Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Kevin Garrett, Aug 27, 2012.

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  1. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I found this to be a complete exaggeration. There are many checks to Garchomp now, and if you are still afraid, just use Weavile/Mamoswine. Seriously, who does this that you have spoke are overestimating Garchomp. In fact, before this test ladder, I've battled with some pseudo-OU teams that used Garchomp (and that's the only reason that their teams were labeled as Ubers) and I never had problems taking Garchomp down.

    That's what I am saying. Garchomp benefits sun teams that now have a member that doesn't compound their weakness to Stealth Rock and Water attacks. Sun teams tend to have a lot of checks to Mamoswine and Weavile. Thick Fat is negated by the sun wich means that Mamoswine's neutrality to Fire turns in a weakness. I can see Garchomp becoming a staple on many sun teams - I've always wanted to use a Dragon-type on my sun team but all Dragons either had a weakness to Stealth Rock or had secondary STABs that overlaped with something on my team. Garchomp has neither of these problems.

    The only problem is that Garchomp is forced to use Fire Blast off a base 80 Special Attack, or use Fire Fang, while despite being physical, is innacurate and weak. Not that you are forced to use a Fire-type attack on him, but I can see no reason why you would not if you can now 2HKO Specially Defensive Skarmory (and maybe physically defensive ones with sufficient Swords Dance boosts) and OHKO Ferrothorn.

    I tried to use Garchomp on my sand team, and then I realized that it's much better to use him on sun. Despite Garchomp not being weak to sandstorm damage and not compounding weakness, Garchomp doesn't do anything that Landorus can't already do.
  2. False Sense

    False Sense

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    @Superbadd Mediocre? Really? It has about the same qualities as other top dragons, if not better. Certainly it won't be as effective as it was back then, but I think calling it mediocre is a bit harsh.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    What are you guys thinking about a physically defensive Garchomp with RestTalk and EQ + D-Tail? It is more physically bulky than Jirachi is specially bulky, which says a lot, has very good speed for a wall, hits veeery hard for a wall, and has phazing + perfect coverage in 2 moves, and it also has a neat ability... Although the fact that many physical attackers use Ice or Dragon moves doesn't really help Garchomp.

    EDIT: Yeah i meant RestTalk, fixed it.
  4. DrunkDemon

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    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been using a physically defensive set, although I used Dragon Claw (this was only cause I didn't realize it got Dragon Tail until I read your post) and Stealth Rock + Protect instead of what I assume you mean to be RestTalk instead of just Sleep Talk. Since what I really like about Garchomp defensively is that it does great against VoltTurn, the fact that RestTalk can often lose you momentum makes it unappealing to me. I really do like the concept of it though.
  5. LucaroarkZ

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    I don't understand this logic. What you're basically saying here is "Well this is why it was banned in early DP, so it must be why it was banned in BW!". 102 base Speed is good, but in this Speed-obsessed metagame, certainly not amazing. In addition, Ice Shard is literally everywhere in the metagame even without Garchomp.

    Also, I'd just like to ask: How is Garchomp any more metagame dominant than, say, Terrakion? I've found that in all of my battles on the suspect ladder, my Terrakion does significantly more work than my Garchomp. SD Garchomp sweeps are much harder to pull off without Sand Veil, in addition to such a large number of things in this metagame being faster than it. Very rarely did I ever get the chance to pull off a Garchomp sweep, and when I did, I was forced into late-game sweeping because of the ubiquity of Ice Shard and threats faster than it. In addition, I fail to see how ScarfChomp is any better than Scarf Landorus. Without Sand Veil, Garchomp is just really easy to kill. As such, I believe its ban in early DP should not be used in an argument in BW2. BW2 is not DP and should not be treated as such.
  6. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    i think the ultimate point of the statement is that sand veil should not be banned just because it pushed garchomp over the edge, but rather that garchomp as a whole (including sand veil) was what was overpowered, and that by that logic sand veil ban is not a solution to the question of garchomp's legality, nor the question of sand veil's competitiveness or power

    not my opinion, just trying to clarify someone else's
  7. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    Went to the suspect ladder to test Garchomp, and I can really say that I don't think it is broken. I mainly used Scarf Garchomp in my matches (got #1 on ladder pretty easily), and it really didn't perform that much differently from other scarfers like Landorus. Albeit scarf isn't the only set, and they have different STAB's etc, but Garchomp really wasn't game breaking in any of my matches. I sort of view Rough Skin Garchomp as the new Landorus-I (as it was to the BW1 metagame), as it has a good speed that lets it check many boosters.

