; it has a guaranteed OHKO with Drain Punch after SR / Spikes. Adamant allows you to 2HKO Golurk more reliably with Seed Bomb. It can set up Spikes / Toxic Spikes against everything that would tank its attacks (Regirock / Amoonguss / Alomomola etc). Not sure what the Speed benchmark should be for the Adamant / Jolly spreads, so idk. Right now I'm just thinking 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe should be ok, unless there's some specific stuff that's needed.
  12. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    One question before I put the offensive Spikes set up: Should it have Toxic Spikes on it, or will Drain Punch be the primary, if not only, option for the second move slot? Just wanting some clarification...
  13. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,705
    Why is Toxic Spikes not on the defensive set? Toxic Spikes is still fantastic... just because Amoonguss is #1 doesn't mean it sucks. Guess what: Amoonguss has 4 easily abusable weaknesses. With offensive pressure, you can make sure Amoonguss doesn't switch-in safely. There's a lot of Pokemon that can abuse Amoonguss: most Substitute users, Braviary, Emboar, etc.

    Agreeing that there should be a defensive and offensive Spike set. Rocky Helmet should go in AC of the offensive Spike set. Also, put Protect in the last slot of the defensive Spike set, it's nice for recovery and scouting choiced users. I usually use Protect on Garbodor if I use a stall team with it.
  14. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Added Toxic Spikes as a secondary slash on the main set, as well as added the Offensive Spikes set. If there is any more stuff to put on here, feel free to put it on. I'm glad that I'm getting a lot of input on this update!
  15. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Bumping. Sorry for sounding impatient, but I will be busy in about a week, and I would love to have this finished by then. If that's all right with you guys....

    EDIT: Thanks, Zebraiken!
  16. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,365
    I'm okay with this as it is.

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  17. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2010
    Messages:
    538
    Yep Yep

    QC Approved 2/3
  18. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Thanks, guys! One more to go!
  19. Django

    Django
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,819
    OK this is alright with me now

    QC APPROVE 3/3
  20. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Thanks! I'll start writing this up. I should have it done by tomorrow.
  21. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Sorry for double posting, but this is ready for GP Checks!

    Also, if you're wondering why I gave a special mention to an offensive set, it's because I have seen it used effectively, and it would be a shame to not mention it with Garbodor's bulk and Attack stat.
  22. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Sorry for sounding a bit rude, but this needs to be GP checked. I have a busy schedule coming up, so I need to get this done as soon as possible. Thanks.
  23. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,365
    You've already done the hard part. Implementing a GP check takes only a few minutes, even less so if they provide a c/p. GP will get to this analysis eventually.

    If you really feel that it needs to be done ASAP, you can go contact individual members (without pestering them, please!) and ask if they have the time to spare to check your analysis. Most of them don't go through all of the forums on a day-by-day basis.
  24. sirndpt

    sirndpt
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,124
    [gp]1/2[/gp]

    eta: also should the first set name be better as Defensive Spiker, to better differentiate it from the Offensive one?
  25. Flashrider57

    Flashrider57

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Messages:
    463
    Changes made! One more to go!

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)