    Frankly without Sand Veil, Garchomp is hard pressed to effectively set up SubSD (in my experience vs it). I do believe Sand Veil was the main reason for its previous ban, and without it Garchomp is pretty mediocre (as a booster) and is pretty much as broken as most of the other dragons in our metagame. Also to all the people saying Sand Veil isn't broken, I would really just like to quote something BKC said,
    Of course this will rarely happen, but the premise is the same in that even though you may have Garchomp checks/counter (well in this case Gliscor), Sand Veil may allow them to dodge your guaranteed KO move, letting them then sweep your team. I really don't see how an ability that turns an absolute win into an absolute loss, and is entirely based on luck, shouldn't be banned.

    Anyways onto the actual Garchomp set discussion. I really see Choice Scarf as being his main set, as it lets him always outspeed some key players in the metagame (Genesect/Thundurus-t) and he can still hit really hard with his base 130 Attack. Sub Salac SD Garchomp is also a really cool set, letting you get a speed boost after a potential attack boost, essentially preparing you to wreck.

    edit: idk why my quote is being weird and won't format properly. Just ignore the random enter
  8. Bowl Cut

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    Chomp is by no means mediocre; just because it cannot hax its way to victory doesn't make it anything by a good Pokemon. Chomp is much bulkier than it looks, it's not 2HKO'd by many common things. Let's take a look at some Scizor (for example) vs Chomp calcs:

    96 Atk Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 28.49% - 33.52% (3-4 hits to KO)

    Standard Bulky SD Scizor (which is what I believe to be the most common Scizor set at the moment) with a higher attack investment doesn't even come close to 2HKOing. With an Iron Plate equipped, Bulky SD Scizor does:

    96 Atk Iron Plate Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 33.8% - 40.22% (3 hits to KO)

    Even with Stealth Rock and some Spikes support, it isn't enough to be 2HKO'd. The only Scizor that 2HKOs Chomp outright is CB, which does:

    252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 47.21% - 55.59% (2-3 hits to KO)

    Granted, that is enough to 2HKO with some prior residual damage, but we are forgetting something here: who in their right mind would switch a Chomp in on a Scizor, even U-turn does a considerable amount iirc.

    The "how fast and strong OU is right now" is an overstatement; Chomp can always run a Scarf set and beat many of its common checks, leaving it to only being stopped by physically bulky Pokemon such as Skarmory, or strong priority users such as Scizor and Mamoswine. Hell, Chomp can even run the damage-halving berries to give it a fighting chance against it's checks. It does not have a hard time competing, in fact, Chomp was always on the top 10 most used Pokemon in BW OU before it was banished to Ubers.

    Chomp fits in Sand teams mainly because of how it deals against Sun teams. Think about it, most Sun teams have nothing to switch into a strong Ground move, and STAB EQ coming from 359/394 (or higher if CB) Attack is just what Chomp needs to laugh at most Sun teams. It's not the fact that it doesn't add a Water resist or because there are stronger Pokemon to use, it's how useful Chomp is.

    Now that that is out of the way, I'm thinking Chomp in BW2 OU is going to be a nice change of pace. It's so flexible it fits in practically any team or any weather. It's also going to pose a huge threat on many Sun teams, to the point where maybe HP Ice Venusaur will be the standard, making Scizor, a valuable Garchomp partner, having a better chance at combating it. Having something anti-Sun is valuable to many weather teams, and even Sun teams themselves, since, ironically, fighting Sun with Sun is quite a challenge, at least in my opinion. Really, it's just what we need considering how difficult it is to fight Duggy Sun at the moment. I know I'm sounding like I hate Sun, but any competitive battler of a moderate skill level knows how much of a pain it can be to face it.
  9. Chou Toshio

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    I personally think that Sand Veil is far from the reason for banning Garchomp. Just in terms of stats / typing / movepool, it'd be hard to design a reasonable Pokemon with 600 BST more perfect than Garchomp. People seem to forget we're talking about Swampert/Heatran level defensive stats and fantastic offensive stats with near perfect coverage on 2 of the best offensive types and only 2 weaknesses; don't forget its speed + immunity to Thunder Wave, and resistance to SR.

    Garchomp doesn't need Sand Veil at all to be Garchomp.

    I do think though that the metagame in general is very anti-sand atm though, and this will make Garchomp's life a lot harder. Getting outsped by tons of crap (because Scarf is everywhere... literally everywhere...), and STAB Rain Water attacks and HP Ice (and other Ice moves) EVERYWHERE before Chomp's even in the picture make it not so good for Garchomp.

    I will guess that the metagame of BW2 will be a much bigger factor in taming the beast than what ability it has...

    On another note, Defensive Chomp now gets Sleep Talk and SR... very cool...

    Predictions:

    1) Everyone will start by saying "it's not broken at all."

    2) Choice Scarf will be the dominant set.

    3) Garchomp blends into the OU metagame, and falls off people's radar in terms of brokenness.

    4) Some form of deceptively powerful SD set will rise up

    5) People will start getting frustrated at getting swept by SD Garchomp repeatedly; For a number of situations, it'll be a little too fast, or a little too bulky, or doesn't have enough weaknesses (and is fucking T-wave immune!) or they just don't have anything left that can stop +2 STAB Dragon / Ground coverage with 120 / 100 base power.

    6?) Garchomp gets banned


    Keep in mind, this prediction is just listing out exactly what happened pre-chomp-ban in both 4th gen and BW1.
  10. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
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    WIthout everyone abusing SubSD, I reckon YacheChomp would be pretty awesome in this metagame again. Pretty much the only things that can OHKO it without a Scarf are the Lati twins, and they would need Draco Meteor and some form of boosting item to do so (or Ice Punch Weavile, I guess, but he's kind of meh). I guess Cloyster can also win, but apart from that, YacheChomp WILL kill something on your team without much effort at all.
  11. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I honestly feel that Garchomp deserves a spot in OU. He has amazing stabs, and combined with decent speed that can out speed most dragons, he's a force to be reckoned with.

    However, Garchomp can't do anything to Mamoswine or Weavile. Weavile out speeds him anyway (bar the Scarf), and even if he is scarfed can OHKO it with Ice Shard. Same goes with Mamoswine, as long as it's not locked into something else.

    Basically, we are going to be seeing a rise in usage for Weavile, Mamoswine, and possibly SubRoost Kyurem. If Kyurem can get a Sub off before Garchomp comes in, Garchomp is toast. Scarfed Kyurem could be used more as well to counter the YacheChomp better, but then again the danger of the scarfed Chomp is too risky.

    All in all, I think Chomp deserves a spot in OU, as Mamoswine is so common anyways, most team will already have a viable counter.
  12. Taylor

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    Mamoswine does not counter Garchomp. That's the same principle when referring to Excadrill and how one could slap Technician Breloom on their team to, for the word you should've used, "check" the threat.

    Everyone needs to take a step back to take a step forward. Choice Band Garchomp is what gathers many attention when discussion natural, raw power. The reason we've kept Choice Band Terrakion for so long is that you could "revenge kill" with assurity. They're offensively similar with their coverage and brute strength, and I sense a rise in players bolstering their squads with Steel/Ice-types and thus CBRak will favorably work well under many circumstances, especially in conjunction with Garchomp.

    The bottom line is, without Sand Veil, Garchomp is no longer perfectly flawless and is definititely managable. I am going to tell you now, that if Garchomp is banned because people assumed it would create diversity and open for offensive/defensive balanced and desired metagame, you're heavenly mistaken.

    I guarantee Excadrill is the unrecalled, savior of peace and equality for a better, more well-rounded metagame.
  13. EonX-

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    Most of my experience has come on a Sun team with Band Garchomp. While it did peak 2nd on the ladder (probably outside the top 5 or 10 now) I didn't find that Garchomp "won" me every match. Sure, the raw power was nice and the ability to absolutely smash physical walls was cool, but I would say it really only won me 3 matches out of around 30 that I've won so far. I kind of almost expect most Garchomps to have a Yache Berry since SubSD can't rely on Sand Veil hax anymore and Life Orb kind of takes away the natural bulk Chompy has. The Scarf set is basically Landorus-I, only you can use it in all weathers effectively. Being forced to run Jolly in order to keep up in front of boosted Volcarona, Salamence, and Landorus-I does take some of the power away from the Scarf set.

    All that being said, each set has its own problem now. SubSD is hard to setup due to the fast pace of the metagame and it can't rely on Sand Veil hax to buy a free turn anymore. CB hits really hard, but is outsped by plenty of things. Scarf set is still good, but again, outsped by other Scarfers like Terrakion and Latios. Choice sets, especially the Scarf set is easily tanked by Skarmory and Hippowdon or checked by Landorus-T's Intimidate. Any set without a Yache Berry or Sub up is doomed when Mamo or Weavile come in. Defensive set is interesting, but I haven't tried it yet, so I won't comment on it.
  14. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
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    I've been testing Yache Chomp for a little while now, and I've had some success with it. I'd definitely agree that it doesn't seem overpowered, if anything, it seems like people on the Suspect Ladder are more than prepared for it, carrying their Bronzongs and Skarmorys and even things such as Slowbro. I really don't think Garchomp is as big of a threat in this metagame as say Terrakion, or any other hard hitting mon with a boosting move. Garchomp without Sand Veil is a whole different story to Sand Veil Chomp, it's a whole lot easier to deal with now that defensive walls do not have to worry about missing phazing moves or whatever. Not to mention Garchomp was banned in DPP where the metagame was a lot different. Thanks to BW's power creep, Garchomp is on a much more equal playing field, where there are still many other offensive behemoths to worry about, not just Garchomp.

    I think Yache Chomp has a cool niche in this metagame, Garchomp being faster than all other Dragons bar Latias / Latios means it doesn't have a lot to fear from opposing Dragons. It can revenge opposing slower Dragons while bluffing a Scarf / Band thanks to Yache, which is great when your opponent switches in their Heatran or Magnezone in on Garchomp, thinking you're locked into Dragon Claw.

    Agreeing with some of the other posters about bulky Garchomp too, if you run enough HP to reach 404, you can make 101 HP Subs and beat walls that only carry Night Shade or Seismic Toss. It's definitely an underrated set, as still pretty good as Garchomp doesn't really need to run max attack when you can boost with Swords Dance easily thanks to the good bulk, while very little actually wants to switch in to Garchomp fearing one of it's boosted STAB moves.
  15. X5Dragon

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    No offense but without sand veil it stands like this:

    1) Best Scarfers: Latios, MoxieMence
    2) Best Banders: Haxorus (x2 weakness to ice, atk stat much higher), Dragonite (MS)
    3) Bulky: Dragonite

    Garchomp is someone who can lie in between all these categories, but he isn't the best at any. Sorry, it had to be said.
  16. BKC

    BKC sorrow flew on black wings
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    Latios is a terrible Scarfer, it gets trapped way too easily by Tyranitar/Scizor. If I want a Scarfed Dragon mon, I'd rather use MoxieMence and use Latios to bust holes with Specs Draco Meteor. Btw, you're forgetting that unlike any of those mons you mentioned, Garchomp can run a Swords Dance or Stealth Rock set.
  17. Danger Mouse

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    I don't know - the BW2 metagame has a lot of new threats that garchomp won't like facing. Keldeo and Landorus-T in particular are huge threats to chomp, and rain's popularity in general puts pressure on him. I see him being a top-tier threat, because at the end of the day, chomp is chomp, but I don't see him dominating the meta in the way he once did.

    ALL of OU's dragons have niches that they occupy:
    1) Scarfers: Moxiemence (latios is too easily revenge killed)
    2) Bander: Haxorus, Dragonite
    3) Bulky: Dragonite, Latias (SubCm)
    4) Wallbreaker: Hydreigon
    5) Booster: Garchomp (SD with that bulk and offensive presence!)
  18. Leader Fox

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    Latios is not a terrible Scarfer, even though Scizor/Ttar kills them off. Garchomp can run a Sword Dance set but its pretty much like Running Sword Dance with Haxorus except Garchomp has more Bulk. The Stealth Rock set IMO is a waste on a pure power Dragon but idk if its viable so i can't really say. I also think the Best Sweeper is either Haxorus or Dragonite as they both get one of the Best Boosting Moves in the game Dragon Dance, while Garchomp is stuck with 102 speed, allowing for it to be easily revenge killed by scarf or a faster poke in general.
  19. xJaiYT

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    Free Garchomp! I've been testing it out today.. and boy is it fun to play with. I personally used it on a rain team as a scarfed revenge killer (judge me.) It really did do work.

    Sandveil was just plain annoying.. atleast now (generic attacking move) will hit Garchomp without making you rage.

    Plus let's be fair rough skin is quite a decent ability.. evs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 120 SpD / 60 Spe SR set, why not.

    It's not something to take lightly but I think it can be dealt with and therefore I'd love to see it OU!
  20. Jukain

    Jukain literally jesus
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    I am interested in what those EVs do, could you explain them?

    I've played against Garchomp a bit more now (I have got to make a team with him and then I will post my results), and I'm finding that Sand Veil was not the factor that makes Garchomp so good. It has amazing stats and a movepool with all of the tools it needs to succeed at pretty much any role it wants. While many are saying it isn't amazing, I disagree immensely. It is nowhere near being an average Pokemon, and I'm sure that regardless of Sand Veil it will have a place in the top 10 and is perhaps the best physical attacker in the current metagame. On to the next thing, I'm looking forward to experimenting with the following set:

    Garchomp @ Leftovers
    Ability: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
    - Substitute
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Tail
    - Earthquake

    Garchomp is an excellent Stealth Rock setter due to its excellent Speed stat and bulk that allows it many opportunities to setup Stealth Rock. It forces switches against so many Pokemon and has a lot of switch-in opportunities. In addition, Garchomp has access to Dragon Tail, and with Substitute it can phaze out things like the Lati twins and Keldeo that attempt to check it. Earthquake is mainly there just as a reliable STAB.

    Checked the Speed EVs, they hit 255 Spe. That doesn't outspeed anything. What do the rest do? Perhaps you might want to go 80 Spe and outspeed max Spe Dragonite.
  21. yee

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    The thing that puts it over the edge for me that 20% evasion boost is too much for an ability is the way its used. Sub SD Gliscor and Chomp were far and away the most popular offensive sets for each pokemon and they both rely on it to work. The answer to the moral question of "is it too much" is yes- it's what the sets are built around with Substitute, sometimes even Roost in Gliscor's case so it can overcome HP Ice Bronzong after a while (it needs Sand Veil to do this). Same with Snow Cloak and Froslass (even Mamo sometimes). If it was an occassional secondary effect fine- but it's an actual strategy the set relies on.
  22. xJaiYT

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    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82455

    name: Chomp Tank
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Dragon Tail
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Protect
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Rough Skin
    evs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 120 SpD / 60 Spe

    ''The EVs are set first to outrun neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon, with the remaining EVs utilized to maximize Garchomp's durability''

    :) I'm not taking credit for it. Credit goes to whoever suggested it. Haha.
  23. Death Phenomeno

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    Would the old ChainChomp set work in this metagame?

    Also, how much damage can a max speed Emonga (base 103) deal to Garchomp with HP Ice (maybe even with an Ice Gem)?
  24. Jukain

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    Thanks, that looks excellent.

    I dug ChainChomp out of its old DP OU analysis for anyone who wants to see it:

    [SET]
    name: Chain Chomp
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Draco Meteor
    move 4: Fire Blast
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naughty
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    How well would it work? I imagine it would be pretty good, although I would give it a Naive nature instead of Naughty because Garchomp needs to capitalize on its Speed tier. Yeah, it looks pretty decent, I'll have to test it some. Another interesting set that I found when I went hunting through old analyses:

    Garchomp @ Salac Berry
    Ability: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
    IVs: 30 HP
    - Substitute
    - Swords Dance
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake

    SubSalac Chomp. Salac Berry is legal now, so I think this thing could have a shot. After Salac, Garchomp is one of the fastest Pokemon in OU, only outsped by faster Scarfers (there aren't that many) and Venusaur. As I was looking foward to testing ChainChomp, I'd like to try this thing out as well. Oh and the 30 HP IVs make Garchomp's HP divisible by 4 so that it only takes 3 Substitutes to activate Salac Berry. This is basically just a variant of SubSD.

    EDIT2:
    252 SpA Emolga vs. 4/0 Garchomp: Hidden Power Ice: 248-292 (69.27 - 81.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA LO Emolga vs. 4/0 Garchomp: Hidden Power Ice: 322-380 (89.94 - 106.14%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Emolga vs. 4/0 Garchomp: Hidden Power Ice: 364-432 (101.67 - 120.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Ice Gem Emolga vs. 4/0 Garchomp: Hidden Power Ice: 364-432 (101.67 - 120.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    I guess Emolga can switch-in on Earthquake too. Those calcs are to answer your question. It needs an Ice Gem or Choice Specs to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. And I guess versus YacheChomp you might want as well:

    252 SpA Emolga vs. 4/0 YacheChomp: Hidden Power Ice: 124-146 (34.63 - 40.78%)
    252 SpA LO Emolga vs. 4/0 YacheChomp: Hidden Power Ice: 161-190 (44.97 - 53.07%)
    252 SpA Choice Specs Emolga vs. 4/0 YacheChomp: Hidden Power Ice: 182-216 (50.83 - 60.33%)
    252 SpA Ice Gem Emolga vs. 4/0 YacheChomp: Hidden Power Ice: 182-216 (50.83 - 60.33%)

    EDIT3: @below: I will move it to Attack then.
  25. Chou Toshio

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    Keep in mind the physical bulk for the set (DEF evs) were originally set to survives +2 Excadrill Earthquake, so that's no longer a relevant benchmark.

    Wow that thread/ev spread is nostalgic.
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